The City and TTC will be holding two EA meetings for the Sheppard LRT line on Tuesday and Thursday, April 15 and 17, 2008.
These will also include discussions of the proposed extension of the Scarborough RT.
The FAQ linked from the EA notice page includes a variety of intriguing items giving an idea of how the project team views what they will implement. Apropos of discussions in other threads here about stop spacing and vehicle speed, we learn that
there is normally a much greater distance between stops, relative to a typical bus route.
It should be interesting to see how the TTC and City reconcile this statement with the actual layout of streets and stops on the existing bus route, not to mention the Official Plan goals for Avenues with medium density development along transit lines rather than concentrated at major intersections.
Update: The presentation materials from the meeting are now available online.
Steve Munro 
Steve, when presentation materials are available, could you create a new post to inform of that fact? Updates to old posts don’t necessarily show up in feedreaders as new items and so can be missed.
Steve: It’s a question of my remembering to change the timestamp on the item so that it is “new” for feed readers.
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I plan on attending the SRT extension meeting next Tuesday.
I have a few questions that I plan on asking, pending on others asking the questions on my mind.
Steve, I’m posting this because I want to know your thoughts on what you currently know of the extension plans and upgrades, as well as what the preferred options the TTC would most likely do with it if we were to speculate.
I am curious about the alignment as there are some ROWs that were left over after the extension past McCowan was scrapped years ago. Now, would there be any chance that parts of the extension could be buried? I don’t see much of an alternative because there are now buildings in the old reserved ROW where the RT was to continue on.
Also, do you know if there is a proposed station for the Centennial College – Progress campus? It wouldn’t make much sense NOT to put one there, despite a station location on Markham road nearby.
As well, would the TTC revisit the issue of fully utilizing the SELTRAC moving block train control? I’m curious as to what plans they have in order to decrease train headways and increase efficiency.
Steve: The planned extension of the RT (taken from the draft EA of May 1992) had possible stations at Bellamy (east of McCowan Yard), Markham & Progress, Centennial, Milner and Sheppard. Of these, Bellamy was deemed probably not necessary at startup, but provision for the station should be protected. Centennial station was rejected due to low potential ridership and its nearness to Markham Station.
The existing signal system is about to be replaced. Commissioning tests were done late in 2007, and then work stopped due to the bad winter. The new system is expected to come online in a few months.
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I always found it odd that there would be no connection to STC. I assume the RT extension will address that issue?
Steve: I presume that you mean “no connection from the Sheppard line to STC”. This would be provided by the RT which will cross the LRT line probably at Markham Road. Keeping an east-west line on Sheppard itself is important, and the “black hole effect” of shopping malls on transit route structures is avoided this way.
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I always was and I am still for a sheppard SUBWAY….did we not learn from Kennedy Station?
* SRT
* Buses
* Main Concourse where people from the street go to enter the system
* Subway
Will they do a seperate LRT bay from Don Mills bus bay or will it be an ‘intergrated’ like let’s say Bathurst station?
If Sheppard would remain a subway…it could be extended to Downsview, Weston Road and even Pearson, and on the east side to Pickering Town Centre (Twyn Rivers drive alignment or Kingston Road).
I live right by Sheppard and all the mess this will occur when they make it a ROW for the SLRT (512 St. Clair <— remember that project?).
Steve: Kennedy is a mess for transfers and this will be modified as part of the SRT rebuild so that you don’t have to climb from the bowels of the earth to the heavens when escalators are not working to make the connection.
At Don Mills, we don’t know what designs they have come up with yet, although I can think of a few (this has been debated here at great length before and I will not get into another round until there is something specific from the TTC that we can kick around). I happen to prefer as easy a connection as possible, preferably into the east end of the mezzanine level (one up from the subway), but don’t know whether this is feasible given underground considerations. There are also gradient issues for the DVP crossing depending on whether the line goes over or under.
Building the whole line as a subway is simply not on due to cost. The last estimate I saw for getting just from Don Mills to STC was about $1.5-billion.
In comparison with St. Clair, the two streets are completely different for starters. One important part of the Transit City planning will be a common set of urban design standards and these will, I hope, be a huge improvement over St. Clair. We shall see.
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I still think not having a direct link from North York to Scarborough Centre is a mistake. No one is going to want to travel all the way to Markham Rd and then double-back on the SRT to STC, and vice-versa. If there’s no direct link built, I sure hope they at least keep the 190 in operation, although I’m not sure how that would work in terms of the ROW.
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Sheppard subway extension? Miroslav, the fact of the matter is that you need cost effective means of moving the right amount of people. 32,000 an hour on Sheppard will not happen for at least a hundred years. The cost recovery ratio on the Sheppard Subway is very low. (I am not sure what the ratio is, but compared to the Yonge line it’s pitiful. What kind of comparison is that?) BRT advocates say setting buses is cheaper then LRT, but is never always the case. The operating budget is higher because buses are more expensive to run day to day. LRT sometimes is more expensive then BRT to build, but the diffrence is more then made up with capacity, and cheap operating cost.
I do agree the SRT refurbishment with this bottom barrel, over priced technology that the SRT is, is a joke. Look at the company that makes this technology, Bombardier. Dating back to Hawker Siddley, Bombardier has made our streetcars, subway cars, and go trains. Why can’t Bombardier just be happy about the new LRVs and Subway car orders? They did a good job with the subways and go trains, not so much with those overkill CLRV and ALRVs, but still filled our needs. This kind of lobbying for something that is overpriced, the city should ignore the lobby and shut down the SRT for the 36 months. (36 months seems like too much) Then build proper LRT, that we could proud of.
Bottom line LRT is cheap, you can move lots of people, it’s very flexible, and the it keeps the costs down. Miroslav, this is why subways is not the answer. The S.O.S. (Save our St. clair) messed up the ROW themselves with short sighted lobbying.
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Hopefully this won’t turn into another spadina, but look at this really makes me lose some hope:
(Q13) Can emergency vehicles use the dedicated right of way for the LRT?
Yes.
I don’t understand why even the Suburbs the City seems to be against the open track bed concept. It would be the better option this is going to be Light Rapid Transit.
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Matthew Kemp wrote:
“The cost recovery ratio on the Sheppard Subway is very low. (I am not sure what the ratio is, but compared to the Yonge line it’s pitiful.”
Kevin’s comment:
Have you been on the Yonge line recently? People packed into cars in a way that makes sardine cans look roomy may lead to a “good” cost recovery ratio. But its bad for public transit. And there is zero room to add more riders.
I was on the Sheppard Subway recently during the PM peak. The amount of riders was about equal to the amount of seats. There were a few people standing, and there were a few empty seats.
In my opinion, this is the “Goldilocks zone.” Its just right. If a subway cannot sell all of its seats during peak hours, then it is too much transit infrastructure. If it is over crowded like the Yonge line, then that is definitely too little transit intrastructure.
Sheppard is just right.
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I agree with miroslav. The Sheppard LRT should connect Terminate at don mills in the east, and Downsview in the west, It just makes things easier for those trying to get to york univeristy from points east of yonge. Besides the subway is already in place from don mills to yonge, would it not make sense to connect the subway lines i.e. yonge to university spadina only and just start the Sheppard LRT from Downsview station instead?
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“Hopefully this won’t turn into another spadina, but look at this really makes me lose some hope:”
What is wrong with Spadina? The line is well-patronized, and is pretty quick, considering the number of stops. Also the community wanted the extra stops.
I would say Spadina turned out pretty well.
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I think the best option for the cross platform transfer would be to convert one of the Platforms at Don Mills station (The subway frequencies are so low it can run with one platform), and have a cross-platform interchange.
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In response to Miroslav Glavic’s suggestion of extending the Sheppard subway, Steve wrote, “The last estimate I saw for getting just from Don Mills to STC was about $1.5-billion.”
According to a TTC report from a meeting on April 9, 2003, the estimate for that construction would be $1.75 billion. Assuming 2.5% annual inflation, that would be $2 billion in today’s dollars, and this does not include the cost of any subway cars.
Steve: What’s another half a billion between friends?
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What is the city going to do about the Scarbrough RT cars? My understanding is that the replacement vehicles for the RT cannot operate on the existing track. And the older vehicles are now reaching the end of there lifespan.
Are they simply going to be rebuilding these cars? If so that seems quite short sighted as these trains will eventually the city cannot continue to rebuild them. Or is the city looking to purchase a specially modified car for the RT? Then the words cost keep going through my head.
And what about running a High-Floor (using the existing platforms for level boarding) LRT multi car consist for the Scarbrough LRT. Is that an option for the Scarbrough RT? It seems to be possible but the concerns about the sharp turns do come up.
Steve: The TTC will be rebuilding the connection at Kennedy (a) to eliminate the curve and (b) at a lower level. They claim that the Mark II cars will fit, just, through the existing Ellesmere tunnel.
As for conversion to LRT, the TTC is dead set against it and always quotes studies that conversion is more expensive and a lengthier project than the mods needed to handle new cars. The cost comparison does not include the higher cost of building the extension as ICTS, but the concept of fair, unbiased technology comparisons for the Scarborough RT doesn’t exist in Toronto.
The line would be an ideal addition to the Transit City LRT network, but that wouldn’t look good for those who claim that our pet high technology is the only possible answer to transit problems.
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Well, nice to see that they added an FAQ.
I think they’d be better off shutting down the subway for a bit and converting it to LRT before or concurrent with building the LRT proper. That way you can avoid a transfer city-like scenario from the start. If they add infill stations at Willowdale and possibly Shaughnessy, they’d be able to safely eliminate Sheppard East bus service as well, thus saving money on duplicate service in the long run. I’m not talking about big, artsy stations like the others on the line. Just relatively simple ones that do their job, perhaps done in the same style as Queen’s Quay. At that point, all stations will be under a kilometre from one another.
I can’t say I’m sure about the fact that it will run in a centre ROW. Looking at Google Maps, it seems to me that a side-ROW would make more sense for most of the route. Access would be easier for pedestrians, plus costs would be reduced since special platforms would probably not be required (other than perhaps a small rise to allow level boarding with the vehicles). I’m not 100% sure on this, since I’m not claiming to be an expert on ROWs, but it’s just my view on the situation.
I notice that they mention the Scarborough-Malvern LRT might end up on Neilson. Now, I’m of the opinion that this LRT should just be reserved bus lanes, but that’s neither here nor there. If they’re intent on building this line, I think it would make sense to use the existing planned alignment to Sheppard, then run it west on Sheppard (a sort of quasi-interlining I guess) to Neilson, and then run it from there north to Finch. There’s even room for an extension to Steeles if required later, though I don’t think densities in that area are quite up to par for an LRT extension yet (hell, it can barely support bus service). This would allow it to hit Malvern Town Centre (including any possible RT extension there) and the high-density cluster at McLevin. Morningside north of Sheppard can easily be served by a stub-Morningside bus.
Anyway, those are just a few thoughts based on what I’ve read in that FAQ.
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Although I know Steve that you hate the discussion about where the Sheppard Line connects at Don Mills, converting a second platform works pretty well. A quick walk across the platform would be a very efficient transfer. The Sheppard line is already limited to 1 platform at terminals thanks to the design of the Sheppard-Yonge interchange. The crossing of the 404 will need to be done underground, and the LRT can surface perhaps just past Yorkdale (Blvd.)
That is considering that Don Mills will be able to be adapted to this scheme. The tracks will have to be raised considerably, how to get the LRVs from the platform (level 4, and street is at 1) up 3 stories, and the *tiny* issue of the ceiling at Don Mills and if it has enough room for the added height of the raised vehicles + the overhead.
There have been no provisions for a station to be inserted at aprox. Shaughnessy. If you tour the surface and underground of Sheppard Ave., you see the two emergency exits sit roughly between Shaughnessy. Past the west exit is a curve, and the east exit is located inside the Don Mills crossovers. If there wasn’t enough room before considering that curve and leadup to the crossovers, the section between isn’t even flat, so it is impossible for trains to stop at a platform here.
Steve: Basically there are two possibilities for an underground connection at Don Mills. One is at subway level with some sort of shared platform arrangement as described earlier in this thread. Another is to come in at mezzanine level. Either way, there remains a question of how to make a future connection to the Don Mills LRT line.
Obviously, the line would surface somewhere east of Consumers Road given gradient considerations for the path under the DVP and then back up to the surface.
Adding stops to the existing subway is not, as you say, as easy as it looks due to gradient and tunnel depth problems at possible locations. Unless provision is made from day one in the design, it’s rare that we would find a ready-made location.
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People are so quick to declare the shut down of the Sheppard line. Ironically these people are most often those whom have either never ridden the line as a dependence or have seen it operating during peak periods. There are people who would be adversely effected if that line were shut down at this point. There is now also development occurring due to the line being in proximity of these building projects. Ridership on Sheppard is going UP.
Expansion into the east makes little sense. However expanding it to its original terminus at the University-Spidina line would make a HUGE amount of sense. It would provide an alternative to the over-crowded Yonge line and encourage more people to use the exsiting Sheppard infrastructure. Also increasing use of the proposed Spadina expansion to the north.
No doubt an expansion of the Sheppard line east is going to happen as it doesn’t make any sense not to do so. I would say the ever increasing use of the Yonge line will force this expansion as a means of an alternative route.
Like it or not were stuck with the RT. Let’s just hope improvements made make it a better line then the “semi automatic” non-operational in the snow, cramped government pet project we have now.
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Ok… The First thing the TTC needs to do is Fixx that SRT and turn it into a LRT or somthing and extend it to the end of scarbrough .. They need to establish a scarbrough line that is one that everyone would use.. (from Kennedy to morningside and perhapps further if it can happen.. but at least to morningside and sheppard.
I love that we are all talking about this, but What are the odds that these things will actually happen in the next 5 years. I know EA stuff takes so long, But come on. I’m sure they can do an EA in 1 year MAX.. Look at other countries where they build lines in 5 years. With a Labour Union and chair committee still talking in contract talks and with a system raising fairs every 3 years.. Unless the TTC becomes private, or the city, provincal and federal government invests into this serive This plan and other LRT plans will not happen in the next 5 or so years.
The TTC has to notice that this CITY can’t afford this service anymore and they need to look at many more options.
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Steve: Too good to pass up: Last poster Samuel is writing about the importance of building a good line to the end of “Scarbrough” and then says we have a system raising “fairs” every 3 years. Perhaps they could organize a “Scarbrough fair”. One could ask the question (set to music) “Are you paying the Scarborough fare?”
Steve: Eagle eyed readers will note that I tend not to fix spelling and grammar in some comments. They’re funnier in the original.
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The mention of the SRT’s snow problems up there just reminded me of another thought, semi-related to this posting (what with the RT extension and all). Why has the TTC never thought of just putting a bloody roof over the tracks? How expensive can it possibly be to just stick a concrete slab of some sort up there along the length of the line? It would make the RT way more reliable since the amount of snow on the tracks would be reduced by a significant amount. I think this should at least be considered given how they’re obsessed with retaining the technology. Otherwise we’ll be seeing a lot of “A section of Scarborough RT service is shut down from Kennedy to Sheppard East Stations. Shuttle buses are in service.” announcements. This is assuming that the new cars aren’t somehow radically better at handling snow.
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I’d suggest to take the left turn policy on Sheppard a step further: allow left turns from Sheppard at major intersections only. For example, allow left turns to Vic Park, Warden, Birchmount etc, but not Pharmacy or Arrow Rd. That would simplify the signal phases, let the LRVs through the intersections faster, and save space (no left-turn lanes).
Motorists would sometimes have to U-turn at the next major intersection and go back. This is not a big deal for a car.
Another suggestion is to disallow right turns from Sheppard on red light, at all intersections with LRT stops. That would help passengers to cross the traffic lanes.
Regarding the stop spacing: stops on Bloor subway are located every 600 – 800 m from Jane to Main, and that line operates with no supporting local bus. Perhaps a similar spacing can be adopted for the Sheppard LRT, with extra stops at special places like the seniors residence.
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Leo Gonzalez wrote: “… not having a direct link from North York to Scarborough Centre is a mistake”.
A branch off Sheppard LRT to STC becks to be built, it would be short and not that expensive. Before it is built, they should keep the 190 express. That route runs in mixed traffic now, can keep doing so alongside the LRT line.
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I agree that this time around we have to give up and realize that the Scarbrough RT will not be converted into an LRT line.
I can’t help but wonder if LRT takes off in Toronto the way it has in Calgary, Edmonton and Minneapolis, could the pressure for the city to upgrade this line into an LRT simply be too great for the city to ignore it. I know there are detractors to LRT in all of those cities, but generally speaking most people prefer the system over a subway.
Imagine if Scarbrough Area Councillors were pushing for LRT the way they were pushing for a Subway?
My last question would be back to the whole idea that emergency vehicles will be allowed to use the LRT Rows. Could that harm the rapid transit nature of the LRT? I can’t help but wonder if an emergency vehicle was zipping down the tracks and an LRT was chasing it, and if it has to stop to make a turn of the ROW it ends up delaying the line.
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Steve mentioned, “They claim that the Mark II cars will fit, just, through the existing Ellesmere tunnel.”
The question is, have they done a Duncan’s Dragon (http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/coupler/0308/mar_history.html) run on the RT line yet?
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Aman says: I can’t help but wonder if LRT takes off in Toronto the way it has in Calgary, Edmonton and Minneapolis, could the pressure for the city to upgrade this line into an LRT simply be too great for the city to ignore it.
I’ve never been to Minneapolis, but the lines in Edmonton and Calgary are speedy and separated from traffic, with gate arms to stop traffic on crossing streets (though in Calgary there is a very short downtown section on the street). These systems are much more like mini-subways than anything the TTC is proposing, and they shouldn’t be grouped together.
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Both sides of the issue of whether Shepperd east should have LRT or a subway extension make good points. The issue is a little on the moot side at this point, though. No one understands the bloodcurdling expense of subway construction more than I do but to be honest it might not hurt to have the subway-LRT transfer at least somewhat further east. Even given the 0% chance of the Shepperd subway ever getting an extension I think the Shepperd LRT wiil at least help to strengthen the subway line. That’s the least we can hope for.
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The most puzzling part of the Scarborough RT plan is the cost of extension. Of the 1.15 billion slated for SRT, 450 million are for upgrading the existing line, and 700 million are for the 3.5 km extension. This cost is quite impressive, compared to the 555 million tag for the whole 13.6 km of Sheppard East LRT.
I wonder if the following is a better option:
Do upgrade the existing SRT to run Mk II cars, if Scarborough Council favours that so much. However, do not extend it.
Instead, use those 700 million to build a new LRT line in the hydro corridor that crosses Scarborough, southwest to northeast. South of Lawrence, the line would have to run on street (perhaps Midland) to connect to Kennedy subway. In the north, the line would run in hydro corridor to Neilson, then north on Neilson to Sheppard, Malvern town center, and Finch. Another branch can turn east at Ellesmere and run to UofT Scarborough.
In addition, there would be a case for the Eglinton – Kingston Rd LRT line, but it would not go up Morningside. Instead, it can turn east at Lawrence and run to Rouge Hill.
Looks like this plan has a number of advantages over the currently adopted plan:
1) Three light rail routes off Kennedy, at a price of two. That means both higher capacity and wider service area.
2) Fast connection from Malvern center to Kennedy subway via the hydro corridor, at lot faster than the one via Kingston Rd.
3) Bonus LRT service to Rouge Hill.
4) The TC plan mentioned a possible future extension of LRT into Durham region. Such extension will be more viable if the route fast tracks from Kennedy subway.
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I find this comment odd… does anyone else?
“When could construction start?
Depending on approvals and funding decisions, construction work could begin in 2012.”
I thought we were expediting projects? Or is that only for “pet” projects like the Spadina York subway extension.
The ridership numbers 9-10k hourly peak, isn’t that in the same ballpark as our beloved King 504?
Steve: The 504 is nowhere near that level — that’s more like the old Bloor Streetcar with two car trains. The AM peak “wave” of frequent service eastbound through parkdale is one car every two minutes, and with luck about half of them are ALRVs (on paper). If they were all CLRVs, that would be 30 cars at about 75/car average or 2,250 per hour. Throw in some ALRVs and this gets up to maybe 2,750.
If we are running new LRVs with a capacity of say 150 per car (average, not crush), then a 2 minute headway gives us 4,500/hour. Two car trains makes this 9,000/hour.
Steve, did the TTC actually give a cost for converting the SRT to LRT technology?
If they did was there any consideration in the analysis for the problems of maintaining different equipment? I know airlines and railways always try to keep differences in their fleets to a minimum.
Steve: The cost comparison was always based only on replacement of the existing RT, not on extending it to Malvern. On that restricted basis, the cost of retrofitting the line for low-platform LRVs and rebuilding the underpass at Ellesmere overwhelms other considerations. However, if you extend the line, then anything built new would be designed for the technology. Construction and fleet costs would be much more competitive for LRT.
There is also the option that at some point the demand on the line would be light enough that it would not justify complete grade separation (for example, an extension north into Markham). For LRT, this would be an ideal median right-of-way implementation. For ICTS, you’re stuck with an elevated and its expensive and intrusive stations.
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Looks like I make a habit of going back to the middle comments.
I see some complaining about the crowding on the Yonge train, and the alleged “goldilocks zone” on the underused Sheppard. Those subways are only like that at peak hours, and in any case, it’s in the nature of city life to be among crowds on public transit. If those tunnels and those stations are going to cost b-b-b-billions of dollars, the trains had better be full. Just hold onto a pole and stay away from the door – you won’t forget, thanks to the voiceover instructions.
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Steve:
Your answer to my second question rather confirms my suspicions. And the capacity numbers for the LRV 2 car trains in the first part makes this all the more intriguing.
Remind me again why we want to keep the Toonerville Trolley? Oh that politics thing again. Why does it creep into transit so often?
Well at least the retrofit isn’t a conversion to subway, oy!
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Aman Hayer Says:
I agree with this statement. Has the TTC not learned that embedding the track in concrete is going to make track replacement in the future a major problem. Are they going to close down Finch LRT while the jack hammer up the existing ROW and then relay it? Would it not be better to build something like the Queensway where you can work on track while maintaining service? It will be interesting to see how they maintain access to car barns when they have a major road closed for a track job or do they plan on a fleet of flatbed trailers to haul cars back and forth. If they want a surface that is driveable why do they not use paving sets that can be removed and replaced while the track is bolted or spiked in place. It might increase initial costs but it would significantly reduce maintenance costs.
I was in Pittsburgh last week and road the Overbrook line. The retaining walls and civil engineering on it is impressive and I bet expensive; but, the on street trackage has rubber inserts and if I remember correctly is bolted to the roadbed below allowing track to be replaced with out the need for a jack hammer.
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I just got back from the town hall meeting concerning the SRT and the Sheppard East LRT.
I have to say I have never been so disappointed with the TTC, our city leaders, and everyone involved with the Transit City project and the SRT expansion.
For one, I could not a clear answer from anyone on how much travel time transit city would save over local bus routes. The presenters were very defensive and you got the feeling they did not want to talk about Transit City and knew they could not answer the questions on how the whole plans sucks.
One of the planners actually walked away when someone asked a question, because he knew the resident was right, and did not know what to say.
Overall I have never been so soured by a transit meeting in Toronto, and I really fear for the future of our system and for Scarborough.
It was basically made clear at the meeting that Transit City is not rapid transit, and it is going to do nothing to improve transit speed.
And judging by the mood of residents, no one is pleased. Like one lady said “just finish the subway”.
With transit plans like this, I can see why one resident said she has never stepped foot on the TTC since she picked up her car at the dealership.
The only saving grace where a couple of officials there who actually are against Transit City but have their hands tied, because the mayor wants it. But at least they admitted these LRT lines make no sense and will not improve transit.
Steve: I too have the feeling that the people entrusted with taking this plan to the public don’t have their hearts in it, and even worse are arguing the merits, such as they are, from completely the wrong point of view. That’s why I am writing my own series of posts, and, bluntly why Transit City was not assembled by the usual suspects. Yes, the Mayor wants it, and the usual suspects are doing everything they can to undermine the proposals.
It’s funny how another Mayor got away with railroading his pet subway projects and nobody said a thing about the huge waste of money and misdirection of effort. The professional planners in this town have a lot to answer for.
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Michael B’s report on the Sheppard LRT meeting just furthers my argument about leaving Sheppard as is until all other TC lines are built. Apart from Miller, Giambrone, and a few others, most people (especially those who live/work in the east end) are simply going to be pissed off that a ‘streetcar’ line with an awkward transfer was built instead the perceived logical choice of extending subway. You’re not going to convince them otherwise unless you can show them, very clearly, what the benefit of an LRT line would bring to the area.
The TTC needs to forget about Sheppard for awhile and do the heavy lifting required to get Eglinton built in full. That would be the best showcase for an LRT line, by far, and should get more people on side in terms of Sheppard and TC in general.
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Wouldn’t it make the most sense, to extend the subway to meadovale, as then it would only require one bus to go to the zoo, which is one of Toronto’s most visited tourist destinations.
Steve: You don’t spend $250-million/km to serve a tourist destination. The demand out at Meadowvale is nowhere near what is needed for a subway.
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Just took a look at the PIC presentation materials for the first time.
Oh my god, we’re in deep trouble. The design clearly shows a) centre poles and b) transit stops after the intersection.
The centre poles will make the alignment useless for buses – as we’ve clearly seen demonstrated on St. Claire.
And the platforms after the lights will mean that the vehicles will have to stop once for the lights, and a second time for the platform – which will result in slower trip times – also as demonstrated on St. Clair and Spadina.
I’ve generally been in favour of Transit City – but if they can’t learn from their mistakes, and will spend $6 billion on a system that won’t do anything to reduce travel times, then I’m starting to wonder if we’d be better off and pull the plug on this entire exercise now, and spend the money where it will make an impact.
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I downloaded the PIC display boards a few days ago and have to say I’m also quite disappointed. I think they really need to go back to the drawing boards on this one, as is it really won’t cut it.
As Nicholas said far side stops being the norm seems really stupid, I know it’s done so they can fit in left turn lanes but surely space can be found for both.
WIth double ended cars centre platforms are also an option, though that would require one direction to be on the far side but it could be better for pedestrians to have both directions stop at the same side of the intersection.
I’m disappointed that there was no mention of signal priority, the trams should not be stopping between stops, and should not be waiting for left turning vehicles.
I’m not a big fan of the Sheppard LRT in the first place and if this is going to be the standard design we’re in big trouble for the rest of them too.
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Steve: I am publishing this comment with some formatting changes to make it easier to read (it arrived as a singled block of text), and will comment on it at the end.
I knew it, Hearing the last two comments from Nicholas and Jai confirms my suspicions. We are Getting ripped off with Spadina and St Clair designs for Transit City. This will not help travel time one bit.
Mayor Miller and Giambrone have failed to realize that people in Etobicoke West and Scarborough want RAPID TRANSIT!!. 9 Billion of Transit city can buy you My Simple Plan.
Finish Sheppard (3 Billion) to Finch West, interlined with YUS and STC to the east.
Build the Eglinton LRT as planned to the airport to the west and the east, have it swing north via the now abandoned RT to STC at grade where elevated, using the old ROW. Swallow the time lost for conversion with a temporary busway on Midland from Kennedy stn to STC via progress til construction is completed. This will cost 2.6 billion. The temporary bus way can be done with 16 inch concrete barriers.
Build Finch west LRT from Finch west Stn to Kipling stn on Bloor Danforth, via Hwy 27/hydro corridor. 850 million it would cost based on the calculations used by TTC standards.
The stop spacing on these LRT lines would be 1 km. Open track bed would be used exclusively except certain areas. It would be a green ROW also, no centre poles.
The finch west and Eglinton lines would cross each other so a new route can be made from Kipling to airport from all this. This would also provide interlining with Mississauga’s future LRT on Dundas and Eglinton so now we can share Carhouse’s and costs on purchases. I would Lobby Hazel to build these lines instead of the busway. So far I am at 6.45 billion.
I would build the Malvern extension of the Eglinton LRT line that has now replaced the RT. This would cost probably 450 Million, again based on TTC calculations.
I would then build the Kingston Road LRT from Vic Park to Cliffside (phase One). This would cost 230 million.
I would then build the downtown relief line from Eglinton/Don Mills via Pape south to Queen then east [I think he means west] to Yonge (phase One) 2 billion.
The Queen streetcar route would be cut in half and it would be providing better service. The new Kingston Rd LRT would also terminate at Pape/Queen to the west from Cliffside.
I may be over 9 billion by a bit but my plan involves LRT and Subway expansion and better connectivity with everything else with the added benefit of creating a crosstown route to our north and middle end of our city with Sheppard, Eglinton, and Finch West . The bus routes would have to be configured better to serve these routes but overall I like my plan better. It would be better served for all our regions within Toronto.
Steve: I know that people like to dump on the Mayor Miller and on Adam Giambrone, but it’s important to recognize that this plan is not simply the product of their offices and a few political hangers-on. There was a lot of input from City Planning and from the TTC.
I agree that we don’t want lines like Spadina and St. Clair, but the stop spacing on Sheppard East is unlikely to be anywhere near as close as either of those lines. As I have already discussed here, stops at roughly 500m intervals would be likely in some places simply because of the street arrangements. In Scarborough, the north-south arterials are on a 1km grid, and there are accesses to neighbourhoods at some intermediate points.
We should not reject stops at such locations if they are likely to generate a good deal of traffic and, indeed, we need to be careful to design for the possibility of future stops in areas where major redevelopment may increase demand.
One major time saving that comes with an LRT operation, provided the traffic signalling doesn’t undo the benefit, is faster loading into low floor cars via all doors.
A Sheppard Subway completion is simply not in the cards given the cost and the low projected demand.
You won’t get any objection from me to running LRT to the Scarborough Town Centre. Frankly, I think that the conversion time could be shortened if the TTC really wanted to make this project a reality, and that talk of an extended shutdown is aimed at making the LRT option unpalatable.
The Finch West line is already planned to swing south and likely will wind up with an airport connection. Whether it needs to go all the way down to Kipling is a separate issue.
Similarly, the TTC already is planning for a joint carhouse with Mississauga and for their operations to share the airport access from Eglinton. The GTAA is very interested in having a transit hub at Terminal 1.
The rest of your plan is not unlike Transit City (and its add-ons such as Kingston Road) except for the downtown relief line. The whole debate about the alignment and technology choice will take some time to sort out. Fixing the Queen line is something we need to do this year, not in a decade when a DRL finally opens.
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The funny thing I find about this whole thing, is that when questioned on how this is not really rapid transit, the planners would say “ohh this Sheppard LRT” is about local travel. They would say this while a board across the room clearly showed almost 60% of riders in Scarborough using the TTC take it to go downtown, and not for a little two block trip along Sheppard.
These people totally do not understand what commuters in Scarborough put up with when taking transit, and I think that is the issue. All these people making up the plans live downtown and do not have to travel from the outskirts of this city to anywhere else on a daily basis.
All I can say is I might as well move to Hamilton. Because I could get to Hamilton faster from downtown Toronto, then I can to Scarborough be it with T.C. or no T.C.
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I distinctly recall Miller or one of his supporters talking about Transit City being akin to building “surface subways” in terms of speed and reliability. Why spend billions, they said, on building conventional subways when we could built LRT lines that would provide comparable rapid transit-type service for a fraction of the cost?
That sounds good, in principle, but after reviewing the Sheppard LRT plans, what we’re getting is nothing close to rapid transit. I can just picture it now: the LRT vehicle approaches Victoria Park just as the lights are turning red. Next phase is north/south left turns, followed by north-south through traffic, followed by east/west left turns, followed by east/west through traffic and LRT. But wait! Then the LRT has to stop again at the far end of the intersection to load/offload. It makes me wonder if, all things considered, the LRT will even be faster than the existing bus service on Sheppard!
Steve: There were big problems with some of the early statements about Transit City that really did overstate its capabilities. TTC Vice Chair Joe Mihevc was one of the culprits in this.
Unless an LRT line has the same sort of exclusive right-of-way and stop spacing as a subway (in which case it is a subway in everything but name), it cannot duplicate the speed. Transit City is intended to provide good, frequent, reliable service on surface routes where demand caused by future growth will outstrip the ability of buses, and the traffic from that growth will snarl the streets.
Demands will never reach subway levels, and those who dream of networks of subway lines are seriously deluded. Moreover, the typical station spacing for subways will do little to serve existing and emerging neighbourhoods as we have discussed here at length.
It’s very important that advocates of LRT not oversell the capabilities of the mode. We have heard enough crap about BRT and ICTS, and don’t need to outdo their advocates by overstating what LRT can do. The big, big advantage is the ability to exist either in subway-like operation such as on Eglinton, or as a quasi-streetcar (also on Eglinton), or as a high-speed surface line (as on a converted SRT).
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I stopped by the open house on Thursday and noted a few things.
There was a diagram, that is not in the PDF of materials, showing possible stops. In the diagram, only the stops at major intersections were in the colour of the “definite” stops, while others (more or less existing bus stops) were in the colour of “under consideration”. I overheard one of the planners telling someone that one of the purposes of the meeting was to get feedback on which of the “under consideration” should be implemented. Was this at the Tuesday meeting?
I did overhear one planner tell a person that there would be transit priority signalling, but the red flag went up in my mind when his statement ended with, “just like on Spadina.”
While the public turn-out was impressive , it is clear from the questions being asked that people need a lot more information on just what LRT can be. I have some reservations about whether the Transit City plan will provide as rapid a service as a partially exclusive ROW can, but if people are not aware of what that is, they will just buy whatever is shovelled in their direction.
I must admit I did feel some sympathy for one of the planners, who was an expert in urban planning but not in transit. One individual hooked onto him with questions that quickly moved from urban topics into transit topics. Even after circling the room again to hear what others were asking about, he was still being asked questions by the same guy.
Steve: I am still amazed at how many of the so-called professionals do not know that the transit priority signals have NEVER been implemented on Spadina even though the line opened nearly 11 years ago. Statements like this make me wonder how such people can plan a system for the real city as opposed to the one that only exists in studies and reports.
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Steve – the Transit City website really underlines that the services will be ‘Rapid Transit’ and that the intent is to provide ‘much faster travel between the major areas of Toronto’:
This is from the report – recomendation #1 :
1. Endorse the Toronto Transit City – Light Rail Plan as the basis and priority for rapid transit expansion in the City of Toronto, noting that the Plan would provide:
– much-faster travel between the major areas of Toronto, offering people a truly travel-time competitive and less-stressful alternative to private cars
– highly-reliable and frequent service in road space reserved for transit customers, eliminating the delays caused by operation in mixed traffic
– fully-accessible design, so that people with all levels of mobility can use the service with confidence and ease
– direct rapid transit links to areas that are currently far removed from rapid transit, including the north, west, and eastern areas of Toronto
Steve: The proposed network will offer faster travel times by virtue of segregation from road traffic, faster loading onto low-floor trains with all doors in use, frequent service, and in some locations complete grade separation. It won’t be as good as a subway network, but we are never going to see a subway network. What we will see is growth in demand that buses cannot handle, and the delta between an overloaded bus network running in mixed traffic and the new LRT network will make the latter quite attractive.
I have said this in several posts and replies, but if I have to say it again because some would prefer to paint an alternative picture, I will.
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