Updated May 19:
The question of turnback points and storage tracks on the Sheppard East LRT has come up in the comment thread on this post, and I have now received some details from the TTC.
There will be a crossover at “regular intervals” along the line for turnbacks. As for storage tracks, there are two potential locations that were shown in the preliminary designs at public meetings. Neither of these is confirmed yet, and their inclusion will be subject to detailed design and costing.
- Don Mills Station (third track)
- Malvern Garage (spur)
No three-track section on Sheppard itself is planned.
Details of the Don Mills Station configuration will be included in a report on the TTC agenda for May 28.
Original post from May 15:
Today at a joint press conference at TTC Hillcrest Yards, Prime Minister Harper and Premier McGuinty announced funding for the Sheppard East line with construction to start in July (Harper) or in the fall (McGuinty).
Included in the announcement was a statement that the route would be served by Bombardier vehicles, and this more or less settles the question about any add-on contract to the “legacy” streetcar order.
A reporter from Radio Canada (the French network) asked about funding for the new streetcar fleet, and this question was later repeated by a reporter from CBC Radio. Harper emphasized in both French and English that the primary concern of the Canadian government today was with short term economic stimulus. In his English answer, Harper said that there would be plenty of time for discussions about the new streetcars.
McGuinty speaking in French said that he was optimistic about assisting Toronto in the purchase of new streetcars, and his tone was much more concilliatory than previous emanations from Queen’s Park. By contrast, to the repeat question in English, we first asked whether the reporter was “working for Miller”, and then complained that Toronto just had one announcement out the door. He settled down to talk briefly about Toronto and Queen’s Park meeting to discuss priorities overall, but seemed testier in the English response.
All in all, I think the funding for streetcars will come, and there is the June 27 deadline for bid validity.
Steve Munro 
With Sheppard East, Finch West and Eglinton all funded, this is a great time for transit in Toronto. I think a lot of the negativity towards Transit City comes from the Toronto inferiority complex that tells us that “real cities” build subway lines. Now it’s up to the TTC to do this right, with effective signal priority and quick and efficient boarding. Unfortunately a lot of people think Transit City is going to be just like Spadina.
I am a little concerned that all the east-west routes are funded while the north-south routes are in limbo. A lot of the people on these routes are going downtown and there’s no capacity left on the Yonge line. Sheppard and Finch will likely be finished before the signal upgrades are complete. Hopefully there will still be some cash left for the Downtown Relief Line, because we’re going to need it.
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Harper had announced in the news conference that the vehicles for the LRT will be from Bombardier. The TTC had earlier last month said that the LRV’s for Transit City is an option if Bombardier gets the streetcar order.
Chicken or egg? Why announce that the federal government will help buy the “option” order first before the “initial” order?
Steve: At this point, I think one major outstanding issue for the new streetcars will be raising the Canadian content well above 25%. If there is a price attached to that, it will affect the subsidy needed from whoever is paying for the cars, and both Ottawa and Queen’s Park need to know exactly what they are signing up for.
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Odd how even at a press conference, they can’t agree on the date…
Steve: Blame the speecwriters. However, I am surprised that McGuinty didn’t pick up on that and just say something like “later this year” to avoid the confusion.
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Were you invited there as a reporter?
I read that the Sheppard East LRT will be funded 2/3 from the province, 1/3 from the federal government, and presumable nothing from the city. Is that different then the funding for the lines that where announced earlier?
Steve: Yes. Eglinton and Finch will be funded 100% by Queen’s Park.
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Finally … Will the project include a direct connection to Scarborough Town Centre via McCowan or will that be added latter on, once the line is completed?
Steve: It’s fairly clear at this point that the RT is going to be extended north regardless of which technology is used. The Sheppard LRT will not directly serve STC. Having said that, remember also that many of the bus routes now feeding into STC will go elsewhere to connected to the extended RT, and a connection from the Sheppard LRT to the Scarborough (L)RT will provide a direct ride not just to STC but to Kennedy Station.
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The project page for the Sheppard LRT was also updated with the choice of LRT-Subway connection: sending the LRT underground at Consumers and meeting the Subway platform below grade at Don Mills.
Steve: The decision to take the LRT to Don Mills was made once the Finch/Don Mills LRT was announced. It makes no sense at all to have everyone change to the subway for one stop just to get between the two LRT lines.
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Is there any chance or discussions taking place about running the new off the shelf bombardier TransitCity LRT vehicles in the existing sheppard subway to avoid having to transfer from subway to LRT at Don Mills station? I would imagine it would be quite easy to convert the sheppard subway to LRT.
Steve: This was proposed as one scheme during the Metrolinx Regional Plan development, but it was discarded probably because it would be politically untenable to confirm that the subway should never have been built in the first place.
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By contrast, to the repeat question in English, we first asked whether the reporter was “working for Miller”, and then complained that Toronto just had one announcement out the door.
I’m not sure I follow – do you mean that McGuinty asked if the english speaking reporter was working for Miller?
Steve: Yes, that’s exactly what he said. It was a rather tasteless remark, and the Premier does himself no good by harping on the degree to which Toronto brings up major funding requests. This was supposed to be an event where everyone was working together. Why insult the Mayor of Canada’s largest city, especially in a forum where he was unable to respond?
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I was posting something on Spacing about the silliness of the Finch – Sheppard LRTs (which now seem to bypass the Sheppard Subway) and postulated that the only logical configuration would be to convert Sheppard to act as a branch of the Yonge line (i.e. every other train terminates at Don Mills instead of Finch). Is this possible or did the TTC only build a single Northbound-Eastbound track connection? It would be so rational and make so much sense to have a Finch-Don Mills-Sheppard LRT collecting traffic at the north end of the city and then feeding it into Finch West, Finch and Don Mills stations for a one-seat ride downtown. The stubway would even be forgotten as it would become completely typical and useful. Am I crazy or should we be pushing for the $100M to dig up and install a Southbound/Westbound track connection as the best way to benefit from the billions invested in the rest of the system?
Steve: There is no south-to-west connection at Sheppard & Yonge, and I suspect it would cost substantially more than $100M to create it given the spiderweb of structures already under the intersection.
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I so wish I was there. Finally the SELRT gets funding……I live in the area.
So to split hairs…when McGuinty & Harper agreed to fund (2/3 and 1/3) SELRT, I am guessing it only means the construction of the line? The tunneling machine for that tunnel/portal somewhere between Hwy. 404 and Victoria Park, the tracks, wires, shelters, etc… but not the streetcars themselves right?
Do you know if each LRT line will have it’s own car? I don’t see where the cars will “sleep”.
Did you noticed how McGuinty mentioned the Finch West line? There isn’t any mention officially on the Finch East/Don Mills “extension”…
Steve: The Finch Don Mills extension was in the previous funding announcement. Yes, the funding includes cars. I need to check about the carhouse for which TTC is already studying sites.
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Fantastic news. I also think with all these transit announcements that the streetcar order will have to be made as well – not only to work the new LRT lines but replace our existing streetcar fleet. I was on the Urban Toronto website and it was said that this Sheppard line is planned to be completed by 2013! I take the Sheppard 85 bus quite often and this corridor is heavily used, even off-peak times. This LRT line will help ease crowding quite a bit on this corridor. Don Mills Station has the eastern terminus of the Sheppard subway, the western terminus of the Sheppard LRT and I heard (might be a rumor) that the Finch LRT might extend east of Yonge to Don Mills then head south on Don Mills to Don Mills Station at Sheppard, this station might also serve the planned Don Mills LRT as well. This will be quite the transit hub and I wonder how buses will get near this station with all the LRT lines planned on entering it from almost all directions.
Steve: Yes, the previous provincial announcement included the Finch LRT east from Yonge and south to Don Mills Station. The Sheppard line will probably go underground east of the DVP, but I don’t know yet what is planned for Don Mills (although a station at the mezzanine level linking up with the Sheppard LRT would be nice. In any event, this will get the LRT off of the street well before the existing station entrances.
Many of the buses that now crowd Sheppard Avenue won’t be there, and eventually when the Don Mills LRT is built, the Don Mills bus won’t exist either. Bus congestion at this location will only be a memory, and we will have a huge underground bus terminal with little service. But that’s a decade away at least.
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I don’t suppose theres much hope of reviving a surface station for the LRT at Don Mills? Everything that caused it to be dismissed is still true, but with both lines I’d think the less than ideal transfer is more than compensated for with a single seat ride to Yonge via Finch (which I suppose we could also get with two mezzanine level stations).
Steve: The proposed Sheppard LRT station will be at the same level as the subway. This means someone transferring to the subway has only to walk along the platform. Someone transferring to the Don Mills/Finch LRT will have to go up to the mezzanine. Remembering that eventually the Don Mills line has to cross the Sheppard line, this makes sense. Also there is likely to be more traffic between the Sheppard LRT/Subway.
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Steve: Many of the buses that now crowd Sheppard Avenue won’t be there, and eventually when the Don Mills LRT is built, the Don Mills bus won’t exist either.
Where would the buses go? Wouldn’t all of the routes except for 85 and 25 (when the Don Mills LRT is built) and possibly 190 still have to go to Don Mills Station? It would be a huge inconvenience to riders to have them transfer from bus to LRT, then from LRT to subway just to get to the Yonge line.
Steve: True, but the frequency of service on those remaining bus routes is low compared with the Sheppard and Don Mills services, and that huge bus loop will be rather lonely. At least they will be able to move all of the services closer to the waiting area.
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Just revealed:
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/index.htm
Steve: This is a notice that the preferred design will bring the LRT in at the same level as the subway line. What is still to come is an overall design for the station including the Don Mills/Finch route and whatever connection will be provided between the two LRT routes.
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Steve, have you heard anything about how the TTC plans to represent the Transit City network on maps? I think it should be shown on the subway/RT map. It’s clearly a higher level of service than other forms of surface transit. The TTC should really play up the metro-like qualities of the LRT network.
Hopefully the TTC will establish headway standards like they have on the subway too.
Steve: I don’t think they have gotten anywhere near figuring out the map graphics, but yes there has been talk of minimum service standards so that people don’t languish forever waiting for the new “rapid transit” service.
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I just had a note emailed to me and it stated the Sheppard LRT will go underground just west of Consumers Rd., the LRT will travel below the DVP/404 and then hook up with the Sheppard subway at the subway’s platform level! Most of us riders of the 85 bus head to the subway anyway so this will ease most of our transfers. It will be a cross platform transfer like the well designed Lionel/Groulx station in Montreal. I think an easy well designed transfer like that would help increase ridership.
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According to the official Ontario newsroom announcement: “The Sheppard East LRT will extend from the Don Mills subway station to Meadowvale Road.” Where exactly on Meadowvale Road it will end? At Sheppard and Meadowvale or at Meadowvale Road and the Zoo? Would boost zoo attendance if it could actually end at the zoo and not having to transfer to a bus.
Steve: The line ends at Meadowvale Road (see map on page 1 of the Executive Summary for the EA). I don’t know of any plan to go to the zoo, but who knows what political gerrymandering we will see in the future.
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“Converting the Sheppard Subway to LRT] was proposed as one scheme during the Metrolinx Regional Plan development, but it was discarded probably because it would be politically untenable to confirm that the subway should never have been built in the first place.”
But the fact that the LRT will share a platform, as it were, with the subway does not exclude the possibility of converting the subway to LRT, does it?
Oh, how good it would be to see egg on MegaMel’s face!!!
Hearing all this news about Toronto (and Kitchener and Hamilton) LRT confirmations and proposals really makes me wish Ottawa City Council would get off their collective “what’s in it for my potential votes” ass and actually make a firm commitment to LRT, no ifs ands or butts!
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I was told by a very reliable source that the hold up for federal funding for the first streetcars is caused by the fact that the city of Toronto is asking for money from the stimulus package for something that will not provide employment in the city of Toronto but rather for Thunder Bay.
I gathered that the problem is not seen as insurmountable.
Steve: Yes, the streetcars are definitely not “stimulus”, but I’m sure Ottawa and Queen’s Park will figure out a way to contribute.
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Wouldn’t it be better to run the Sheppard LRT all the way over to Yonge on the surface, up Yonge to Finch, and then connect it to the Finch LRT there for a continuous route? That way, Sheppard passengers east of Don Mills don’t need to transfer to the subway at all — one less transfer.
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Two points here: one, how does this surface based line in suburban Toronto end up costing more than $60 million a km? I know it’s a lot cheaper than a subway but still seems expensive for a non tunnelled or grade separated line. Second; if senior governments are going to pick up 100% of the cost of most of the Transit City lines, maybe it is valid to suggest that Toronto should pick up all the cost of the new streetcars if they are primarily meant for the legacy (50X) streetcar system.
Steve: The construction cost for the line is $650-700 million with the rest going for cars. Out of that construction budget, the TTC has to build a tunnel from Don Mills Station east to Consumers Road under the DVP and expand Don Mills Station. That will chew up a fair amount of money. The cost per kilometer for the surface portion is much lower when you take that out of the calculation.
As for the legacy system, those are transit routes too. The huge short-term cost comes from replacing the entire fleet in one go, and expanding the overall capacity to make up for ridership growth. Just because one route is in old Scarborough and another in old Toronto doesn’t mean we should have different subsidy arrangements.
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One other point – it seems like the pendulum has swung so far from subway construction that the Sheppard Subway has become a bad memory to be ignored and built around and generally avoided. In terms of developing a network, we should consider connecting the Sheppard Subway to Downsview, especially given that we are spending $2 billion on the Spadina extension to Vaughan. Subways aren’t just about projected demand, but also, as roads are criticized for, induced demand. Creating a subway link between the Yonge and Spadina lines at the north end of the city could have a significant impact on travel and development patterns that shouldn’t be dismissed. Bill Davis built the Spadina line in the 70s in spite of no obvious demand at the time – would we say today it was a mistake?
Steve: The projected demand on a Sheppard West connection is small compared to the cost of building the line. There are also operational issues if the service were to be integrated with the Spadina Service to York U rather than having a transfer connection at Downsview. This is not a question of dismissing the option, but of recognizing that we have a choice. We can continue to spend large amounts of money on small subway expansions, or we can build a larger network to serve a wider area.
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Since the federal infrastructure budget was released, Ontario has announced $9.2 billion in transit infrastructure for the GTA; $7.8 billion of it for TTC (SRT upgrade and extension; Eglinton RT, Finch LRT, and Eglinton LRT). And the federal government has announced $0.3 billion.
Let’s just round that:
Ontario – $9 billion
Canada – $0 billion
So where’s the other $8.9 billion?
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The more details of the presser that come out, the more it sounds like the legacy order will be funded; Dalton’s comments to the effects that he “sees them in a very positive light” are certainly much more encouraging than what we heard a few weeks ago. Also, the elaborately-staged photo-op involving an old streetcar, and the choice of Hillcrest and not somewhere closer to the Sheppard route, were odd choices if the legacy order is really in doubt. Perhaps some kind of signal was implied.
Of course, this brings us back to the essential absurdity of guessing, in an ostensibly functional and transparent Western democracy, at the meanings of vague and contradictory emanations from the organs of state. It reduces us transit-watchers to the position of Kremlinologists, trying to figure who’s in and who’s out based on their positions atop Lenin’s Tomb during the Victory Day parade.
All in all, it’s a shoddy way to run a country, but if it gets us new streetcars and Transit City I will happily restrain my counter-revolutionary tendencies.
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Steve said about converting the Sheppard subway to an extension of the Sheppard East LRT, “This was proposed as one scheme during the Metrolinx Regional Plan development, but it was discarded probably because it would be politically untenable to confirm that the subway should never have been built in the first place.”
That is certainly true at this point in time, however if Transit City is enough of a success, the idea of converting the subway at a future date may become politically preferable. Time will tell.
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I’m of the same mind as Tom B. when it comes to extending the Sheppard line to Downsview. Its not about servicing the people in that area. Its about all the future users of the Sheppard LRT and Don Mills LRT who are going to/from downtown being able to select the correct downtown subway line (Spadina/University or Yonge) at the north end of the city. This will alleviate the Yonge/Bloor transfer point and also the situation where people go down the Yonge line, through Union and back up University. The expensive option is tunneled subway, but another option is the conversion of the Sheppard to LRT and then move back above ground for the portion between Yonge and Downsview. Close to Yonge its only 4-lanes there so not ROW, but its pretty clear sailing W of Bathurst.
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It wouldn’t make any sense to convert it to lrt just for the simple fact that in reality it would still be a subway only that you would be using lrt technology and not HRT. Even if you convert the line to lrt technology you’re still going to have over built stations with little demand.
Steve: Yes, but with a through run from Downsview to Meadowvale.
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Nick F. transit is not a federal responsibility. We should really be happy for any money. Blame the Ontario government for not giving municipalities the funding powers they need to pay for and build these lines. The feds should be spending transportation dollars on things like VIA rail, border crossings, etc, not tram lines.
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Extending the Sheppard subway to Downsview doesn’t make much sense. It isn’t that valuable of a connection, as it would be a much slower trip downtown than on Yonge, and those bound for York U could just as well take the Finch LRT and the new busway or transfer to the subway at Keele.
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Instead of running the Finch East bypass down Don Mills, should it be extended further east and connected to Sheppard via Vic Park or Warden?
Advantages:
1) Less disruptive for the Finch E service, as a larger part of the route retains direct access to Yonge.
2) LRT service right to Seneca College, rather than 400 m west of it.
3) Less digging at Don Mills, as the connection via Vic Park or Warden would be at surface level. The saving from Don Mills digging should pay for a fair portion of LRT track further east on Finch.
4) Easier to create a non-revenue connectivity between the Finch and Sheppard lines, as both tracks are at surface level. (In case of Don Mills connection, Sheppard is at subway level whereas Finch / Don Mills is at mezzanine).
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Retaining a transfer-free service between the Don Mills station and Scarborough Centre is highly desirable.
That could be either a branch of LRT (but will the combined frequency be consistent with traffic signal priority?), or retention of the express bus.
Steve: Much will depend on the technology choice and routing option for the SRT/SLRT.
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Peter says: Nick F. transit is not a federal responsibility…
True, but welcome to the weird and wild world of fiscal federalism. Provinces (and municipalities) have come to rely on these periodic cash dumps from Ottawa for many of their own responsibilities, notwithstanding the quirks of a division of powers set up nearly 150 years ago. I believe Nick F’s point is that we shouldn’t get too excited (let alone “really happy” as you suggest) about the relative size of the federal contribution to Transit City, especially in light of the 1-to-1 fed/prov ratio promoted in other areas.
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It’s hard to believe that only seven years after its initial opening, Miller and Metrolinx have forever doomed the Sheppard subway to be a stub, an anomaly in our system that exemplifies transit planning at its absolute worst.
So now, west of Don Mills, we have an infrequent bus and a frequent widely-spaced-stop subway, and to the east, we have a frequent streetcar line. Great planning!
Even if the streetcar will be on the same level as the subway, it’s going to be a long walk. Besides, I thought Metrolinx wanted Finch and Sheppard to through-route — this configuration won’t allow that.
I’d like to sentence Miller and Giambrone to 1,000 transfers at this junction. It takes politicals balls to extend the subway, convert the subway, or abandon it altogether. Build a continuous LRT corridor on the surface with stops that are closer together and get rid of the bus and mothball the subway, or, extend the damn subway. Fix the problem, don’t add to it.
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Well, I guess it’s safe to call the coming of new legacy cars a given. I would imagine, though, that the way Ottawa and Queen’s park have put off the announcement of new cars that it just might take a little longer to get the things.
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I agree with Neil, in that the Sheppard line should be reconfigured to meet the current demand whether it will be integrated with the Sheppard LRT Project. However another “crazy” idea would be if the SRT is indeed upgraded to MKII ICTS/ART vehicles that the Sheppard line could be connect to the SRT as a transfer point and share the McCowan Yard.
I know everyone cringes at the idea of another ICTS/ART line in Toronto, but SRT MKI should not be use as a comparison with newer ICTS/ART technology.
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I really do have to agree that Don Mills is going to be a real mess if built as planned. It’s bad enough we’re going to be stuck with a mode break in the middle of Sheppard, but aligning Don Mills and Sheppard LRT’s to prevent through routing is just ridiclous. The part that really bothers me is that not only would a mezzanine or surface level platform end up with a better service, but would also be significantly cheaper.
Add to that for most passengers a single level vertical transfer would probably be faster and definately shorter than planned immitation of a cross platform transfer and I get the feeling (not for the first time either) that the TTC is taking every chance to screw up in Scarborough.
Steve: I very much doubt that there would be through routing of the Finch and Sheppard services> We could have a debate about whether there are more people who would want to transfer to the subway than to the Finch via Don Mills line, but I think that the Sheppard line would win out. If the connection were built at the mezzanine level, it would have to go to the south of the existing mezzanine to avoid conflict with the tunnel connection to the bus loop. I am hoping to pry a preliminary design out of the TTC so that we can discuss something concrete.
As for screwing up Scarborough, I think that various transit agencies, and not just the TTC, do a good job on all of Toronto. Scarborough should stop feeling so hard done by and talk to folks in other parts of town.
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I would like to suggest that there must be a stop/turnback loop at southwest corner of Meadowvale and Sheppard to be underground. This will also serve as streetcar storage and waiting area. On the street level it can be designed as bus transfer bays/drop off/pickup combination. Municipal parking is also needed, otherwise illegal parking will increase into adjoining streets in the community from traffic coming from the border of Scarborough/Pickering area.
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M. Briganti Says: It’s hard to believe that only seven years after its initial opening, Miller and Metrolinx have forever doomed the Sheppard subway to be a stub, an anomaly in our system that exemplifies transit planning at its absolute worst.
So now, west of Don Mills, we have an infrequent bus and a frequent widely-spaced-stop subway, and to the east, we have a frequent streetcar line. Great planning!
There’s a military maxim – Don’t reinforce failure. Just because poor political decisions over-rode good planning a generation ago doesn’t mean we have to expand on those decisons today. Extending the subway east wouldn’t solve the wide-spaced stops and infrequent bus service on the surface you rail against. Abandoning the subway infrastructure to run on the surface is discarding the sunk-costs of those stations and tunnels, adding to the cost by requiring more road-widening and in-street platforms. The prudent thing is to plan building on what we have.
One of the most congested sections of roadway in Toronto is Yonge & Sheppard area, and you want to run surface LRT there on top of the Yonge-line subway? Two higher-level orders of transit on top of each other, to serve the “large” number of people that want to go from Pharmacy and Sheppard to Finch and Bathurst without transferring? That would never fly, from a planning nor a political standpoint – just imagine that public meeting in Willowdale…
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Re: M. Briganti
While it is true that Sheppard subway will remain a stub for long time, its fortunes might brighten if the 401 Express Rail idea is revisited in the long term.
In that case, Sheppard subway might be incorporated into 401 Express Rail. Sheppard has a great connection to Yonge subway, while a connection right at Yonge / 401 would be very difficult to build. Plus, the westerly extension would run very close to the Wilson Yard, which reduces the deadhead trips if subway trains are used for 401 Express.
The line would run mostly elevated over 401 lanes, connecting in the east to STC and then perhaps to one of Lakeshore East GO stations, in the west to Pearson and perhaps Mississauga Centre. The stop spacing, speed, and frequency would be somewhere between the GO train lines and other TTC’s subway lines. For example, the service could be every 5 min from Pearson to STC, and every 15 min to Mississauga and to Ajax.
Bessarion station would be a very odd duck in the above scheme, but so what – it is already built, and servicing it will only add 2 or 3 minutes to the total trip time.
Obviously, such plan won’t be implemented within the 25-year master plan timeframe.
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M. Briganti Says:
May 16th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
“It’s hard to believe that only seven years after its initial opening, Miller and Metrolinx have forever doomed the Sheppard subway to be a stub, an anomaly in our system that exemplifies transit planning at its absolute worst.”
I don’t think that it is fair to blame Miller because he refused to waste more money on a white elephant. You should blame the idiots who built it in the first place.
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