With the beginning of service today (November 30, 2014), Presto is available on any of the new streetcars running on Spadina.
That said, the implementation is ill-conceived, and how this can possibly be rolled out successfully system-wide is a mystery.
At each doorway (and on both sides of the double-width doors) there is a Presto reader. So far so good — make it easy to tap on as people enter.
However, if you need a transfer (and lots of riders do), you have to go to one of the two TTC fare machines which are (a) on the other side of the car and (b) nowhere near two of the four doors. There, you tap again and the machine issues a transfer. All this assumes it’s not busy serving customers paying with cash or tokens.
Anyone who has been on one of the new cars when Spadina is busy will know that internal circulation just doesn’t happen. It’s hard enough to move around within the module where one boards, let alone get to another module where there’s a fare machine.
On the subway, the TTC doesn’t have this problem because transfer machines are available for all riders inside the paid area of a station, and a Presto rider is no different from someone who paid with another medium. Not so on the streetcars.
There is no sign of Presto support at the on street fare machines.
Why, oh why, wasn’t the Presto reader integrated with the TTC machines?
Meanwhile, we see another cocked up implementation of technology, one that TTC will get most of the blame for. Fortunately, there is little market penetration of Presto on TTC beyond downtown commuters because that’s the only place their card works. Until the TTC provides Metropass functionality via Presto, there is no incentive for the most frequent users to convert, and then it will have to work on all vehicles.
This has more the smell of publicity — “look what we did” — for the Presto project than it does of a useful addition to the system.
Half-baked would be a generous overstatement.
Steve Munro 
Ugh… it makes you wonder how the TTC will handle a larger roll-out. This is further proof that the TTC should install Presto on all new vehicles and the newest series of buses all at once.
They should not be doing this piecemeal without at least placing transfer machines on or next to the presto machines.
Even during the quietest times its still hard to use to fare machine as they are slow and by the time you get to your stop in some cases you cannot even get to the fare machine.
I have seen people off-peak ride from Queens Quay loop to Union on the 510 and not be able to use the machine due to other people taking their time either by not knowing how to use the machine or by the machine taking ITS time.
Let the good times roll Steve!
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If they want more immediate acceptance of Presto they need to do the following:
– Presto at all subway entrances
– Presto readers at all streetcar stops
– Discounted subway/new streetcar only Metropass purchase online – straight to presto card – with price increasing as the buses get converted – needs an automatic renewal feature
– Auto renewable monthly pass on GO Transit (all these people swiping who use the thing every day)
– If they moved all buses to proof of payment they could increase this further as the majority would likely switch to a metro/weekly pass on presto if it is auto-rewewed. This would mean only single use would not be served via Presto – and allow for getting rid of Metropass entirely.
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Good question. One would have assumed that with the Flexity production delays, the TTC would have implemented Presto support on the street machines first. Hell, one would have assumed that the TTC would have implemented Presto support on the street machines first regardless of the Flexity deliveries since it would have been an easier way to get the bugs out of the system.
Steve: The fare machines were late too, and it was only the delay in the Flexity rollout that prevented a situation where they would operate Spadina with conductors and hand-held fareboxes.
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Since Presto is a separate entity controlled by Metrolinx and the cash machines will be phased out eventually, could this be Presto’s decision? I use Presto on GO so I’ve never needed a transfer. On a side note they will be replacing the modified parking meters at the island stops with Presto machines.
Steve: Presto has always known that there would be a two-year co-existence period, and failure to provide for the option to issue fare receipts / transfers shows just how thick the folks running this project are. The TTC has been forced by Queen’s Park to take Presto, warts and all. Presto has had it easy for several years with very small scale roll outs and simple transit systems to support. Only when they got to Ottawa did they have to make the system more robust, and even that had major problems.
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First off, I took some pictures on my ride today in case anybody wants to see what everything looks like.
As for the implementation … honestly, I don’t think it’s too bad. We’re in agreement in that the door machines are fine – perfect, even, except that showing card balance might be the single thing I’d add.
The transfer process … yeah, that’s the kicker. Really, though, it wasn’t that bad to me – the machines have a very well-marked spot for presto transfers, they print it out quickly, and display your remaining card balance as a nice touch. I did this and it still took less time, including the two taps and picking up the transfer, than paying cash does, so isn’t it still an improvement? Also, anybody who just wants to ride and get off without transferring, or who wants to ride to Union or Spadina, can just tap at the door, you don’t have to get a transfer – a good number of 510 riders fit one of those two categories. I was told that you 100% don’t need a transfer in those cases, fare inspectors will have the handheld presto readers from now on, transfers are ONLY needed when transferring to legacy streetcars and buses.
I definitely said “are you kidding me?!?” when I first heard about the double-tap system, but I was thinking through it just now and honestly … I’m at a loss to come up with a better idea. Of course we could simply not deploy presto until they’re ready for it system-wide and can eliminate transfers and metropasses and everything day one, but that would take years … I’d rather have some support for those who want it now than nothing. Those who find it confusing or useless until metropass support comes can just ignore it, those who want it can stop carrying tokens or carry fewer … who really loses here? I don’t know, it’s not perfect, but it seems like the best option at present … I’m definitely very interested to hear if any of you think there’s a better option on how to do it now including the need for transfers, I’ve been trying to think through it myself and I’ve come up empty.
Steve: There are two problems both related to issuing transfers: first, there isn’t a transfer machine in every section of the car. Someone who taps on at the front or back door has to push their way through a crowded car (impossible) to reach the transfer machine. Second, there are no Presto/transfer machines on the platforms where people could “pay” their fares in advance. Spadina has the luxury of having subway stations with closed fare areas at both ends, and these are the primary destination of many riders. But think about people who use intersecting routes and the challenge of keeping track of whether they are Presto equipped and running PoP or not.
Remember this is the TTC we are talking about, an organization that can’t even manage to get the right buses and streetcars out on routes scheduled for larger vehicles. What happens when someone tries to get on, say, a Dufferin bus that should, but doesn’t have a Presto reader? How do they convince the operator they have a valid fare?
The TTC talks a good line about their newfound customer orientation, but implementations like this make me laugh. The best I can hope is that the majority of the problem lies with Presto, and the TTC is stuck with their implementation. If the TTC actually “designed” this, someone needs a new job.
On a side note, hopefully we can all agree that the new cash machines are VASTLY improved over the red ones, stating clearly that change is not given, and now allowing you to purchase multiple fares in one transaction – I was informed they will then print a receipt for the entire transaction, and individual transfers for each fare in case the party splits up. They also have the placeholder menu option for tap payment via Interac/Visa/Mastercard/ETC which will also hopefully allow multiple fares per transaction/tap. Hope they deploy them to the stops to replace the red ones soon, those were a bit of a design nightmare; presumably future routes, at least, will start out with the new ones at busy stops. Hopefully they could have a presto payment machine mounted on their right side, like the ticket validator they have attached on the left, that way people waiting at the stop could pay and get their transfer to avoid the circulation problems you mentioned, Steve. Would love to see the self-serve reload machines hit subway stations too. Also, hooray for 4404.
Steve: I agree that the new machines are much better, but this system cannot work properly until most of the transactions occur on the platform, not on the car, including the printing of “transfers”.
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I was stunned to hear about the fare machines on new vehicles. It boggles the mind. The TTC’s mental failures run so deep it’s hard to imagine they can ever fix themselves.
Even though Presto’s imposition on the TTC and others by the province is egregious, it is not enough to explain this rollout.
At the heart of the issue is the TTC’s adherence to a bespoke transfer regime, which nearly everywhere else has jettisoned. The TTC has had decades to fix this issue and failed to do so.
Time just ran out on this transfer.
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On a funny note, I just read this article from CTV news about 4404 and Presto. It’s amazing to me that in this day and age news agencies manage to do such poor work and just don’t fact check things, i.e. this gem from the article:
Wow.
Steve: The crews that handle weekend coverage are not exactly the A-list of the news team.
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Arguably the worst thing about Presto is how redundant it might become with proof-of-payment and time-based transfers. A few years ago I spent a month in Innsbruck, Austria, a city of about 150,000, but with a transit system that functioned smoothly and seamlessly (mostly buses and a few tram routes). You could easily buy individual tickets or monthly passes, but of course you’d scarcely ever actually need to show them to a fare inspector, let alone scan them into some kind of contraption on the bus. You could buy them from machines around the city, and in the train station you could buy them from the same machine offering train tickets to almost anywhere in Europe. Visa/debit were readily accepted, of course, and probably other cards as well.
Beyond the simple fare system, many bus routes ran on 5 minute (or less!) headways during peak periods, with 10-15 minutes off-peak. Or better. My route into the hospital was served by 2 or 3 different routes along a common corridor. There were electronic signs at most stops showing when the next buses (and their routes) were expected. And there were night buses too. To say that the level of organization and service exceeded essentially any transit anywhere in Canada (or even North America – yes, including NYC) would be pretty obvious.
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Because, from what I can tell, the TTC doesn’t want anything to do with PRESTO! If the TTC wanted PRESTO then they would have been more proactive up to now. For example, why are the PRESTO machines not in every subway station yet if the TTC supported PRESTO?
Steve: Well for starters, there is the cost of implementation. Also, until Presto version 2 was rolled out for Ottawa, the system was incapable of handling a transit system like the TTC. The first version was built for a different technological era, and Ontario squeezed as much out of that technology as it could. As others have pointed out, the era of a homegrown, closed fare system is ending.
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I’m still not clear: can I put in a ticket or token?
Many years ago, my uncle from Scotland was on a bus at Islington station watching the passengers board; I think back when there was a zone system. He saw some put money in the box, some put in a ticket or token, some gave the driver a piece of paper, some showed the driver a piece of paper.
He asked the fellow next to him what they were doing. “Fares” was the reply.
Steve: If you have a ticket, you insert it into the ticket canceller beside the fare machine. This becomes your transfer. If you have a token, you put it in the fare machine (although you have to tell it first that this is what you intend to do), and then it gives you a receipt/transfer. Same for cash fares. I saw a group of five get on 4404 today, and even at a reasonably quick pace, they had not completed their transactions before we reached the next stop.
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The double-tap seems a bit unnecessary.
Has anyone tried simply tapping first on the new fare machine? I wouldn’t be surprised if it simply processes the fare, and issues a transfer.
Presumably they’ll now proceed in replacing those interim vending machines on Spadina. There seems to be a lot of angst about the temporary stuff. It would be nice if Presto worked everywhere day 1. But I don’t see a big issue with having to wait a bit longer for them to put the new fare machines on the street. Installing them before now would simply have created confusion, with all the Presto Green, and no Presto functionality.
And even the two-tap situation is temporary. Once Presto is rolled out across TTC, it will become long forgotten.
Perhaps a bigger step today was that TTC started charging discounted fares on Presto for Seniors, Children, and Students. It’s always been kind of odd that I’ve had to use children’s tickets in a Presto-enabled subway station, despite having a child’s Presto card in my wallet for GO Transit. Though I’m amused that the Presto website indicates that the 60-cent child fares are for Children 6-12.
I wonder what happens when I got the Presto outlet at Davisville and ask for a Presto card for the 2-year old. Though I suppose if they are difficult I just get an “extra” one for the 7-year old, and let the 2-year old use it (given their site makes it clear that Presto cards are transferable even for children, seniors, and students (assuming that you are eligible for such fares). I doubt they’ll really bust be for letting a 2-year old use a Presto Card, that their website says you have to be 6 to use. 🙂
Steve: I suspect that the TTC fare machine queries the Presto card to see if it has a valid fare on it from the same car, and then issues a receipt.
Everyone may forget this arrangement once Presto is fully implemented, but that’s two years by the current schedule. Once upon a time, the Spadina line would have been completely converted to Flexities BEFORE Presto was implemented, but that would have required an equally kludgey interim way to collect “old” fares.
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Steve wrote:
“Also, until Presto version 2 was rolled out for Ottawa, the system was incapable of handling a transit system like the TTC. ”
Steve, Mississauga Transit, Oakville Transit, Hamilton Street Railway, etc. have all implemented PRESTO before Ottawa and have multiple prices on available through PRESTO – adult, senior, student, and GO co-fare. Plus, the PRESTO system remembers and provide for an e-transfer, and if taking the local transit system to the GO train will charge you the normal fare and then automatically correct the fares once you tap on GO Transit. They have no problems with this, yet the TTC only has adult fares on PRESTO, with no e-transfers or GO co-fares.
How on Earth is the TTC’s system different? So, I am sorry to say that this is nothing more than an excuse for the TTC.
Steve: The initial implementation of Presto on TTC was adult fares only, and this is only now being expanded to other fare types. The business about Presto Next Generation being required for Ottawa and Toronto comes from Presto itself, and so there is something about the original version that was a known limitation.
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In Brampton the fare system consists of 3 parts. The Presto reader stores a 2 hour transfer period and does not require a transfer. A cash fare in the fare box will produce a 2 hour transfer for use by the customer. All 3 devices are close together and operate fast enough (even the transfer printer) that there is no significant delay in boarding. Presto fares are significantly lower than cash fares and most people use Presto.
Steve: I think an important issue with GTA systems that have implemented Presto is that they have done so across their entire fleet fairly quickly avoiding the need for a co-existence period. TTC didn’t trust Presto to be able to pull off that sort of change and given the teething problems in Ottawa, I don’t blame them. People forget that less than two years ago, the Ottawa folks had senior Metrolinx people on the carpet explaining why their system did not perform to spec. This is the context in which TTC was planning its own roll out.
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P.S.
It crosses my mind that if the on-board vending machine only issues Presto transfers, and not tickets, it doesn’t have to be connected to the network. It can issue transfers based simply on the most recent transaction which is stored on the card. Which might be the explanation. Particularly while they haven’t (as far as I know) enabled anything yet to not charge you twice (say if you stay tap on at Spadina station and then later tap on when you board the streetcar at the Spadina platform). So that way you can get a transfer when already on the streetcar, without being charged a second time.
Though if that’s the way it works, I wonder what happens if you get a transfer from the first machine, if you tap it a second time, or tap the other machine (or a machine on a second vehicle after you transfer) … will it give you a second paper transfer?
This might be interesting, if they haven’t thought through all the permutations …
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Are the fare inspectors carrying Presto readers now?
If I enter Union with my Presto card and board a Spadina streetcar, is the tap of my Presto sufficient proof of payment, or do I need to take a paper transfer?
Steve: Yes, they are supposed to have Presto readers.
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You are most likely correct.
Though I wonder how they’d implement this on the replacement vending machines on the street. They’d have to go one of two directions. One choice is to not accept Presto until it’s universally available. The second is to issue the process the Presto, and obviously issue the transfer. Ultimately it seems odd that the machines on the street would be behaving differently than the machines on the vehicle.
(though on the bright side, perhaps once the permanent machines are in place, if they don’t take Presto, they might at least be able to issue the transfer for those who tapped on the streetcar, after they get off).
Though surely someone will try this shortly, and report what it does if you tap on the vending machine before tapping on at the door.
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This is classic Andy Byford approach. Focus on the superficials to make it look like he is doing something just like with the useless dropping of the consistent line names to introduce an inconsistent line numbering system. Wasting money on superficial things has come to characterize TTC under the “leadership” of Andy Byford. I hope that John Tory will name a replacement soon.
Steve: I think this is as much a Presto cock up as a TTC one.
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Because the TTC machines will disappear at some point, but the Presto machines are forever.
Steve: Nothing prevents them from being installed side by side if all you want to do is spit out a transfer rather than deal with a multitude of other fare types.
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I was forgetting about people paying with cash – although those people are worth separating from everyone else (who will be just wanting to tap their card get on).
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If you’re in Hamilton, they are waiving the $6 card fee at certain supermarkets (while supplies last). Information here.
What other fees are there that one may face when getting and attempting to use PRESTO? Is there other fine-print? Can we transfer the card to other family members or friends so they can use it?
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There are a lot of problems with PRESTO card. It’s time to allow payment with smartphones and debit cards and credit cards.
Links to Bytemark and to an article about Bytemark’s contract to provide the ticketing system for UPX.
Steve: It is amusing that even Metrolinx can see that casual visitors to Toronto are not going to use Presto to ride the UPX.
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Oh, so many ways this project can slip by months or years….
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If you read the crazytrain blog you will see that Presto is still having a lot of problems. I use it periodically to ride GO into Toronto and my son uses it on Brampton and Mississauga Transit to get to work. It has worked fine for us but neither of us will trust it to make automatic top ups from our bank accounts.
It is interesting that UPX will have the ability to use smart phones and bank cards so that people from out of town can use the system seamlessly but Presto won’t be able to for a while. As you have said Steve this is another example of Ontario wasting time and money to invent something that is not needed and probably at least one, if not two, iterations out of date.
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Brad Ross said (admittedly about another project):
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I am in Ottawa and went through the very difficult roll-out of Presto. Give the TTC a break here, it was horrible.
While Metrolinx had the complexity of dealing with a different RFID system (STO, Gatineau, Qc) Ottawa is considerably smaller as a system than the TTC with only buses and a very small train line. And still it was delay after delay and snafu. Metrolinx absorbed most of the extra costs, but in the end the City of Ottawa was left with a very expensive bill for a system it did not want.
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So what will this system look like when it’s fully rolled out? Since the whole network will be proof-of-payment, I hope that means:
– All door boarding on all buses/streetcars,
– removal of all fare gates/turnstiles (this would also make secondary exits more useful)
– phasing out of fare booth attendants
– replacing all tickets, tokens, passes with the single presto card.
Is this the plan?
Steve: More or less, although for the moment the TTC is not talking about getting rid of cash fares. This will require the continued existence of machines to handle them, but it’s a political hot potato because many poor riders do not want to be forced into using prepaid media. There is a proposal to go quickly to all door loading even before vehicles convert to Presto to gain the advantage of better distribution of passengers in available space.
I’m not sure about plans for secondary exits, but will ask.
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I don’t see how TTC can achieve a transition short of anything but a full simultaneous roll-out. If it’s a switch from tokens, I’m not going give them up if I don’t know if I can rely on Presto to be available anywhere I’d need to pay my fare. If I need to buy tokens anyway, then why bother with the hassle of topping up a Presto card as well? And this goes double if I am a Metropass user; I can’t just wave a Presto card to a bus operator like I do my Metropass. It reminds me of two changes that Canada and the U.S. tried to make at relatively similar times: introduction of the metric system, and introduction of a dollar coin. We went “all in” (OK, not entirely for metric, but enough that it stuck for key sectors), whereas the U.S. did not.
But having said that, I don’t know that I would want to go “all in” with Presto. People complain about 19th-century fare technology, but it works and it doesn’t require ten pages of fine print to explain how to use it (“Step 1: Insert token into fare box. Step 2: collect transfer. Step 3: show transfer to driver on next vehicle” or “Step 1: Show Metropass to driver.”). The transfer rules and system are another story (and one that really has barely changed in 100 years or more), but that doesn’t require a changeover to Presto to accomplish.
(And to contradict myself: I can see how my position might be different if I was a regular, or even occasional, user of non-TTC local systems, or vice versa, rather than have to find somewhere to buy YRT tickets.)
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It is hard to imagine these cars operating with hand-held fareboxes. I suspect that the temptation would then have been to force all boarding through a single or couple of doors, to allow a single or couple of collectors to collect all fares… that would have been as disaster.
While I applaud the TTC for not taking the lead, and doing their best to stay off the bleeding edge, I wish as a province we would instead look around for the best existing implementations, and buy those. If there is something working that has already suffered the teething pain, there should be no desire to invent something from scratch. The city and province needs to get past the idea that we need to have our own systems and nothing a custom system for us will do. Tends to be expensive, suffer delays, and adds a lot of pain and uncertainty. {This goes double for transit technologies themselves}.
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I got a Presto card the day after GO disallowed 10-ride tickets, but at least the card was free. I hadn’t used it for quite a few months, and when I went to check my (low) balance, it did not work whatsoever. I didn’t register the card (just as I don’t care to register my Metropass, or my blue token caddy for that matter), but the kicker is that apparently I have to pay to get a new Presto card (this according to the booth attendant).
Guess what, the GO fares within 416 have kept going up, and I don’t have much need or interest in taking the GO trains from Long Branch. My Metropass is much more useful, and if it’s in my pocket, I might as well take TTC.
So, I suppose I’ll get another Presto card when the TTC discontinues Metropasses and tokens, but not before.
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Given what I’m seeing and hearing I will absolutely refuse to get involved with the Presto system or these fare machines until such time as the physical Metropass is eliminated. As long as I have a Metropass I never have to so much as touch a fare machine or a tap-reader. The system cannot possibly work at the rate of transactions required – not in terms of data but in terms of access to the machines and time per transaction due to the volume of riders having to access the machines simultaneously whether on or off the vehicles at certain times of day in many locations. It is also nonsense to be implementing this as a patchwork of routes and the particular vehicles on them. They should stick to having the fare system operational on a small set of routes to determine everything that must be improved and to avoid having to enable the unnecessary printing of paper transfers for Presto users on EVERY vehicle before the full rollout. Only then should they finish installing the machines on all remaining vehicles before finally having the system go live all at once. It’s too confusing, too complicated and time consuming as it stands as proven in service so far.
As I observed on Spadina, people are so uninformed and, more critically, so unintuitive that they were all boarding at the front door of the new cars and trying to cram their fares into the cab door handle because they were expecting an ordinary farebox. It was truly mind-boggling to watch in action. (I would love to use less gracious language but I will refrain.) We can’t put staff on every streetcar and bus in the city to explain how all this works to everyone and in every language. Also, imagine how extraordinarily confusing a partial rollout would be to tourists and occasional/out-of-town riders. And what of the blind or physically-disabled?
From what I remember reading, the Presto system and every other complication that has arisen from it are being plowed through into effect because access to the volume of ridership in the Toronto system and the associated fees gained behind the scenes were the only thing that could make the whole Ontario system financially viable for the program operator. It certainly feels like there is an attempt to gain access to as many new Presto transactions and new financial accounts as possible, and as quickly as possible, no matter what disaster or cost is borne by the individual transit system and its local funding base. I need to see that this system works without stupid bugs that put the onus of proof on me. At the moment I do not have full confidence in any portion of the Presto experience and I’m very concerned about what’s going to happen when such a huge volume of new users and transactions is added.
By the way – Have there been figures published for how much each of these various machines costs and how much it costs to maintain them? Will there be anything redundant in the current equipment investment once the rollout is complete? (Like the red machines already disappearing so soon.) Has there been any talk of disposable RFID-based tickets as is common on other transit systems? I was just in Montreal and using an RFID disposable 3-day pass was a breeze. The only thing that went wrong was a flaky reader on one bus but the driver just waved me through.
Steve: The short answer to your last question is “no”.
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A few thoughts:
1) Almost ever major transit system in North America has managed this transition in the last 10 years…surely there’s learned wisdom or even standardized systems available for purchase.
2) Some cities are already on the next generation of transit systems. In Chicago recently, I was able to load a multi-day transit pass to my contactless credit card. I would just use my credit card to tap in and out…so easy! If you didn’t have a pass, it would just charge the card directly. Washington DC is not far out as well. At this point, why not just jump directly to NFC cards and devices and bypass a new fare media system?
3) I went through the conversion process in San Francisco…it took a long time and was a bit painful, but that’s because there are 12+ local transit agencies involved and BART (which makes money off the float) was especially a difficult prima donna. The system there now can handle distance-based fares (like BART), flat-rate fares, and time-based transfers (like MUNI), as well as monthly passes. It can also give you discounts (albeit small) for transfers between agencies. Now, it generally works seamlessly and all-door boarding has really sped up its streetcars (which like ours are a bit annoying at times).
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Maybe Presto sucks, but you should be pointing blame where it belongs: at the TTC’s ridiculous and horribly broken transfer system. If the entire network went to PoP and time-based transfers, which would be the best possible outcome from almost any measure, then the problem disappears. This is most definitely the TTC’s problem.
Steve: The TTC proposed going to a time-based fare next year, but various Mayoral candidates (including the one I supported) have been talking against it because it will cost money. When will we be free from the bean counters?
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The largest roll out so far has been Ottawa with 935 buses, 88 wheel trans buses, 9 light rail cars plus, I presume, some BRT stations. Compare with with Toronto with 204 new street cars, 1851 buses and 69 rapid transit stations. I am not sure if the buses in Ottawa have more than 1 Presto machine but when Toronto does all door loading there will have to be at least 2 on single section buses and 3 on the artics. On the street cars there will apparently be 6 Presto machines, in addition there will be at least one at each rapid transit station but probably a lot more.
A very rough count gives 3700 machines for bus plus another 170 for the artics, 1224 for the new street cars, and probably on average 5 for the rapid stations or 350. I believe that there will be some at busy stops such as on Spadina. This looks like a minimum requirement of over 5500 Presto machines plus spares. This is going to take a lot of time AND money to do the retrofitting of all the vehicles, stations and surface stops to handle the machines. Is the TTC or Metrolinx responsible for the maintenance on them Steve? Are the CLRVs and ALRVs going to get them until they are scrapped?
These machines are at least one generation out of date as most major operators are switching to being able to read smart phones or credit cards with near field RFID. The TTC was forced to accept these to get funding from the province. It does not seem to matter which party is in power as they always come up with some bright, new, made in Ontario technology to completely screw up transit. Don’t blame the TTC for taking this system as they did not have much choice. I only hope they have had a good set of lawyers write the contracts to make Metrolinx pay up for all the screw ups. I believe that the new system in Chicago last year was charging some people 2 or 3 times for one ride while letting most ride for free. The company paid the CTA a lot of money to cover those losses.
Steve: Presto is supposed to carry all of the maintenance costs in return for the set handling fee that they charge the TTC. By contract this fee cannot be higher than the TTC’s current fare handling costs. Note that the supposed savings of moving to Presto will almost certainly all be eaten up by the cost of operating it.
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I suspect, or at least hope, that the hand held fare collection would have been done at each stop. It would have been wasteful, but at least it wouldn’t have been a disaster if they had tried to implement it on the cars themselves.
Actually, as anyone in the retail industry knows, you never phase out the human point of contact when it comes to interactions with customers. What would happen would be the booth attendants would take over more roles in station operations with job reductions happening behind the scenes.
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Steve,
While on 4403 earlier I ran into a Presto rep named Giselle I believe who claims she spoke to you before. Apparently she knows you.
I asked about the transfer situation and she said and I quote. “He (Steve Munro) is wrong. You don’t always need a transfer. You only need it when getting on buses” Then I asked her about transfer on streetcars.
She said “Oh yea.. you need it on the old cars too.. but not on the subways. He is wrong because he did not ask about the subways. You do not need a transfer if you are going to the subway!”
I have since lost all faith in the TTC and their Presto reps. I mean who knew you did not need a transfer in a fare paid area!
Steve: Yes, she knows me, and she has the story cocked up. I KNOW that you don’t need a transfer to go to the subway, but many people plan to connect with a surface vehicle somewhere in their trip, and it may not be via a fare-paid area. As you say, there are the intersecting streetcar lines (not to mention the Wellesley bus), places like Dufferin Station that don’t have a closed transfer, and any surface-to-surface transfer that may happen later in the trip. I am willing to bet that she cannot recite all of the locations where a transfer might be required. The rule of thumb for travel is “get a transfer” on the off chance you will need it later. This will be especially important if we move to a two-hour fare because subsequent, non-Presto equipped hops within the two hours will require it.
I agree that the degree to which staff simply do not understand the complexities of the fare system as it is now and as it will evolve is rather mind-boggling.
BTW my criticism was not just of Presto on Spadina, but on future routes like Dundas where far fewer riders, as a proportion of the total, originate at or are going to a subway station, not to mention what will happen when we get to the bus network.
The situation at Spadina and Union Stations is itself rather a mixed bag (presuming fare inspectors are present):
If you have a pass of some flavour, all is well, just show the pass.
If you are getting off of a CLRV, you need a transfer (from the Spadina car or a connecting route) to prove that you paid somewhere.
If you are getting off of a Flexity, you need a transfer (from a connecting route), or a fare receipt (from the Spadina car) as proof of payment.
Any inspection takes place in areas that are not designed for congested passenger flow, especially at Spadina where the platform still isn’t completed even though the line was shut down for this work in the summer (expected completion by late December).
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W. K. Lis said:
The only other fee that I have found is the 25 cent charge for re-enabling a card that has a negative balance. If your card is registered, you are permitted one tap if the balance is not zero but not enough for the fare charged. This will lock the card and one must visit a place where one can top it up in person. The charge for unlocking is 25 cents plus the negative balance, and this must be done in person even if there is a load pending from an online top-up.
For those not familiar with how this works, here is a general overview…
The card stores your active balance, so the transaction when tapping on is as quick as possible since it does not have to communicate with a back end (like a Tim’s card does while they get your coffee). When you top it up online, it is not available until your card receives news of the top-up, and you will not see your added balance online until the back end receives news that your card has received the top-up.
News of your top-up must propogate throughout the ENTIRE Presto network since you could very well be using your card on a bus in Hamilton or on the O-Train in Ottawa. When you tap-on at a terminal that knows of your top-up, it tells your card first before taking the fare, so you won’t go negative. The issue that one must be aware of that can lead to the terminal not receiving word of your top-up is that moving terminals on vehicles are on their own, so to speak, during the day and only receive updates when they are at the garage or carhouse overnight. Even then, it may not get an update the odd night, so it can take 48 hours for you to see your top-up on your card and possibly another 48 hours before it appears in the back end if you want to check on it online.
I have had situations where I didn’t do a top-up as early as I wanted, so I’ll run out the evening before I know I will need the top-up to the GO station near me to use the balance check terminal. It has the capabilities to tell your card about the top-up and because it is not a mobile terminal, it gets updates throughout the day. The same goes for terminals at subway stations as well as VIVA stations in York Region.
If you are really last minute, doing an in-person top-up will get it on the card right away.
A Presto card is transferrable to someone else, as long as they are the same fare class or lower – they just cannot be travelling at the same time as you. To help prevent pass-backs, terminals will not accept the tap of a card that was recently tapped on the same terminal within a certain time period.
Now, like passing a transfer that is still valid to someone else, you are not supposed to give your Presto card to someone else while there is still a valid fare in effect. That said, there is no way to tell if this has happened or not.
Registering a Presto card as a “Senior”, “Student”, or “Child” card with one system gives it that same status on all systems. Provided, of course, that the other system has implemented that concession fare. On YRT, and I suspect on other systems, when one taps on with a card set up for a concession fare, the “fare accepted” tone that the terminal makes is noticably different from the regular adult fare tone. Presumably, on a pay-as-you-enter vehicle the operator would take notice if the person using the card that made the non-standard tone did not appear to be elligible for the concession fare.
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We just spent 3 weeks in NYC. The subways and buses there use a MetroCard which can be loaded with either a dollar amount or unlimited travel for a set period. The card (wallet sized, cardboard) goes either in the turnstiles or a reader in the bus. If you move between subway and bus in a certain time, the new vehicle doesn’t charge you.
I don’t know where you buy cards outside the subway, but each subway station has a pile of of vending machines plus a booth attendant. The attendant only takes cash; the machines take either and one machine in each set (the blue one) will handle foreign credit cards — give your postal code as 00000.
The cards also work on the PATH system to New Jersey but I don’t know if the accounting systems are integrated; we kept separate cards.
However, not all the transit systems take it. Bergen-Hudson Light Rail have their own tickets, as do New Jersey buses and the New York Waterways.
Using the card on the buses is a tad slower than using swipe cards in the Toronto subway (are those still around?)
Steve: Yes, the swipe cards — Metropasses — are still very much with us and there is no delay in using them.
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Kevin’s comment:
Sigh… So we spend a gazillion dollars on conversion and get no benefit. The present system works well. Tokens work just fine for me. Using a Metropass is far more convenient than the proposed Presto system.
So, let me forecast the future. Gazing deep into my crystal ball, here is what I see: When the politicians who forced Presto on us retire from politics, they are going to be getting lucrative seats on the board of directors and/or jobs as “consultants” with…
But we all know how that sentence ends, don’t we.
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Following up on my previous comment, I ask myself the question, “It is possible to easily tweak the present system to accommodate all-door-boarding on the new streetcars?”
Why, yes. All it would take is off-board vending machines that would give a transfer in exchange for a token or cash payment. This would actually be far easier to use than the current proposed way of using Presto and getting a transfer on-board the new streetcars.
As a professional Accountant, I am used to doing cost/benefit analysis for proposed projects. The Presto conversion appears to have lots of cost, but precious little benefit.
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There have been a couple of comments about Ottawa and Washington DC so I thought I’d mention a few things.
In Ottawa, regular buses have 1 reader at the front door. Double Decker buses and Articulated buses have 2 and 3 readers respectively, one at each door, since they allow for all-door boarding. The reader at the front of the bus is connected to the existing driver’s touchscreen, so they can see the fare class of the person who has tapped and process double transactions. The bus readers are the same model used on the new street cars, but the Toronto ones a have different logos in the “tap zone” and different screen displays. There are no readers on the trains, only fixed platform readers. Even with only one reader at the front door, PRESTO is far faster than paying by ticket or cash.
In Washington, I believe the contract to modernize their fare system has gone to Accenture and will be based on PRESTO, so we should see the benefits of the development that their system generates.
Steve: An important point about Ottawa was that it was a “big bang” implementation an did not have to deal with a transitional configuration with Presto available on a small subset of vehicles, routes and stations (except during a testing period). In DC, the technology will be implemented on a system that is already largely based on card, not ticket, technology, and (amazingly) will offer a variety of other media that are not part of the Toronto rollout although they are promised for a future phase (credit cards, smart phone apps, etc). This capability did not exist in Presto when the TTC was first looking at the system.
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