44 thoughts on “TTC Service Changes Effective November 24, 2019”

1. Is my memory faulty? I could swear there was a modest amount of money for ‘new/improved’ service coming out of last years budget process. If that was the case, where’d it go?

   Steve: Into thin air. I will deal with this in more detail when we get close to the year-end results and the budget for 2020.

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2. If anyone at the TTC is reading this and knows, I hope the CLRV’s can be dressed up as they once were in the early 1980s with couplers – not that they have to work. Maybe it’s too late to find them and stick them on in time for the retirement run, but perhaps afterward at the Halton Streetcar Museum.

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3. The 121 is a useful bus line but the TTC seem to make every effort to reduce its viability. With the additional population in the West Don Lands the route should be continued a block or so east to Bayview so it would properly serve these folk. In addition, the fact that it does not stop on Front (in either direction) in front of Union Station makes it a FAR less useful (or obvious) route. (Stops in both directions are east of Bay and west of Simcoe). I have been told that they can’t stop in front of Union because of the illegal parking which gives one two thoughts: deal with the illegal parking and/or put in a stop anyway – the bus (and all traffic) move through that block at very low speed now so if it stops at a stop and blocks other traffic it really will not make it worse! This route started in summer 2016 so it is overdue for the ‘obligatory’ review all ‘new’ routes are supposed to get. – maybe you want to do one for them to show how poorly it operates!

   Steve: I am just now getting the sort of detailed vehicle tracking data from the VISION system that I have been able to get from the old CIS for years, and plan to look at routes like 121 in detail. A related problem here is that the TTC is scheduling service so that there will almost never be short turns, in theory. This results in extended headways and running times because no buses are added to the route.

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4. What about the 505 Dundas?????

   Steve: Streetcars should return either in February or March.

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5. Are there any plans to install elevators in the Castle Frank TTC station? There are other TTC stations that also do not have elevators. What are the plans about that?

   Steve: The full schedule for elevator installation shows Castle Frank as completing in 2023.

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6. 121 is currently scheduled for 17 minute between Bathurst and Church during evening rush, but the actual times are often 25 to 35 minutes. It might be better if it joined the express buses on King between Spadina and Church during that period.

   It used to stop eastbound in front of Union station, but that was just a temporary stop due to construction. It could also use stops at York St and more stops between Spadina and Bathurst.

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7. Maybe they should convert the King street priority to transit vehicle only during rush hours and run the 121 on it too. Certainly the 172 Cherry Street bus did much better when it operated on King in mix traffic than the 121 is doing now. I feel like TTC let the riders on the Esplanade down by going from a decent service to a totally unreliable route.

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8. The same problem continues with not adding service to make a difference to the riders. I am shocked that they don’t learn their lesson.

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9. A few corrections on the final CLRV days. The scheduled farewell CLRV service on Queen is until Sat Dec 21. The final hoorah (I don’t have details yet either) is Sun Dec 29. Not sure what’s happening if anything on Sun Dec 22.

   Steve: Thanks for catching this. I have updated the dates in the article.

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10. Exciting times. SmartTrack, Scarborough subway, Ontario Line, Eglinton West subway, Yonge subway extension, and much much more. What the Liberals never did in 15 years in power, Ford Conservatives and Tory are going to get done in only a few years. There are those who would like to see Ford fail but I hope that Ford and Tory are not going to be distracted by people like that and leave their mark on the transit system for generations to come.

    Steve: Your naïve support for Tory and Ford ignores many problems with their proposals that have nothing to do with political support one way or the other. I cannot help remembering the excitement over past plans which have been less successful than their original “vision”.

    As for leaving a mark on the transit system, Doug Ford’s major effect may well be to leave the City with a huge bill for subway maintenance and operation that it cannot afford. As to John Tory, his SmartTrack scheme is now reduced to four new GO stations and no more service than GO would have run based on its own plan. SmartTrack has skewed consideration of other transit plans and diverted funding from other projects.

    Not the greatest legacy.

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11. How are there ever going to be streetcars on 505 again without extra purchases? By my count they have about a dozen left to deliver. There have still not fully converted 506 and there are none on 511. Don’t see how there will be streetcars on 505 next year with all the CLRV’s retired.

    Steve: 511 Bathurst will go back to bus operation except when there is something drawing substantial crowds, or when construction projects free up streetcars from other routes (these tend to happen at the same time in the summer). We will also see a continuation of peak period extras using buses on streetcar routes like 506 Carlton and 501 Queen, and of course the 503 Kingston Road remains a bus route for the foreseeable future.

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12. Is the 42A Cummer all day service extended to Middlefield temporary or permanent?

    Steve: It is supposed to be temporary until the end of 2019.

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13. After the construction at McNicoll garage, then would some 42 Cummer buses loop at that garage?

    Steve: I don’t know what the looping arrangements will be.

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14. But will some 42 Cummer buses terminate at McNicoll garage after the division opens?

    Steve: You will have to wait and see what the schedules look like for January. The memo describing them is not out yet.

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15. Steve: “I am just now getting the sort of detailed vehicle tracking data from the VISION system that I have been able to get from the old CIS for years, and plan to look at routes like 121 in detail.”.

    Though the current route of the 121 along Front St is probably better IF it were kept clear of parked cars and traffic, it would be interesting to see load figures for the 121 compared to its immediate predecessor the 172. The 172 did not go west of Union Station but it did stop n front of King Station and (from my rather limited experience) seemed much busier. Maybe the eastbound 121 should go north on Spadina, east on King to Yonge (not Church) and then south to The Esplanade. The westbound could go north on Church to King and west to Spadina (or John) before turning south and then further west along Bremner.

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16. Because of the shortage, is the TTC going to order any more streetcars in the near future?

    Steve: 505 Dundas is coming back over the winter, possibly in February, although 511 Bathurst will probably revert to buses.

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17. When will Kingston Road get their streetcars back?

    Steve: This will likely only happen with the current fleet size during periods when enough streetcars are displaced by construction elsewhere to shift them to Kingston Road while the buses handle shuttle service.

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18. The 121 works okay before the morning rush, later in the evening on rush hours, and on weekends (if you can find one where they don’t disrupt downtown for some suburbanite fun run or another). During rush hours, it’s dismal. It’s the only line providing service between King and Queens Quay for residents along its route, a number that continues to grow. And given how an increasing number of car and taxi drivers are ignoring the King St restrictions, the King car can be unpredictable at times. A 45 minute ride on the 121 from Berkeley to Bay during rush hour is ridiculous. The problem, especially in the evening, is 905 commuters clogging up all the roads to get on the Gardiner (which they don’t pay for). Until the city prioritizes the needs of residents over moving suburbanites, nothing will change. Toll the Gardiner (and the DVP) and station a couple of Green Hornets to ticket/tow the Union Station blockers.

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19. The 121 should go south on Church rather then Yonge because Yonge is totally congested during evening rush, while Church is not because you can’t get to the Gardiner/Lake Shore from Church.

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20. The 121 Eastbound does not go south on Yonge with current routing. It goes south on Scott the sidestreet after Yonge. Your suggestion would only be relevant if you were agreeing with the suggestion to run it along King to avoid Front. I reiterate (and more coherently, since my last comment wasn’t completely clear), this is the only East-West route you’ll find between King and Queens Quay. Moving it up to King defeats much of the purpose of the route AND leaves Union Station without a link surface traffic nearby. The current stop locations aren’t perfect, but given that VIA trains, UPX, and, to a lesser extent, GO all attract people with luggage, expecting users to walk with luggage because we refuse to get tough with scofflaw drivers seems…well, typically Toronto actually.

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21. Not to go on about the 121, BUT, I agree with SingaporeBill that moving the 121 to King would not be the best idea but if the City cannot get its act together to allow public transit to operate properly on Front it is an option (though would then certainly not serve VIA, UPX or GO customers. Something it now does in a VERY half-hearted way.)

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22. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the 121 go south on Yonge – it’s always been Scott recently, and Church before that. Though I’m not even bothering to try catching it much anymore, with the 504 so much improved – I wonder if that’s impacting ridership.

    Before the 121, I’d use the 72, as it was a fairly good fast run from the Sherbourne/Front area to the Pape/Gerrard area – but the 121 is no use for that at all, with a long walking connection to the Pape bus at Cherry. Even after the route was split into 72/172, it was normally a good connection.

    I can’t be the only one who is using that route less. I also don’t understand why they stop it at Cherry, and don’t loop at Bayview. It’s like they don’t want people to ride it. And with Bayview such a fast road up the Don Valley – why not extend it to the Brickworks, or to Broadview station via Bayview/Pottery, or even up to Moore … could service Laird station. I bet it would have riders then!

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23. Steve: 511 will go back to bus operation except when there is something drawing substantial crowds

    I like this, high capacity transit should only be deployed when there is the demand for it. Bathurst will be best served by a single route from Exhibition to Steeles without an unnecessary transfer imposed by streetcars. During the CNE, this seamless bus service can be supplemented by streetcars. Finally, the TTC is doing something that makes sense but why not combine 511 + 7 = 518 which should be the number of the new seamless transferless route?

    Steve: Very little of the traffic coming south on 7 Bathurst transfers to the streetcars, but a single route would mean worse service for everyone. Service on the Bathurst bus has been a mess for years.

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24. One user writes RE: 121: “ Moving it up to King defeats much of the purpose of the route AND leaves Union Station without a link surface traffic nearby.”

    Looks like he forgot about the 6 Bay and 72 Pape buses that stop on street at Union Station too.

    Steve: A problem with the 6 and 72 is that they run along Queens Quay, south of the rail corridor, rather than The Esplanade, north of the corridor. They serve two separate markets.

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25. The 121 has to run on a maze of streets between John and Bathurst. Is there a reason it doesn’t run on Bremner right through to Simcoe? Obviously there will be no LRT along there any time soon.

    My experience riding this route a few times (though not this year) is that service is unreliable, and scheduled and/or predicted buses don’t show up. They seem to go to Exhibition loop and then…..vanish.

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26. “The 121 has to run on a maze of streets between John and Bathurst.”

    A few months ago the route was change to go straight along Front to Spadina to Fort York. I don’t know if the old route was meant to serve the condos by SkyDome, but it didn’t actually stop between Front and Spadina.

    “They seem to go to Exhibition loop and then…..vanish.”

    Any bus that doesn’t move for 5 minutes tends to vanish from NextBus predictions. TransSee attempts to continue to provide predictions for cases like that.

    “A problem with the 6 and 72 is that they run along Queens Quay, south of the rail corridor, rather than The Esplanade, north of the corridor. They serve two separate markets.”

    To get to 95% of the places in Toronto from Union requires using the subway. The people who live along the 121 don’t have exclusive rights to a (very slow) one seat ride to Union.

    Steve: That snotty remark ignores the fact that the original purpose of a route on The Esplanade was to “serve” the neighbourhood that grew up around it. With the extension westward, the route became less reliable for its original market. Using a service on Queens Quay requires a tedious, and in places dangerous walk south from The Esplanade.

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27. Ed: The CNE has been a cultural black hole for decades. Of course the 121’s are going to vanish!

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28. At the risk of getting banned for running a 121 campaign, I’ll comment again. 🙂

    First, as olive branch to Steve, I’ll make a comment about the 60.

    I have never taken the 60 regularly, but I rode the 53 for several years and I can suggest one way to improve service on the 60 (and the 53) very easily: Make every one of them an express service until they reach Steeles. So many times I would just barely squeeze on to a 53, jam-packed as it left Finch and rattle along. We. Stopped. At. Every. Stop. On Yonge. By the time we got to Steeles, the crowd in the bus had thinned to the point that one could get a seat. Slowing down these vital and lengthy routes to provide a milk run on Yonge is dumb. Increase service on the 97 and make the 60 and 53 non-stop to Steeles.

    Steve is quite right. The 121 is different from the 6 and the 72. They run south of the railroad tracks, though, as a resident of the area, I don’t consider the railway the problem. It’s Lakeshore. It’s big and unwelcoming to cross during the day and, during rush hour, it’s really unpleasant as eager 905ers, used to ignoring pedestrians in their bedroom communities, make crossing a huge number of lanes of traffic intimidating.

    Then there is the matter of distance. If, next time I come back from the airport, I catch a 6 or 72 home with my luggage, I’ve then got to trek 750 metres home. If I wanted to walk 750 metres to a transit stop, I’d live in Scarborough, not downtown. In that case I’d be better off walking from Union, with my 30kg of luggage. It’d be a bit longer, but I wouldn’t have to cross Lakeshore or pay a fare. Or, trek up to King and take the streetcar.

    But the point that the discussion of the 72 and 6 miss is, again, it is the only east west route south of King. There’s a streetcar west of Yonge and some buses east of Yonge, both on Queens Quay, but to actually travel across downtown south of King, there is no other route. If someone in City Place wants to visit the Distillery, it’s the 121 they have to take. If someone living at the far end of The Esplanade wants to go to the convention centre, it’s the 121 they have to take.

    Living downtown has many benefits and much of life here can be done on foot. But some trips across the bottom of downtown are long enough to justify the ride. Or the weather is bad. Or, as I sometimes do, you may be travelling with an elderly or disabled person who can’t walk a kilometre.

    I’m sure the riders of those other routes have service concerns too. However, I’ve never seen a service more negatively affected by the city letting automobile drivers break the law than the 121.

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29. P.C. Kumar: I like this, high capacity transit should only be deployed when there is the demand for it. Bathurst will be best served by a single route from Exhibition to Steeles without an unnecessary transfer imposed by streetcars. During the CNE, this seamless bus service can be supplemented by streetcars. Finally, the TTC is doing something that makes sense but why not combine 511 + 7 = 518 which should be the number of the new seamless transferless route?

    Bathurst has better faster service when we have buses replacing streetcars. There were several informal surveys conducted of riders when buses were replacing streetcars on Queen St and the vast majority of riders were happier with bus service which was faster even during construction vs streetcars even when there is no construction. We need independent scientific studies comparing running times of streetcars vs buses. To me, buses seem so much faster but this issue needs to be studied scientifically.

    Steve: I already did this for Dundas using TTC vehicle tracking data. See Part I and Part II. There are links in Part I to my review of the Queen route.

    A few factors are at work here. First, there is always much more frequent service when the TTC replaces streetcars with buses because they overcompensate for the relative capacity of vehicles. Riders are sensitive to the length of wait for a vehicle, and the TTC’s inability to maintain regular headways while widening scheduled gaps in service combine to make bus replacements more attractive.

    Second, there is a fundamental difference in the way that bus drivers operate their vehicles compared to streetcars. Bus drivers tend to go as fast as possible and take long layovers at terminals. Streetcar drivers are under strict instructions to drive “safely” even when their schedules contain considerable padding. On Dundas, the buses tended to be faster than streetcars only in parts of the route that did not have substantial auto traffic.

    Recently, the vehicle tracking data I receive from the new VISION system that handles TTC bus routes has been substantially improved to give the same level of detail as the old CIS system that is still used on the streetcars (conversion of those vehicles is planned over the next few years now that the old cars are being retired). This will allow comparison of bus and streetcar operations on routes when they change between modes.

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30. Having the 121 run on King between Spadina and Church would go a long way to providing more reliable service to neighborhoods on both ends, especially during the afternoon peak. The difference is that it would directly serve the financial district instead of Union Station. Like any route change it would make it more inconvenient for some, while making it more convenient for others.

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31. @P.C. Kumar: Where in the comment you quoted did Steve say that the 511 was going to be a straight-shot ride from Steeles to Exhibition? The service split at Bathurst will remain, the only difference will be in what kind of vehicle you transfer to.

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32. I’d rather the 121 split into an eastern and western service at Union than have it run on King. For one, King is not an accessible station and there are a fair number of seniors along The Esplanade.

    As for Bathurst, I can see little benefit to running service from Exhibition to Steeles. The 7 is already troublesome enough. When I lived just off Bathurst, I’d walk to St. Clair West rather than take the 7 as it was usually slow, crowded, and subject to bunching.

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33. SBill | November 13, 2019 at 1:00 am

    I have never taken the 60 regularly, but I rode the 53 for several years and I can suggest one way to improve service on the 60 (and the 53) very easily: Make every one of them an express service until they reach Steeles. So many times I would just barely squeeze on to a 53, jam-packed as it left Finch and rattle along. We. Stopped. At. Every. Stop. On Yonge. By the time we got to Steeles, the crowd in the bus had thinned to the point that one could get a seat. Slowing down these vital and lengthy routes to provide a milk run on Yonge is dumb. Increase service on the 97 and make the 60 and 53 non-stop to Steeles.

    I have taken 60 and 53 on and off for the last 20 years and the only way this could work in theory is if you create a new branch of 97 running between Finch Station and Steeles with service every 5-10 min at rush hour and maybe every 10-15 min offpeak. Increasing service on the branch running from Davisville won’t work as the traffic along Yonge makes that branch very unreliable. I have seen northbound buses on 97 arrive within 5-10 min at Finch at rush hour when service should be every 30 minutes.

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34. Andrew: @P.C. Kumar: Where in the comment you quoted did Steve say that the 511 was going to be a straight-shot ride from Steeles to Exhibition? The service split at Bathurst will remain, the only difference will be in what kind of vehicle you transfer to.

    Where in the comment did P.C. Kumar state that the 511 was going to be a straight-shot-ride from Steeles to Exhibition? P.C. Kumar suggested combining 511 + 7 = 518 a new route providing a seamless transferless route connecting Bathurst and Steeles to Exhibition Place. P.C. Kumar did NOT state that such a route exists but that it SHOULD exist.

    Steve to iamme: Recently, the vehicle tracking data I receive from the new VISION system that handles TTC bus routes has been substantially improved to give the same level of detail as the old CIS system that is still used on the streetcars (conversion of those vehicles is planned over the next few years now that the old cars are being retired). This will allow comparison of bus and streetcar operations on routes when they change between modes.

    So, you want to compare streetcar service during no construction to bus service during construction in order to justify streetcar operation? That is not a very fair comparison. We need to compare streetcars vs bus operation times under the same conditions. I believe that Councillor Mike Ford proposed such a study on the 501 Queen route but you were up in arms because you knew that streetcars would not perform favourably. If you are confident that streetcars do indeed provide better service, then why do you fear any such studies as the one Councillor Mike Ford proposed?

    Steve: You really are full of crap expecting I would do that, but I have come to expect this. The comparisons I have always made are between buses and streetcars in non-construction conditions. There have been bus/streetcar substitutions that have to do with shortages of cars, not construction projects, and that’s the data I have used, and will use in the future. The problem with overcompensating with bus service is common to both situations, especially to construction where the assumption (not necessarily valid) is that more service is needed to counteract congestion.

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35. *stares at 25/925 changes*

    *cries*

    I swear this service already worsened several months ago, and that headway target for the 925 is a sad joke. I regularly see 20+ minute gaps for 925s at Lawrence, and often see people waiting for two or three buses before they can board during evening rush.

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36. The “511 Bathurst” will eventually become fully converted to the low-floor, accessible Flexity Outlooks, as the old streetcars (the CLRVs) get retired. I’ve read rumours that this route might revert to buses, which likely means going from a pleasant and comfortable and back to a bumpy and often uncomfortable ride, like the kind you would get on the “7 Bathurst” bus route which runs between Bathurst subway station and Steeles Avenue – unless there are additional deliveries of new Flexity Outlook streetcars from Bombardier. The reverting to buses would mean that “511 Bathurst” would use (the Flexity Outlook) streetcars only at time of events such as National Home Show & Canada Blooms (which happens in March 2020).

    Steve: Yes, 511 Bathurst will likely revert to buses when the streetcars come back onto Dundas sometime over the winter, but will operate with streetcars during “high season” for that route which also tends to coincide with construction projects that free up streetcars from other parts of the network.

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37. What!!!! The 60 down to every 10 minutes, the current service cant handle the volumes, well certainly at the times I catch it. I guess there will be no chance of me getting on the bus at Signet Drive….do they want to drive people off the system. Unless we get the artics!!!!!

    Steve: This is an example of the madness of the current regime at TTC. Avoiding short turns to keep that particular stat in good shape takes precedence over service frequency. Management gets a gold star while riders wait in the cold.

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38. Steve, what is the next construction project that will affect streetcar operation? When streetcars return to “505 Dundas”, which has been operating with buses for nearly two years (February 18, 2018), which route(s) will revert to buses?

    By the end of this year, the old streetcars will be retired, and the “506 Carlton” and “511 Bathurst” will become fully converted to the new low-floor Flexity Outlooks. Will there be additional deliveries of Flexity Outlooks in the near future, and how many will be delivered? What’s going to happen to the old streetcars?

    Steve: The list of projects for 2020 has not been announced yet although there is some preliminary information. The King-Queen-Ronces project was deferred from 2019, but it is not clear if it will go ahead in 2020. There is also a project on Dundas and Howard Park between College and High Park Loop. Bathurst has work planned at Bathurst Station, from Dundas to Wolseley Loop (north of Queen) and at the Front Street bridge. Long delayed trackwork is planned on Victoria from Dundas Square to Queen, and from Church & King to Wellington & Yonge. All of this is subject to change. Information from the TOInview site.

    Dundas will probably resume streetcar operation over the winter (February? but not yet announced), and Bathurst will return to bus operation. With track work planned on Bathurst for 2020, it will run as a bus for a good deal of the year.

    There are no additional Flexitys on order. The need for more streetcars is listed in the TTC’s gigantic $33 billion state of good repair backlog, but who knows when this project will be funded. Deliveries are now up to car 4592, although the highest number in service is 4588. The last car in the order will be 4603 for a total of 204 cars, although for the next few years the number actually in Toronto will be a bit lower as the first 70-odd cars go through welding repairs at Bombardier, a few at a time.

    As for the old cars, a few have gone or are going to museums, and a few will be retained by the TTC as part of their historic fleet. They will all be retired from revenue service at the end of 2019.

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39. In 2020, will the “511 Bathurst” route operate with streetcars when the Canadian National Exhibition (CNE) runs, which is from August 21 to September 7, 2020?

    Steve: This is quite likely as there will be construction elsewhere that will free up cars that can run on Bathurst during “high season”.

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40. Will the last CLRVs operate on the 511? I assume so, as whenever I go out, they’re always on 511.

    Steve: Possibly, although there is a finale in the works for the weekend of December 28-29 on Queen. No details yet.

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