28 thoughts on “6 Finch West: Six Days of Delays”

1. I bet this is fascinating to you! It’s shocking to me that the New Finch is far worse than taking the bus! There’s talk that people can walk faster than the new whatever it is, LRT? After all the years of suffering for people who live along the Finch area, it’s shocking that it would begin so poorly – and after so long.

   Same for the Eglinton line with a never ever end date – or is that start date?

   Makes me wonder how the new Pape line will work?!

   Good Morning Steve!!!

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2. Reading this, I conducted a thought experiment. Imagine if this line was built in, say, 1982 (leave aside the fact the subway didn’t go up to Finch and Keele back then). TTC gauge, extra CLRV’s/ALRV’s ordered specifically for this line, no over-designed signal/switch systems, just standard TTC equipment that somehow allowed for multiple-unit operation like the Witts (Yonge) and Queen (PCCs). Old-school Inspectors with clipboards at key intersections keeping an eye on things. Would we be having this discussion?

   Methinks we’ve “overdesigned” our way to producing results that worsen commensurate with “advances” in technology to the point where, at least in Finch’s case so far, we’d be better off if nothing had been built at all.

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3. It seems both this line and Eglinton are plagued with systems integration problems and that the P3 contractors have installed lot of fancy complex technology (which probably looked nice in the brochures and in the ads in the trade press) that doesn’t work properly. For instance does this line really need an “alignment” system, does management not trust the operators to not open the doors if it is unsafe to do so (and has anyone been injured on killed on the subway for lack of such a system there)?

   Ironically it seems Metrolinx lost of sight of one of the big lessons of the original light rail boom (which Calgary Transit did understand when building the initial C-Train system in the 80s) to use proven technology and avoid as much complexity as possible.

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4. “11:32pm Finch West Flat wheels on car. Deemed unsafe to operate.”

   That one in particular is of interest on a brand new line. I know the cars were out testing a lot already, but hasn’t someone been monitoring the most basic maintenance items required on a checklist each day such that this doesn’t come as a surprise?

   Steve: It was out as a storm car and probably created the flats by sliding rather than braking.

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5. What a sad story this tells. I’m curious that there are quite a few surprisingly short delays (< 10 m) where the problem was dealt with by a technician/mechanic. Does each train have a technician on board "just in case"? If so, maybe they could do fare inspections while they wait for the next mechanical issue… Presumably they don't travel to the trouble spots by LRT (sorry, little jokes there – can't resist). Maybe they sit parked in idling pickup trucks strategically spaced out along the route? Who is paying for all these people to hang around? TTC operating budget, Metrolinx, Mosaic?

   Steve: They will be in Mosaic’s budget.

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6. Back in 1982 CLRVs and PCCs rocketed along The Queensway on open ballast track. The PCCs did tend to hunt a bit, and the CLRVs would sway on their soft suspension.

   Typically no one was waiting at Colborne Lodge Drive stops, and the streetcars would run full speed through the intersection and continue down the track unabated.

   So we’ve now had 40+ years of progress….

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7. For instance does this line really need an “alignment” system, does management not trust the operators to not open the doors if it is unsafe to do so (and has anyone been injured on killed on the subway for lack of such a system there)?

   The same goes for the automatically applied braking! I’m sick of this “sAfEtY” culture that helps no one except for some useless desk jockey accumulating their own personal stats.

   All of these systems should be disabled immediately and ripped out to prevent management from being tempted to use them again.

   As for the vehicles being lemons… didn’t somebody else have that experience already? I guess nobody fixed anything between model years.

   Makes me wonder how the new Pape line will work?

   The elevated Ontario line has all of its systems exposed to the sky. Can't wait to see how all of that infrastructure (e.g. switches) work with these people managing it!

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8. I remember line 3 Scarborough when it opened there were a lot of issues especially trains running slow. We have to give some time for line 6 . It will prove itself.

   Steve: After months of testing it should run like a clock

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9. Mosaic definitely has their fair share of responsibilities, though we won’t know if they truly fulfilled their contractual obligations regarding travel time and availability until Metrolinx releases the details. However, the TTC simply lacks political sensitivity. Chair Jamaal Myers, in particular, is poor at expectation management. I still hear him saying, ‘we got 100 years of experience’ loud and clear—he sounded so confident, but I bet City Hall went into crisis mode shortly after that.

   ​I disagree that the technology is overly complex. It is a proven signaling system built right here in Toronto (used by SkyTrain and the RT), and Ottawa uses the same signaling and vehicle combination. The question is how prepared the TTC was after taking over from Metrolinx.
   ​Judging by the city officials’ performance in the meeting, it appears they don’t even know Ontario has two other LRT systems in Waterloo and Ottawa! I am confident those agencies would be willing to share valuable real-life experience regarding TSP and running an LRT in Ontario weather if the TTC paid them a visit. Or did the TTC just rely entirely on Mosaic and Metrolinx for knowledge?

   ​Politically speaking, the TTC is taking all the blame while appearing unprepared to answer difficult technical questions. Almost all operators manage expectations by warning people to expect problems during a soft launch. They shouldn’t have been overly confident only to fail spectacularly.

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10. Whenever I hear “ Public Private Partnership “ P3s

    I will respond that they are really P4s

    Public Pays
    Private Profits

    This screwup along with the Eglington Line and the Ottawa LRT are the sole fault of Doug Ford inserting his ideology that private companies have more expertise than the dedicated and experienced engineers employed by the TTC.

    Steve: I hate to defend DoFo but the whole 3P mess started under McGuinty through Infrastructure Ontario. Ford inherited and built in this.

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11. The entry for car 6501 at 3:07 PM on November 11 isn’t exactly correct. The car stopped at Emery, and the operator couldn’t open the doors. I saw him pick up the phone and call transit control for help. The doors opened after a while. The operator had trouble getting the car to move again after the stop was service and the doors were closed.

    Steve: The description in the table is condensed. Here is more detail with names removed:

    Unable to maintain scheduled headway.

    Hillcrest Tower Report: Tower noticed excessive dwell times on every platform.

    Subway Supv. Report: Operated stated they were following procedures and driving carefully. Doors recycled sometimes for customer accommodation. Counselled on moving off once movement authority received, once platform is serviced.

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12. How much more frequent and/or more severe is this list above the mean for such systems. 1 sigma? 3? 6?

    My layman’s expectation is that opening week will not be flawless. But these errors would seem to indicate failures in nearly every area including training, maintenance, integration and possibly design, none of which should be unknown before revenue service began. I imagine and trust that the TTC can remedy training issues. However, most issues lie with Metrolinx’s P3 consortium members. Are there any public details about sticks and carrots for the members to correct these issues?

    Steve: The contracts between Metrolinx and the P3 members are all confidential. Perish the thought we might know what they are expected to do and at what cost, let alone what penalties for non-performance.

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13. Steve, would you happen to know when the start date begins on a P3’s 30-year maintenance portion of a “build-design-finance-operate-maintain” contact? Is it when the contract is initially signed, when the owner gets the keys, or the line opens?

    From your knowledge, is there any precedent for the line’s owner to cancel the maintenance contract early and hand it over to someone else, like say, a large Canadian public transit agency with an experienced streetcar maintenance and overhaul shop?

    Steve: None of the details are public. As for a “handover”, things have to get a lot worse before that would happen. The obvious analogy is the restoration of public control over privatized rail and transit operations in the UK, and the desire of various parties to address problems rather than covering their asses on a bad business model.

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14. Thanks Steve, and commenters.

    Something on CBC site about a runner being faster than this service, sigh.

    And will we wake up to be realizing that while we need transit investment, mere Big Spending isn’t always the way for a set of reasons, and burying the billions tends to benefit construction interests ahead of public interest, as heaven forbid we really try transit priority, including at stoplights. Misrule by carservatives of all parties? (And the costs of cars to the public tend to be as well obscured as contract details; it’s not just these P3s sigh)

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15. I don’t think the Ottawa Confederation Line was a P3. It still managed to be a problem child.

    Steve: Yes, Ottawa was a P3. From the Key Findings of the judicial ninquiry report:

    The City lacked the procurement experience for a project of this magnitude. It engaged Deloitte and Infrastructure Ontario to advise on the best procurement approach. Following their advice, the City adopted a public private partnership (P3) delivery model – namely, the design-build-finance-maintain (DBFM) delivery model.

    IO’s hands are not clean in this either having lumbered both Ottawa and Toronto/Metrolinx with hard-to-manage contract structures. I remember a very self-congratulatory presentation at Metrolinx by David Livingston, then head of IO, subsequently a guest of Her Majesty for destruction of records related to the gas plant scandal, on the wonders of P3s.

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16. Ah. The wikipedia article on the O Train does not mention any of this.

    Steve: There is reference in the article to design-build-maintain procurement with is effectively a P3 because it outsources the construction and operation of the line. There is also reference to contracts with various vendors to build and operate parts of the system.

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17. Steve – not really a question but more of a comment. I just wanted to thank you for all of the work that you put into this – to the sites, to answering posts, etc. I’ve been following your site for years and as of late there seems to be some misguided hostility towards you and – I’m not sure if this is Line 6 frustration being directed towards you, but whatever the case is, it’s noticeable. So rather than you having to defend yourself, I just wanted to say thank you for keeping all of us informed, for keeping the TTC and Metrolinx accountable, and Happy Holidays.

    Steve: You are very welcome. There are a few trolls who see Finch, and Eglinton to come, as a vindication of their loathing for my LRT advocacy, and in particular what they see as my attempt to deny Scarborough the subway it so richly “deserves”. Their remarks here are almost always archived and then deleted unless they something vaguely intelligent from time to time, and without a mixture of racist, ageist and sexual slurs. It gives me great delight to “put them in their place”, the trash.

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18. Is there a map anywhere that shows the line 6 with respect to the local roads? I went to school at Mount Olive and Kipling and I’m not sure where the line would go there. (That was before they pushed Finch beyond Islington.)
    Any suggestions where to park in order to ride the line? I have to come in from Guelph.
    David

    Steve: Look at the system route map and zoom in to the NW corner of the map. Alternately, you can use Google Maps which shows where the transit stops are along the route. There is a huge parking lot at Albion Mall, as well as over at Humber College.

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19. Steve, first of all thank you for your excellent work.

    Steve: You’re very welcome!

    I’m a bit new to infrastructure watching. Is the level of secrecy and complete lack of public transparency we’ve recently seen around contracts, transit-related policies, service expectations, and maintenance (in reference to Finch & Eglinton specifically) unusual or par for the course when it comes to Ontario / Canadian transit agencies historically?

    I.e. do you perceive this as a Metrolinx-related phenomenon or is more systematic? Was it like this in the 80s / 90s?

    Steve: It is peculiar to Metrolinx which is extremely secretive as a provincial agency. Municipalities are subject to much greater transparency requirements. The situation varies across the country, but Ontario is notorious for keeping info confidential.

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20. Yes, thanks again Steve, for much!
    With opacity, there was an event by IMFG at UofT on Feb. 14 of one year not too long ago where one of the leading experts made reference to how Italy did have a problem with mafia corruption, and now so much/all of the large projects have their costs available as anti-corruption measure, but in Ontario, opacity is the norm. And indeed, what are a few billions here and there eg. burying the Eglinton LRT W for another couple of billion, and so much of the rest of the big projects (boonDougles?) also bury the billions, and I’ve a strong sense that there’s been zero interest in cheaper fixes, tho that may partially, or largely be, the sheer ‘carservative’ politricks of folks in cars (and some devilopers) mattering far more than the public interest. So the ‘cui bono’ is well worth asking about, though Liberals got away with the Sorbara subway extension beyond York University.
    And I may not know so much about all of this, but it’s seeming to be really stupid to add even further extensions to already brittle subway spines, and not try to have far more of a network, including new lines in existing linear corridors, yes, including the Don Valley Excessway, or parts of it. (Flooding is an issue, yes, but how about a pavement tax upstream to reduce surge? – oh, the votorists and we are carrupt for sure, with hints of ‘carmunism’, so the lack of real transit priority at signals really has to go to boost transit and get better value for the transit users/taxpayers.
    The stat from Vancouver, BC from Globe of Jan 10/96 of every car having c $2700 of avoided cost/subsidy, 7x more than transit subsidy, still fits, and if the costs of congestion here have risen so high, ahem, it’s ‘cargestion’, tho Queen’s Park is far too Congested, filled with Con-self-servatives.

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21. Hi Steve.

    I also want to thank you for your work on this file. Talk about a full time job.

    One thing that makes me scratch my head on this is how ION, with no prior rail experience, managed to build and operate the line with little of this kind of crap. I am also astounded that no one seemed to have bothered to pay them a visit and see what they are doing and compare it to the state of Finch West and Eglinton.

    Heads should roll at both the TTC and Metrolinx. Whoever thinks that it is acceptable to spend $2.5 billion on Finch to provide a slower service than the buses it replaced has no business working in public transit.

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22. City council finally voted to give LRTs and streetcars signal priority! Cautiously optimistic, as the exact implementation remains to be seen. It’s unfortunate it took this debacle to have this discussion and movement. Ideally the inertia keeps this moving to improve all streetcars to much higher standards as a viable alternative to running.

    Hopefully Mississauga takes note for their LRT.

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23. Steve,
    Firstly, thanks so much for all your work at advocacy on these issues!

    I’ve heard the issue of nearside vs farside stops discussed in the case of Finch. Currently with the farside stops, vehicles sometimes need to stop before a red light, and then again after the intersection at the platform as I’m sure you know. Is there any insight on how the decision is made to go with nearside or farside at specific intersections and what works best in terms of overall flow?

    Thanks again!

    Steve: As TTC staff said at the Council meeting, farside depends on having signal priority. This means more than just getting a bit more green time, but instead having transit its green as soon as it can be inserted in the cycle. City staff talk a lot about green time extension and truncation of reds, but not of changes to insert a transit phase when a transit vehicle is present. That said, on a frequent route there will almost always be a transit vehicle, but not every route all the time.

    In the specific cases of Finch and Eglinton, sometimes the decision is based on available land for the stations where farside in both directions is not possible. In all of this, design decisions about what would actually be implemented have compromised the original hopes for the line.

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24. I’m wondering was Rob Ford right about SUBWAYS, SUBWAYS, SUBWAYS?!

    Sure feels like it!

    Steve: If Transit City had been proposed as only subways, only Eglinton would have been built, and maybe not even that.

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25. The line 6 LRT is an example of how NOT to build a “rapid” transit line. This is a classic case of too many cooks in the kitchen. Involved are: 1-Metrolinx, 2-Mosaic Transit Group (a consortium of ACS Infrastructure Canada (Spain), Aecon (Canada), and CRH Canada Group (Dublin)) to design, finance, build, & maintain; 3-the Premier & Minister of Transport of Ontario; 4-Infrastructure Ontario; 5-Toronto Transportation Services; 6-City Council and mayor; 7-TTC board; 8-TTC management; and probably others.

    LRT means light-rail transit, but once this moniker is used to describe what is essentially a streetcar line, it immediately takes on an air of grandeur. I started wondering how the Finch West LRT compares with other streetcar/LRTs on ROWs in Toronto. (My data comes from Transit Toronto and Wikipedia.)

    Finch West LRT Line 6 – 36 Finch West bus carried 42,600 passengers a weekday in the 2010s. LRT line length is 10.3 km., 18 stops, estimated cost 2023 $2.5B, March 2025 $3.85B (373.8M per km, under construction from 2016 to Dec. 7, 2025, In late May 2024 a light-rail vehicle made the first test run along the entire line, from Finch West station to Humber College station, with speeds up to 60 km/h; Alstom Citadis Spirit light rail vehicles are used on the line; maintenance and storage facility (MSF) on a 100,000-square-metre (1,100,000 sq ft) site.

    St. Clair 512, built from summer 2005 (an injunction halted construction at the start) completed June 30, 2010, line length 7.1 km, 24 on-street stops, 29 minutes travel time, daily ridership 26,643 (2022, weekdays), project was initially budgeted at $65 million when it was approved in 2005, and the final cost was tallied at $106 million ($14.9M) per km).

    Spadina 510, streetcars returned on Spadina July 27, 1997, Charlotte Loop opened in March 1999,

    Harbourfront 509, Construction from May 1992, Opened 22 June 1990; rebuilt 2012–2014, line length 4.4 km, Daily ridership 10,717 (2022, weekdays),

    Lakeshore 508 “Queensway LRT”, The streetcar right-of-way (ROW) along the Queensway opened on July 20, 1957, together with the new Humber Loop. The project to build the Queensway and the ROW from Roncesvalles to the Humber River cost $4.9 million. On January 6, 1992, the 508 route began as an experiment, (out of 507 Long Branch, 501 Queen), suspended 2015-2019, again discontinued March 24, 2020, reopened October 29 2023, Effective September 2, 2025, route runs east to Distillery Loop.

    Ontario Line Line 3, now set to be $1.74 billion per kilometre; As of August 2024, the estimated cost for the 15.6-kilometre (9.7 mi) line is CA$27 billion with an estimated completion in 2031.

    Eglinton East LRT, potentially $250 million per km.

    Waterfront East LRT, If construction were to be funded, the line could open in the early to mid-2030s, according to planning staff. In 2023, planners had hoped for a partial line opening along Queens Quay East between 2030 and 2033 but with Union Station bypassed. The project would have fully opened sometime between 2032 and 2035. Cost estimates over the years were $520 million (2015), $700 million (2019), October 2023 $2.67 billion over 10 years2023 (incl. $932 million for Union Station Loop).

    Cost comparison ($million per kilometer):
    Ontario Line (2024 est.)                                        $1,731.8
    Finch West LRT Line 6 (2024)                                      $373.8
    Waterfront East LRT excl. Union Station Loop rebuild (2023 est.)  $371.0 
    Eglinton East LRT (2025 est.)                                     $250.0
    St. Clair 512 (2010)                                               $14.9
    

    Steve: Be careful with those costs. I have not cross checked them but Metrolinx includes 30 years of ops and maintenance in the total because of how the P3s are structured. This means that the cost/km is not directly comparable to other lines that only have capital costs included.

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26. Dil Singh: I’m wondering was Rob Ford right about SUBWAYS, SUBWAYS, SUBWAYS?!

    Sure feels like it!

    Steve: If Transit City had been proposed as only subways, only Eglinton would have been built, and maybe not even that.

    Even if we had gotten only one good line, it would have been better than the two GARBAGE LRT lines we got. Mayor Ford was 100% correct but unelected streetcar advocates like Steve pushed through streetcars/LRT which are slower than walking. Steve will probably delete this comment but that only shows that Steve knows how wrong he was.

    Steve: You assign far more power to me than I actually have. The TTC proposed an LRT network back in 1968, but this was killed off by a provincial flirtation with high tech transit that quite literally never got off the ground. Transit City was proposed when there was no money available for anything, and overbuilding subways where they were not needed was simply not in the cards. I did not “push through” LRT lines, although I certainly supported the proposals.

    The poor performance on Finch is down to a mixture of factors notably provincial interference in the contract and ridiculous constraints on the operation by the City and/or TTC. But the construction and equipment selection for Lines 5 and 6 are 100% provincial. They can’t even build tunnels properly as we have seen with some of the problems on Eglinton.

    Normally I delete comments like this which seem to come from only a handful of real people who in spite of many different “names” have a consistent style. This time there is no racist language (among many other sins) and it’s worth replying, once, to your garbage premise.

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27. I’m wondering was Rob Ford right about SUBWAYS, SUBWAYS, SUBWAYS?!

    More like dine and dash. When it comes time to pay the bill you and people like you will always be gone already. See Crack Ford when he famously refused taxes to pay for his subway fantasies and at the same time him and brother Hash Ford both shilled for P3’s like the ones being used for Eglinton, Hurontario, and Finch to pay for it all.

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28. I quickly put the data tables in excel to see what the main causes of delay. Through all the data there is 991 minutes of total delay. The top 5 common causes of delay all involve switches for a total of 476 minutes or 48% of the total delay. Seems like there are some pretty huge gains to be made by fixing this issue, hoping the TTC/Metrolinx can resolve this soon.

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