Updated May 14: The display panels from the April 22 open house are available on GO Transit’s website.
Original post from April 15:
Construction is already underway for the grade separation project at the West Toronto diamond, and the residents are mightly upset about the noise from pile driving. This project will continue disrupting the neighbourhood until late this year.
GO Transit has announced a public meeting on April 22, 2009 that will kick off another project in the same area, this time to remove the diamond where the Newmarket Subdivision (Barrie GO line) crosses the CPR North Toronto Subdivision.
(Thanks to Vic Gedris for passing along a copy of the notice.)
Steve Munro 
Assuming the pile driving happens at sensible times (though unfortunate for night shift workers), is there any sensible alternative? How many days would it take?
Steve: GO says this work will continue as they work their way up the line until December!! The alternative is bored piles, but they cost more.
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Has the budget for this project already been approved and if so how does it compare to the other grade separations?
Steve: I have not seen anything about this before, and have no basis for comparison. A lot would depend on prevailing conditions and how wide the new north-south corridor will be. It may not be directly comparable to other projects such as those on the York Subdivision.
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This area really has it out for them. I used to live in this neighbourhood and wouldn’t be able to stand the constant pinging of pile drivers – especially if there’s more than one. Maybe for this one they will have an above grade seperation given there’s isn’t a north/south to east/west connection.
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Some more great news, it was the next logical step. I’d have to assume that the Newmarket sub (Barrie line) will pass over the CP North Toronto sub for this grade separation simply because there’s already a downgrade greater than 1.0% approaching the Davenport Diamond from the north. This bridge would be wide enough to accommodate 2 tracks to allow for bi-direction all-day two-way traffic on the line. South of the diamond the downgrade is a little more than half as much. Then again the powers that be might want to have Dupont St. pass over the tracks and not under, in that case the Newmarket sub would go under the CP line.
Once this is done there’s just one more grade separation for GO to complete in the GTA at the Doncaster Diamond (Bala sub & York sub) on the Richmond Hill line. (The Brampton diamond is to be removed all together.)
“This area really has it out for them.”
Unfortunately that’s what happens when you have 5 rail subdivision in you general area.
As a side note; weekend service to Niagara Falls may begin as soon as June.
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During Canada Line construction, the P3 building the line abruptly switched from boring most of the tunneled section to using cut and cover to save costs. Apparently, they switched just before construction started, giving residents little time to prepare. Is that what we can expect from future GO projects, considering Metrolinx is essentially a private entity?
Steve: Metrolinx may try to behave like a private entity, but it is owned lock, stock and barrel by the Government of Ontario. If Metrolinx starts acting too stupidly about its projects, life will get very hot for the Minister and the Premier.
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Drew T….what do you mean the Brampton Diamond is to be removed all together? Is OBRY shutting down? I don’t really see the point in GO Transit wanting to removing that diamond given the low traffic levels on the OBRY.
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“This project will continue disrupting the neighbourhood until late this year.”
Sorry, but to me this sound like pure NIMBYism, I really don’t see the difference between this mind set, the mind set that those in Ajax have about buses going by their houses, and the mind set of people who want to stop Transit City.
Steve: Have you ever had a pile driver next to your house shaking the floors for 8 hours a day? I suspect they only get away with it because the City has no control over a provincial agency.
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One way to address the complaints is to ask the residents if they enjoy hearing the sound of freight trains crossing the diamond in their backyard? That can be as loud as the pile drivers. I live at Roncesvalles/High Park and on a clear night I can hear trains passing through the junction. I think the grade separation will help their community in the end.
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Alex Hamilton Says:
April 16th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
“Drew T….what do you mean the Brampton Diamond is to be removed all together? Is OBRY shutting down? I don’t really see the point in GO Transit wanting to removing that diamond given the low traffic levels on the OBRY.”
CN would love to get rid of the diamond because it is always breaking down and forces an almost permanent slow order. CP would love to get rid of it too so they would not need to perform the maintenance on it. I know when CN remove the switch to the OBRY that they left open the possibility to reinstall it. It would make a lot of sense from both CN and CP’s view to have the OBRY interchange with CN at Peel and rip up the diamond and the track for there south to the 401. There is no industry north of the 401 until you get north of Brampton. The industries at the south end are still switched by CP out of Streetsville.
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Steve asked “Have you ever had a pile driver next to your house shaking the floors for 8 hours a day?”
No, but twise a year here at York University they build a tent for graduation ceremonies, using very big machines that cause most things in my room to vibrate. I also work nights (so I cannot get away with these ‘8 hours’ being while I’m not even at home) and yet I handle it, such is life. I don’t mean to sound insensitive, but if I have to I will – life sucks, deal with it. This project will help many people far into the future, inconveniencing a few people for a few hours a day for a few weeks will not end the world.
Especially considering that this project will help the environment, I have a very very hard time indeed seeing the other side of this argument.
Steve: You suffer for a day or two. The folks in West Toronto suffer for much of this year. You have no sense of proportion. This is not a “few people for a few hours for a few weeks”.
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“CN would love to get rid of the diamond because it is always breaking down”
I’m curious what breaks down. Is the track making up the actual crossing prone to some sort of failure, or does the signalling system cause trouble, or something else?
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Before calling the locals residents names like NIMBY or comparing the noise to that of the freight trains (which which locals are familiar), I recommned visiting the area during construction.
If you can’t, check out David Battistella short film that was posted by the Star:
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/609797
Now consider that there is a possibility for another site near your home.
Obviously the separations are going ahead, but if there is a way to lessen this racket and shaking that’s occuring and the cost wasn’t prohibitive, it should considered.
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Removal of the Brampton Diamond doesn’t make sense.
As I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong) this was the choice route for GO Rail’s proposed service to Bolton.
In addition to which there have actually been semi-serious discussions about relaying the track north of Orangeville all the way to Owen Sound.
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Nick J Boragina> You are very mistaken. The noise from this is unbelievable and relentless. It is shaking the foundations of homes blocks away. I cant imagine how loud it must be within a block of the site. If plates were shaking on your tabletop for 8 months, as has been documented, you would be fine with it…really ?
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Isaac Morland Says:
April 17th, 2009 at 9:11 am
“CN would love to get rid of the diamond because it is always breaking down”
“I’m curious what breaks down. Is the track making up the actual crossing prone to some sort of failure, or does the signalling system cause trouble, or something else?”
The point where the north south track meets the east west track, the actual physical meeting point The gap there lets the wheel fall slightly and it breaks of the edge of the rail when it hits the other side. The other problem is that there is a high ground water table and the diamond starts to bounce because of the pounding so the trains have to slow down. This results in a permanent slow order. CP crews are there two to four times a month rebuilding the contact points. It is an extremely high cost item that CP would like to get rid of from a maintenance point of view and CN would like to get rid of the slow order. With all of the extra trains that are going to be run the maintenance costs will get higher. If you are ever in Brampton and want to see the problem give me a call.
James Says:
April 17th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
“Removal of the Brampton Diamond doesn’t make sense.
“As I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong) this was the choice route for GO Rail’s proposed service to Bolton.
“In addition to which there have actually been semi-serious discussions about relaying the track north of Orangeville all the way to Owen Sound.”
The line to Bolton splits off from the right of way in Weston just North of Church Street Weston, which is 12 mile from Brampton. This line just goes to Orangeville and sees trains on Tuesdays and Fridays when an engine and 7 to 10 cars go down to Streetsville and another 7 to 10 go back to Orangeville. There used to be an interchange switch and track just west of the Brampton station. The switch was removed last fall but it can be replaced and then the OBRY can interchange in Brampton with CN. I do not believe that CP owns the line anymore but for some reason has to maintain the diamonds. If the line goes back to Owen Sound then they can still interchange with CN. The counties own the right of way north of highway 9 if I have read the reports correctly.
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“Is OBRY shutting down?”
The OBRY is not shutting down. Instead as mentioned it will switch out its cars at Peel or further down at Malport.
“the diamond because it is always breaking down and forces an almost permanent slow order”
Quite true, all trains going over the diamond are subject to a 35mph slow order. (its will be there until the diamond is removed). The speed limit west of the diamond is 70mph for passenger trains, quite the difference.
“As I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong) this was the choice route for GO Rail’s proposed service to Bolton.”
Sorry, you are wrong. The Brampton diamond connects to the Owen Sound sub, which terminates in Orangeville. It does not pass through Bolton at any point. The line that goes to Bolton is CP’s Mactier sub, the rail adjacent to the Weston sub that passes through the community of Weston. This line is heavily used by CP. Also when the Brampton diamond is removed the connection to the CN’s York sub will be re-installed.
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Bottom line folks, no transit improvement is worth this. There should of been consideration to the people who live in the general area. No doubt this is a cost saving measure that did not put the people in mind. I will encourage people to fight and make them stop this senseless pile driving crap. If it doesn’t stop, sue everybody that is involved and get what you deserve. Total crap, Iam backing he Nimbys on this one. The methods here, does not justify the means.
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re: James
The OBRY runs 10ish km west of the western edge of Bolton… Bolton is on the CP MacTier subdivision, and eventual GO service to it would run along that line, presumably also providing service to Kleinburg and Woodbridge. That’s what’s been appearing in all plans since the initial MoveOntario 2020 list, although no sense what sort of priority it is. As MacTier is CP’s only connection between southern Ontario and all points north and west, it’s a busy line and will need a fair bit of fresh trackwork.
AFAIK, GO train to service to Orangeville hasn’t been planned for, despite it seeming like an ideal terminal town in terms of its distance from Toronto and size. In any event, the OBRY is painfully windy for efficient commuter movement, and it would probably make more sense find a way to extend trains from Bolton further northwest, by re-laying track along one of the several abandoned branch line ROWs cross-country in Caledon, and then along the OBRY into Orangeville.
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Drew T Says:
April 17th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
“Sorry, you are wrong. The Brampton diamond connects to the Owen Sound sub, which terminates in Orangeville. It does not pass through Bolton at any point. The line that goes to Bolton is CP’s Mactier sub, the rail adjacent to the Weston sub that passes through the community of Weston. This line is heavily used by CP. Also when the Brampton diamond is removed the connection to the CN’s York sub will be re-installed.”
Actually Drew I believe that it is the Halton Sub as the York sub is east of MacMillan Yard Check out my wild rumor on the GO Georgetown Expansion meetings thread and let me know if you have heard anything. It sounds far fetched but these clowns are capable of anything.
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I’m with Steve on this one. Having watched the videos I couldn’t imagine having to live like this for nearly a year. For those that say they should have known before living near tracks, please. These people are not complaining about train noises, pile driving is completely different. This is a serious detriment to their quality of life. I couldn’t imagine how anybody working nights would be able to sleep at all, even with earplugs.
What are these people supposed to say? “Oh well, I’ll get sleep in December”. I am usually against NIMBYers but these people have a point. It’s borderline cruel.
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I stand corrected.
My thanks to Robert Wightman and Drew T. for the info.
Below is a link to one of the articles I read discussing the restoration of rail service to Collingwood.
http://www.theenterprisebulletin.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1514718
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I lived on Davisville Avenue 1 block from the Davisville subway yard. I vaguely remember when they were building it in the early 50’s. They drove piles into the ground when they built those retaining wallson the west side of the yard. Our house would shake when they were driving the piles. I can sympathize with those who are suffering.
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Adam Giambrone (he’s one of the local councillors in this case) sent the following email last night. You can view the attached example of the Snider grade separation here:
http://www.southjunctiontriangle.ca/DavenportDiamondOpenHouse1
From: Councillor Giambrone
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:10 PM
Subject: GO Transit Davenport Diamond EA Grade Separation Open House
Dear Resident,
Yesterday I met with GO Transit about their proposal for their Davenport Diamond Rail to Rail Grade Separation Project. They provided me with the attached image of the Snider rail to rail grade separation as an example of the kind of major structure they are proposing to run through our community.
I also was told that they had only advertised their upcoming open house, being held on Wednesday, April 22nd, in local newspapers. They have not sent a single flyer into our community to alert people to the major infrastructure they are proposing to build. This is clearly not good enough, so I have undertaken to have flyers delivered door to door over the next few days to the area bounded by Bloor, Dupont, Symington and Lansdowne to alert people to the upcoming open house. I have attached a copy of the GO Transit flyer for those who do not have it already.
I encourage you to distribute these GO Transit materials to interested residents so that people can either attend their open house, or call them directly, to tell GO Transit what you think about their proposal.
Yours truly,
Adam Giambrone
Toronto City Councillor
Ward 18 Davenport
Chair, Toronto Transit Commission (TTC)
Toronto City Hall, Suite C42
100 Queen Street West
Toronto ON M5H 2N2
(416) 392-7012
http://www.adamgiambrone.ca
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James Says:
April 17th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
“My thanks to Robert Wightman and Drew T. for the info.
“Below is a link to one of the articles I read discussing the restoration of rail service to Collingwood.”
One thing they talk about is convenience for vacationer but let’s look at the reality of the situation. I doubt that you would get many users because GO is set up to collect from a large area and drop at Union. Travel to Collingwood would collect from a relatively small area and dump in an even smaller one. It is much more convenient to run buses from a number of different sites for skiers. There is also the problem, of distances. It is 31 miles from Collingwood to Barrie and then 63 miles from Barrie to Toronto. This makes a round trip distance of 94 miles Actually this is competitive with the driving distance from Union Station which is 92 miles but the last 30 miles has a 10 or 15 mph speed limit and would need to be totally rebuilt. Politicians are quick to jump on band wagons and talk but they really need to get all the facts first and have a reality check. The problem is not getting to Collingwood on the rail line it is getting to the rail line in the first place. If you lived along the line you are OK but if you have to get to the line and then changes modes it is probably faster and more convenient to drive or take a chartered bus.
The GO train takes 1.5 hours to get from Barrie to Toronto. The extra 30 miles from Barrie to Collingwood would take 40 to 45 minutes if the tracks were rebuilt. That is a 2 hour plus commute. You would have to love Collingwood and be a train freak to spend this much time commuting to Toronto. The second question is do we want to encourage sprawl by providing this service? The idea sounds good to people who have not studied the actual operation but once you look at the facts it does not make economic sense to spend the money; unless it will get you re-elected.
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I agree completely with Robert Wightman on any service to Collingwood. In fact he took all my points & then added some more on the matter.
“As MacTier is CP’s only connection between southern Ontario and all points north and west, it’s a busy line and will need a fair bit of fresh trackwork.”
Very true indeed, CP is also requesting (i.e. demanding) that GO pay for double tracking the line from Bolton to Emery, located just south of Steeles Ave where the line is double tracked for a short stretch before any such service would begin.
“Actually Drew I believe that it is the Halton Sub as the York sub is east of MacMillan Yard”
Ah yes you are indeed correct sir, a bit of a brain cramp on my part there.
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What is likely to happen to the section between Brampton and Streetsville, not least given Brampton is also a VIA stop? Is it too much to hope that a light rail vehicle of some description could shuttle along the alignment and create a crossradial route rather than sacrifice it to the bikepathers? Presumably such a vehicle could manage to negotiate a steeper, less expensive grade separation than a heavy rail set and thus permit operation beyond the Georgetown line?
To return to the original premise of the post, it’s hard to see anything other than the Bradford line passing over the North Toronto although it’s going to be interesting to see what approach is taken south of the diamond, given the proximity of the existing Dupont bridge only about 100m away. If a higher bridge could be safely constructed it would offer the change to regrade Dupont from its current dip under the bridge but it looks tricky indeed.
Steve: I saw the detailed proposals yesterday and for all of the options, Dupont is regraded. If the CN goes over the CP, it will be high enough over Dupont that the existing underpass won’t be needed. If it goes under the CP, then Dupont as it exists is in the way of the CN.
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Mark Dowling Says:
April 21st, 2009 at 4:22 am
“What is likely to happen to the section between Brampton and Streetsville, not least given Brampton is also a VIA stop? Is it too much to hope that a light rail vehicle of some description could shuttle along the alignment and create a crossradial route rather than sacrifice it to the bikepathers? Presumably such a vehicle could manage to negotiate a steeper, less expensive grade separation than a heavy rail set and thus permit operation beyond the Georgetown line?”
The line runs an industrial area through parks and low density residential and other industrial areas to just west of the Brampton GO Station, in other words from nowhere to nowhere via nowhere. I cannot see this as a viable line even if they only ran an O-train every half hour. The diamond has to go before we can get high speed express service. There is not enought trafic, twice weekly 10 car frieghts to warrant a grade separation. Not all rail lines are worth saving and the cost to keep this one going is too much disruption to The Georgetown Line. The money would be better spent putting LRT on Hurontaio and Burnhamthorpe where people live, work and actually want to travel.
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Hello.
There is a silent, born in Canada solution to the loud pile driving.
round piles, of any diameter, can be quietly and without vibration screwed into the ground.
Please call me
Joe Nimens
HSD Foundation Technologies Inc.
1 705 493 2760
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I wasn’t aware of the quieter solution… though I can understand why the cheaper option was use. Maybe next time the solution is to use a mixture of bored and driven, to ensure some quiet days.
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On a seperate note, GO will be starting a Toronto-Niagara Falls service “this summer”… four trains/day weekends and holidays.
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There is a quieter solution – it involves drilling holes first, driving in the interlocking metal piles, and then backfilling the piles.
The problem with this solution is that it takes far more time. In the case of the West Toronto grade separation, instead of the project being done by this December it was projected that it would take until next July to finish the project.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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re: T – NF service…
Does GO owe compensation to VIA and Greyhound when it scoops routes?
Steve: I suspect VIA and GO have been negotiating. As for Greyhound, they have to take their chances. The legislation under which GO operates gives it the right to run services and any routes a private carrier may have are on a non-exclusive basis.
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Given the options available, any guess as it which one GO is likely to go with and how this will affect the community?
Steve: I was intrigued with the option that maintains a CN track crossing the CPR at grade while GO is grade separated. This allows steeper grades on the GO portion and reduces the length of the structure. The underpass variant is a non-starter because of the need to rebuild road crossings (including the one at St. Clair) to go over the new line.
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“On a seperate note, GO will be starting a Toronto-Niagara Falls service “this summer”… four trains/day weekends and holidays.”
Hate to say I told you so, but I did 🙂 (see my first post)
This train will start from Union and only make stops at Port Credit, Oakville, Burlington, St Catherine and end its run in Niagara.
To note, GO ran a test train to Niagara falls yesterday. It was only a 4 coach consist. Seem GO will initially run with this reduced consist format and only increase it based on demand.
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Wouldn’t keeping CN at grade interfere with the plans to eventually run GO service to North Toronto/Summerhill station?
Steve: No, there are very few freights on the CN, but retaining that track at grade means GO doesn’t have to design the bridge or underpass to suit the gentler grades needed by freight traffic. The bigger issue on the North Toronto sub will be CP traffic.
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Thanks for the answer Steve. I also find the option of leave a CN track at grade level interesting. I wonder though what the difference in grades between raising all the tracks and just go tracks will be? Do you happen to know? How does this compare to the West Toronto Grade Separation? What is the difference between the maximum grades for GO Trains compared to freight trains?
Steve: If you compare options 1, 2 and 3 in GO’s presentation, you will see that for the first two, where freight trains share the over/underpass, the maximum gradient is 1.2%. For option 3, where only passenger trains use the overpass, the grade is 2%.
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Drew T Says:
I can’t remember the year but GO ran a 12 car train with a locomotive on each end to take attendees to the Urban passenger Transport Association convention in Toronto a few years ago to Niagara Falls on a Saturday. The train had to unload in stages at Niagara and the lead locomotive was in the US when the tail end unloaded. I believe that they took over 2400 people to the Falls that day. They had every bus they could charter to move the people from the station to the Falls.
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Further to me previous comment is a question:
1 Are these trains to replace the VIA trains or to be in addition to them?
2 Are they going to be covered by the VIA ticketing and fare structure or will they be separate ticketing?
In the 60’s CN use to use GO equipment on weekend to run some Niagarea and even some Windsor service. The TEMPO trains when they were first delivered had the same voltage and electrical connectors as GO so they could mix equipment though there were no MU capabilities on the TEMPO cars After a while CN figured that running these cars to Windsor without toilets was a bit much but they still ran them to Niagara on weekends.
When Amtrack put in head end electrical power at the US voltage of 440 v CN/VIA converted the Canadian equipment to be compatible with the Americain. The connectors have different keys so they cars cannot be connected together electrically by mistake.
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Robert Wightman wrote:
Further to me previous comment is a question:
1 Are these trains to replace the VIA trains or to be in addition to them?
In addition to.
2 Are they going to be covered by the VIA ticketing and fare structure or will they be separate ticketing?
They will use GO’s own ticketing system.
That said, it is possible to purchase a VIA ticket to a GO train station.
Nitpick: Amtrak and VIA’s HEP system runs at 480vAC, and the equipment is only partially compatible with each other.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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I also have a solution to the hammer piles. Screw piles are easily installed and are equally as strong as hammer piles. please contact me.
1800 556 7361
Steve: I’m not the one to do the contacting. You should be calling GO Transit. Also, GO announced today that they are going to be doing something to muffle the noise.
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