Finally! A Dundas West GO Connection (Updated)

Updated March 24 at 9:00 pm: Metrolinx has published the materials from the Open House.  Of particular interest is the presentation which shows the proposed changes to the area around Bloor GO Station and Dundas West TTC Station.

In the first phase, the north sidewalk of Bloor Street would be redesigned to widen and otherwise beautify the access to the GO level from the sidewalk in the underpass.  Also, a connection from Dundas West Station would be added at the east end of the platform.  (Page 33 of the presentation shows details of the subway to GO link.)

In later phases, the streetcar loop at Dundas West would be redesigned so that all access was from Edna Avenue with traffic signals.  This could be a mixed blessing given the level of transit service at this location.

Original post below:

Metrolinx has announced an open house for the Dundas West-Bloor Mobility Hub Study.

Date: Wednesday, March 23, 2011
Time: 6 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.
Venue: Lithuanian House
1573 Bloor Street West

Further background can be found in The Star.

Dundas West Station was built before GO existed, much less had service on the Weston corridor, but a connection could be built from the east end of the platform to what is now Bloor Station on the rail line.  However, a major development, the Crossways, was not on top of the subway when it opened in 1966, and any connection must deal with this building.

55 thoughts on “Finally! A Dundas West GO Connection (Updated)

  1. So Steve, forgive me if its in the article (but I didn’t see it) .. has the issue of how to address ‘Crossways’ been worked out?

    PS. if this comes to fruition it will be a very sensible and overdue investment in both GO and the TTC.

    Steve: I don’t know what the new proposed design looks like yet, but, yes, the connection is long overdue.

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  2. Maybe the prospect of an airport rail link was actually positive for the crossways owners; who wouldn’t want a steady stream of tourists through their dilapidated property?

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  3. Hopefully the material being presented at the open house will be posted on online soon.

    Related point: the upgrades to the Milton line include adding a station at Bloor (See GO Benefits Case Analysis at page 20), providing a better access point to the BD than Kipling. Maybe GO will be able to get over its aversion to a station being served by multiple lines.

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  4. Fun with Numbers and Tax dollars and Metrolinx

    Just a bit of fun with the logic of Metrolinx numbers (which Steve Munro always calls into question).

    “Only about 200 riders a day use the Bloor GO station. That number is expected to shoot up to between 500 and 1,000 for the opening day of the airport train in 2015.

    By 2031, Metrolinx is projecting 2,000 riders will use the station daily.”

    200 people use the station now for commuting downtown mostly.

    1000 people will start going to airport at 25$ bucks a pop in 2015.

    Only 800 additional riders will in theory start to use the station to head downtown 15 years later?

    That is a lot of money and time for 2000, maybe, people.

    As most people ask, how many more people would use the station if it was electric trains and therefore could have additional stops at Queen, St. Clair, and further north making it a real commuter line affordable to THOUSANDS of daily commuters? Or wouldn’t a downtown relief line be money better spent?

    As a current comparison, 485,000 people a day use Bloor and Yonge station and many lines such as the King Streetcar line carry almost 50,000 people a day.

    2031; 2000 people? Makes you wonder. If they don’t get electric this will become the most subsidized hub in history. : )

    Steve: I hate to say this, but the demand at Bloor will be influenced less by electrification than by a convenient link to the subway. More stations on the line as you describe are unlikely. Eglinton, yes, to connect with the future rapid transit line, whatever it may be, but St. Clair and Queen are very unlikely.

    I wonder if we will see the TTC propose an unmanned station with only high gate turnstiles — just the sort of thing a traveller to/from an airport would love to deal with.

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  5. I don’t know about you, but if I were the owner of the Crossways, I’d be jumping to get in on this deal. The mall is currently dying. If these guys play their cards right, they become a second entrance to both the subway and the GO station. They significantly increase their foot traffic and breathe new life into the facility.

    It’s like a mini-Union underground city.

    Steve: I am not sure it will benefit the mall all that much. The entrance to the subway will be through the parking garage at the east end of the site, and there would be little incentive for a transferring passenger to go into the mall proper.

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  6. While retail space is obviously more use to a developer if it is leased and has lots of traffic, one shouldn’t forget that the Crossways was a “zoning” play from the start and the retail was added to justify the complex, not because there was a demand for it. Similarly, the east tower – all bachelors – was originally approved based on zoning incentives to encourage hotel construction. It was never used as a hotel to my knowledge. When I lived there circa 1981 the barebones kitchens (counter top hot plates and small fridges – no stove) in the “hotel” rooms and the monthly rental to tenants were the subject of some debate with the City. I don’t know how this impasse was eventually solved but obviously the rental apartments still stand.

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  7. Gentlemen, you can make fun of our friends at GO/METROLINX. Please do not forget that GTHA is permanently expanding area and everything will be possible in 2030. If you’d like to have some laugh at a transfer station, you may enjoy following link to photos from German city Gera.

    Look at picture in the middle under the last heading – the translation says – there you are,wasn’t it fun to wait for ONE passenger?

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  8. I’ve always wondered how much use Bloor, and most Toronto based GO stations, get on a daily basis. More importantly, who uses them and how are they used.

    Taking Bloor as an example, since it has no parking and spotty transit connections, are the only people who use it those who live around the stop, or do people transfer on to it from TTC routes and walk in? Is it common to see people lock their bikes in and around the station as a means to get to it, since there is no parking? During the morning rush, generally speaking how crowded are the platforms compared to other GO stations along the line? And is it common to see people get off the train in the morning and get back on in the evening, because their employment is located in western Toronto or along the Bloor-Danforth line, while they live up in Weston, Brampton, or beyond?

    Getting specific numbers for GO train station is hard enough, let alone travel patterns. If anyone here uses the Georgetown line, or even better the Bloor GO station their views on these questions would be much appreciated.

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  9. More stations on the line as you describe are unlikely. Eglinton, yes, to connect with the future rapid transit line, whatever it may be, but St. Clair and Queen are very unlikely.

    The distance between stations for Bloor to Queen and Bloor to St. Clair exceeds the 2km minimum standard Metrolinx/GO wants between their stations (some existing stations are already as close together as 2km). These stations may not come easy, but they are fair game if they electrify with EMUs. As we both witnessed at the Metrolinx Board meeting where they approved the electrification study, the Board hasn’t wedded themselves to a specific electric vehicle type (there was a fair amount of discussion about it, which demonstrated a high interest for more info on EMUs). GO is actively considering a station at St Clair for the Barrie line, and there is still interest in a station at Bloor for the Barrie service from at least the City as well (the City has a secondary plan anticipating such a station with a pedestrian tunnel to link with the subway). As for Queen, GO and the City had jointly been pursuing a station at King a decade ago, a station which has since become physically impossible with the Strachan grade separation, and Queen is the next closest feasible alternative.

    If GO/Metrolinx wants to get decent levels of off-peak ridership, which is necessary to financially sustain such off-peak service, then additional stations, much closer together than the current network average provides, are essential to serve more trip patterns. With at least 3 tracks in the corridor (which applies to significant stretches of both Georgetown and Lakeshore), a model that runs both express and local services during at least the peak direction at peak times is viable as well, to keep service for longer trips attractive.

    There’s nothing technical that stands in the way of such stations; this is determined by politics. For politicians that value the economic performance of an all-day service rail network as envisioned by Metrolinx for the 2030 horizon, such stations, if well designed (and Union Station issues permitting), would be in their interest.

    Steve: I have to scratch my head about a St. Clair station on the Newmarket sub (Barrie line). These trains will have a good connection to the Spadina subway at Sheppard West Station, and I’m not sure Caledonia and St. Clair would be the ideal place for people to make a connection between the regional and local system. Don’t forget that Metrolinx’ plans put a “Mobility Hub” anywhere two lines come even vaguely near each other, whether it makes sense or not.

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  10. Does anyone think that this would pose a good opportunity for thinking ahead re a potential subway running along the rail corridor? Hypothetically one could exist there, and it would be a good placement that could be an extension of the proposed DRL.

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  11. I have mixed feelings about adding a GO station at Bloor Street for the Milton Line. One more stop delays everyone. Why get off there onto a crowded subway train when you could easily get a seat at the start of the line at Kipling Station? Would the walk at Dundas West be that much faster than at Kipling? Would the speed of GO train between those points be sufficiently faster to make up for standing? As for the Crossways, the only tourist going through there will be a lost tourist!

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  12. Karl wrote: “As for Queen, GO and the City had jointly been pursuing a station at King a decade ago, a station which has since become physically impossible with the Strachan grade separation, and Queen is the next closest feasible alternative.”

    Metrolinx recently released a report which nixed the idea of a station at King or Queen. The big problem is that the right-of-way is not wide enough for the number of tracks they plan on it, plus a platform for a station. A shame, in my opinion.

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  13. For Ben Smith, when I rode the Georgetown line, Bloor was a destination for people from the exurbs, not a source for travellers to downtown. The only time it had heavy use was when GO announced that there was a major problem getting to Union Station.

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  14. Am I the only one that is saying that the ARL would become useless if all these extra stations are added?
    People can always take the 58 Malton that passes by Weston GO.

    They can also take a taxi to Malton GO, if you take the train eastbound then you can go to Etobicoke North, Weston and Bloor.

    Wasn’t the whole idea of ARL that it would be an express route downtown?

    P.S. In about just over 5 years of being involved in transit advocacy, last night (it is 02:17am right now) this was the first transit related meeting/open house/event that I did not see you there.

    Steve: I am not everywhere, and there are other things in life than transit.

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  15. “If anyone here uses the Georgetown line, or even better the Bloor GO station their views on these questions would be much appreciated.”

    I can’t comment on current usage, but these types of stations are vital as and when GO moves to all day service. Personally I do use Bloor occasionally, as a much more convenient route to Brampton than fighting your way down to Union, with the problem that mostly the line doesn’t have all day services and buses don’t stop in the city (which, frankly, has a lot to do with how little I bother to go to Brampton – and for the record, on a trip from Toronto Zum just doesn’t cut it).

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  16. The retail in The Crossways are not that busy because there is no connection with the Dundas West subway station. There would be more traffic near the front entrance, but the further one gets, the less the walking traffic. Even getting into the little mall is not the best. Unless one jaywalks,one needs to walk down to Bloor Street, wait for the lights, and then walk back up.

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  17. Ben,

    To answer your question…

    The West Toronto Railpath provides excellent bicycle access to the station. The City provided a nice parking area with a veritable forest of post-and-ring parking stands. No roof, however, as is the case with parking at many GO stations, so bikes are left out in the weather. 😦

    However, in a wonderful demonstration of the usual City/Province co-operation, it is necessary to walk across a chunk of grass to get to the GO station. Getting mud on their shoes is just what business commuters want, right? Avoiding the mud requires a fairly large and annoying detour.

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  18. We need a similar connection at Main Street as well. That way we can start up a “downtown relief line on the cheap” using the rail corridor sort of like how many other cities use commuter rail as an integral backbone of their networks. (I know that Union Station capacity is limited but I think that 4tph Lakeshore and 4tph Georgetown is easily manageable with EMUs.) 2000 passengers a day is ridiculous, I would expect tens of thousands if this is done right. Also I think that Milton trains should stop at Dundas West, this line is the main link to the rapidly growing Mississauga Centre area and this would speed up trips to the Yonge/Bloor area.

    Steve: I know this will sound a tad snotty, but people need to disentangle their desire for electrification from service capacity issues at the low end of the scale. GO already operates more than 4 trains per hour on some routes, and they don’t need EMUs to achieve this. For better service and running times, yes, you need to electrify.

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  19. Adding a station on the Barrie line at St. Clair does seem rather odd… Eglinton or Bloor seems more sensible. (Though I think the latter would be closer to Lansdowne than Dundas West subway station).

    Steve: An important note about Lansdowne Station and the Newmarket Subdivision: the subway station lies mainly east of Lansdowne, and it is not possible to easily drop down from a new GO station west of, say, Wade Avenue because there is no station mezzanine below there. A fairly long tunnel would be needed to connect into the subway mezzanine which ends on the east side of Lansdowne at the foot of the exit to that side of the street. The west exit has a tunnel under Lansdowne, and that would be the connection point for a link to GO roughly 200m to the west.

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  20. @Ray Kennedy – if you’re heading for a station east of St George, the crush between Dundas West and there might be okay given the time saved between Kipling and Bloor GOs?

    As for stations on the Newmarket – are there sufficiently flat parts of the line at the cross streets under discussion to accommodate an L10 platform (or an L12, despite GO’s planning documents mostly avoiding the notion, such as those on electrification). I haven’t travelled the Barrie line but presumably there is some grade involved, and having to flatten parts of it for stations will marginally increase the grades in between.

    Once all of the planned upgrades to GO Barrie are in place including the downtown station it would be nice to see the other provincial agency on that corridor interlining with GO service between Barrie and Toronto, assuming the reformed timetables on both sides could work and the current yawning gap between the fare structures could be bridged.

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  21. Steve wrote, “I have to scratch my head about a St. Clair station on the Newmarket sub…”

    Unofficially, the old station that was there was used until the early 90’s for a stop to drop off people who accidentally boarded the (then) Bradford train, despite all the announcements before its departure from Union. Back then, I had a colleague who commuted from Newmarket who told me that this stop would occur about once each month or two.

    Steve: I have actually used St. Clair Station when it still operated, many, many years ago.

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  22. I *think* I would use this GO station when taking the ARL, instead of Kipling / 192 Rocket, but it would depend on how convenient the transfer is. If it takes 5 minutes and there’s only a net 5 minute time saving for me, then the price of the ARL would scarcely be worth it (I live near Christie Station).

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  23. James Bow said: Metrolinx recently released a report which nixed the idea of a station at King or Queen. The big problem is that the right-of-way is not wide enough for the number of tracks they plan on it, plus a platform for a station. A shame, in my opinion.

    I’m not familiar with the recent report you’re referring to, but I imagine that it is generally the same in content as that during the EA. While it can’t be done with all tracks at the same level, there’s been a frequent and persistent problem with designers/engineers not thinking in three dimensions. Sure, this kind of approach is expensive, without question, but to try and present the station as outright unfeasible is categorically false. If you raise the central tracks enough for people to stand under them (allowing that space to serve as platform area), problem solved; a station fits within the right of way. The grades that would be involved for such are feasible.

    The same problem exists with Milton trains stopping at Bloor GO, and the approach above would solve that problem there, too. Building a good system costs money; everybody needs to accept that. Look on the bright side; these kinds of investments are still far below anything a subway line would cost.

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  24. The Crossways (“Crotchways ” because it looks like a giant pair of brown slacks) was a loophole in planning and it shows. It’s relationship to the street and lack of daylight has killed off most customers and good retail tenants such as the LCBO. With the proposed development of the Woolco site south of Bloor it is only going to get worse. The most efficient path to the GO would pretty much avoid the interior mall (and its inefficient walking layout) and form a a straight line.

    Steve: Again I remind readers that the proposed second exit from Dundas West Station is at the east end of the Crossways, through the parking garage. To orient yourself, remember that the elevators from the west end of the platform reach street level in the east end of the station building, and much of the station lies between Dundas and the rail corridor.

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  25. Even with 100% fare integration, I don’t see GO trains serving as a downtown relief line. Consider that the trip from Dundas West to the GO platform is probably going to be close to five minutes, especially if you expect ‘tens of thousands’ to make use of this every day (Dundas West is a very deep station….try going up the stairs from platform to street level). Main Street to Danforth GO is probably even worse, because it’s quite a distance and I’m not sure what all buried infrastructure and subbasements might be in the way of an underground path.

    So….you get off a crowded subway train, take five minutes to get to the GO platform, and then wait for the GO train. Rush hour GO trains are crowded to begin with, so now go from a crowded subway train to a crowded GO train. Quick trip to Union, sure, but then what? The get-off-the-train-and-down-the-stairs shuffle, followed by another walk to your destination?

    The GO lines will serve as a DRL for a fairly narrow niche, consisting of:
    1. People who can be intercepted before they get on the subway, for example pedestrians or people arriving at Dundas West or Main by surface routes
    2. People who work very, very close to Union Station, for example those who work in the office buildings to the south of the tracks

    And to Steve’s point, when Long Branch gets six trains stopping between 7:36 and 8:19 AM. Whether this schedule works out in practice, and whether the trains are empty or packed to the gills, I have not had the chance to find experience.

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  26. Somebody responding to the Star’s article said this, which sounds sensible:

    The TTC should investigate taking over some/all of these lines within the city and, with the addition of a few stations, use them to create the long overdue Downtown Relief Line as surface rail into Union where passengers could easily transfer to the Subway. It seems silly to sit around trying to find money to build infrastructure that’s already there and simply needs to be re-purposed.

    Sound like a good plan, or not, Steve?

    Steve: Not quite as easy as it sounds. The volume needed on a DRL to offload the Yonge line is substantially more than we want to add at Union. A DRL crossing through downtown on its own alignment under, say, Wellington or Adelaide, while more expensive, spreads out the load better. The last thing we need is to “relieve” the Yonge line at the expense of Union Station.

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  27. But the rebuilding of the streetcar tracks in Dundas West Station was only done a few years ago (different tracks for the 504 King and 505 Dundas cars). Are they going to rip all that up again? Last time it took over 2 years to finish the project how on earth will this be done by 2015??? They might get the EA done by 2014 and then what?

    Steve: Yes, that new loop seems like a make work project more than something we really need. In particular, it does nothing to address problems with the new, longer cars and if anything provides less space for streetcars at this busy junction than we have today. I don’t want to think what sort of crappy throughput the traffic signals will give at Edna and Dundas.

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  28. It would be interesting to hear something from the Crossways management. Were they at the meeting?

    The previous comment about retail originally being an add-on to get construction approval (the first I’ve heard this) may indicate their subsequent lack of interest in steering thousands of pedestrians their way.

    Over decades, I have got the impression owners of this complex have gone out of their way to avoid connecting with the surrounding transit infrastructure. There are savvy (re)developers around the world who would work aggressively to take advantage of potential foot traffic near train stations. Perhaps Crossways has done a careful cost-benefit analysis and decided not to bother, but I kinda doubt it.

    -ed

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  29. From the presentation it looks like the streetcar loop changes at Dundas West station are part of a future phase, not part of what they will deliver by 2015. Presumably based on redevelopment of the station itself. A bit of a red herring at this stage. Could be years away …

    Steve: I think Metrolinx is getting a bit carried away with its “Mobility Hub” scheme and forgets that, at the end of the day, this is a rather ordinary street corner.

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  30. If I were dictator, I would add another set of tracks for a possible streetcar replacement for the 40 Junction bus. Not going to happen unfortunately, especially with a mayor who has a surface-rail phobia.

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  31. I’ve always thought a great model for connecting urban and regional transit was Berlin – the U-bahn and S-bahn systems are connected seamlessly throughout the city. It has always seemed odd to me that the GO system appears to have been created without any consideration of how it connected to the subway – I guess because they were run by two different levels of government. GO has enormous potential to increase ridership within Toronto if it stopped seeing itself as mainly serving 905 bedroom communities – of course we would also need regular all day service, which may be a pipe dream. With all this talk of subways vs light rail we forget that the rail corridors that already exist are an enormous potential way to move hundreds of thousands of transit users in Toronto with minimal investments in capital.

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  32. I wonder if they are going to do something with the railway bridge over Bloor street. Now it looks scary and, in my opinion, affects badly the entire look of this neighborhood.

    Steve: From the description of changes to the GO station entrance, they certainly plan to spiff things up under the bridge, in part by opening up the space a bit to the north.

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  33. Steve: Yes, that new loop seems like a make work project more than something we really need. In particular, it does nothing to address problems with the new, longer cars and if anything provides less space for streetcars at this busy junction than we have today. I don’t want to think what sort of crappy throughput the traffic signals will give at Edna and Dundas.

    This not a TTC-started item; rather it is proposed by the Metrolinx consultants as part of ‘Avenues’ proposals. It is only a proposal at this stage and not accepted/approved by the TTC.

    The first reason given was to make the connection between the station and Bloor more attractive. Having the tracks cross the sidewalks is seen as ‘unfriendly’, so the consultants recommend moving the tracks so that the tracks do not cross pedestrians’ route between the station and Bloor. The tracks follow the roadways, rather than crossing the sidewalk between streets.

    The second reason mentioned was to make it easier for the TTC to make the movements into and out of the station. They feel it would be easier at a signalized intersection, and would therefore install transit-priority signal lights at the Edna – Dundas intersection. All surface transit, both bus and streetcar, would enter and exit through this intersection.

    One of the staff there had a copy of the proposed layout which I managed to take a quick shot of. It is not a particularly good shot, but it does show much more detail than the small diagram on the comment sheet.
    The consultants said they did use TTC’s standards for track layout and that the platforms were long enough for one new streetcar each. However, there seems to be no provision for separate unloading/loading zones.

    I recommended that they modify the layout of the loops to allow room for a third platform so a new service (aka 507) could be added without having to redesign and rebuild the entire track layout, and this was noted.

    Steve: The “transit priority” signals will be something of a joke if they use the typical implementation we see in Toronto. There is a very short distance between the exit from the streetcar platforms and the intersection, only enough for one of the new streetcars. In all likelihood, the detector requesting an eastbound green will be at the exit to the station, and every outbound streetcar will be held waiting for a green signal. It will be important that the transit phase be long enough to handle multiple vehicle movements in either direction, and that the “priority” logic not treat transit vehicles as something to be fitted in when there is time. A big advantage of the current arrangement is that streetcars (and buses) can take advantage of whatever gaps appear in the traffic, or just push their way through. With a traffic signal, the real priority goes back to motorists.

    Thanks for the photo of the detailed plan.

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  34. @W. K. Lis: Unless some sort of Old Weston Road bridge link is restored to remove the horrific crush of rush hour traffic through the Junction on Dundas and Keele, a Junction streetcar would be a disaster. I’d love to see both but they’re not gonna happen.

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  35. Kristian: How can there be a “horrific crush of rush hour traffic” through the Junction, when there are no streetcars currently on Dundas and Keele? Didn’t you hear the gospel according to Rob that streetcars cause traffic jams?

    Seriously though, I was thinking about a better connection between the Roncesvalles carbarns and the 512 St. Clair streetcar, if they ever bypass the Ford brothers and extend the 512 to Jane Street or Scarlett Road. It would take just as long to for streetcars to get through the Junction as the current buses. Allowing for additional streetcar platforms would provide the ability to add the Junction and/or Dundas Exhibition streetcars, should they ever do so.

    Steve: The question, however, is whether the capital expense of linking from Bloor to St. Clair would be recovered from the reduction in dead mileage.

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  36. The proposed layout of Dundas West station is a poor arrangement. There are only two loading spots for one car each (King car and Dundas car). When a second car arrives you will not be able to unload. It is common to see 2 or 3 cars at the station now. There should be room for at least two of the new longer cars on each track. There should be at least a third track for Carlton car which is an orphan at its west end. Dundas and King connect to the subway at both ends. A stated purpose of TTC routes is for as many as possible to connect directly to the subway. Traffic along Howard Park into High Park Loop is low and the Carlton car should be rerouted into Dundas West Station as well. Possibly every other car (or, every third car?) could go to High Park. Lake Shore car should be routed along Roncesvalles to Dundas West Station as well. Some King cars could short turn at Sunnyside with Long Branch car mixing in to the flow to provide a good level of service.

    Also, the 2 bus bays are a block away from the station entrance. Poor layout.

    Possible solution: Incorporate the south side of Edna inside TTC property paid zone and allow cars to stop on former street closer to Dundas proper.

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  37. In the diagrams, there doesn’t seem to be any fare control between the subway and GO or the subway and the streetcars. Does this mean that they will let people walk in for free or do they plan to use POP on the subways too? I’ve yet to see any preparation in fare control for when the streetcars start using POP.

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  38. The only good outcome from the track reconfiguration is that the streetcars will now be able to wait on quieter Edna Avenue and/or Dorval Road instead of on the limited space on busier Dundas Street West to enter the station property, as is currently.

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  39. One thing to consider regarding the new streetcar platform arrangement… wouldn’t the eventual DRL down Roncesvalles to Queen mean that there will no longer be any need for the 504 to go up to Bloor St? Thus by the time they actually get around to reconfiguring Dundas West Stn, streetcar traffic in and out of the station will be reduced?

    Steve: There is never going to be a DRL on Roncesvalles. If there is a “DRL West”, it will follow the rail corridor, and won’t stop at almost every lamppost the way the 504 did before the street redesign.

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  40. Looking further at the proposed TTC Dundas Street West terminal it seems to have been designed by someone who does not use transit. Did that person(s) even go to Dundas West station? Is it possible the service will be degraded to the point the headway will be so far apart there will not be a need for more than one spot? Sure hope not.

    I cannot see a route for the buses to depart the terminal. I assume Junction bus will turn right (west) on Edna and then left on Dorval and left again into the terminal. Symington bus will continue west past Dundas to Dorval and turn north (right) and right again into the terminal. How do they get out? No roadway visible.

    If this is to be a big time “Mobility Hub” then it needs to be done right.

    It would seem the best solution would be an entirely new terminal located on the east side of Dundas near where it used to be (Vincent Street loop). Not sure how practical it would be to get access/egress past or beneath Crossways into the subway. This would allow for more tracks and loading spots for streetcars and buses. It would also move entrance/exit to platform from the present extreme west end more to the middle which will improve platform loading. Walking distances between vehicles and subway and railway trains should be kept to a minimum.

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