Tonight, January 13, the topic on Goldhawk Live will be Blue 22, a.k.a. the Toronto Air Rail Link.
I will be appearing with members of the Weston Community Coalition.
TTC Chair Adam Giambrone is expected to participate by phone early in the show.
Rogers Cable 10 tonight at 7:00 pm. Repeats Wednesday at 4:00 am and 9:00 am.
Steve Munro 
Thanks for the post.
It just started. This would be interesting as I don’t have all the info.
Sweet, you are just now on.
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You know they mispelt your last name eh Mr. Munroe.
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I guess I wont be watching, oh my Bell Expressview sucks.
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I think I remember hearing that electrifying the line would be very expensive. Are there any ideas as to how much that would cost?
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I had a tear in my eye. Giambrone mentioned a route from Scarborough to the airport. One point for Scarbourgh……….now the bad part: Thompson and De Baeremaeker are gone and only one commissioner is from Scarborough……..I still say good.
I almost wanted to call and ask Suri Weinberg-Linsky, she went on about splitting the community.
One part of me says the following: suck it up Weston, you got annexed 42 years ago. Weston has 16,470. A Rail link that goes from International airport to downtown is important to the city’s economy. So 16,470 not being happy over the better of 3,500,000 is worth it.
The other part of me says: the Rlink should NOT be private, SPECIALLY from the same operator as the 407
the third part of me says: Not everyone lives in Downtown Toronto, let’s forget outside Toronto for now, I live in Agincourt (North-West Scarborough), The only ways for me and the other half a million Scarborough citizens are:
1) Taxi ($80-$100)
2) TTC- Let’s take it from Sheppard Avenue East and Warden Avenue…
68 Warden Southbound to Warden Station, West to Kipling, 192 Airport Rocket
I refuse to try to go to Lawrence West Station for 58A Malton.
300A I took it once and it was beyond horrible
307 I never took.
3) Go Transit – Go to York Mills or Yorkdale for the Local Brampton bus.
I like Giambrone’s words about Finch West and Eglinton Crosstown LRTs.
I can’t remember who said it but I sometime I want you to hear you say this: NOT EVERYONE GOES DOWNTOWN FROM THE AIRPORT.
By the way, since the fare will be $20 (let’s say $22.60 for taxes) EACH WAY…
Using Go Transit from Toronto Union Station……..
To Barrie South Go Station: $20.90
To Hamilton Go Centre: $18.00
To Oshawa Go Station: $15.50
This is return service……$40…$45.20 for taxes.
Last trip (October 2008) I came from Europe, took the Go Transit Bus to York Mills (it stopped in Yorkdale) which was under $5, someone picked me up from York Mills.
I have a conflict to decide Weston’s concerns vs. the rest of the city (16,470 vs. 3,5000,000).
I travelled through the capitals of Europe using their rail links but as a Scarborough citizen I hate going downtown to go to the airport and wish that Local Brampton would get extended to Scarborough Town Centre.
I am also in conflict that downtown will get a direct link to/from the airport vs. North York and Scarborough.
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Considering Toronto’s rail network, unless we dive in and opt for a full-scale subway or LRT, the options are rather limited. You can
A) Go all the way downtown via Dundas West Station, eastward options basically being the Lakeshore East line
B) Head North and East via CN’s mainline through suburbia
C) Head East via CP’s mainline, possibly connecting to the 512 St. Clair, but completely missing the B-D subway line, and hitting the Yonge line right where congestion will be building up, however eastward expansion has the potential to cross paths with the Eglinton sub/LRT, Sheppard LRT and others.
D) Go to Brampton.
Given that we seem not to be adding to our rail network aside from increasing capacity on existing lines, downtown via Bloor is probably the best option. If this were a GO route, then a transfer point might be added at the Crosstown/Milton line junction, adding many more connections, but alas it is not.
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Otherwise, in the wishful thought of railroad expansion, what about the hydro corridors? GO’s original BRT plan called for use of the Finch hydro corridor, which hits pretty close to the airport.
Steve: Generally speaking, hydro corridors are not much good for routes that go where people actually want to travel. They’re fine for express links (such as the use of part of the Finch corridor for the York U busway), but major transit links need to stay on main roads like Finch itself.
That said, there is a proposal for a branch of the Finch line to swing southwest down the hydro corridor to reach the airport.
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On the “suck it up weston” comment
I agree fully with the sentiment. Neighbourhoods closer to downtown get to veto good transit (and transportation) for neighbourhoods farther away. Unfair to say the least.
As for a line from scarborough to the airport – um, the eglinton LRT?
As for blue 22 – don’t like it. I don’t see why GO cannot do the route.
Steve: Weston is simply asking that the line not split their neighbourhood in two, and that it avoid being a noisy, polluting intrusion.
While we’re on the issue of “sucking it up”, the next time someone tells me we need a subway rather than LRT because they don’t want to yield road space, maybe I should just tell them to stop being such crybabies.
Downtown, the City is proposing a $100-million-plus project at the Strachan Avenue crossing to avoid dividing neighbourhoods. Weston is asking for the same consideration.
I agree that this should be a GO operation (presuming that it’s a mainline rail service). The real challenge is the link into the airport. If only trains westbound from Toronto can enter the airport spur line, then travellers from points west need a convenient transfer point where they can switch, easily, and at no fare penalty, between an inbound GO train and an outbound airport train.
The idea that we would have three separate carriers — GO, VIA, Blue 22 — operating in the same corridor each with their own fares is a huge embarrassment in a region where we are supposed to be integrating services.
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Of course “NOT EVERYONE GOES DOWNTOWN FROM THE AIRPORT.” But it is the single most popular destination due to frequent business travellers and tourists going to their hotels as well as the growing downtown residential population. Look around the world. Every self-respecting city with an airport link takes it to DOWNTOWN. This is not to say other destinations could not also be served but DOWNTOWN is THE single most important destination.
Also, from what I’ve heard, many Weston residents aren’t opposed to a link categorically. They would just prefer light rail that serves their community as well with a stop or two. Makes perfect sense to me.
Steve: Under 20% of travellers to the airport originate downtown. As a premium fare service, it only makes sense for someone close to Union Station. Someone further north would be just as well to take the subway to Kipling and the airport bus, all for one TTC fare.
In my own case, starting from Broadview Station, I could likely get to the airport in close to the same time as going down to Union and taking the “express” train. The problems of schlepping luggage (not always an issue for lightly-loaded business traveller, by the way) afflict anyone who has to use the subway (let along any surface routes) to get to Union Station.
Once the Eglinton line is built (which will be underground through the centre part of the city), there will be convenient connections at Eglinton and Eglinton West Station.
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@Miroslav
You are right not everyone goes from the airport to downtown and not everyone that goes to the airport comes from downtown. That is why we need to make the Airport area/region/lands/whatever you want to call it a transit Hub on or near the scale of Union Station. That includes local transit, TTC, Brampton, Mississauga, YRT; intercity transit GO, Greyhound, etc; and potentially much higher order transit such as VIA.
A downtown link is only part of the solution.
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I am perhaps the only Weston resident here.
Honestly I am appalled that people here have made such callous statements about carving up the area.
If the design of the line was done in a more neighbourhood friendly way than just putting in a private rail route, there would be little opposition.
My neighbours and I largely support a GO run project that would see an electrified service that offers a few stops to make it a valuable addition to the area instead of a poor substitute.
Speaking strictly for myself I would be thrilled if such a line begun at the airport and had a stop at the Weston GO station, Eglinton for the Crosstown line, Bloor and perhaps Union or some variation of this.
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Steve,
Taking into consideration what John Galeazza said at my comment (which is good).
Why does the airport rail link have to go downtown? what about Mississauga/Brampton? What do you think of Union Station-Pearson-Square One? (appropriate stops in between as well).
Also if there are too many stops in between, then the express part of Blue 22 would make it no different than me going from Warden Station to Kipling (30-45 minutes i think) then 192 Airport Rocket which adds, what another 20-25 minutes?
If Eglinton and Finch LRT’s grab the airport then that is good, then what about something towards mississauga and brampton? At some time I would love to see you connect the dots between Pearson and connections to the Greater Pearson area (which is not just Downtown Toronto).
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“Steve: Under 20% of travellers to the airport originate downtown. ”
Which is still the single, biggest chunk. Your (and others’) knee-jerk anti-downtown bias is disturbing. Why do you insist on seeing it as a mutually exclusive argument? A downtown link could connect with Eglinton, Bloor and perhaps somewhere between Bloor and Union. Of course everyone wants the link to go to their own neighbourhood but how much sense does that make?
Name a city anywhere in the world that runs an airport link to some far-flung suburb rather than the centre of town. How would it be if Chicago ran it’s O’Hare line along its sparsely populated, western periphery?
Steve: I’m not saying the line should not go downtown, only that airport service involves a lot more than a point-to-point downtown service. That’s what was originally proposed and until recently the only thing on the table.
By the way, the CTA link to O’Hare is a LOCAL train that stops at many, many stations on its way into the loop. It is not by any stretch of the imagination an express service to the airport.
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Why just operate a service to Union? In Oslo, the express train, Flytoget, operates every 10 minutes from the airport to Oslo Central Station, with every other train operating all the way to Asker, west of the city. Consider a service from Pearson that has every other train continuing east to perhaps Pickering or even Oshawa.
Pearson is a bit different in that it can serve as a multi-directional hub, where Oslo’s Gardermoen is somewhat out of the way. Even so, Flytoget does server several stops within the greater Oslo area and people also have the choice of taking a commuter rail train (more comparable to GO’s operation) if they don’t mind a few more stops for a slightly lower price. To compare, from Gardermoen (the airport) to Asker (the western-most station), the fare is about CAD$40 for Flytoget, taking 48 minutes or about CAD$20.50 for a NSB train, taking about 59 to 66 minutes.
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Regarding the “Weston suck-it-up” comments. Let’s hope that your neighbourhoods don’t encounter similar treatment, as something gets thrust your way, damaging your quality of life for the good of the region. Heck, don’t you think that’s the same sort of attitude given by some people towards those who spoke out against the Spadina Expressway? “Suck it up, Annex! I don’t care if I destroy the value of your home; I’ve got to get to my destination a few minutes faster. See ya!”
Weston in particular has had a harsh history over the past fifty years. They’ve had industry pull out or shut down, and they’ve had more than their fair share of public housing. The neighbourhood has been pretty ill-treated, and they deserve a bit more consideration than they’ve been given.
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Just watched the broadcast.
The Weston debate seems to focus on Blue 22. Any discussion to service the airport could end today, and it would really change little to what is going to have to happen to the railway line through Weston.
GO2020 calls for all the Brampton (Georgetown) and Bolton GO trains to run through Weston. So peak service will see 6 trains an hour in one direction, and 2 trains an hour in the other. This will be a train on average every 7.5 minutes – not including any VIA or airport services.
Grade separation (which seems to be the primary Weston issue) will have to occur whether an airport service is constructed or not. As such Blue 22 is a bit of a red herring.
The other Weston issues seem to be lack of local service – which I don’t even understand given that GO is talking about frequent local service, and noise. I can understand their issue about dividing the community, and this should be dealt with. But noise? It’s the widest rail corridor into the biggest city in the country. I hear the Lakeshore East trains rattling past my house – it’s not a big deal.
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Steve, I’m well aware the CTA’s O’Hare link is a local, having ridden on it the summer before last while it was undergoing renovations that caused it to take a gruelling hour, at least, to get me downtown. Nothing would make me happier than if our link was a local. You can see in my above post a couple likely stops mentioned. Local stops would do wonders for the area.
In fact my preference would be for TTC-integrated LRT from Union to Pearson on the Weston ROW, then looping through the airport to run down the Eglinton LRT line to Scarb. A mirroring, Union-northeast LRT could run on the other side of town to link ends in Scarb like a big mobius strip. Beauty, huh?
People wrongly use the negatives of Blue 22 to shoot down categorically the idea of an airport link.
Steve: For clarity, I am not opposed to serving the airport, but the original idea of a privately run, premium fare, express Union-Pearson service is a train that left the station years ago.
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Actually, the biggest ticket for Weston, as I understand it, is not just grade separation (which is actually more about not permanently closing streets off where at-grade crossings exist), but also electrification of the line because they don’t want the noisy and stinky diesels at high frequencies through their neighbourhood. There’s no argument that electric trains generate less noise (in terms of engine motive power… rail-wheel noise would be unaffected). Electric trains might also generate less airborn dust when passing, as they have less engine-generated air-flows and weigh less. High dust levels in the air around Weston (among other communities) in the corridor has previously been a highlit concern, not sure if it still is or not.
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“noisy and stinky diesels”
What’s this obsession with “stinky diesels”. I’ve never caught any odour from one, even when living near the tracks, or standing on overpasses with them standing underneath.
Any odour from the trains is miniscule compared to the odour coming from the nearby 4-lane street (which I’ve learned to not jog along …).
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I’ve got to lay my bias out here up front. One of my best friends is working hard for the Weston Coalition, and as such I’ve been given an up-close view of the neighbourhood’s beefs with the Blue 22 proposal that has galvanized the neighbourhood.
And I can’t stress enough how galvanized the neighbourhood has been. A public meeting in the Strachan area drew less than 100 people. A similar meeting in the Malton area drew a similar number of people. So many people showed up to the initial Weston public meeting that they had to cancel it due to fire regulations. The rescheduled meeting, which took place inside a church that could seat over 1500 had standing-room only crowds. That’s how much the neighbourhood cares about this.
There are two main beefs, as far as I can see, the big one being the complete closure of three level crossings in the middle of the neighbourhood. If you look at how the neighbourhood is structured, this is significant. The residential area exists on the east side of the railway tracks, and Weston Road, the main shopping area for the neighbourhood, is on the west side. Cut these connections, and the only means for residents to access their stores is either through the extreme north of the neighbourhood, or Lawrence Avenue. The result would be a neighbourhood divided, and that’s a lot to ask a neighbourhood to swallow. Depressing the tracks to allow pedestrian or full overpasses is complicated, since the line passes over Lawrence Avenue on a bridge. Since the initial revolt by Weston residents, one or more of those level crossings have been retained.
The neighbourhood is also upset that they see Blue 22 significantly increasing rail traffic through their neighbourhood (a service with 15 minute headways would send a high speed train through the neighbourhood every 7-8 minutes) with no benefit to the residents. As far as I know, the neighbourhood would have far less objection if those 15 minute frequencies in each direction came with actual train service either to the Airport or Downtown, at something far more affordable than the $20 fare that has been suggested for Blue 22.
But the big question, ultimately, is trust. Weston as a community has been suffering hard times for close to half a century — almost since the moment they were amalgamated into the Town of York. They’ve lost industry, and they’ve had more than their fair share of public housing placed in their neighbourhood. They’re economically depressed, and they believe that the Town of York, the Metro government and now Toronto City Council is ignoring the area’s needs. This is why I’d advise against telling Weston residents to “suck it up.” They’ve been sucking it up for a half century, and telling them to suck it up again confirms in their minds that the downtown council is arrogantly ignoring their needs.
Looking at the project as a whole, I see little benefit in Blue 22. Initially, all we’re going to get are a series of reconditioned RDCs operating at 15 minute intervals, shuttling at most between the Airport, Dundas West station and Union, with a $20 fare that would make the service useful to a limited number of business passengers. The project makes little sense to me, and should be abandoned. On the other hand, GO Trains operating with GO fares along the Weston sub, making all stops between Union and the Airport, would be of benefit not just to airport passengers but to residents and workers in the northwestern area of town. If Metrolinx wants to create something useful for the area and for commuters through the area, frequent GO service is the way to go, in my opinion.
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The Blue 22 project is a huge waste of money for such little benefit.
On the idea of using GO to run the service, GO transit can use the RDC’s to run the service, and hell, make a and make a westbound connection. That way, you might be able to run an airport service from Georgetown to Union, with a stop at the airport.
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You won’t be able to go from Georgetown/Brampton to Union via the airport. It can probably be arranged to have Brampton trains reach the airport, which is more a question of politics than anything else. Trains would terminate at the airport regardless of what direction the train comes from. I had a fair bit of discussion about this with John Howe at Metrolinx, and the amount of work done on the connection so far is apparently past the point of no return as far as alignment into the terminal.
There is interesting potential at Pearson, if they do it right, and it’s sure to be complicated feat. However, that said, I think it is possible to make Pearson a Union Station West, but only if Blue 22 is not a part of it. It must be a GO Train service, and should make all stops.
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The question is, why not both Blue 22 and a GO Airport spur line? Something similar to London’s Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect? Heathrow Express runs direct from Paddington Station to Heathrow in about 15 minutes for around $33CAD, whereas Heathrow Connect at five stops in between Paddington Station and Heathrow, takes 25 minutes but costs about $14CAD for the same distance.
Steve: There would be little difference in running time between a GO service and Blue 22. GO would not be making frequent local stops, only a few (say Dundas West, Eglinton, Weston, Etobicoke North).
Or, if neither of those is an option, and we ignore the Eglinton (Crosstown) LRT, is it not possible to extend the Bloor-Danforth line, giving it stops at the East Mall, Bloor Street West, Burnhamthorpe Road, Rathburn Road, Eglinton Avenue West and either T1, T1 and T3, or Pearson Airport subway station (with a possible regional terminal for other transit)? It would provide access to local residents, provide a convenient connection to downtown, as well as other parts of the city, and leave room for possible future expansion in the airport lands, as well as Mississauga and/or Brampton, and all for however much a TTC adult fare would be at the time.
Steve: Subway construction these days isn’t cheap. The distance is over 10km, and this means a project cost of well over $2-billion. That money would be better spent on multiple surface routes like Eglinton, Finch and a Mississauga LRT converging on an airport terminal.
Also, don’t we already have a direct connection to downtown- Pacific Western’s Airport Express?
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First – if Mike Sullivan wants to refer to “the politicians”, he should stop looking to become one. Westoners might want to reflect on an NDP candidate in the last election remaining the principal spokesperson and the perception that criticism of Laura Albanese is political and not merely holding her to account for flipflopping.
I don’t favour the B22 proposal as posited – 1 stop at Bloor, maybe one at Woodbine, separate tickets. My preference is for GO to be ticketing and scheduling authority, operating the train directly or by proxy.
While the airport track is being constructed, do enough work to turn the trains at Malton and use shuttle buses to get people to the terminals. This wouldn’t be wasted effort because the shuttle would provide a basis for convenient transfer of 905/519ers on GO trains coming in from an expansion to Guelph or Kitchener if VIA additionally stopped at Malton (3km away) rather than 20km from the airport in Brampton as now.
GO Georgetown (Airport) would be using the current stops with the addition of one at Eglinton and one in Parkdale to permit the airport service to be accessible throughout the GTA at reasonable cost and with integrated ticketing and meeting the reasonable request of Westoners to be compensated for the additional disruption. Union, Parkdale (King?), Bloor (BD), Eglinton (LRT), Weston (Lawrence), Etobicoke North (Kipling), Malton+shuttle or Pearson. Either way, less than 10 stops.
I’m agnostic on the specifics of the technology (electric, diesel, push-pull or multiple unit) as long as it utilises the existing heavy rail ROW so that we’re not carving up the ROW and necessitating flyovers/unders to separate from existing service.
Bilevel EMU or electric pushpull would be interesting from a commonality perspective if the same train type was designed to replace the Lakeshore trains. Ideally it would integrate into the existing Georgetown service and permit trains west of the airport to perhaps drop a stop or two. However, would deeming electrification a prerequisite force an even greater delay?
I note that depressing the track through Weston would have to cater for permitting the retention of existing CN/VIA/GO diesel traffic so we’d be talking about short tunnels/cut and deck rather than a full burying of the ROW.
Watching the programme again on DVR, I found implication of the studio discussion of Eglinton LRT and Kipling 192, including yours Steve, as somehow being sufficient alternatives to a direct service along the corridor to be unsatisfactory. Those services will help, absolutely, and should be built, but they will serve different catchments in Etobicoke and north Toronto – and Finch too if that extension is built as it should be and we could end up with the “Union Station West” mentioned above.
The notion however that someone from downtown other than a transit fan with anything beyond carry-on baggage, fairly fit and a lot of time on their hands would change and then change again at Kipling is difficult to credit. From Union to St George (six stops) to Kipling (15 stops) to Terminal 1 (up to five stops) – let’s say 25 stops and a 29km journey length. The unbuilt Eglinton LRT will have who knows how many stops between Keele and the airport (for those who would like to put forward a number – ride the 510) and even then it’s 10 stops before you get on the LRT. How many stops is too many before we stop trying to make local services do inter-regional work?
Comparing these services to a door to door taxi – which is the most frequently stated competition on the show, is obviously unreasonable. The aim should be first to end the need for downtown shuttle buses – this is the competition, with GO buses running outside the times of the rail service. It’s not clear to me why this isn’t the case already – aren’t the hotel shuttles just blue 22 by another name? Shouldn’t Metrolinx be including them in their empire building?
Incidentally, converting the Georgetown line from conventional service to include a frequent service component might be quite helpful in looking at the costs and technicalities in the conversion of the Richmond Hill line to include a subway reliever frequent service component.
On the other hand, accentuating diesel technology as smelly and noisy isn’t going to help get GO expanded to places like Pickering North and Bolton where the first phase will almost certainly be diesel. It’s all very well for Mike Sullivan and Suri Weinberg-Linsky to talk about electric airport services elsewhere but many of those, like the proposed Heathrow Airtrack to Terminal 5, are short links to join lines that are already electric (Reading-Waterloo, 750v DC) and thus the marginal cost of electrification is lower.
The swipe at Joe Pantalone was also a bit unfair since the Strachan crossing carries trains from Milton, Georgetown and Bradford so it is going to be busy irrespective of an air-rail link – and I’m no apologist for the deputy mayor. That’s not to say I oppose burying in Weston either – but saying “I want what they got” doesn’t work for subway building or any other infrastructure. It has to make sense on the merits.
The final irony of the discussion was the mentions of the island airport – which 100 metres of bridge. about 200 metres of track and overhead and some new junctions would permit possible streetcar routes to Bloor-Danforth and/or Union and/or GO Exhibition. Not in this mayor’s tenure, obviously.
Steve: For clarity, I don’t being able to get to the airport from Union, just the way it is proposed to do it and the fact that it’s being touted as the only potential new route into the airport. We have to think of the airport as a hub, and the services to it as an integral part of the public, regular fare network.
That said, if someone with a significant amount of luggage is originating well away from Union, they would be better off getting to the airport on the subway to Kipling, on the new Eglinton line or on the Finch line. Why haul all your stuff all the way downtown just to turn around and come back out to the airport?
As for lightly loaded businessmen, we keep being told that this is the market for a premium fare service. They’re the same folks that Porter is going after from the Island Airport.
As for swipes at that airport, I think that came from Dale Goldhawk, not any of the panelists. If Miller really wanted to shut that place down, he would take the same approach as the Mayor of Chicago, but that would ruffle too many feathers among those from whom the city hopes to get funding. I think that he and many others are just hope that Porter Air and the Port Authority itself will just run out of money someday.
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Mark: If we are talking about downtown shuttle buses, such as hotel shuttles and Pacific Western’s Airport Express, the main reasons I could think of why Metrolinx isn’t talking to them is:
*They are privately owned
*They present competition for the TTC/GO Transit
*To contract them out, in the way YRT contracts the TTC to provide some services north of Steeles Avenue, would probably cost more money to operate than the fare box revenue could cover.
As for GO Transit, why not extend the LINK train past Viscount to Malton GO Station? Would that not be a viable option? You have the (somewhat) direct connection to downtown, as well as Brampton. You retain most of the existing infrastructure, and it would cost less than Blue 22 would. Also, it would be possible to add a VIA Rail connection there for people from further afield.
I say this for GO Transit because unless they put the train underground, I don’t see a way for the train to run straight to Pearson proper (T1, T3). The LRT options could get to T1 ground level (Pearson’s current transit hub) with some work. The GO Train would require a dedicated underground station if it where to run into Pearson itself. Having an above ground station at Pearson itself is near impossible. Look at a satellite picture of Pearson and its surroundings- except for some lawns here and there, the land is all used up.
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Actually, the plan is for the track to be elevated. A lot of the preliminary work including ground work preparation for the future foundations of this track, which I’ve heard from Metrolinx is 8 stories high at its peak, has already been done.
LINK is impossible to extend because of the technological setup it uses is severely – if not cripplingly – limited, both in capacity and route length (which are directly related in LINK’s setup, usually this is more of a fleet issue, but not in LINK’s case).
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As Karl said, extending the Link rollercoaster really means converting it to self-propelled from cable car. A different option might be an LRT from Queen St. down Airport Road to meet the TTC LRT.
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Grzegorz – GTAA has left provision for a platform at Terminal 1, however the proposed/possible route from Woodbine junction past the GTAA carpark into the station is pretty twisty.
Steve: FYI the GTTA has also protected a route from the south by which an Eglinton line could reach Terminal 1.
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“The notion however that someone from downtown other than a transit fan with anything beyond carry-on baggage, fairly fit and a lot of time on their hands would change and then change again at Kipling is difficult to credit. From Union to St George (six stops) to Kipling (15 stops) to Terminal 1 (up to five stops) – let’s say 25 stops and a 29km journey length. ”
EXACTLY! I’m glad someone get’s it. The Metronaut site refers to a study which shows that transfers are a huge disincentive to transit use. Branching an airport link onto existing service isn’t much better than the current herky-jerky two subways and a bus option.
No to Blue22 but YES to a direct link (with local stops).
Steve: A lot of the discussion in this thread turns on the question of how many times people have to transfer enroute to the airport. For those who are downtown, most are not in walking distance of Union Station and they will have to make a subway-to-link transfer. For those who are not adjacent to a subway station, they will have to make two transfers.
If you’re staying at the Royal York, Union is across the street through a tunnel that will eventually be fully accessible. If you’re at the Sheraton, you need to ride down from Osgoode to Union. If you’re at the Primrose (Jarvis & Carlton), you are at the mercy of the Carlton car. If you’re at the Gladstone, you’re better off taking the Dufferin bus up to the Bloor subway.
Someone going to the airport via Kipling will make a single transfer there (actually a much more convenient transfer than at Union). This would be my preferred route as I live in walking distance of Broadview Station. As with Union, anyone who didn’t live close enough to walk to the subway (say, somewhere north of me in East York) would have to take a bus to the subway.
Similar trip structures can be mapped out no matter how many “direct” lines we build to the airport because inevitably, most riders won’t originate right at a station. However, the more we have, the more people are actually in striking distance. It’s the diversity of regular fare options that make the airport truly in reach of many travellers, not a single, premium fare service remote from much of the city’s population.
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The Globe and Mail printed a rather misinformed and antagonistic editorial today pushing for Blue 22. In the process, it got many of its facts wrong about what an EA is supposed to cover and about the concerns of Weston residents.
It is sad when we still have to fight misinformation on this project.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090118.weEnviron19/BNStory/specialComment/home/
Steve: What is even more annoying is to see the Globe take a pot shot at a project “co-opted by activists”. This is the standard way that government agencies portray those who criticise their plans — paint them as self-interested meddlers who don’t see the greater good.
The Globe should be ashamed. This sort of trash belongs in the Sun or the Post.
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I have been reading the comments on Blue 22 versus GO service to the airport and haver a few comments:
1 Does any one remember riding the RDC’s? I used to take them twice a weekend and they do not load or unload rapidly even if you use the doors at both ends and if you are “schlepping” the usual baggage on and of the most air plane travellers use then it is not going to be a pretty sight. You might be able to make the run in 22 minutes but they won’t make the turn around time.
2 Most people that I have encountered on rail services to airports around the world are not passengers but employees of the airport. This service is totally useless to them.
3 The service should be electrified to get faster acceleration than is possible from locomotive hauled trains. It is a simple law of Physics that the maximum tractive effort from steel wheels on steel rails is about 25% of weight on drivers. For self propelled cars this is 2.5 m/s/s which is too fast for human comfort but it means that you can maintain the maximum comfortable acceleration rate, about 1 m/s/s, to a much higher velocity. The existing locomotive hauled trains do not accelerate anywhere near this rate. For long distance high speed passenger service with few stops locomotive hauled trains make more economic sense but it doesn’t work for frequent stops of commuter service.
4 Weston needs a grade separation for frequent service if the community is not to be destroyed. There are too many streets too close together for it to be safe and workable. It is not a case of the locals be selfish but being wary of the problems created to service the comfort and needs of outsiders.
5 This line is not the answer to all the transportation needs of the GTAA but a starting point. LRT lines would also be needed as well as a bus transfer facility.
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I’ve rode both remaining RDC services in Canada – the entire Malahat on Vancouver Island and a small portion of the Lake Superior run from Sudbury (only as far as Cartier, where you can take the Northland bus back). There was a lot to admire about the RDCs when they were king of the branch lines and remote rails (the various configurations, the ability to run alone or in trains up to 5 or 6 like they had on the Kitchener runs), but they certainly are not suited to local runs.
I sent a rather terse letter to the editor of the Slop and Pail, but I doubt they’ve considered it as I never got a call back (I usually do when I write to the Star).
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Apparently, Steve, it’s not Blue22 you’re against but the whole idea of a Union-Pearson direct link to join the two busiest transportation hubs in the entire country, regardless of whether it’s heavy or light rail, electric or diesel, express or local, premium or regular fare.
Steve: Some people go so far out of their way to misrepresent what I write it’s quite amazing that I even let their comments through. There is nothing wrong with a link from Union to Pearson. It should stop at a few places along the way like the Bloor Subway (already incorporated in the plan, although it wasn’t there originally) and at the proposed Eglinton line (which will probably still be an underground LRT at the point where the rail corridor crosses). There are thousands of people who don’t want to start out (or have to travel to) Union Station to get to the airport.
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Hmm, wonder if John Barber has stumbled upon the Tory alternative to the Blue 22?
“…it is impossible to imagine any “infrastructure” being more retrograde in every sense than the Pickering airport. Not a single elected official east of Yonge Street wants it.
“But that hardly rules it out. On the contrary, this is the same terrain the same local MP has already blessed with an equally unnecessary new rail service. The proposed Flaherty flier to Peterborough, the plum Mr. Flaherty pulled out of his last fiscal pie, will run straight through the middle of the 7,530 hectares expropriated almost 40 years ago for the purpose of building a second airport in Toronto – and still waiting, all but empty.”
:p
Steve: And how long will it take someone to figure out that the most direct route from Pearson to Pickering does NOT go through Union Station? Taking this whole thing seriously, just for argument’s sake, it would be far better to connect a crosstown line at Summerhill. However, the way that West Toronto Junction is being rebuilt, it is optimized for service that travels north-south, not service that turns onto the CPR North Toronto Subdivision.
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Let’s crank this one up again, looks like it’s a go in some form or other as of this afternoon’s announcement.
Question – is the Pacific Western airport service not contracted by the Feds or GTAA? I recall that Pacific Western won the contract from Gray Coach around the time that Gray Caoch was sold off to Stagecoach. Has this changed?
Steve: As far as I know, it’s an independently operated service. They may even have to pay the GTAA for the right to pick up passengers as they are a private company, unlike the TTC. If anyone out there knows the details, please add to this thread.
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Hi Steve:-
You said:-
“By the way, the CTA link to O’Hare is a LOCAL train that stops at many, many stations on its way into the loop. It is not by any stretch of the imagination an express service to the airport.”
Cleveland too!
Dennis
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Steve: “And how long will it take someone to figure out that the most direct route from Pearson to Pickering does NOT go through Union Station? Taking this whole thing seriously, just for argument’s sake, it would be far better to connect a crosstown line at Summerhill. However, the way that West Toronto Junction is being rebuilt, it is optimized for service that travels north-south, not service that turns onto the CPR North Toronto Subdivision.”
You’ve got that one wrong, though, the most direct way might be even to backtrack via Malton and go across the top of the city. We build a few more tracks on the York Sub, with a station at Yonge where it will connect with the Yonge Subway extension. We could call it the Peter Kent Express.
Steve: Alas the pre-construction work already done for the airport access points east, not west, and a direct link to the York sub would be very difficult.
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“Steve: Some people go so far out of their way to misrepresent what I write it’s quite amazing that I even let their comments through. There is nothing wrong with a link from Union to Pearson.”
It seems then that we agree. My apologies for mistaking your dogged repetition that not all airport traffic originates downtown (among other criticisms) as opposition.
Btw, as LRT with local stops, plenty of non-airport riders could use the line to get to work in the financial district, school at U of T and lots of other places. It’s not only about airport service. It should also be about strengthening the network.
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LRT or Subway would be nice but the rules about buffer space between them and the railway foul that up. Why actual shared trackage of passenger rail and tube trains is allowed on some routes in London, England but not here is beyond me. The real question is why this needs to be a separate service from GO in the first place. Could it be that operation of the Blue22 service or a local transit route is not actually profitable, even remotely? Well, unless of course the public sector pays for all the infrastucture upgrades and maintenance while the private operator uses antique trains and only pays for trackage rights.
Wouldn’t everything be simpler if GO just ran all service in this corridor? Why on earth would anyone pay the Blue22 fare when they could take a GO train almost all the way for a fraction of the cost once all-day frequent service is up and running? Even adding a cab fare from the Malton GO Station into the terminal would probably add up to less. Any well-off business person will continue to order a direct limo. Who do they expect to use this service as it is proposed?
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Miroslav’s comment shows that he is not from the Weston community. Since the idea was first brought to the community’s attention the Weston community has been against it. To have this link go through streets need to be closed which will not only isolate the residents of those streets but also make it difficult for those residents and residents from outside the area of those streets to access stores, schools, churches, and other services offered. The idea of a pedestrian bridge is not a solution either because as we all know the city is not known for cleaning streets, sidewalks or pedestrian areas consistently when it snows which will be not only dangerous but isolating for the residents of the Weston Community. If this air rail link was being set up in your back yard affecting your life I think a lot of people would change their ways on thinking about this issue.
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