Updated September 9, 2010 at 10:15pm: The Toronto Sun cites Rob Ford’s “transit policy guru” Mark Towhey in a followup article to the Ford transit platform. Oddly enough, Towhey’s own blog post, an inaccurate rant about the TTC from February 2010, is still online even though Ford’s people disowned the article.
Toronto deserves an explanation of just what Rob Ford’s real agenda is, and to what extent it is driven by someone who has an even more radical view of what would happen to transit in this city than candidate Ford’s own official position.
The original post from September 8 at 4:00 pm follows here.
The Rob Ford mayoral campaign has released a transportation plan, and it’s a rather threadbare effort.
Ford’s subway plan involves redirecting Transit City funding to completion of the original Sheppard Subway plan from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre, and extension of the Danforth subway to STC via the SRT alignment. The Eglinton line has completely disappeared even though the money scooped to build Sheppard would have paid for the first stages of Eglinton’s construction.
As the Smitherman campaign has already pointed out, $790-million of the provincial $3.7-billion Ford counts on is earmarked for the Viva system in York Region. (See page 25 of the Metrolinx funding summary.) It is unclear why Queen’s Park would agree to such a massive shift in transit priorities, effectively turning the clock back to the 1990 transit network announcement rather than building the more extensive network already agreed to. [Note: As of 2 pm on September 9, Metrolinx has fouled up their website and the funding summary is not available. The link above is to the relevant pages copied to my own site.]
Notable by its absence from the Ford plan is any rapid transit service to northeastern Scarborough, the UTSC Campus or anywhere in Etobicoke, Ford’s home turf. Presumably everyone west of the Humber river won’t need transit. Nothing about downtown or the waterfront. Nothing about addressing priority neighbourhoods. Nothing about regional integration.
That SRT conversion has appeared in other candidates’ platforms, and it suffers from problems with assumptions about recycling the existing infrastructure and route. Kennedy Station faces east, and an alignment up the SRT corridor would require a new subway station. Although the Transit City LRT lines will result in construction at Kennedy, they wrap new LRT platforms around the existing structure while leaving the subway itself intact. Further north on the SRT there are narrow sections, a tight curve at Ellesmere, and stations that were not designed for full subway service.
Yes, this could all be rebuilt, but the line would never go further because the cost versus demand numbers simply wouldn’t work out. That’s the whole reason for using LRT, but Ford’s folks don’t seem to understand this.
Ford really doesn’t like streetcars in any form, and trots out the expected complaints about how construction fouls up businesses, how streetcars delay traffic and thereby create more pollution. Indeed, he would shut down our streetcar network and sell our new cars elsewhere to recoup whatever money could be had. The platform material says Ford would remove “some streetcars”, but according to a media source, Ford wants to get rid of all streetcars in 10 years.
Oddly enough, they would be replaced by even more buses that would sit in the same traffic jams behind delivery trucks, illegally parked cars, taxis, J-walking pedestrians, and a whole range of problems common to congested 4-lane roads that cannot simultaneously be speedy arterials and local streets. Buses pulling into stops on narrow streets with parking regularly block through traffic because they can’t properly reach the curb. Bus bays are not an option because there are usually buildings right at the sidewalk.
The larger omission from Ford’s plan is any discussion of fares, service quality or what transit should be as part of the city’s fabric. He condemns much of the city to buses running in mixed traffic, and says nothing about how he would address the $70-million in additional funding just needed to operate the TTC in 2011. Will he raise fares? Will he cut service? How much filthier will stations and vehicles get? Will escalators and elevators stop, never to run again? Will he simply starve the TTC and place the blame for whatever happens on their inability to make hard choices?
Ford’s financing plans simply don’t add up, nor do his construction schedules. He claims that the Sheppard and BD extensions could be completed by 2015. That’s a real stretch considering that we have not even been through a project assessment and approval, detailed design and tendering. The SRT is 6.4km long, the Sheppard West connection is about 4km, and the Sheppard East extension would be about 7.5km from Don Mills to McCowan. The total is 17.9km.
The Spadina extension to Vaughan is only 8.6km, has fewer stations, and will cost $2.6-billion including inflation. This brings the pricetag of Ford’s subways to somewhere over $5-billion, not the $4-billion he claims, and assumes we could build them in the same timeframe, with the same inflation factors, as Spadina. That’s simply not realistic.
Ford also hopes for $1-billion in private sector contributions through development fees. As we have seen in many locations — the Bloor-Danforth subway, the Spadina line — development does not follow immediately after subway construction and may be decades, if ever, in the future. Indeed, some neighbourhoods won’t take kindly to someone drawing subway lines through them if the tradeoff is the destruction of what’s there today. There are ways to earmark lands for future higher taxes once a rapid transit line is built, but no guarantee that we will see the money in the short term.
Seeing a platform like this, not to mention similar proposals from other candidates, makes me wonder if anyone has been paying attention to transit history in Toronto and other cities. We seemed doomed to turn the clock back 25 years, at least, to an era when making life better for cars trumped all other concerns, when a few subway proposals were a substitute for real transit planning.
Steve Munro 
It would help greatly if people started calling the Eglinton LRT what it really is (or at least what most people will see it as): a subway. LRT, SRT, XYZ, whatever. It’s a train, a train that runs in a tunnel underground. For 99% of people, that’s a subway. And anyone who wants to scrap Transit City (i.e. Rossi, Ford, Thompson) wants to scrap the badly needed cross-town Eglinton subway. Let them wear that albatross around their necks.
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For the record, a streetcar full with passengers IS traffic.
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Actually Vaughan pays more in Property Taxes than the City of Toronto: Table of GTA tax rates
Toronto has the lowest residential in the area!
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Stephen writes “only Rob Ford has plans which address my concerns on how the city is being run.”
You call Rob Ford a transit rookie. He’s lived in this city for 40 years, and been a city councillor for 10 years. He is not a rookie. Well, he has no excuse for not being a rookie.
[Steve: The following paragraph has been edited. I have saved the original text for reference.]
The man […] has made bigoted and racist comments on several occasions, suggesting he is both a racist and a homophobe. He has a very abusive personality, with documented cases of him verbally abusing students, reporters, other councillors, and family members. […] He has been documented to lie about many issues, ranging from his alcohol-fuelled tirades to his drug-related arrest. He has a horrific attendance record at various council meetings – likely because he is collecting a full salary as both a councillor, and working full-time in a private job. He is notoriously under-prepared and doesn’t seem to understand the reports he is debating.
I just can’t imagine how this person could fulfill the role of mayor, and address anyone’s concerns. Even if he had the best plans in the world, he is totally unfit for mayor, and shouldn’t get a single vote.
However, he doesn’t seem to have the best plans in the world. His gross incompetence and unsuitability for the job aside … there are suggestions that his plans may not be that good.
To vote for such an unqualified candidate with such massive character flaws , simply because they will pay “garbagemen” less is short sighted.
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While Toronto may have a lower tax rate, the comparable property valuations are much higher.
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Without going into my whole multipage detailed “tirade” about property taxes, it is once again necessary to point out that the “multiplier” is not sufficient information to determine if one or another municipality has a higher or lower tax rate. The multiplier is only half of the calculation and in order to compare taxes one also needs to know the assessed value of properties under comparison. Property tax is not a wealth tax – it is a tax assessed at a rate so that it pays for the necessary services provided by a city.
In order to compare “tax rates” it is necessary to look at the actual tax paid for two similar properties. The multiplier alone does not come close to providing adequate information.
Many years ago a morning show sportscaster (Fred Patterson I think) used to have a comedy routine where he provided “partial scores”. Last night, when the Jays played the Yankees he would report, the partial score was 3. The joke of course was that the information was useless. The fact that partial tax information is used to justify political decisions is not a joke – it is sad.
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When I was 15 or so, I used to draw lines on a map with the same enthusiasm shown by Rob Ford. I had no idea about how my subways were going to be funded or as to what the actual demand for service would be. However, I was dead certain that there had to be a subway on Islington Avenue, which coincidentally was where I lived. Even as a 15 year old I had not worked out how to justify the station at the foot of my street, but was definitely sure that it was an essential part of the plan.
However, silly as those “fantasy subways” may have been, there are two important caveats. I was only 15 and I wasn’t running for Mayor.
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I know he said he would replace them with buses… but I couldn’t help but immediately think of this image from the TTC.
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“Actually Vaughan pays more in Property Taxes than the City of Toronto: Table of GTA tax rates
Toronto has the lowest residential in the area!”
You can rely on that website, but I will rely on comparing my property taxes with my friend who lives in Etobicoke. My house is only slightly more expensive than his, and yet I pay less in property taxes. He is being dinged by a variety of small taxes that he must pay to the city. And these taxes add up.
Needless to say he too is looking to move to Woodbridge if anyone other than Rob Ford is elected.
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And this table also shows that Toronto pays the lowest residential taxes in the GTA. Vaughan is just marginally ahead but some are almost twice as high – like Oshawa. I guess Oshawa has to pay for all that sprawl and roads.
Why do so many of the candidates believe they can provide transportation plans without consulting any experts?! Ford is doing everything to have us believe that he understands transportation, while he’s doing everything possible to gut the efficient parts of transit/transportation (streetcars and bike lanes) and ensure that we’ll be stuck in gridlock while subsidizing subways in low density.
Steve: For a fair comparison, you must also add in extra fees such as water rates and the waste management charge that are extra in Toronto, as well as the school taxes imposed by Queen’s Park. I am surprised that tax comparison websites do not include the full story. Having said that, places like Woodbridge do not have 100-year old water mains that need replacing (unlike Toronto), or less well-built ones that are 50-60 years old and falling apart (North York).
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Stephen Cheung says: “I don’t know where you get your numbers from but I certainly do not pay more for property tax than most Torontonians.”
CP says: “Actually Vaughan pays more in Property Taxes than the City of Toronto: Table of GTA tax rates”
I suspect you’re both right. It’s important to note that the rates are a percentage of the assessed value of the home. But you can get far more of a home for a far lower price in Vaughan than you can for the same price in Toronto. So Vaughan, in order to extract a similar level of tax revenue to operate as Toronto has to charge a higher mill rate on residences.
The question I would have for Stephen, though, is this: you say “Compare my place of residence to a similarly priced home in Toronto owned by a friend of mine and I pay less.” I would need a source for this. Have you actually priced out your friend’s home? How much did you pay for your home? It’s entirely possible that, when your friend sells his home, he’ll end up with far more money in his pocket than you would if you sell your home. But given that you both aren’t selling your home, at the moment, you’re sort of arguing on hypotheticals, here.
And it should also be pointed out that Vaughan has (or had) the benefit of charging development charges on new development, essentially raking in millions of dollars in tax revenue hidden on the price of a new home. Toronto, being mostly built out, has fewer opportunities for development charges, and as the cost of maintaining and replacing the infrastructure the original development charges paid for starts accruing, property taxes have to increase, since you can’t charge development charges on a development more than once. The amount of development charges the City of Toronto has been able to extract from its condo development has paled in comparison to the sheer size and volume that the suburbs have been able to accrue through greenfield development.
And you should be warned that your situation is not stable. Mississauga used to boast ten straight years of zero tax increases. The dirty little secret was that they were using development charges on new developments in order to keep their property taxes low. When Mississauga started running out of developable land to charge development charges on, property taxes started going up. Vaughan will reach the same point sometime soon, and you will probably soon find your property taxes rising, possibly beyond Toronto’s levels. Toronto has the benefit of considerable efficiency, thanks to its density. The cost of rehabilitating Vaughan’s infrastructure given its low density is going to be high.
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Stephen Cheung wrote, “I don’t know where you get your numbers from but I certainly do not pay more for property tax than most Torontonians. Compare my place of residence to a similarly priced home in Toronto owned by a friend of mine and I pay less.”
OK, let’s look at the numbers…
Throughout the GTA, we all pay the same education levy (0.241%), so we only have to look at the rest of the property tax bill. In Toronto the 2010 city rate is 0.5895702%.
Outside of Toronto, residents have to pay a levy to their town/city and to their region, so we must look at this combined amount that makes up the non-educational part of the property tax bill. I show the municipal and regional rates in parenthesis:
Richmond Hill: 0.738481% (0.261460% and 0.477021%)
Markham: 0.722334% (0.245313 and 0.477021%)
Vaughan: 0.735898% (0.252591%, 0.477021%, AND 0.006286% hospital levy)
Pickering: 1.130047% (0.377336% and 0.752711%)
Oshawa: 1.463499% (0.718854% and 0.744645%)
Mississauga: 0.741115 % (website only shows total of 0.982115%, I subtracted the education levy)
Brampton: 0.961267% (0.476736% and 0.484531%)
Granted, a similar home on the same size lot will have a higher market value in Toronto (some of this is due to added services, but some is due to LOWER tax rates!). That said, Stephen asked for a comparison of “my place of residence to a similarly priced home in Toronto.”
None of the municipalities I polled above have rates less than 0.7% and Toronto’s is under 0.6%. For every $100k of home value, a resident in Toronto pays at least $100 less in property taxes than any other GTA resident with a similarly priced home.
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CP says: “Actually Vaughan pays more in Property Taxes than the City of Toronto: Table of GTA tax rates. Toronto has the lowest residential in the area!”
That’s a bad comparison… Toronto has the lowest *rate* because it has the highest property prices. Similarly Oshawa has the higehst rate because it has some of the lowest property prices (newly renovated 3-bed detached for $198k anyone?).
A far more useful comparision would be average amount of property tax paid per houshold or per person. I’m not convinced Toronto would come out lowest under those measures.
Steve: However, you would also have to compare the level of services provided for those taxes. Toronto has a much more extensive transit system, for all its problems, and the availability of transit allows people to avoid owning, or at least using, a car for all of their travel. Many social services exist in Toronto because unlike some suburbs, we actually admit that there are poor people living here and it’s our job to house and serve them. That may seem like a waste, in the sense that it’s not a service directly consumed by many taxpayers, but there is strong evidence that support for the poorest among us leads to safer neighbourhoods and a reduction in poverty-induced crime.
Toronto’s density allows neighbourhoods full of interesting shops, restaurants, theatres, homes, parks to thrive and have that “urban” feel so absent in many (but not all) suburban areas. Tourists come to Toronto not to visit shopping malls and mega arterials, but the city as a place for people.
These are some of the things our taxes pay for. The high property values reflect the benefits of living in that kind of a city. If downtown had decayed like so many other places in North America, you could get a cheap Victorian in Cabbagetown for a song (remember when that was possible?).
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Well, it’s a rail line in a tunnel, so it is a “subway” in that sense, but the reality is that in Toronto, when people say “subway,” they virtually always mean “HRT.” Do we call the Bay St streetcar tunnel a subway? No; we call it many things, but not a subway.
Does it make a difference to people? Well, that entirely depends on how high peak period ridership is, and what goals one has for impacts on other parts of the network to make it more sustainable and attractive. Case in point, the Bloor-Danforth line is almost at its practical loading standard in the AM peak period until they replace the signal system (a process which they haven’t started, and only just recently did it debut in a rolling capital plan), especially on the west end, although the east end is not far behind at all.
I find it at least unfair, if not clearly false, to say Sarah Thomson plans to take an axe to Eglinton, as it is included in her plan as a HRT line. The current proposal for the line from Black Creek to Don Valley is a subway with LRT-specs (and is HRT-incompatible), the difference in cost to make it HRT-spec is likely marginal as the same equipment can still be used. Metrolinx has already deferred the west end of the line, which conceivably leaves its fate beyond the 2011 provincial election unless Toronto raises its own funds through road pricing or what-have-you.
Eglinton as a HRT corridor would open the door to substantial alleviation of crowding on the Bloor-Danforth line in the AM peak, allowing more room for that corridor to grow in future. More importantly, however, are the capacity concerns on Yonge, which only the Downtown Relief Line can address in any meaningful, sustainable, long-term manner. Of the 5 main mayoral candidates, only Sarah Thomson has that critical corridor on the radar. Any sustainable transportation future for Toronto will fall short without that subway.
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I think many of you are being too nice to Mr. Cheung. Mr. Munro has already done the noble thing by posting his pro-Ford comments, but I don’t see him being slammed hard enough to falling into the same “I know a guy” trap that the Ford-ties and right-wing blogosphere fall for all the time. Knowing one or two people in a certain situation does not an empirical study make! Yet, Mr. Cheung knows a guy in 416 who pays more tax, so obviously we all do. Stockwell Day knows a guy who didn’t like filling out some of the Census long form questions, so clearly we all would prefer to have bad data. And Mr. Ford knows a guy who lives on Sheppard East and thinks that the LRT in the middle of his massive arterial will make his traffic worse than if a full four-car train ran empty every five minutes beneath the street, so clearly that’s the best strategy for all of us… even the four million others in the GTA who haven’t been to anything or anywhere in North Scarborough in decades and won’t be going there for anything a decade from now either. Yet a few more of those four million attend things downtown, yet that’s where vehicles should be removed without a better solution put into place.
No, Mr. Cheung. Overpaid garbagemen or not, your preferred canadidate has just attacked and threatened everything that many followers of this blog hold near and dear, and you’re not going to get away with trite little “I know someone” comments as your defence. The knowledge displayed by the Ford team and his supporters is the worst kind of populism — you’re Tea Partiers with the same illogical understanding or sense of why and how things are the way they are, and worse, you have no inclination to learn or discover more that might counter your view. Instead, because “you know this” you’ll defend ridiculous plans and ideas to the hilt. Well I for one am thankful that you don’t get a vote for Toronto mayor, and you’re welcome to stay in Woodbridge. And your friend is welcome to move there in November too.
I, meanwhile, will be manning the barricades in the fight against that candidate… but I’m also girding myself for reality. Even if 70% of 416 voters reject Mr. Ford, their vote splitting amongst 3 or 4 other candidates will still leave him and his 30% don’t-wanna-see-the-forest-for-the-trees supporters with a victory. Tell you what, though… I’m not leaving my city even if taxes go up, but if Mr. Ford does ANYTHING to lessen or ruin my King and Queen streetcars short of a subway replacement for them, I’m not just ditching downtown, I’m gonna ditch the entire region and move somewhere where I won’t have to see the chaos and decay that’ll ensue. It’s a ridiculous city-killing plan Mr. Cheung, and you’re a fool to think he doesn’t really mean all of it when he says “all of it”.
Steve: With some trepidation, I am letting this comment through because it makes good points about the Ford campaign, but I would appreciate it if people could spend more time on that subject and less on specific posters. We all have our points of view, and the vitriol directed at me on some other sites I just leave for the folks there who mistake insults for intelligence. Here I would prefer we discuss the issues. All of the text above could easily be rewritten to make all of its points without the need to go after Stephen Cheung, and much as I may not always agree with him, I would thank folks to just “stick to the facts”.
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Sue-Ann Levy came out in full throated support for his plan today, saying it will “restore the car to its rightful place”. If that does not make clear what the man’s intentions are and the threat he poses to transit user, cyclists and pedestrians, I don’t know what will.
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One needs to be careful when assuming a house in Vaughan will get you much more then Toronto – it’s very wrong – I don’t have the figures but a little while ago the average price of a house in Toronto was roughly 400K and throughout the 905 it was around 350K.
And I’ll wager a guess that some 905 communities i.e. Markham and the like are much closer to Toronto’s figure.
People seem to forget about large swaths of land in the outer 416 (parts of Scarborough and northern Etobicoke) where houses can be much cheaper then the 905. So while we have a lot more high valued properties we also have a lot of low value properties.
Toronto’s residential tax rate are lower – likely even on absolute terms, and we do get more for the dollar in terms of services.
This isn’t a good thing at all, our commercial property taxes are much higher (along with the provincial education component on commercial properties, unfairly). This has caused, and it’s quite apparent, very little commercial construction in the outer 416 over the last 10 years. All these great transit plans we’re touting, no matter which plan, will all fail to attract large numbers, other then for the ability to get to the core and off peak usage (which is very high in Toronto, granted), as commercial development is lacking. Which is a striking contrast to many areas in the 905 – who benefit from Toronto’s high tax rates on commercial properties.
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I’m amused to discover (and I admit I missed it in his original post) that the only person he defending and supporting Rob Ford lives in Woodbridge.
I commented early in this election that Rossi had the 905 vote sewn up, when he announced he would remove the existing bike lanes; perhaps I was wrong!
Seems the further you get from Toronto, the more one doesn’t support Miller and Transit City. The most vocal folk I’ve heard (in the real world) are in 519!
If only they could vote …
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The original comment about taxes differing between the 416 and 905 laid the ground rules: “similarly priced home”. How much home one can get, and what services are provided are outside the scope of that comparison. However, how much in taxes and “fees” are within the scope. Toronto has the vehicle registration fee, and a garbage fee, which have to be part of the comparison.
This all got started when Stephen Cheung compared his home in Vaughan with that of a friend’s in Toronto and said they were “similarly priced.” I missed noting that was meaningless, because it is necessary to compare similarly valued homes, as the tax rate applies against a market value that is set every year or two and may or may not be close to what the house would actually sell for if it were to be sold today.
Given two equally valued homes, the Toronto home owner will pay less property taxes than any homeowner in any of the other GTA municipalities. When the Toronto homeowner also adds in the vehicle and garbage fees, they will most likely still be paying less than anyone outside of Toronto. The exception to this would be if the house had a fairly low value (under $250k for sure, but a detailed math analysis would be needed above that) and comparisons were being made with some of the lower tax rate areas such as Vaughan, Richmond Hill, and Markham.
Now, all that aside, one’s tax bill may not just be the property taxes alone. In some cases, special assessments are applied. In my neighbourhood, one street is being redone to give it curbs and sidewalks (it previously had a road with shoulders and ditches). The cost (or at least some of this) is actually assessed to the home owners on the street. The total special assessment is divided among the home owners based on the percentage of their assessed values to the total assessed value of all the homes on the street and their share is divided by 10 to come up with a special assessment that is added to their annual tax bill for the next 10 years.
If comparing taxes between locations, it is necessary to exclude any such special assessments.
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One thing I wish was started again was the Eglinton West subway. I has to take the 32B to the end and back at night. It would need to come to Jane to really speed that line up.
Too bad they filled in tunnel, if that what it was, won’t be revived for a subway and not an LRT line.
I’m retired now because of 4 hrs of transit each day. I live at Warden/Finch and tried every possible way to get to Dixie/Eglinton with a GTA pass and it still worked out to 4 hrs a day even going on the BDS to Islington for Mississauga transit.
A dream to get close to where I did work would have been to run GO on the CPR double tracked line from a station made somewhere near the Agincourt yards,that runs down thru Don Mills and across over to Mississauga. There is a Dixie station.
Put stations only on major roads, say 3 stations to Yonge and 3 more to Kipling,then carry on to Mississauga.
This reminds me of my holiday to Kenora. CPR has a beautiful station right in town, but it is only a freight office. Where do passengers get VIA rail? 23km outside at a town called Redditt. CN rail. There is nothing there but a broken concrete pad.
I flew to Winnipeg and was picked up by a friend.
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If Rob Ford is supposed to be a “financial expert”, he would see that the car is a very expensive liability and not an asset. Why does he not see that having to use the car would cost the user 3 or 4 times the cost when compared with public transit? At least, before Rob Ford, we could go without the car, in most cases. There are books on that subject (“Carjacked, The Culture of the Automobile & Its Effect On Our Lives” for example) if he can get the time to read books, reports, or studies on the subject, if wasn’t driving everywhere.
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Skill-testing question: Will these buses work as well as, say, the Dufferin bus does? According to statements by many drivers of that route I have talked to, they can’t even leapfrog each other.
Now imagine bus after bus bunching at corner after corner over a human face, forever.
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I was just on the Transit Toronto website and there was a video of Rob Ford I could have played had I wanted to but since I already know his insipid transit plan I decided that I’d sooner get up on an over pass above a streetcar line and relieve myself on the trolley wire than to watch that drivel.
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I used to like Rob Ford, the idea of cutting out wasteful spending in the city is a good one. His transit plan, though, leaves a lot to be desired. I suggest that before Mr. Ford decides to scrap streetcars and replace them with buses, that he think that one through.
Streetcars may be slow, but they can actually improve traffic flow, even when they take a lane away. This is because people actually like riding in streetcars, as long as they are operated properly. What people who are riding in streetcars and buses, think of as operated properly, is that the car come on time and that the car most of the time has seats available.
This means that on some routes people will be happy to leave the car at home and take the streetcar, meaning less traffic, less traffic means better traffic flow.
What annoys people on streetcars and on buses is when the signpost says it’s coming in 3 minutes, and it’s 30 minutes before it comes.
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His agenda? … a streetcar named retire. Look at this poll.
It’s a tie – over 8,500 votes recorded so far. I didn’t realize the anti-streetcar sentiment in Toronto was that strong.
Steve: But the question with this poll, as with voting intentions, is the degree to which this is influenced by what people have heard from candidates who are telling everyone subways are better.
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Here’s an idea…
Cancel the Scarborough-Malvern, Waterfront West, and Jane LRT lines. Invest the money saved towards a first phase DRL, in the form of a Queen Subway. At each station, have two underground pedestrian moving walkways (as what used to connect the two Spadina stations), one to King Street and one to Dundas Street.
That way, you 1) eliminate a few Transit City lines which aren’t vital, 2) devote funds to the beginnings of a downtown subway, and 3) negate the need for the King, Queen and Dundas streetcars in the downtown core, thereby freeing up some space for autos on those streets.
PS: I had no idea RF still had Mark Towhey as a policy advisor. Eegh, I’m not voting, f*** it…
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I’m not sure who first claimed that increasing public transit in Toronto meant “declaring war on the car” (couldn’t have been Mr. Ford, could it?) However, I suspect that he and his advisors have decided more voters in Toronto drive cars than take transit, which means campaigning to scrap planned transit improvements and remove streetcars will mean more votes for Mr. Ford.
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Thank you, Mr. Munro, for posting my comments despite the attack nature of them towards another writer. I apologize for going off the handle… although I’m still very happy that certain Woodbridge citizens don’t get to vote in our election. Today has been a very odd and rough day, and the vitriol has been rising in my throat all throughout… I admit that I’m pretty flummoxed by yesterday’s announcement and it’s weighing on my decision-making skills.
I thought I had been doing a good job of preparing myself for the scary future of city hall being in Ford’s hands… but that was because even in my worst imaginings of what he’d propose or do, I never EVER thought that all streetcars would be on the table. I honestly thought those days were long gone and that downtown streetcars were pretty much sacrosanct. Until yesterday evening, it hadn’t dawned on me that my near future would be about protest marches to save the King St. streetcar… I thought it would be more along the lines of saving Eglinton. But as of yesterday we,ve all reached worst-case-scenario time, and politeness slipped off of my agenda.
I’m thinking we must immediately poll the other candidates to see who might even mildly agree with the Ford “all-streetcars-should-go scenario”… and any that do would be immediately struck from any support. It has to be a “everyone supports them but you, Rob” situation for the rest of the campaign, and then we can emphasize how ridiculously wasteful it would be for Ford to scrap streetcars on the raised beds built on Spadina, Queens Quay and St. Clair (like seriously, even if St. Clair wasn’t run well as a project, it’s done now so nobody could possibly condone NOT running streetcars on it now, right? Right? Yikes.). The worst-case scenario is now on our doorsteps, and split votes from the non-Ford citizenry will ensure his platform reigns by November… so we’ve gotta start whittling down the others to get to a more one-on-one race where the other candidate has a chance of winning. Proof that it’s quickly becoming a nightmare? Even the Star’s poll today of “are streetcars good for Toronto?” was only at 50-50 late this afternoon. OMG — that’s half the city ready to see us abandon the best infrastructure we’ve got downtown. I’m floored that the mainstream media so far has not played it big, but regardless I will be demanding of the other candidates that they confirm the long-term existence of streetcars if the city falls to their watch instead of Mr. Ford’s. Life without them just wouldn’t be the Toronto I’ve loved all my life. It would be OVER.
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“Streetcars bunch due to a variety of reasons, such as traffic congestion, weather conditions, as well as other factors”.
Perhaps if the TTC stop using its official response to explain poor reliability, less people would believe the misconception that Streetcars are always slow.
Steve: Buses bunch too, but the TTC gets the most flak about the streetcar lines, and trots out their excuses for that mode more often. When this doesn’t work, we hear about how “TTC culture” makes it impossible to change the way service is managed. “TTC culture” mainly consists of telling the world how good the system is, to the point that a so-called Customer Service Advisory Committee is co-opted into talking about how customers are the real problem.
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Someting is going to happen between now and late October. Obviously saying tripe like completing the old Metro plans for the freeway system and colour coding the curbs is sounding like he’s a little out there. Some people have already left comments saying separating the old city of Toronto from the suburban boroughs sounds like a good idea. But then again the former Metro government did hold a referendum where 75% were against this megacity in the first place, so I guess the more both sides push the more we can at least both agree that a divorce is in good order.
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Wogstor wrote: “I used to like Rob Ford, the idea of cutting out wasteful spending in the city is a good one. His transit plan, though, leaves a lot to be desired. I suggest that before Mr. Ford decides to scrap streetcars and replace them with buses, that he think that one through.”
There is something you can do about that, you know. Assuming you aren’t the same person I told this to on the Toronto Traction mailing list, you are the second Rob Ford supporter who has publicly changed his vote because of the man’s ill-advised streetcar plan. My advice to you: tell him. Write him a polite e-mail or snail-mail letter explaining your reasons, and why his idea to retire streetcars from Toronto’s streets is a really bad idea.
Rob Ford isn’t mayor yet. He needs something specific in order to get to the mayor’s chair, and that’s your vote. You have a unique opportunity to get influence policy that you won’t get for another four years after the October 25 vote. Speak out now, because Rob Ford won’t be needing your vote once October 25 has passed.
David writes: “I decided that I’d sooner get up on an over pass above a streetcar line and relieve myself on the trolley wire than to watch that drivel.”
Wouldn’t work, I’m afraid. Your pee stream isn’t contiguous and it won’t carry the charge from the overhead wire up to your privates. The Mythbusters busted that myth in one of their first episodes.
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The video of Ford announcing his transit plan is comedy gold.
His plan for pedestrians and cyclists is, if anything, more insulting than his plan for transit (albeit potentially less devastating, since he doesn’t mention planning to take away our sidewalks). Walking and biking trails? Because people who walk or bike can’t possibly have a DESTINATION in mind; those activities are just for “recreation”.
Steve: I deliberately didn’t comment on the cycling and pedestrian parts of Ford’s plan because others from those advocacy groups will do a better job. However, yes, they are astoundingly bad proposals, and underscore that the real intention is to get anything that isn’t a car out of Rob’s way so that he can drive around the city unmolested by the rest of us.
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Hi Steve:-
I guess Rob is planning on putting trolley coaches into our fair burg. His statement of replacing streetcars with “clean” buses can only mean trolleys eh? Or is there some new wi-fi powered vehicle out there that can draw clean electrical power from the nether reaches of alpha-centauri?
Come on Rob, there is no such thing as a clean bus unless its a trolley, sheesh!!!
Dennis Rankin
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“Even the Star’s poll today of “are streetcars good for Toronto?” was only at 50-50 late this afternoon”.
This, and any other on-line poll, has a very significant flaw in that anyone can vote. I would guess that at least 50% of on-line Star readers, for example, are from the 905 and beyond, and are more likely to support the removal of our streetcars. But that doesn’t matter, because they can’t vote in our municipal election, so who cares what they think? My bigger concern is what happens if Rob Ford actually wins this election. Could he get enough votes on council to support his plan? I don’t think so, but I’m definately concerned. The way I see it, if Rob Ford wants to starve Scarborough and Etobicoke of decent transit, fine. Just leave our downtown streetcar network alone.
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Hi Steve.
I checked out the poll that M. Briganti is referring to. I have to question that type of poll because, depending on the number of computers you have access to, you can vote over and over again. I also believe that any Ford / CPC supporter would vote to support Ford regardless of where they live.
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I love the assumption that anyone who hates the streetcars must be a troglodyte conservative from the 905. I would rather chew broken glass than vote for Rob Ford, but I despise the streetcars: the way the TTC runs them, they manage to combine all the disadvantages of buses and rail, with none of the advantages of either. This is unlikely to ever change.
For me, the one (tiny) bright spot for a Ford mayoralty would be the demise of the streetcars. Get rid of them, fire everyone connected with them, wait until the TTC loses its institutional memory of them, and start over with a real tram system.
Steve: You will wait an excruciatingly long time for that. Many of the problems with the way the TTC runs streetcars also affect the bus system. The core of the problem is that the TTC refuses to accept responsibility for managing service properly, putting enough vehicles on the road, and operating service that is attractive to customers. They are further hampered by a Council that gives up road space with great difficulty to any transit mode, streetcar or bus or “tram” (by which I presume you mean LRT).
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Steve said …
“Steve: But the question with this poll, as with voting intentions, is the degree to which this is influenced by what people have heard from candidates who are telling everyone subways are better.”
But the poll question was to replace streetcars with CLEAN BUSES, not subways.
In support of our LRT brothers, we subway advocates are arranging picketing teams to head down to Ford’s campaign office in protest, but we’d like you Steve to come along and act as standby in case we need someone to get rough and raid Ford’s stockpile of twinkies and ho-hos.
Steve: Ford and some other candidates have been quite clear that the Transit City lines should be subways, and this anti-streetcar attitude spills over into the debate about the legacy system. As for the twinkies, I must decline. If I ate too many, I might do something untoward.
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Given how much influence the Mayor of Toronto has on the daily lives of people in the 905, I always think 905ers should be able to vote in the Toronto Mayoral election. (Although, to be fair, Torontonians should be able to vote for 905 mayors as well).
Steve, I agree with your point that Toronto provides more services than other GTA municipalites, which I’m fairly certain means it would come out the most expensive on a per person/per household basis. My point was that comparing the rates is meaningless unless you compare house prices as well.
A colleague of mine pointed out that the City has done nothing to help streetcars running in mixed traffic, when they could have done things like transit priority (and transit before left turners), better route management to prevent bunching, and actually getting the laws banning you from blocking intersections (and hence streetcars) enforced.
Steve: Yes, Council has ducked its responsibility to transit on many issues, but I wouldn’t let the TTC off the hook for doing what it could to improve the current situation.
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Calvin HC: I am basing this comparison on our property assessment bills. My property was reassessed upon purchase of the home, while Terry’s (my friend) had his reassessed a few years back and is due for reassessment this year. Right now, only a few thousand dollars separate my assessement from his, with mine costing more. I expect that when his house is reassessed, then his house will be worth more and thus he will be paying more tax.
OC Corktown: I never said that I fully supported Ford’s transit plan. In fact, I agree with most of you that Ford’s transit plan has a lot of holes in it. But despite this, his transit plan has two characteristics: 1) it is hard to take seriously on face value, and 2) he still needs to be educated on these issues. I’m only voting for him because of all of his other aspects of the campaign, and a cobbled-together transit plan is but a small part of it.
So far the only person who supports Ford’s position wholeheartedly is Sue Ann Levy even though this runs counter to the Toronto Sun editorial run the same day.
I also question the two polls run by the Star and Sun regarding the fate of Streetcars. Whereas there is that 50-50 split on the Star, the Sun has it as 80-20 in favour of retiring the streetcar. I see it as a symptom of Toronto’s congestion issues and how hard it is to get into the city. I would prefer if the streetcars stayed, after all, I agree that it is a Toronto Icon and should not be touched. Conservative types don’t usually hang on to sentimental stuff.
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I am not trying to turn this into a political debate but..
Jordan Kerim said:
“Some people have already left comments saying separating the old city of Toronto from the suburban boroughs sounds like a good idea. But then again the former Metro government did hold a referendum where 75% were against this megacity in the first place, so I guess the more both sides push the more we can at least both agree that a divorce is in good order.”
I agree with this statement. I feel that if Toronto was blown up and the original pre-1998 cities reinstated, we would have a better grasp on handling transit. I say that because at least then, things would be less about how one part of the city gets better transit then the rest and more about the local transit issues.
For example, if the Cities of Scarborough, North York, Metropolitan Toronto, Etobicoke and the Borough of East York were brought back then there would be alot less squabbling about how streetcars are causing mayhem in a totally part of the city and allow for better improvements in areas that need it.
I understand that transit was not the jurisdiction of Metro Toronto but of all the municipalities but at least bringing back the former municipalities would allow for transit needs such as poor transit in Scarborough, streetcars causing traffic tie-ups in Downtown, subway extensions in North York to be brought to the forefront. It would allow for a greater focus on the needs of the area and not the city as a whole.
Steve: Actually, transit WAS the responsibility of Metro, not of the individual cities.
The way I look at it is this… Rome only fell because it was too big to manage. It became too big and it essentially went bankrupt.
With that in mind, I do also understand that the Sheppard Subway was the brainchild of Mel Lastman, then the Mayor of North York. I believe he wanted to create a downtown in North York.
I will say this though, when there were 5 [actually 6] different municipalities some good did come. I mean look at the Scarborough RT. By having a separate City of Scarborough people were able to focus on the transit needs of the City itself and realize the RT was needed.
Steve: The original Scarborough LRT was a TTC proposal from the mid 1960s that was warped into the RT line due to provincial pressure. The original planning studies, including the one for a Malvern extension, are all based on streetcar/LRT vehicles.
Look at things now, with a larger city people are tending to focus on Downtown and things such as the Scarborough RT are being left to decay because they are not Downtown.
All I can say is, for the sake of transit in Toronto, we need to blow the city up and reinstate the former municipalities. Its the only way the entire city (or cities) will get high quality public transit.
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