In the Financial Post, Peter Kuitenbrouwer reports on problems at Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant.
It’s a sad tale of cock-ups with parts that don’t fit and claims that designing for Toronto’s streetcar environment is too challenging. Fortunately for Bombardier, they have not yet had to start producing the Metrolinx cars that should be an off-the-shelf design as a point of comparison.
Sorry, Bombardier, you bid on this contract, and you pass yourselves off as a world-class supplier. Stop complaining and start delivering.
Steve Munro 
Sounds like a classic start-up problem with a new process. It is unfortunate that the TTC cars are tied up with it. I would hope that this would be resolved relatively quickly, and would then permit a steady flow, hopefully above the initial projection. There should still be the possibility that they can make up the lost time. Hopefully we will see a delivery rate climb quickly to one a week once they have figure this all out. In my own business it is normal for the first one to take twice as long as the next two, and production will continue to speed up after that. If this follows the same ramp as in my own business I would not be surprised to see 2 or so in February and 4 in march and 5 in April, and 5 there after. However, first of course they need to get the parts issue nailed down. If the Metrolinx order kicks in they might even see 6/month.
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Should be remembered that many of those same suppliers for Bombardier are also the same suppliers for Siemens and others. It’s the finding different suppliers for the same part that is hard to do.
Steve: Yes, but when one Bombardier factory cannot make parts properly for another Bombardier factory, something is badly screwed up.
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WE WANT OUR MONEY BACK. WE WANT FULL REFUND NOW. LET THE COMPANY GO BANKRUPT FOR ALL THE TAXPAYERS CARE. This might be a good time to reflect on whether we really need to keep the antiquated streetcar system designing modern streetcars for which (to quote Steve) “is too challenging”. These new streetcars have costed one and half billion dollars, are many many years late, and even within a few hours of entering service, they had screws and other parts falling (Steve talked about this in his replies to several people in an earlier thread) and yet the TTC wants to spend half a billion MORE of OUR dollars to order 60 more of these new streetcars that don’t even work properly and even before any new streetcars of the old order had been delivered and the same already many years late. Streetcars in Toronto should only be running on new lines for which designing streetcars is NOT “too challenging” and I say that discard the old lines and replace them with articulated buses (or at least rebuild all streetcar infrastructure and do away ancient infrastructure such as loops and power poles and use bi-directional ones with pantographs ONLY but I say articulated buses would be much cheaper and reliable).
Steve: My remark about “too challenging” was not an agreement with Bombardier’s position, but rather echoing their claim.
Articulated buses were only recently ordered and were delivered very fast at a very low price and have been working fantastically. To those who say streetcars are better than buses because they provide higher capacity, the claim about higher capacity is simply NOT true. TTC’s articulated buses provide a much higher capacity than CLRV streetcars which comprise most of Toronto’s fleet. I am not anti-streetcar, I just want fast affordable delivery of RELIABLE vehicles and the new streetcars fail on ALL of those points (many years late delivery, very expensive, and screws and what not falling down even within hours of new streetcars entering service).
Steve: In fact, the service design capacity of the artic buses and the CLRVs is roughly equal. Something that the TTC has found is that the artics cannot make the originally scheduled running times, although this is partly a question of fare collection and loading procedures.
And why the TTC ordered a gazillion vehicles before even seeing if Bombardier could build one that actually works properly? Say you find good looking shoes for unbelievable sale (99% off) and you want to buy for the rest of your life (say you are a young adult), do you buy a gazillion pairs without ever even using one pair? This is foolish. Look, if we want to keep the streetcars then that’s fine but then dump the Bombardier contract, get all of our money back, and then order from another company like Germany’s Siemens or whatever.
Steve: Bombardier has been building vehicles for Toronto for decades, and the base Flexity design was already in widespread use.
This might also be a good idea to think whether or not it might be a good idea to convert the Eglinton streetcar line to subway (if there is not enough money to build an underground line all the way to Kennedy, then build only until Victoria Park or Don Mills and so what I am saying is that it’s better to build little of good quality transit than a lot of bad quality transit).
Steve: That really is a ridiculous idea because it would foreclose the possibility of further surface extensions, notably to the airport once John Tory is convinced that his SmartTrack scheme isn’t workable. You are basing a planning decision on a deep dislike for a specific vehicle and, despite your comments, suggests that you really would prefer anything but streetcars.
[The following was merged in from a separate comment by the same author.]
Germany has a first class streetcar system. Let’s get our FULL REFUND from Bombardier and give it to Germany’s Siemens so that they can make high quality streetcars for us. This Great German company can help solve our transportation woes. I say let Siemens also build all of our future subway, LRT, etc vehicles. given that Siemens has an excellent track record all over the world and Siemens would have had the contract anyway if it wasn’t for David Miller’s unilaterally awarding the contract uncompetitively to Bombardier.
Full disclosure: My brother in law is an executive at Siemens but that has nothing to do with my recommendation.
Steve: Actually Bombardier is headquartered in Berlin, and the design they are building in Thunder Bay is adapted from a standard European design. How they can cock it up so badly is hard to say, but it says something about the Canadian side of the company, not to mention the inability to co-ordinate work with their other plants. Siemens bid on the Toronto contract at a level 50% higher than Bombardier. This is a matter of public record.
There have been problems with quality control on Toronto subway car orders, although not to the same degree, but Siemens itself has gone through teething problems with some of its products.
I think a major problem we have had is that as long as the Ford administration was in place, the TTC was keeping problems with the streetcar order quiet because that would just give the anti-streetcar folks another shot at derailing the order (one that Mayor Ford managed to delay himself for about a year when he took office). The TTC should have been much more vocal about problems much sooner.
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BREAKING NEWS: STREETCAR DELIVERY SCHEDULE CHANGED, BATHURST TO BE NEXT
The change is a very good decision. Bathurst route is indeed extremely crowded and I am fed up with it as are millions of other riders who take the Bathurst streetcar everyday.
Steve: Millions is bit of an exaggeration. In any event, the Bathurst car was to be third after Harbourfront, but I agree that it makes more sense to convert it first. The larger question is what to do with the King car. Even if Bombardier had stayed on its original delivery schedule, the TTC’s original fleet plan did little or nothing to improve capacity on King even as older vehicles were released from the Flexity rollout on other routes. I understand this is to change, but we have yet to see the details.
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I would remind all that due to the particular nature of the tight turns, and narrow streets, Toronto required some slightly different capabilities. However, I would also I would suggest that one of the reasons that Bombardiers bid was so much lower, was also the requirement for manufacturing location, which Bombardier already had covered.
However, before we get ahead of ourselves, let us give them some time to get underway. They may well be able to recover.
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In other words, an unelected Andy Byford intentionally misled the democratically elected CEO of the city a.k.a. Mayor Ford. I am sure that there are provisions in the criminal code against this sort of misleading misconduct of public officials and therefore, Mr Andy Byford should be indicted. Another problem that you fail to mention is that Mayor David Miller awarded streetcar as well as a host of other contracts to Bombardier uncompetitively and this kind of thing is considered major corruption in most democracies (giving government contracts uncompetitively to friends) for which Mr David Miller should be indicted.
Steve: There was a lot that the bureaucracy hid from Rob Ford over the years just to keep the city’s wheels turning. This is certainly not a criminal code matter.
As for Miller and Bombardier, there are two points. First, it is almost impossible to award a contract to any company other than Bombardier in Ontario because Queen’s Park wants to keep the plant in Thunder Bay open. It has nothing to do with David Miller. Second, the next lowest bid above Bombardier’s was 50% higher, and it is hardly uncompetitive to award to the lowest bidder especially at such a margin.
You are in danger of being banned on this site for crap such as this, but I am letting this one through if only to refute it.
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I suppose it would not be reasonable to infer, that Mr Byford, actually duly informed Mayor Ford, but did not choose to make a major public stink (ie call a news conference). I would put to you that there was no reason that Mr. Byford would feel obligated to raise the issue to the level of public anguish, during the election period, as this would be inappropriate, and would make it a political football. This could actually place him in a spot where he would be seen as taking sides, which would be unacceptable for someone in the civil service. I would expect that the TTC had made the contract clear to the city (matter of public record) and was likely informing the city of each delivery, hence the city itself, and the Mayor’s office, likely chose to ignore this (or at least not make it a major political football), as it would be a point where scoring electoral points would be difficult, as it might appear as a management issue, and not a positive to the Ford regime.
I would be most interested in exactly what crime you could reasonably infer, or do you suggest that the public and the media should both be aware and report every memo that makes it way from a TTC desk to the City. Bombardier was not actually late until it started missing deliveries, we should have been receiving what 3-4 a month for the last year or so. I seem to recall this being an issue in the media many months ago, it would not get there until well after it was elevated, so I suspect it was noted to the mayor right on time.
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Remind us all please why we bought into this?
We should have 43 cars – we have 3 – and right now, Bombadier is laying off another 49 workers because there is nothing for them to build
Here is an interesting article from the Financial Post.
Steve: Bombardier has been building cars for Toronto (TTC and GO) for decades, and the new streetcars are an adapted form of a standard European Bombardier product. That’s why we bought into this.
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I googled Bombardier after your comment but all seems to suggest that Bombardier is headquarted in Quebec. Was your comment a mistake or an attempt at deception? Please clarify.
Steve: Bombardier Transportation’s global headquarters is in Berlin as per their own company document. The parent company may remain nominally Canadian, but the transportation sector has been run out of Germany for years. It is the lion’s share of the company.
Citynews: The TTC said 25 of its streetcars aren’t working due to the cold and it’s bringing in buses to supplement service.
And this is what they want to build in Scarborough? And why does service in Scarborough have to suffer just because Downtown chose to keep their extremely expensive streetcars? I waited an hour for a bus that I was supposed to wait 5 minutes for because guess where my bus was? It was sent Downtown to replace streetcars. My point is this: if Downtown wants to keep it’s streetcars, then that’s fine but when they fail, don’t steal buses from Scarborough to replace the streetcars. If you want us to pay for buses to replace poor frozen streetcars, then that’s fine but then replace them permanently.
Steve: And how often do downtown bus routes lose their service because your precious Scarborough RT breaks down, or because the subway stops somewhere? The streetcars are over 30 years old, and if you were trying to run a rapid transit line with equipment in that condition, it would fail too. That’s not what is planned for new LRT lines. The TTC has made a point of noting that the new streetcars remain in operation without problems.
If you want to distort things, to deceive yourself about comparisons between parts of the network, that’s your privilege, but don’t expect me to agree with you.
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Bombardier should take a lesson from the common sense, no nonsense private sector…. wait?!… what?
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John, if a good LRT network is built not only would those routes in Scarborough be improved with new equipment. I do not know how the TTC plans for these types of issues, but please don’t blame streetcars. Blame city hall for not giving the TTC the means to do a better job.
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And that is precisely why we need the subway built in Scarborough. Also Downtown doesn’t really have many buses to lend to anyone in the first place and most of the ones in Downtown are there (taken from the suburbs) substituting for an unreliable streetcar service.
Steve: Actually it is far more common for buses everywhere to be grabbed to fill in for subway problems, not the streetcar system.
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Bombardier’s Transportation Division is really the remnants of ADTranz, (a German-headquarted railway conglomerate, which was taken over by Bombardier), combined with smaller companies including the remnants of the Urban Transport Development Corporation, which builds Toronto’s streetcars, subway trains and GO Train cars.
Bombardier Aerospace was built from the takeover of other aviation companies including De Haviland and Canadair.
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[@Steve: Apologies for the rant below]
@Mike: Does Scarborough deserve great transit, or does it deserve a subway? Is it really worth 30 years of higher taxes for only three stops for low density and (like all of us living North of St. Clair W or Eglinton know only too well) the joys of short-turned subways?
If Scarborough were going to get *excellent* transit throughout, ie. _multiple_ LRT lines that would come into cost-recovering revenue service sooner, have more stops, improve transit *within* Scarborough and not just to the downtown core, I would be all over that. But this is not what we’re talking about.
Is 30 years of higher taxes for *everyone* in Toronto worth it for a limited benefit when there are cheaper, better (more stops), and “sooner” options that are already fully funded?
My heart wants to be able to say yes. My head can only say no.
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I am sure that the anti-streetcar folks would use the technical problems and the very high costs and delays with the new streetcars to fight against ordering 60 additional streetcars which would likely kill one or two of the lowest ridership streetcar routes. Assuming that the city decides against ordering 60 additional streetcars, which streetcar routes are likely to be scrapped and by when? I know that St Clair streetcar right of way is still bitterly hated by business owners, their driving customers, as well as drivers in general and so that streetcar route might disappear as the older streetcars are taken out of service in a few years.
Steve: I wouldn’t count on it. The cost to put the street back to “normal” would be substantial and the operating cost of the route would go up quite a bit. The challenge the TTC faces is that it has not improved streetcar service since the late 1990s, but development along these routes is now accelerating. Then there is the small matter of the eastern waterfront which will have a population roughly three times that of Liberty Village. A single SmartTrack station almost at Queen Street will not serve this huge population.
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The Streetcar problem is being caused by ice forming in the air system. When air is compressed water vapour condenses and can freeze in exposed pipes and valves. There is supposed to be a system to remove the water but it is not 100% effective. The new cars do not have air brakes and doors but use hydraulic systems which will not freeze.
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Don’t forget Short or Shorts of Ireland and Lear in the US. Bombardier is the number 3 manufacturer of commercial airplanes.
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Amen to that. Bottom line, while there are issues with the streetcars, they have been around already for a couple of lifetimes as far as buses would be concerned. If we are to keep using the ones we already have, many require a rather complete rebuild.
It is also a fairly obvious thing that there will be events within the system that will cause disruptions to some notable degree periodically. Therefore there should be more slack in the system to allow for this. To start with the if the loading standard was lower, and there were standby buses for super peak loads etc, in a pinch some buses could be taken. The TTC needs at least 200 additional buses right now and an extra 50-100 next year, and I would make the argument, that in a few years, if the routes (East Bayfront, a Liberty Village to Union Car etc…) that should be added to the streetcar network are, and the service on Queen is improved as it will need to (look like King) to support the spread north, we will be talking about the fact that the current streetcar order was too small. A proper Ridership Growth Strategy with support from additional Yonge capacity in 2019 and we will likely need for many more buses beyond that.
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Steve: Will We Ever See Our New Streetcars?
The new streetcars are severely late with technical problems due to past labour disputes and ongoing tensions between employees and management. Steve, why do we have such a double standard between the public and the private sector? My brother-in-law’s cousin is a mechanical engineer who has worked on the new streetcars and his pay is about $70,000 + with very little benefits and a joke of a pension whereas a TTC driver who drives these streetcars could be making upwards of $100,000 + a lot of very good benefits and perks and an awesome pension. I am NOT saying that the public sector drivers need to be paid less nor am I saying that the private sector engineers should be paid more but all I am saying is that public sector or private sector, engineers should be paid at least a little bit more than drivers. Without these engineers, there would be no vehicles for these drivers to drive in the first place.
And so I am sympathetic to the employees in the labour disputes plaguing Bombardier’s plants. And can you imagine if the pay, benefits, and pension structure for Bombardier engineers was based on the public sector pay, benefits, and pension structure; how much our new trains and new streetcars would cost? Let’s just say that we would have half as many streetcars and trains to work with making crowding twice as worse. I am with the employees in the labour disputes plaguing Bombardier (I understand that the strike in question has since long ended) and I think that the private sectors need strong unions just like the public sector unions. A conservative of course would say let us get rid of all unions period but that would only widen the already huge gap between the rich and the poor and lead to rampant crime and so, I don’t think that banning unions would do any good.
Steve: I am really not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand. Your claim about an operator’s wages ignores the fact that to make over $100k, an operator must work a lot of overtime. If you are going to compare wages, at least do an apples-to-apples example rather than cherry picking the highest items from the “sunshine list”. The TTC starts on page 325 of the linked file, and you will find many pages of staff there, but not many operators considering that there are around 5,000 of them in total for the organization.
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With all due respect, but then who on Earth would accept streetcars with a system that will not work in the winter? The last time I checked, Toronto could be cold 30+ years ago when the CLRV and ALRV were designed. Or is this due simply because of a lack of maintenance on the part of the TTC (like all the rust appearing on the vehicles)?
Steve: Part of this is design, part maintenance/age. The cars had air-based systems as designed, and they also had air drying units to keep moisture from being a problem. Similar systems exist on subway cars, and air-actuated systems on rail vehicles have been around for at least a century. The fact that a small portion of the fleet (under 10%) is affected by this problem suggests that it is an issue with specific vehicles.
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Steve, thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, when the issue occurs during the rush hour, especially when the TTC has already announced that it does not have enough streetcars to operate the 508 Lakeshore route during the evening rush hour, that ‘small portion of the fleet’ becomes a big deal for passengers.
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@Rob: this seems like a really strange comment.
Regardless of what you think about double standards between public sector and private sector unions, the fact that the TTC is behind in receipt of its new vehicles lies squarely on the shoulders of the private sector supplier. It’s easy to grumble about the supposed incompetence of public sector agencies, but more often than not it is the actions of private sector contractors that lead to cost overruns and delays in delivery. The implication, of course, is that the private sector is either just as incompetent as the public sector, or the private sector has some sense that public contracts are opportunities to milk the public purse for all it’s worth. Neither of those possibilities speaks very highly of the competence or ethics of the private sector.
Hopefully what we are seeing here is a case of difficult specifications slowing down product roll-out. If that is the Flexity Freedom vehicles ordered by Metrolinx should arrive at a faster pace.
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@Steve, regarding comparing wages. The location of work also needs to be factored in. Toronto is a more expensive place to live and the local wage structure generally higher.
Steve: I didn’t want to get into that aspect of the comparison, mainly wanted to debunk — again — the “operators make over $100k” as a generic statement when it is demonstrably not true.
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Getting back to this post’s “Headline” (“Will we ever see our new streetcars”) I am starting to think “NO”.
The Bombardier strike has been over since mid-September and we still only have three in service (4400, 4403 and 4404) with 4401 and 4402 in Toronto but being used for training as they still need to be returned to Bombardier for modifications. The CEO Report to the December Board meeting said:
Any news of what the hell is happening?
Steve: No. I have asked repeatedly, and get the same answer every time. The next critical point for something to be reported will be the Board meeting on January 21. At that point we should have the capital budget which will include an updated fleet plan.
On another note, any discussion of possible legal/contract penalties against Bombardier would necessarily occur in close session, not as part of a public debate or report.
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It’s worse when you consider the details. 4403 was delivered at the end of May. 4400 was sent back at the end of June. 4404 was delivered in the second week of November but I understand it was substantially complete before the strike. It looks very much like they’ve done nothing since the strike has ended. Not that they were doing anything quickly in the first place mind you. To say Bombardier is having major issues may be an understatement.
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Supposing that the new streetcars turn out to be a big failure with massive breakdowns once the streetcars are a few years old, what are the chances that Toronto streetcars will be permanently replaced by buses?
Steve: I don’t think they will turn out to be failures. The cars that are operating are quite reliable so far, and if memory serves, they are doing better than the CLRV fleet did in its early years thanks to sundry design flaws that made them unsuitable for winter operation.
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Also, as the Flexity Outlook design is not a custom built order like the CLRV and ALRV, the design has been ‘run in’ so to speak. This means that the problems with cold weather on the current fleet should not be a factor with the new streetcars.
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It may not be a “custom built order” but it is s highly customized standard car that has been adapted from 25 m minimum curves and double blade switches to 11 m minimum radius with single blade switches. These have caused problems along with the two stage handicap ramp. That being said Bombardier needs to get its act and that of its suppliers in order and start offering complete LFLRVs rather than more excuses. They should be able to get the order completed on time but the TTC may need to keep some of the old crap running longer than planned.
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Streetcars frozen again. Buses being brought in from Scarborough leaving Scarborough commuters out in the extreme cold. This is why Scarborough should have it’s own transit agency with buses painted very differently than Toronto’s so that Scarborough’s service does not suffer due to Downtown’s very expensive love affair with streetcars and as things stand TTC quietly shifts buses from Scarborough. The waiting time for buses in Scarborough in the extreme cold is often higher than in snowstorms and if you wonder why, then wonder no more as I just spilled the beans on TTC’s dirty secret.
Steve: And how do you know the buses came from Scarborough routes? The next time the RT breaks down, or the subway fails anywhere east of Victoria Park, I hope that “your” bus fleet will be ready to take over.
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The Star had an article this week on the progress of Leslie Barns and how that is running behind schedule as well. It made me think that Bombardier’s delays may be a mixed blessing for the TTC. If the streetcars had been delivered from Bombardier according to the original schedule, would the TTC be in the awkward situation of not having room to store them?
Steve: There were plans for temporary storage of older cars at the CNE, something the TTC did anyhow to make room for construction at Roncesvalles Carhouse.
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So what happens when the large number of streetcars that has to be shutdown due to the cold weather conditions and the scheduled operators can’t use them? They reduce their hours among all drivers? Or sit at the carhouse waiting and killing time?
I know they pull buses from main routes to meet the streetcar gap, but I feel they need to tell TTC riders which bus routes will see a slight reduction in bus vehicles so people can plan accordingly if there is a slight increase of overcrowding on those routes.
Also, this delay in the new streetcars shows an example of how stupid govt is with their procurements and bidding processes. I know Bombardier did prior TTC projects, but we need to get best possible deal at best price. Clearly wrong vendor was successful. Lessons must be learned for future projects.
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[@Steve: Again, apologies for the rant]
@Samuel:
Exactly how is it that a company — one that, as you say, “did prior TTC project” successfully — contracted with in good faith by the TTC that runs into trouble on it’s own accord (nothing the TTC did, nor was foreseeable to the TTC given the company’s history) reflects in any way on the TTC?
Is this not what the public tendering process does? Have you ever run an RFP or an RFQ exercise? Do you really know how these things work? Or, put differently, what do you know that everyone else does not? Yes, please be explicit. Inquiring minds want to know …
The reflexive assailing of the “gub’mint” at any level every time a project doesn’t go exactly to expectations, often times due to circumstances that have all of ZERO to do with “gub’mint” is really tiresome.
Steve: For the record, the only other bid for the new cars, from Siemens, was 50% higher than Bombardier’s. There was no reason to expect Bombardier could not deliver their cars as they were based on an existing design, and the company has a long history of supplying vehicles to Toronto and other cities.
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What about the two new streetcars (4401 and 4402 if I recall correctly) that are supposed to belong to Bombardier but are on the TTC’s property. Can’t the TTC do what ever work is required to get them finished and entered into service? If they are good enough for training purposes, then they must be close to being ready for operation.
Steve: They have to go back to Thunder Bay for modifications. Right now they are being used as training cars so that the other three remain in service.
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Well, if the customization is so ‘hard’ then Bombardier should not have put in a bid! My point is that as the order is based on an existing design, that many of the problems with how it operates under extreme conditions (like a Canadian winter) should have been dealt with unlike a design that was 100% new (i.e. the CLRV.)
Also, I don’t think the current fleet is crap – I still contend that part of the issue is that the TTC stopped proper maintenance of the current fleet in anticipation of the new cars. And I base this on all the rust that is showing up on the current fleet that never existed before as it would have been repaired immediately.
Steve: I think that Bombardier is overplaying the “we had to modify the car” argument as a fig leaf covering their exposed butt on this problem. They had no such concerns when bidding.
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Isn’t Bombardier going to replace an entire module on each streetcar? It’s not just some paint …
Steve: Waiting to hear the gory details.
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Steve, why do you consider yourself a Downtowner? You don’t live here, you don’t work here, who gives you the right to tell us what transit we do or don’t need in Downtown? Who gives you the right to demand the eastern portion of the DRL when the density in the western part is many times higher?
Steve: Listen, you uninformed windbag, I live at Broadview and Danforth. For much of my working life, my jobs were in the University Avenue corridor or at King and Yonge. I spent the last period before retirement at Scarborough City Hall thanks to the reorganization and amalgamation of the TDSB.
As for density, the question is “where is the potential demand and how would it align with various proposed routes”. The DRL east (to Eglinton, not just to Danforth, and possibly beyond) would have a much higher effect on capacity relief on the Yonge subway than a line to the west.
All further comments from you will be deleted.
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I don’t know how you put up with all the crap that you do. Unless someone works for one of the companies involved and is worried about protecting their job I think that they should publish their full REAL name.
Steve: There are times that some of the trolls show signs of intelligence amid the dreck, and it may be worth posting their remarks if only to counter them. But when the insults get personal (not to mentioned hopelessly uninformed), then they can kiss my (downtown) ass.
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Steve, well those two cars look pretty complete to me. My point is why can’t the TTC do the remaining work? I happened to see one of the cars in the summer, and get a good look through the windows. They looked pretty complete to me.
Steve: The TTC is holding Bombardier to account on those cars, and does not want to create a situation where the TTC plays “Mister Fixit” for an entire fleet that arrives with defects. Moreover, the change needed for the “production” version of the accessibility ramp requires structural modifications to the prototype cars.
“Looks complete” isn’t enough of a measure as many auto buyers have learned.
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As much as I hate the trolls myself, sometimes I think that the trolls use a more civil language than Steve.
Steve: You don’t see the stuff I edit out or just completely delete.
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Sometimes I come to your website just to see you smack down the trolls. /popcorn
Steve: Will that be real butter on your popcorn?
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