Today, Queen’s Park announced that it would fund three of the Transit City projects — Eglinton, Finch and the Scarborough RT rehab/extension — as well as upgrading of York VIVA BRT corridors with dedicated lanes.
The announcement is fascinating in places for what it does not say, or leaves for future decisions. Despite much of the build-it-yesterday rhetoric accompanying the GO/Metrolinx merger, the design and EA processes now under way will run their course. Indeed, the Transit City projects have been proceeding apace thanks to funding at the municipal level to complete this work without waiting for agencies like Metrolinx to get on board.
The estimated cost for the York VIVA project is $1.4-billion with completion in stages from 2011 to 2013. Lines that will connect with VIVA include the Spadina and Yonge subway extensions although full funding for the latter is not yet in place.
The Scarborough RT will undergo vehicle replacement, infrastructure upgrades and extension to Malvern Town Centre or to Markham Road. This project will cost $1.4-billion “depending on the technology choice”, and construction will run from 2010 to 2015. Connecting lines include “the proposed Sheppard East LRT”.
The Eglinton Crosstown line will run from Pearson Airport to Kennedy with a future extension to Malvern (this is the Scarborough-Malvern TC line). The line will be tunneled between Keele and Leslie, and the total pricetag is $4.6-billion. Constuction will run from 2010 to 2016.
The Finch LRT will run from Humber College to Don Mills, and then south to Don Mills Station where it will connect with the “proposed Sheppard Avenue East LRT”. The project will cost $1.2-billion with construction running from 2010 to 2013.
An obvious question in response to this impressive list is “where’s Sheppard East”? First off, as I noted above, some lines mentioned in the announcement don’t have funding yet, and the Sheppard LRT is mentioned twice. Finch is explicitly listed as an LRT project, and the technology choice for the RT is still up in the air (no pun intended). That choice depends on Metrolinx’ own Benefits Case Analysis (BCA) for Eglinton expected to be available, at least in private session, to the Metrolinx Board this month. We know that the Scarborough RT BCA looked favourably on the LRT option.
There isn’t much point in building one lonely LRT line up on Finch if it wouldn’t be connecting with a larger network, and I think this suggests a larger LRT network is in our future.
Although the source of funding for Sheppard isn’t announced yet, Mayor Miller speaks of construction starting this year on Transit City. The only place that is possible is on Sheppard. Also coming up will be the new streetcar order for the “city” network, yet another opportunity for substantial provincial funding. I suspect there are more rabbits waiting to pop out of one or more hats.
Finally, lest our friends to the west think I have ignored them in my haste to talk about Transit City, Queen’s Park will also fund rapid transit studies in Hamilton. No technology is mentioned. There is strong political support for LRT in Hamilton, but will Queen’s Park and Metrolinx let them build anything more than BRT. A lot depends on what the studies will reveal about demand and development impacts.
Steve Munro 
Regarding the technology choice for Eglinton, wouldn’t the price tag give us some hint of whether this is LRT or RT?
Steve: See my comment about cost in response to Sean Marshall. If the whole line were RT, that would mean that the cost/km for RT is only about $150M on average. With the need to tunnel, I don’t think you could build an RT line for that money.
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One thing I noticed about Eglinton is that the price tag has gone up twice – from $2.2 Billion in the original Transit City plans, to $3.1 Billion as of late last year (based on figures I got for putting together a chart for Spacing), to now $4.6 Billion. What accounts for this massive increase in the estimated costs?
Is the tunnelled section to be longer, or does this include an airport extension that wasn’t part of earlier estimates? Or is this the product of continued bickering between Metrolinx and the City as to technology choice?
Steve: The original figures were low, and the line didn’t go all the way to Pearson. If we assume $300M/km for the 10km underground portion, that’s $3B alone. The remaining 20km cost $1.5B, or $75M/km. I suspect that the tunnel will be built to subway standards to keep those who believe LRT will never work assuaged that it could always be converted. I know these are “back of the envelope” calculations.
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My guess about Sheppard East may have to do with the wrangling over where it will meet the Sheppard subway line. Most of us here still think if the subway will be extended to Consumers to meet up with the LRT, an extension to Victoria Park would make it a more logical hub.
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hmm….so the Finch West-Etobicoke LRT is now the Finch LRT and it’s going to be extended to Don Mills then go south on Don Mills to Don Mills station…
So Don Mills station will become another Kennedy station (mess of transit intersection).
Don Mills Station will have the following go to it (passing or ending):
1) Sheppard stubway
2) Sheppard East LRT
3) Don Mills LRT
4) Finch LRT
They have not figured out how to connect the SELRT to the Sheppard stubway yet, will this mean more delays since now they will have to figure out how to connect 4 routes? however I am assuming #3 and #4 will share the connection.
Sheppard East LRT construction is supposed to start this fall and NO mention? you mention above that there is no source of funding but how can digging being this fall if there is no funding? has Sheppard EAST LRT gone to the bottom of the list? I even asked Mr. Giambrone about the SELRT not being mentioned and if it’s still going on the fall…I live on Sheppard East. I am waiting for an answer…For some reason I think you will give me the admin for your site before I get an answer.
By the way, when was it decided to change the Finch West-Etobicoke LRT to Finch LRT (the extension east of Yonge)?
Steve: The Finch change came because the Metrolinx folks have this fetish for connecting everything up. Their precious plan, the plan that even daring to think it might be flawed (see discussion on DRL) drove them apopletic, got changed by Metrolinx itself without so much as a whisper of public consultation. The folks living on Finch East are going to be very surprised!
As for Sheppard East, you are right that it’s still an unknown quantity, but bringing the Finch line down to Don Mills Station more or less demands that the Sheppard LRT end there too. Otherwise there would be a lot of one-station rides just to make the transfer. David Miller says construction on Transit City starts this year, and Sheppard LRT is the only project far enough advanced for that. The City can build it with its own money just as they have funded all of the EA work to date.
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Hi Steve,
Is it technically possible to build the street median ROW of some TC lines in such a way that it can handle 3-car trains? Or, is 2 cars the absolute limit?
This is relevant for two routes that would have both street-median and fully grade-separate sections, and projected demand at the high end of LRT technology: Eglinton Crosstown, and converted / extended SRT (in case it is converted to LRT).
A fleet of 3-car trains would provide for 50% higher capacity limit than 2-car trains. That capacity will not be needed when the line opens, but might become very handy in future.
Steve: The practical problem is that if you are running 3-car trains, the amount of pedestrian traffic going to and from loading islands at major stops will be a big problem for motor traffic, especially if the ability to leave the right-of-way is constrained as it is on Spadina. A 3-car (90m) train is close to the length of a 4-car subway train. Another problem would be that the amount of road space needed for the widened area at stops would be much longer. This affects things like parking and incursions onto nearby property if the road is barely wide enough.
Lines like Scarborough and Eglinton could be operated with a mixture of 2 and 3 car trains, with the longer units confined to the portion of the line with totally separated running (tunnels, segregated ROW). If we try to run very long trains as a standard, we defeat some of the advantages of “LRT”.
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Just wish this announcement hadn’t been made on April Fool’s Day!
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Hi steve, I was woundering if you could comment more on the Eglinton/Scarborough RT project. Are you saying that its still not finalized whether the line will be a lrt or metro.
Steve: The background info for the announcement includes the following statement about the RT:
The benefits case analysis for Eglinton has not been released yet, and we don’t know where Metrolinx came down on the technology question for that line. However, as I commented in response to Sean Marshall, I don’t think that they could built Eglinton as an RT for $4.6-billion. The central tunnel will chew up close to 2/3 of this, and there simply would not be enough left over to build a fully grade separated structure and elevated stations for the rest of the line.
Another question I had is why are they trying to connect the Finch line to the Sheppard line via don mills. Wasn’t the whole point of having the Sheppard line buried at Consumers road based on the fact that they didn’t want the line running across the 404 at surface. I don’t see how they can avoid this now.
Steve: As I mentioned before, Metrolinx has a fetish for completing lines on maps, and the Sheppard-Finch corridor poses a big problem. Finch is the logical place west of Yonge, but Sheppard makes more sense to the east. This spawned various schemes including (a) converting the Sheppard subway to LRT to provide a continuous route from Scarborough to Downsview, (b) swinging the Finch West LRT down to Sheppard at Downsview Station where it would connect with an extended Sheppard Subway, (c) extending the subway at both ends, west to Downsview and east to at least Consumer’s Road. The subway options are all too expensive for the demand in the corridor. Somehow, the Finch to Don Mills scheme bubbled up as an option, and the cast-in-stone RTP was modified by this substantial change without any discussion.
A side effect of bringing the Finch LRT to Don Mills is that the Sheppard LRT will have to terminate there too. The crossing of Highway 404 will be underground regardless of the technology. The LRT would ramp down at Consumers and come into the east end of Don Mills Station either at the mezzanine or the subway level. There are good arguments for both options, but either way I think an eastern extension of the subway for only one stop is a dead issue.
There may still be pressure to take it further east, but that gets very expensive very quickly, and the demand is not there to justify a full subway.
Meanwhile up on Finch, the plan creates an artificial break at Don Mills and Finch where there is a considerable volume of traffic on the Finch East bus. It’s not going to be practical to transfer all those riders over to the LRT. This is a classic example of ad hoc planning, the very thing Metrolinx was set up to avoid.
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Ottawa is expecting to be hearing very soon about it’s LRT funding, which includes a tunnel through the downtown from approximately Bayview Ave (not quite like the one in Toronto), and the University of Ottawa campus. I wonder if the timing might influence equipment choice: could the Province “force” Ottawa to buy similar vehicles being considered for Toronto (could they do the same to Hamilton or Kitchener?).
Steve: I think there would be considerable pressure, but once any vendor has the Toronto contract in their pocket, they will be able to offer cars to other cities as “add ons” to existing production rather than starting from scratch for a small order. The Toronto deal is important because it will set the de facto LRV vendor for Ontario for decades.
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I sure hope all this announced today won’t turn into an April Fools joke at a later date with some later government saying there is no money to continue building.
Ross
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I watched the announcement on Global TV and they used the term Scarborough LRT, not RT, could this mean that the province is willing to give up on the ICTS finally and build a decent system. It would allow the Finch, Sheppard East and Eglinton LRT to have a connect, even if round about.
I do believe that they want to put shovels in the ground as early as possible to get something under construction before the next election. Is the funding of the WWLRT, Queen’s Quay reconstruction and West and East Donlands, Portlands or whatever in a different budget? Do they have committed money?
Steve: If they want to start construction quickly, leaving aside comparative cost issues I have already mentioned elsewhere in this thread, they will stay away from RT technology and any discussion of possible PPP development and operation in the Vancouver Canada Line mode. All the design and EA work is being done based on surface LRT operation except for the tunnel on Eglinton, and moving to RT would require elevated guideways and stations complete with the issues of neighbourhood blight and a complete rethink of station access and location.
(Before anyone jumps all over be for my reference to “blight” it is important to remember that where there is elevated operation in Vancouver, it is generally on an existing rail corridor, an industrial street, a back lane, or some location where people won’t have to deal with the space under the El as an eyesore. Think of the RT crossing Midland or Brimley. An overpass is comparatively unobtrusive. An elevated in the middle of a road is a completely different matter.)
The Waterfront projects are funded through Waterfront Toronto who, in turn, are funded by all levels of government. They have money for the Queen’s Quay work from Spadina to Parliament, and, I believe, for Cherry Street, but not for the Don Mouth or Port Lands work.
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I heard on the radio that Viva busways will begin construction as well because of this announcement. Does this mean we could see the much needed Highway 7 – Finch busway constructed as a temporary measure until the subway is built, or is this corridor going to remain untouched until the Finch extension is built?
Steve: Yes, VIVA is part of this. I don’t know about the staging in detail (the announcement’s a bit thin on details), but there is strong opposition to putting in a temporary busway before the subway extension goes up to Richmond Hill. However, that extension isn’t funded yet.
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Actually, considering a lot of what goes on with transit in Toronto and environs, making announcements on April 1st is quite fitting.
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Nice to finally see funding for the Transit City plan, however I am still a bit perplexed on the Finch LRT. I do see some benefit to having parts of Finch in the plan, however it seems that with it going to Don Mills, Seneca College would have been a nice connection to have included (in some fashion?). I suspect that maybe this will be part of a larger LRT network in the future. Going south to Don Mills station, will of course, turn Don Mills into an “interesting” hub, however I feel sorry for people wanting to continue east on Finch who now have to transfer (or the Seneca students). What is the logic in doing it in this fashion? Was it simply the idea that since we have the cash, just do it (knowing the future will entail a larger network)?
Steve: As I have written elsewhere in this thread, the Finch to Don Mills scheme has a real back-of-the-envelope feel to it, and obvious questions like “What About Seneca College” are not addressed.
I think that a strong argument can be made for taking the Finch LRT further east. Whether Seneca is the logical place to end, I’m not sure and would have to see more detailed demand studies for the line. Don Mills itself will eventually be a north-south corridor and it doesn’t make sense to have a dog-leg like this.
They have to do a Transit EA for this project, and as it’s a completely new scheme, a fair amount of preliminary design will be needed compared to other, well-advanced TC projects. It is possible that this can be fixed before they actually build this leg. Indeed, it would make sense to build the western part first, and by the time we come to Finch East, circumstances may have evolved.
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Steve says:
“The Finch change came because the Metrolinx folks have this fetish for connecting everything up. Their precious plan, the plan that even daring to think it might be flawed (see discussion on DRL) drove them apopletic, got changed by Metrolinx itself without so much as a whisper of public consultation. The folks living on Finch East are going to be very surprised!”
The problem with Finch East from Yonge Street to Don Mills is its mainly 2 lanes in each direction, so LRT will need to be underground for most of that 6km route. If you’re going to spend that kind of money to dig 6km of underground tunnels,… why not expand the Sheppard Stubway line,… 3 km westward to Downsview station so the Yonge-University-Spadina subway lines will have subway network interoperability,… and extend Sheppard Stubway line 3km eastward to Warden.
And yes, I’m aware of Metrolinx wanting to avoid a North Toronto TRANSFER City Crosstown route,… hence create a route as transferless as possible.
Steve says:
“As for Sheppard East, you are right that it’s still an unknown quantity, but bringing the Finch line down to Don Mills Station more or less demands that the Sheppard LRT end there too. Otherwise there would be a lot of one-station rides just to make the transfer. David Miller says construction on Transit City starts this year, and Sheppard LRT is the only project far enough advanced for that. The City can build it with its own money just as they have funded all of the EA work to date.”
Is it really surprising that Metrolinx left out Sheppard East LRT?
What’s interesting is Metrolinx funding midtown Crosstown,… keeping everyone in midtown Toronto happy. Metrolinx funding Finch West LRT to Don Mills,… keeping everyone in north-west and north-central Toronto happy.
Well, what about folks in north-east Toronto, ie North Scarbaria? What would they be happier with? Sheppard East LRT to Sheppard Stubway then Yonge line or improved and expanded Scarborough RT connecting them to Bloor-Danforth subway line. Can’t have both,… but they got the more expensive and established option. Can’t really complain too much.
Let’s face it,… if Sheppard East LRT went ahead,…. we would never ever see Sheppard Stubway expansion in our lifetime. But this way, with Finch West LRT coming to Don Mills Station (Don Mills Rd & Sheppard Ave East) set for completion in 2013, it’ll bring more demand for transit along Sheppard Avenue East,…. east of Don Mills,…. and maybe enough demand by then to justify a Sheppard Stubway expansion eastward to Scarborough Town Centre,….
And you know how Metrolinx and it’s chair is fetish with east-west travel,… what will they be thinking in 2013 when Finch West LRT (ie North Toronto Crosstown) stops at Don Mills Station,… without any LRT or Subway connection eastward into North Scarborough?
Right now, the City of Toronto and TTC must be thinking,… ok, do we spend almost 1 Billion of our money on Sheppard East LRT now,… or do we wait until Finch West LRT to (Don Mills Rd & Sheppard Ave East) completes in 2013,… and maybe Scarborough RT to Malvern Town Centre (near Sheppard Ave East & Markham) completes in 2015,… and maybe create enough demand for transit travel along Sheppard Ave East to justify expansion of Sheppard Stubway. And you know how badly some folks at the TTC wants to expand Sheppard Stubway. Right now, its in the city of Toronto’s and TTC best interest to hold off any Sheppard East LRT plans,… wait a few year,… and see what Metrolinx will fund along Sheppard East,… transit demand will still be there along Sheppard Ave East in a few years,… question is whether it’ll be still for LRT or high enough for Sheppard Subway expansion. And if Metrolinx picks up the tab,… whether it’s for Sheppard Stubway expansion or Sheppard East LRT,… waiting a few years,… could save the city (and Toronto taxpayers) almost a Billion dollars (cost of Sheppard East LRT).
Steve: To be clear, I didn’t want to imply that the City would pay for the Sheppard East LRT in total, only that they could fund it while awaiting further announcements. Also, I doubt that Finch East would actually be built once people actually look at the neighbourhood in question.
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The Finch LRT could always be looped around Au Large Blvd and then back down Don Mills. Hopefully the time penalty for Don Mills bound riders would only be a few minutes.
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Is it too much to hope this announcement of LRT along Eglinton to Pearson Airport will finally kill off the ridiculous Blue 22? Sure would make a lot of people in Weston happy! The whole Airport train along the GO route makes no sense.
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Although Finch East is a busy corridor, I don’t think it makes sense to build both a Sheppard East and a Finch East LRT because they are too close together. In particular, it makes no sense to build a Finch East LRT that ends at Don Mills. Thus, it would seem to me that Finch East should be built as BRT. In my opinion, Kipling would be a much more suitable corridor for phase 2 of Transit City because it is quite dense and far away from other planned Transit City lines.
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Regarding Sheppard East: after all, extending the Sheppard subway to create a fast E-W backbone across the north of 416 is not a bad idea.
I anticipate objections based on the demand forecasts, but what about the speed? The city is wider in the north than in the south, due to the lake’s geometry. The proposed Finch-Sheppard LRT combo won’t be too attractive for longer trips, as it would not be fast. And, there is no alternative fast E-W corridor across the north (unlike the Eglinton corridor, which is close enough to Bloor subway and to the Midtown rail line).
The Mlinx’s demand forecast is 3,000 pph for Sheppard E LRT, or 5,000 for the eastward subway extension. But what if the subway is extended both east and west, and in the west, interlined with the Spadina extension to reach York U and Steeles West Stn? Would the patronage grow to 7,000 or 8,000 pph at peak?
The total cost of Sheppard subway extension would be high, but it could be phased in in a manageable way. For example, if the first phase is Don Mills to Kennedy (5 km), it would cost 5 x 300 = about 1.5 B.
That amount would be partly offset by saving about 400 M on the Finch E – Don Mills LRT link, and about 300 M due to the shortening of Sheppard LRT (the latter would then run east of Kennedy).
So, the net extra cost for {Phase 1 subway extension + LRT on the rest of Sheppard E + Finch W LRT} would be about 800 M compared to the cost of the current (LRT crosstown) plan. Not a small change, but not exorbitant either, and probably worth the benefit.
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If, however, they rule out the Sheppard subway extension, then solution #2 should be two parallel LRT lines, Finch E and Sheppard E. At least, that would support the existing travel patterns rather than disrupt them – and at the same time, create a crosstown LRT line they want (Finch W + Finch E).
Steve: From what I’ve heard, the idea of extending the Sheppard Subway over to Downsview has more or less fallen off of the table. Also (and I don’t wan’t to get into a huge debate in this thread) the idea of interlining with the Spadina line is unworkable both because of the planned headway on that line, and because trains (and stations) on Sheppard are only 4 cars long. If this is part of your proposal, you must add in the cost of the western extension, at a minimum.
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I really think Metrolinx should just turn the Sheppard Subway into an underground LRT and connect the Finch West with Sheppard east systems seamlessly. We all know any subway extension will not be on Sheppard anytime soon so why don’t we just bite the bullet admit our mistake.
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We can hope that the Finch East section is built to handle buses running the the ROW too, so long-haul riders needn’t transfer. The eventual completion of Finch east is the only logical conclusion.
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With respect to the VIVA lanes, I don’t believe that the Yonge Street corridor from Highway 7 down to Steeles will be a part of this, though Steeles to Finch might be. This second stretch was to be a TTC initiative and I am not sure what its status is, but from Steeles north to Highway 7, York Region put it on hold over a year ago pending what might happen with a subway expansion.
Since then, all other VIVA bus lane plans proceeded through their EA process. There is a map at http://www.vivayork.com/downloads/november_28/vivaNext_route_map.pdf that shows the planned phases. Note that Richmond Hill Centre to Finch is “subway extension”. The busways in the first phase would involve the Highway 7 corridor from Markham Centre (the new “downtown Markham” around the Unionville GO station) west to past the Vaughan Corporate Centre. This phase would also involve Yonge Street from Richmond Hill Centre north to 19th Avenue, and another stretch in Newmarket including two new sections along Davis Drive and Green Lane.
I don’t know if today’s announced funding would allow the second phase to be built now or not, but I have my doubts partly due to the fact that these are not so far along in their EA process.
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Look at the official announcement carefully. The technology is clearly indicated between brackets — Finch is going to be LRT, but the SRT and Eglinton line will be “RT”. I can’t believe you missed that!
Steve: The announcement says explicitly that the technology is still to be chosen for Scarborough, and I know from other sources that the discussion for Eglinton continues. Also, the Hamilton study refers to “RT”, but I very much doubt they mean a network of ICTS. You are grasping at straws.
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As someone living at Don Mills and Finch, I can say that a LRT on Finch East to Don Mills is a terrible idea. It really is drawing on a map. Out of the 4 possible transfer connections, the LRT route is the least in demand. There is also no space there for any kind of transfer facility, unless its on the Seneca College grounds, which is quite a distance away, and so Finch buses will probably be routed to Yonge anyways, or even worse, to Don Mills station. It would completely disrupt everything on the line.
The best solution is probably the 2 parallel lines, with Finch East going to say, McCowan or at least Kennedy, and then it can even swing down to STC. But if this jog is so desired, at least connect at Victoria Park, which would serve Seneca, as well as spreading the demand out at Don Mills. There really is no benefit of having Finch/Sheppard connect at the same place with Don Mills, and no need to connect Finch with the stubway. This way, sheppard/finch passengers would transfer at Vic Park/Sheppard, while sheppard passengers heading west would get on the subway or Don Mills LRT at Don Mills station.
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@Raymond Jean:
Just because a road is only 4 lanes wide does not preclude surface LRT. I don’t see enough money in the proposal for road widening so I think you need to prepare for two of those lanes disappearing in favour of rails. Drivers will be horrified, but in the long run it really is for the best. LRT can move far more people per hour than a lane of cars traveling at optimum speed.
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Regarding Sheppard being 4 trains long, all the platforms were built so as to easily extend to enough room for 6 cars if and when needed. Am not saying it is the thing to do but it was built with that option in mind.
Steve: Yes, but both the station expansions and the additional cars to extend the trains are costs that were not included in Rainforest’s comparison.
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Eglinton is already a dynamic street with lots of pedestrian traffic. It will be well served by rapid transit-finally!
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RE: Finch East and Seneca, it is only a short walk (500m / ~6min, according to Google Maps) from Finch & Don Mills to the existing bus loop. I rode the 39 there from Finch subway for a year, and I don’t think it should be too much of an issue.
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In regards to the Finch LRT going east to connect to Don Mills station, I recall years ago of a bit of an impasse in the planning of either the Sheppard subway or the one-time GO-ALRT project (or perhaps both) because North York favoured a Finch alignment and Scarborough favoured a Sheppard alignment. At the time, I recall thinking that a reasonable compromise might be to connect the two with an alignment along/above the 404. So how might this work for the LRT plans? (I’m not advocating this, just throwing it out for discussion!)
If Finch continued east to the 404, that would serve Seneca nicely. It could proceed down the 404 right of way, likely elevated with a stop at Van Horne. Just before Sheppard, it could descend into a tunnel and connect with the Sheppard line with a junction not unlike one of the proposals for Queen’s Quay/Bay, though with a little more room for broader curves.
Two drawbacks of this are that service to Don Mills station has to double-back along Sheppard and this line parallels the future Don Mills line, which already has the RTP pushing it up to Highway 7. I would suggest that not all service would need to double-back to Don Mills, but could continue eastward, though not necessarily all the way to Meadowvale (maybe even only as far east as Kennedy – let demand dictate the best turn back location). This would have the advantage of providing riders wishing to travel through to Yonge Street with that treasured one-seat ride that may be a couple of minutes faster by avoiding the extra dwell time at Don Mills station that will likely be needed and all the traffic lights on the 2 km stretch up to Finch.
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$1.4 billion to support a useless and worthless express bus in York?
What are those guys smoking? That damned express bus system is nothing but a major financial sinkhole and they keep pumping money into that moneypit. Whatever they spent on this system, I have not been able to see the benefit. That 1.4 billion could have been better off starting a real transit solution that York seems so terrified to even think of.
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Finch east (between Yonge & Don Mills) might be only 2 lanes each way, but I think there is enough room for expansion on both sides to add LRT lanes avoiding tunneling. Also, to those that say finch and sheppard are close enough that they both don’t warrant LRT are wrong. There is already enough ridership on both these lines that an LRT is justified. Ending Finch East at Don mills subway doesn’t make any sense though. It needs to go east to at least McCowan.
Wasn’t there a plan to have a Don Mills N-S LRT in the original TC announcement? Why not plan for that instead of closing off the Finch East line at Don Mills?
Steve: Yes, there is a Don Mills TC line. It’s just not one of the top 3. There’s also the little matter of the section south of Eglinton and whether it should be a continuation of the LRT line (if so, what alignment), or a northern part of the DRL east.
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Here’s an article by Sue Ann Levy:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/sueann_levy/2009/04/02/8972146-sun.html
Mind you, I do agree with her counterpoint on this one.
Steve: If Sue Ann could just stop Miller bashing for a moment and address the issues without the political vitriol, her arguments might get a better hearing from people like me who don’t regard every issue in the “Right is always right” framework.
Her comments about St. Clair and its cost are valid, but only up to a point. When that project was proposed, everyone balked at paying such a “huge” sum for the line even though it’s a fraction of the cost of other transit projects. Work to improve (in theory) the look of the street was not an essential part of the project, but was added on thereby boosting the cost. The locals did their own damage with a one-year stoppage for legal challenges.
For me that the line still looks clunky, and there are areas where the loss of sidewalk space is very hard to swallow. Some of that is thanks to left turn bays, some to parking spaces. This is an issue on the western part of the line, but nobody is listening including the local councillor.
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Putting the Scarborough RT works to one side, it’s interesting how the two LRT lines funded are 1) the biggest and 2) run east-west. The net result will no increase in capacity between downtown and the suburbs. Normally funding goes to radial routes first, orbital routes second (if at all). Still, I’m not complaining.
I agree Metrolinx has a very strong desire to join everything up, but this might be because the city doesn’t … my first though on seeing the transit city plans was the lack of connectivity between lines – it didn’t seem to be a *network*. (Expecially how the Jane LRT would stop 2km short of the Waterfront LRT). So I think these changes are a good thing.
Steve: Drawing lines on a map requires some real-world understanding of geography and how people travel. The area between Jane Station and the WWLRT is occupied by a rather tony, low-density residential district. It would be extraordinarily difficult to thread a surface line through the area, and moreover I have a hard time thinking why anyone would actually need it.
This reminds me of one TTC planner of yesteryear who cooked up a night bus route map with the Jane bus going straight south to The Queensway. The assumption was that people would be able to walk to it from a considerable east-west distance notwithstanding the presence of Grenadier Pond to the east and the Humber River to the west.
Personally, I will be quite surprised to see the Jane line ever built south of Eglinton due to problems with available right-of-way and the local demand.
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Comments from out west in Vancouver.
May I suggest that someone dust off the TTC’s 1983 Advanced Rapid Transit Study (ARTS) and compare ICTS (RT) and LRT and see if the numbers are pertinent.
Vancouver’s RAV/Canada Line is a metro, using Rotem’s generic metro cars which are larger than Bombardier’s ART (Mk.2 SkyTrain cars), which would mean a tear down of the existing Scarborough RT and replacing with a brand new elevated guideway. Vancouver’s Canada Line is not compatible with SkyTrain.
Hamilton rejected ICTS (RT) in the 80’s and I doubt they would want an elevated transit system, incompatible with what Toronto has.
In Europe, road lanes are seen as ‘lanes of capacity, with one road lane equal to about 1,200 to 1,400 persons per hour per direction. Replacing pavement with rails for LRT (tram in Europe) is seen as increasing capacity to 20,000 pphpd! Thus its easier for transit engineers to persuade the public of the importance of converting road to rail. Building LRT on-street means its cheaper to build, cheaper to operate, and most importantly much more convenient for the transit customer.
Modern modular LRT vehicles have done away with operating with 2-car or 3-car trains ans it is cheaper to operate 1 longer vehicle than 2 in MU. Strasbourg’s Jumbo’s have a capacity of 350 persons.
Final note: Vancouver’s TransLink is a disaster, much hated by the regional public who have no say how this ossified bureaucracy runs. Cut through the hype and hoopla and one sees bad planning and uncontrolled spending on nebulous transit projects. I hope your Metrolinx fares better.
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While they still need to finalize vehicle choices, there will also be need for yards for all the extra vehicles, and certainly they need to establish whether or not we are talking high-platform level-entry vehicles or low floor. Which begs the question: are we soon to have 4 different breeds of rail vehicles on the TTC? 1 – existing streetcar routes, 2 – RT new vehicles, 3 – subway and 4 – Transit City. Mockups in the presentation suggest double-ended vehicles, but obviously the streetcar system has loops instead at the ends.
If they are sharing the same vehicles for Transit City and the downtown streetcars, they’ll need to join the two with really long non-revenue tracks, as there are no immediate plans for Transit City in between. Where do you suppose storage yards for Eglinton or Finch could be built? I confess I haven’t had time to read through the entire proposal yet.
Steve: The TTC is already studying potential locations for carhouses and will likely propose one each in the northeast and northwest. The big question hinges on the technology choices for Scarborough and Eglinton. Although there is still an ICTS faction here, these lines cannot be built or expanded as planned for the kind of money now on the table.
Ideally, the TC cars should simply be double-ended variations on the “city” fleet to maximise interchangeability of parts and standardize operations. Both sets of cars will be low floor as this greatly simplifies station design for the new lines.
Don’t forget, by the way, that we will soon have two different breeds of subway cars — the existing 75-foot long H/T cars and the Toronto Rocket unit trains.
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Would it not be feasible to connect the Finch and Sheppard E lines into one whole? They could run from Finch down on Don Mills, connecting to the Subway and DM LRT (which, when it comes time to expand northwards would use the same section of ROW).
This means no transferring for those wanting to go further East/West (it would be interesting to see the modal split between the Sheppard subway to Yonge vs the S-F LRT from East of DM to Yonge – would people transfer an extra time to get underground?).
As for Seneca, it’s a block from Finch/Don Mills – not fun in February to be sure, but nothing insurmountable… there are parking spaces on Seneca property that are further away from the campus buildings…
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Just ran some back of the envelope calculations on what $4.6-billion would get you for 31 km of Eglinton LRT, and I’m seeing 12 underground stations from Keele to Leslie and an additional 14 surface stations from YYZ to Keele and from Leslie to Kennedy. That does give you system interchanges with the Jane, Spadina, Yonge, and Don Mills lines, and it also offers station spacings on the order of 800 metres on the 10-km underground portion, and of 1,500 metres on the 21 km of surface-level right of way. I’m curious to know what kind of feeder and park-and-ride provisions are being contemplated to feed the outer stations on the line.
Steve: The outer stations will be MUCH closer than 1500m. The street grid is only 1000m from Victoria Park eastward. Moreover, the whole idea of surface LRT is to stimulate medium density development along the line, not at widely spaced stations. The line is intended to serve people ON Eglinton, not to be a catalyst for parking lot construction.
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One thing I’ve been pondering about the Finch LRT is will they seriously consider using the hydro corridor for the segment east of Yonge Street. Road width issues aside, the river valleys between Bayview and Leslie will limit the ability to add density along the south side of Finch.
Steve: My understanding is that Hydro is less than ecstatic about the use of their rights-of-way for new transit lines. Also, you would have to design a way to get from an on-street configuration west of Yonge north to the right-of-way. I am sure it’s possible, but likely tricky given existing structures at Finch Station.
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What they should have done with Sheppard/Finch/Spadina:
1)When building Spadina subway to York, also extend Sheppard Line west to Downsview and from there to York in parallel w/ Spadina (they do it in London, lines running parallel a few stops).
2) Then push Sheppard to STC (via LRT or as much subway as poss.). So we’d have major east-west route w/ minimal interchange, adding awesome flexibility, and Sheppard becomes useful.
3) Connect this hyper-spazzed Sheppard line with Finch LRT at Keele/Finch subway.
4) So Finch just ends at Keele not Yonge (as Sheppard line to STC takes care of cross town duties).
This way so Rexdale-Scarborough trips would be a lot more attractive: Instead of LRT, the Yonge line, the Sheppard line, and then an LRT. Just take LRT and Sheppard subway.
Steve: This is all very nice, but first off, such a trip will take the Finch LRT followed by the Sheppard LRT. More to the point, what vast number of people actually make this trip? Why to we insist on gerrymandering the system for such hypothetical passengers?
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So, interlining Sheppard to the Spadina extension is interesting. The Spadina extension would then give fast and transferless access to North York and to the Don Mills/Sheppard East LRT lines. You would really make the Finch East option dramatically less interesting, and the tunnelling costs (6km for LRT) on Finch East are probably equivalent or higher to the Downsview extension (3 km for RT).
I think it’s a falsehood (or perhaps an indictment of current technology?) that you would have to run monolithic train sizes. BART in San Francisco successfully varies from four to ten cars depending on which destination is next. You would need some signage and some automated announcements in place so people know where the train will stop, but that’s not a significant barrier, IMO.
Basically, what I would see as viable is:
* Short turn every other northbound Spadina train at St. Clair West (AIUI, volume drops off significantly north of there, the 6/7 car trains will be able to carry the volume just fine beyond that, albeit at 5-6 minute headways instead of the current rush hour 2-3, but that’s just smart utilization, I think riders will deal)
* All other trains go to the terminus (Steeles West or Vaughan or whatever)
* Sheppard trains already run on the 5-6 minute headway we then have north of St. Clair West, so it should be easy to get the spacing workable.
Cost is probably $600M for the 3km of tunnels to extend Sheppard to Downsview, plus some small finite amount for signage improvements. We’re already getting “next train” tech, it shouldn’t be hard to tack “what type of train” onto that system unless the system is a total hack…
Key wins:
* Finch East LRT becomes really unnecessary, especially since people can transfer from Finch West to the Sheppard Line and get to the same endpoint faster/better.
* Connects Vaughan etc to North York without hoop-jumping
* Better utiilization of new trains for Y-U-S
* More resiliency in the system for getting around issues on the Yonge line, increasingly important as we push it to its peak capacity over the next 20 years.
Steve: FYI the TTC plans to extend the short turn point north from St. Clair West in stages to at least Downsview, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see serious lobbying for this to go to York U. The feasibility of this also depends on whether they are going to push the headway down well below 2 minutes as planned, or build the DRL to offload the peak points on the BD and YUS line.
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Greg Smith Says:
“RE: Finch East and Seneca, it is only a short walk (500m / ~6min, according to Google Maps) from Finch & Don Mills to the existing bus loop. I rode the 39 there from Finch subway for a year, and I don’t think it should be too much of an issue.”
This makes sense to you (and it makes total sense to me), but the “facts on the ground” prove otherwise here. To my long-standing surprise, there are a substantial number of people (almost all young, able-bodied students) who will get on the Finch bus at Don Mills to go that very short distance to Seneca, rain or shine. We can say, “it’s only a six minute walk”, but just doesn’t mean that people are going to go for it.
Steve: It’s not just the walk to the campus, but then the walk in the campus to the destination. People can accept the need to walk once they get off the street, but making them take a longer walk onstreet where they now have direct service is a real stretch.
My big problem here is that this Finch East extension has never been part of the RTP and has never had any formal study or public feedback for its effect on the transit system. Issues like Seneca and the through riders from east of Don Mills would have come up if only they had bothered to check.
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