Toronto Council has approved the transit plan for Toronto featuring Mayor John Tory’s SmartTrack line and the Scarborough Subway after a long debate on July 14, 2016. Notwithstanding severe problems with financial pressures and the blind faith needed to expect that the entire package can actually be funded, Council added a few pet projects that never quite fade from view thanks to the efforts of individual members.
LRT proposals for Eglinton East and West survived the vote largely because they are part of larger packages – SmartTrack in the west, and the Scarborough Subway Extension in the east. The subway debate has so polarized camps that “LRT” is synonymous with third class transit simply because it was the heart of the “non subway” option. Without the bitterness of the SSE that required subway advocates to paint LRT in the worst possible light, its potential role in Toronto’s future network might not have been so poisoned while other cities embrace this mode.
Staff recommendations in the report were amended in some respects, and a few new clauses were added, notably one asking for City staff to pursue a co-fare arrangement with GO Transit.
The Waterfront Transit Reset report is a separate agenda item and, at the time of writing, Council has not yet dealt with it.
The Finch West and Eglinton Crosstown LRT projects are under Metrolinx, and they are already underway to varying degrees.
SmartTrack & Eglinton West LRT
The report’s recommendations were amended to include additional studies (see underscored text below):
- on a motion by Councillor John Campbell (carried 11-32) for additional grade separations at Royal York and at Islington, and
- on a motion by Councillor Holyday (carried 38-5) for commuter parking on the LRT.
1. City Council approve the following components which comprise the SmartTrack project scope, and request the Province of Ontario and Metrolinx to partner with the City of Toronto and the Toronto Transit Commission, to complete the remaining technical and planning analysis and undertake any required Environmental Assessment/Transit Project Assessment Process:
a. SmartTrack/Regional Express Rail (RER) Integration scenario with up to six new stations located at Finch, Lawrence, Gerrard and Unilever on the Stouffville/Lakeshore East GO corridors and Liberty Village and St. Clair West on the Kitchener GO corridor; and
b. Eglinton West LRT extension with between 8 to 12 stops between Mount Dennis and Renforth Gateway, and potential grade separations located at Martin Grove Road, Kipling Avenue and the Eglinton Flats as well as the potential grade separations at Islington Avenue and Royal York Road and a review of their associated costs.
2. City Council request the City Planning Division and the Toronto Transit Commission, in partnership with Metrolinx, the City of Mississauga and the Greater Toronto Airport Authority (GTAA) to further develop options for extending the Eglinton West LRT between Renforth Gateway and Pearson International Airport and examine opportunities to provide commuter parking for the LRT.
Scarborough Transit Network
Councillor Josh Matlow moved to replace the SSE with the Scarborough LRT, and to redirect funding from both the Scarborough Subway tax and the Federal contribution earmarked for the SSE to the Eglinton East LRT (lost 27-16).
Councillor Gord Perks moved that work continue on design for the Scarborough LRT in parallel with work on the SSE so that comparison of the projects could be made on an equal footing with up-to-date, contemporary cost estimates (lost 27-16).
Councillor John Campbell moved that a cost estimate for a subway on the SRT alignment be prepared. See clause 3.c below. (Carried 29-14.)
3. City Council request the City Manager and the Chief Executive Officer, Toronto Transit Commission to remove from consideration the 3-stop McCowan Scarborough Subway Extension (SSE) and continue to develop an SSE Express option, by conducting the following:
a. retaining the services of a third-party rail transit construction and cost-estimation expert to undertake a risk assessment and detailed review of the TTC’s 5 percent design cost estimates for the McCowan corridor and other possible express subway alignment options; and
b. prepare the Environmental Project Report for the SSE express subway and issue the Notice of Commencement for the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP) once ready to proceed.
c. preparing a cost estimate for Scarborough Subway Extension Option 2C (Express subway- SRT corridor alignment to Scarborough Centre (with partial at-grade)) that specifically reviews and assesses the current SRT surface route alignment, and which would route the subway track on surface or above ground, from a point just south of Lawrence Avenue East.
4. City Council request the City Manager and the Chief Executive Officer, Toronto Transit Commission, in partnership with Metrolinx, and in consultation with the University of Toronto Scarborough (UTSC), to undertake further technical and planning analysis with respect to an Eglinton East LRT extension to the UTSC, including:
a. advancing the Eglinton East LRT to a minimum of 5 percent design;
b. assessing the interface at Kennedy Station of the Eglinton East LRT, Metrolinx Eglinton Crosstown project, and the preferred Scarborough Subway Extension (SSE) option as a result of the analysis requested in recommendation 3;
c. assessing the potential realignment of Military Trail through UTSC; and
d. identifying the requirements for the next phase of the Eglinton East LRT extension to Malvern.
5. City Council request the City Manager and the Chief Executive Officer, Toronto Transit Commission, in consultation with Metrolinx, to develop a business case analysis for the Scarborough Transit Network solution, and include the following components in the network scenarios:
a. Express Scarborough Subway Extension (SSE), subject to the additional analysis outlined in recommendation 3; and
b. Eglinton East LRT extension based on the additional analysis outlined in recommendation 4.
6. City Council request the Province of Ontario to confirm the timing for delivering the approved Sheppard East LRT extension, with committed funding under the Building Canada Fund and the Toronto-Metrolinx Light Rail Transit Master Agreement signed in 2012, in order to inform transit network planning and business case analysis for Scarborough’s future transit network.
Councillor Glenn DeBaeremaeker moved to protect the woodlot at the southeast corner of STC from damage by the SSE project (carried 39-4).
That City Council direct staff to rule out any further consideration of locating the work site for the Scarborough Subway Extension in the Frank Faubert Woodlot.
Relief Line
When the report was at Executive Committee, the section on the Relief Line had been amended to include a request to report on an alternative alignment roughly between Gerrard and Queen Streets via Carlaw rather than via Pape. This was part of the recommendations before Council.
Councillor Mary-Margaret McMahon moved that provision for this study be deleted, and the original staff recommendation including only the Pape alignment be restored. Her motion lost on a vote of 35-8. Study of the Carlaw option will, therefore, proceed at an estimated cost of $520,000.
7. City Council approve the Pape-Eastern-Queen alignment for the Relief Line, subject to the determination of a specific alignment in Part 7b below, and authorize the Chief Planner and Executive Director, City Planning and the Chief Executive Officer, Toronto Transit Commission to:
a. work in partnership with Metrolinx to confirm station locations for optimal connections between the Relief Line and SmartTrack/Regional Express Rail, including future extensions of the Relief Line; and
b. undertake an additional assessment of an alignment west of Pape Avenue, starting immediately north of the GO tracks on Pape Avenue to south of Queen Street, with a station box at Queen Street and Carlaw Avenue and:
1. prepare an Outreach Plan in consultation with the local Councillor to review these option(s) with stakeholders, including the General Manager, Economic Development and Culture, and the public, including local residents; and
2. bring back a recommendation to Council, through Executive Committee, prior to commencing the formal Transit Project Assessment Process; and
c. prepare the Environmental Project Report for the Relief Line and issue the Notice of Commencement for the Transit Project Assessment Process once ready to proceed.
8. City Council authorize the City Manager in consultation with the Chief Executive Officer, Toronto Transit Commission to develop a Terms of Reference with the Province of Ontario and Metrolinx to advance the next phases of planning and design for the Relief Line, including extensions of the Relief Line north to Sheppard Avenue and west to the Bloor subway line.
9. City Council request the Toronto Transit Commission and the City Planning Division to assess potential impacts associated with tunnelling and station construction during the detailed design phase of the project, and identify mitigation measures for private property owners, and conduct further public consultation where impacts to residential areas are identified.
Cost Sharing & Funding
The recommendations include explicit funding for more detailed design work on the Eglinton East LRT (see clause 13 below) because this is not as far advanced as other parts of the network proposal. Eglinton West received more study up front as part of the review of SmartTrack and the decision already taken by Council to substitute it for the ST heavy rail branch westward from Mount Dennis.
10. City Council authorize the City Manager to undertake the following and report to City Council for its consideration:
a. negotiate cost sharing and intergovernmental fundings arrangements with the Province of Ontario for shared costs associated with:
1. implementing SmartTrack within the Regional Express Rail program;
2. extending an LRT along Eglinton West;
3. extending an LRT along Eglinton East;
4. operating and maintaining Metrolinx Toronto LRT projects;
5. municipal utility and infrastructure within Metrolinx-owned rail corridors; and
6. any other outstanding transit related matter.
b. review and report back on governance implications and arrangements to be put in place to effectively carry out the intergovernmental funding and cost share arrangements; and
c. negotiate and enter into a funding agreement with the Government of Canada for the federal contribution towards the incremental costs associated with implementing the SmartTrack components within the Regional Express Rail program, per recommendation 1, and the Scarborough Transit Network per recommendation 3.
11. City Council request the City Manager and the Deputy City Manager and Chief Financial Officer to report to City Council on the funding implications to the City associated with the proposed terms of cost-sharing arrangements provided for pursuant to recommendation 10.
12. City Council authorize the City Manager to include additional planning and design work for SmartTrack, Eglinton West LRT, Scarborough Subway Extension, Eglinton East LRT and Relief Line, as part of the priority list of projects to be submitted to the Government of Canada and the Province of Ontario under phase one of the Federal Public Transit Infrastructure Fund.
13. City Council approve the creation of an Eglinton East LRT capital sub-project within the Corporate Initiatives Capital Program’s Transit Expansion Initiatives project, with approval for a 2016 cash flow of $3 million and a 2017 cash flow of $4 million for a total of $7 million, for the purpose of advancing the Eglinton East LRT design work to 5 percent, fully funded from the Capital Financing Reserve Fund (XQ0011).
14. City Council request the City Manager in consultation with the Chief Executive Officer, Toronto Transit Commission, the Deputy City Manager, Cluster B and the Deputy City Manager and Chief Financial Officer to report through the budget process on the feasibility of establishing dedicated and properly resourced functions for the coordination, analysis and implementation of the City’s multi-billion dollar transit expansion initatives.
Hope Springs Eternal
Despite the fact that three transit projects have been studied and prioritized before and never make the cut, they have local defenders: extensions east and west of the Sheppard Subway to STC and Downsview, and a western extension of the Bloor Subway to Sherway Gardens.
The motion below regarding the Sheppard East subway extension conflicts with clause 6 regarding the Sheppard East LRT.
The Sherway and Downsview extensions are already part of the set of transit proposals under review by City Planning.
In the Feeling Congested study, the Sheppard East LRT consistently ranks among the top 5 routes through a variety of evaluation filters, but the Sheppard West and Bloor extensions fall below the top 5 in all cases. (Background Materials Scroll down to “Transit Maps”)
The real question here will be whether Mayor Tory will exert the same behind-the-scenes influence to gerrymander priorities to pay off political debts incurred to achieve support of his transit plan, or if we will actually see a fair comparison of these schemes against other proposals. There is a point at which the “integrity” of the planning process and staff could become meaningless.
The following motions put the three subway proposals back on the table for another round.
Councillor Justin J. Di Ciano moved that staff include the proposed Bloor West Subway Extension to Sherway Gardens in their ongoing studies (carried 32-11).
That City Council direct the Chief Planner and Executive Director, City Planning to include in the previously requested report to Executive Committee in the first quarter of 2017 on the second phase of Toronto’s long term transit network plan, a review and consideration of potential alignments and costs for an extension of the Bloor Danforth line from Kipling Avenue to Sherway Gardens.
Councillor Jim Karygiannis moved that staff include the proposed Sheppard East Subway Extension to STC in their ongoing studies (carried 24-19).
That City Council direct the Chief Planner and Executive Director, City Planning to include in the previously requested report to Executive Committee in the first quarter of 2017 on the second phase of Toronto’s long term transit network plan, a review and consideration of potential alignments and costs for an extension of the Sheppard Subway east of Don Mills to join the extension of the Bloor Danforth line.
Councillor James Pasternak moved that staff include the proposed Sheppard West Subway Extension to Downsview in their ongoing studies (carried 28-15).
That City Council direct the Chief Planner and Executive Director, City Planning to include in the previously requested report to Executive Committee in the first quarter of 2017 on the second phase of Toronto’s long term transit network plan, a review and consideration of the construction of a subway link between Downsview station and the Yonge and Sheppard interchange.
GO Transit
Councillor Vincent Crisanti moved that a Woodbine GO Station be studied for the KW corridor (carried 38-5). Note that this station would lie beyond the currently proposed scope of SmartTrack, but there was no discussion of examining a revised service design to extend ST service beyond Mount Dennis.
That City Council direct the City Manager and the Deputy City Manager, Cluster B to work with Metrolinx to consider further the feasibility of a Woodbine GO Station on the Kitchener GO Corridor to coincide and support potential future development in the vicinity, including development of more than 700 acres at Woodbine, and to report back to Council as appropriate, including the identification of potential contributions for a new station from private partners.
Councillor Mike Layton moved a request for GO co-fares to be extended into Toronto (carried unanimously).
That City Council direct the City Manager to negotiate a co-fare system with Metrolinx, similar to that current in place for other GTA municipalities, for existing GO Transit routes currently operating in Toronto.
Councillor Ana Bailão moved that staff report on a potential connection from the proposed new station on the Barrie GO corridor at Bloor Street to Lansdowne subway station (carried 41-2).
That City Council request the City Manager and the Chief Executive Officer, Toronto Transit Commission, to report to the Executive Committee in the fourth quarter of 2016 on the financial and logistical conditions imposed by Metrolinx that the City “provide accessible, weather-protected, pedestrian connection to Lansdowne Subway Station” and on the potential solutions to finance the investment needed to make this connection, as outlined in the City’s Official Plan.
Councillor Ana Bailão moved that staff report on potential changes to regulations governing trains to reduce the noise from GO services (carried 41-2).
That City Council direct the City Manager to initiate discussions with Metrolinx and Transport Canada to identify best practices and possible solutions that avoids the use of train bells and/or whistles for trains entering and exiting passenger rail stations, and to provide a progress report to the Executive Committee by the end of 2016 on the status of those discussions and to include any steps or legislative requests which City Council can take in order to eliminate the use of bells and/or whistles at existing GO Train stations.
Vote on the Item as Amended
- SmartTrack:
- Clauses 1.a and 2 carried unanimously.
- Clause 1.b carried 42-1.
- Scarborough Network:
- Clause 3 carried 28-15.
- Clause 4 carried unanimously.
- Clause 5 carried 36-7.
- All remaining clauses carried 41-2.
This is by no means the end of debate as many more reports will be required with further details on project options, cost estimates and funding schemes.
Steve Munro 
My comment was not about high rise density at in particular, but about this belief that outlying areas will naturally grow to outpace what can be provided by anything except for subways.
I specifically quoted James in this respect as saying, “Yes but by then demand would outstrip the capacity LRT can provide…”.
While higher density developments do occur at the location of subway stations, the level of use that demands subway must draw on a wide catchment area around those stations, generally fed by bus routes, such as those that will make use of the 32 bays at the STC station. This need increases as one moves further and further from the CBD core, and is part of the reason why many people prefer to live in such areas.
I lived in the Birchmount/Sheppard area of Scarborough for 20-or-so years and another decade in the Morningside/Ellesmere area, so I know how easy it is to think that a subway line is the be all and end all to transit woes, but in an area where people want to live with a little more elbow room, a higher-order transit mode needs to support that need for elbow room. Throwing all of one’s transit eggs in one subway basket leaves most everyone in that environment waiting for crowded buses with multi-level vertical transfers to the trunk line of a subway. LRT, on the other hand, can provide the capacity needed is shorter order with an ability to build out the network to cover a wider area that increases capacity as needs increased. The lower incremental cost also means that less political hand-wrangling is needed to expand the system. Over time, all that wonderful capacity that one subway line gives us is not only there with multiple LRT lines when the capacity is needed, but it does so with the ability to keep more of the system moving when (not if, but when) there is a problem on one line.
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SSE and SmartTrack – two of Toronto’s most needed projects must move ahead ASAP.
Steve: I would not agree that they are our two most needed projects, but you’re entitled to your opinion.
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Subway to Scarborough is very good because it will finally put us on the map. It hurts when people look down upon you when you tell them that you are from Scarborough or Scarberia is we are popularly called in contempt.
Steve: If people look down on folks from Scarborough, it’s not because there is no subway to STC. If anything, it’s because you are gullible enough to believe that the subway will really make a difference. Many in Scarborough, by the way, see through this plan, but they are ignored.
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This is very much at the root SSE debate.
There is a difference between where Scarborough commuters want to go conveniently within the City & where others outside of Scarborough see us wanting to travel. By in large the outsiders refer to today’s travel data that show the majority of people which use the bus service, use it locally. But they don’t listen to the same frustration I’ve heard from neighbours and friends from many parts of Scarborough since I moved here.
Scarborough Centre, North, East & North East wants both a better connection the core, as well as in improved local network. Many residents here would argue getting better TTC access to the core is a priority but it all depends where you reside. I’ve always said we need to look at integrated Scarborough with two brushes not one. A local network & improved core connections are both highly important to us.
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Where is Byford throughout this debacle? Surely, as a, “transit professional”, he cannot, in good conscience, still support the subway only extension.
Steve: What he supports privately, Andy is not saying. The problem as a professional is, of course, the real possibility that what we actually need will not be funded. So far, Tory is saying supportive things about the DRL, and there’s $150m in design money from Queens Park to spend, and so it’s early to talk about losing this most valued of projects.
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Andy Byford supports the subway to Scarborough (at least officially) and he has frequently boasted that as transit progress in his newspaper columns. If he did not like it, he cannot oppose it unless he wants to lose his job and given that it’s an extremely well-paid job, it is unlikely that he will sacrifice it because of his personal anti-Scarborough bias.
STANDING OVATION to that. Well said, Joe. If there were an Order of Scarborough award, I would nominate/vote you in. Thank you for your longstanding and continued advocacy for Scarborough!
Steve: I would just like to observe how this comment shows that it is possible to be pro-Scarborough without political and personal insults. Thank you!
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While Mayor Tory deserves a lot of credit for the Scarborough subway (assuming that it actually gets built and hopefully it would), there are also two other unsung heroes of the Scarborough subway: namely, the late Mayor Rob Ford and our very own Joe M on this site. This pro-Downtown site is not very friendly to pro-Scarborough Joe M but this has not deterred him from advocating for what he believes in. Thank you Joe M and thank you also to Steve Munro for giving Joe M a platform to speak even when his views are drastically different from yours! My own views are very different from Steve’s but still I have a lot of respect for all the work that Steve does.
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Thank you Mike/Steve for your responses. In a nutshell, Byford is just a, “nodding dog”, for his political masters.
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But why is a subway extension your preferred way to connect to the core? I’d think SmartTrack/GO RER would be much better: a faster express trip, bypassing the terrible crowding on the Yonge line, and with more-comfortable seats to boot.
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Waited a week just in case they changed their minds … again.
If the Express Subway to STC is completed, and Eglinton East to UTSC is completed, then the “renew, rehab, rebuild, replace, expand, or scrap” decisions for SRT can happen afterwards.
The cheapest option is to demolish the elevated SRT Kennedy terminal south of Eglinton and replace it with a ground-level single platform at Kennedy running parallel to the GO tracks, with escalators and stairs down to the concourse level to connect to buses or other trains at Kennedy.
Next cheapest is to do the same demo of the Kennedy elevated tracks, and drop them down to a single platform (also parallel with the GO tracks) at the Concourse level.
This means the SRT will be out of action during the rebuild (actually only the Kennedy SRT terminal), and with the ‘tight curve’ at Kennedy no longer an issue, the latest generation of Bombardier LIM trains can replace the mid-80s -era cars.
Since this might not happen until the late 2020’s or early 2030’s (whenever STC Subway and/or UTSC LRT are running), it’s likely the new generation of pols and bureaucrats at that time will make another few zigs and zags while deciding on renew, rehab, rebuild, replace, expand, or scrap the SRT.
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@JS Bertram: John Tory is pretty young and will likely be included in the next generation of politicians if not the head of the municipal government, then as the head of the provincial or federal government. On the day that the Scarborough subway opens, the SRT should close for structural reinforcement and repairs and then reopened with newer trains within one year of the much anticipated opening of the Scarborough subway. I am curious to find out what Joe M thinks the future of the SRT should be once the Scarborough subway opens. By the way, good work Joe M in preaching for fairness for Scarborough, all Scarborough people are in gratitude and let’s hope the Scarborough subway constructions starts soon.
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Regarding the future Lawrence station on the Stouffville GO line is there any consideration being given to using sections the hydro corridor next to it for the purpose of improved parking?
Steve: Actually, it is possible that this GO/Smart Track station cannot be built as long as the SRT remains in operation. Once the SRT closes, there will be lots of room for parking. Of course this option may not fit with the claim that the SRT will stay in operation forever.
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I suspect that there are at least three issues here, one of which is price, another of which is wealth of destinations, and of course the most important, will it ever exist.
I find myself always struggling with the absolute insistence on subway in Scarborough, because I know from a transit delivery, cost, and coverage perspective is offers much less than the best alternative ways of spending similar money. When you consider what could be built and operated for similar money and be made effective both in terms of serving the trip to core and within Scarborough, it is a poor cousin to a combination of LRT and BRT.
However, I then have to acknowledge Joe M. previous most telling argument, politics and cut backs. If you were to spend say 3.8 billion in Scarborough on the best possible transit, subway looks like a really poor way of going, but then well, would the plan ever be delivered, or would a single line be built, and then no more?
The real issue in all of this, for myself is credibility. Smart Track has none, it was created on the back of an envelop for political reasons, and will slowly evaporate, into other plans. A real plan, carefully considered for the city, is equally likely to suffer a similar fate, as it breaks into its component parts, and is not viewed by the public as what it needs to be, a network. When I read between the lines, the sense I get from really listening to Joe M, is not that subway is the only or even the best choice, merely an effective choice that might actually get delivered. This itself is the sad statement of why Toronto has the issues it does.
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This is troubling … I am beginning to understand why so much effort has been put towards shifting the new subway extension away from the existing corridor.
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BINGO – you got it; the single most determination of what quality public services different areas get is the “wealth of destinations” (quoting Malcolm N) and if it was not for that, then Scarborough would have had a subway decades ago much like areas such as Rosedale, Castle Frank, Summerhill, Old Mill, and the whole of Sheppard Line for example.
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Baby steps. I just want to see the subway push ahead further and improved first and foremost. Also want to see the Scarb-Durham BRT improved & implemented across much of this corridor to feed in to the subway.
Although many interesting ideas im sure will be debated for the SRT… Who knows.. Maybe it’ll be a bicycle “freeway” across Scarborough Center 🙂 Bicycling without sharing the lane with automobiles could be the (good) envy of the City.
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The problem is Joe, it will take more than one BRT in order to make it all make sense. The extension of the Crosstown is a start, but there is still a huge need to extend rapid transit. The scope of rapid transit, needs huge improvement in Scarborough and south and north Etobicoke, it is also required on the eastern waterfront, and surface transit capacity requires a huge boost in the shoulder areas. The problem I have always had with doing subway extension, is that the region is so far from having a large enough extent of rapid transit that it needs to build on the scope of kilometers per year, and subway is basically always going to be years per kilometer. I get the transfer concerns that many have, just because the TTC has had some pretty poor implementations but, frankly as a region this needs to get figured out.
The first order of business in making any of this work however, is finding a lock box method of securing money, so projects promised actually get built. I firmly believe that most of the city would be better served with a different mode of rapid transit than subway, but I also fully understand your skepticism. I think 3+ billion could have bought Scarborough a lot more, however, I share your lack of credulity when it comes to that money being spent, and see Sheppard as a case in point, should not have been subway to start, but when you seem to reduce the LRT commitment on the fly, well, if a project can be so easily stopped by a mayor, who lacks any authority technically, then how do we believe anything will ever be delivered.
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If the Scarborough subway had been replaced with LRT, then a single LRT line is all we would have gotten in Scarborough and moreover that too would only go till Scarborough Town Centre and we would also lose two stops (McCowan and Ellesmere) in addition to getting an LRT route shorter than the SRT route. Long extensions would be promised in a future phase that would NEVER come.
The whole idea about the Scarborough LRT was to shift the money saved to the DRL to serve the Greater Downtown Area. Moreover, the selling point for the LRT was that not only could it be built cheaper but faster than the subway. However, there is absolutely no way in hell that the LRT could come in service before the subway as there is no way in hell that the TTC would award the LRT contract to anyone other than Bombardier and already Bombardier has heavily delayed Waterloo-Kitchener LRT and Eglinton LRT is also at risk of huge delays in addition to utter incompetence with regards to the new streetcars’ delivery with even the latest already reduced delivery schedule expectations NOT met.
I might have accepted an LRT network in lieu of the subway in Scarborough ONLY IF construction began on all of them simultaneously (to ensure that ALL lines promised got built) and that too at both ends of each route (to ensure that routes were NOT cut short) AND we were guaranteed that Bombardier would NOT play any role in Scarborough transit (to prevent otherwise guarantee delays thanks to Bombardier’s chronic incompetence).
Steve: Your entire premise ignores the fact that Scarborough could wind up getting only its subway to STC and see everything else fall off of the table for lack of funding. This is one of the standard anti-LRT rants based on the idea that the LRT proposal was a way to shift money to the DRL project. In fact, when Transit City was proposed, the TTC had no interest at all in the DRL, and it was not part of any planning going on in Toronto.
It’s ironic that you would accept an LRT network if you could be guaranteed that all of it would be built. If it makes you feel good that Scarborough is now getting its best plan, that’s up to you. Just don’t complain when nothing else gets built because every penny went to your precious subway.
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If the *whole idea* was to move money out of Scarborough, then it is curious that Scarborough Transit Action and 1LoveMalvern were speaking out in favour of the LRT.
You are aware that construction began on the Sheppard East LRT and was then halted since “Transit City [was] dead”, right?
A few messages back in this thread we were in a place where “Scarborough Subway supporters” and “LRT network supporters” were at least engaging in productive discussion about how things could play out in the future. I was encouraged by comments from Joe M about the necessity for LRTs in Scarborough, although his vision was that these be built as a complement to the Line 2 extension. This perspective was a great leap forward from the fabricated “Scarborough vs downtown” frame that has been so damaging to transit riders and the fantastical “LRTs are streetcars” perspective that only makes sense if your view of urban form is exclusively informed from the driver’s seat (of a private auto with 1.1 occupants). From this perspective we can share notes, build some consensus and actually hold leaders accountable to stop promising and start building.
@”Pete” (who writes in astonishingly similar ways to the half dozen other single posters on this thread), I am compelled to address your disconnect with logic and fact, but your arguments are tired and boring. If you truly “accept” a transit network in Scarborough, I expect you to be out in the street when the Crosstown East starts to slip away in the face of our artificially-created budget shortfalls.
Steve: “Pete” shows up in a different guise every time he posts, often from the same IP addresses. When it’s just insulting drivel, you never see the comments. People who expect to engage in a dialogue here have figured out this pattern by now. Oddly enough, I don’t get this type of thing from any other part of the city, and it shows how badly the inflammatory language of Scarborough politicians has twisted the frame of reference for “debate”. Some of those same points were clearly part of Mayor Tory’s talking points as they showed up in the recent speeches at Council by his cohorts, not to mention in that disgusting “opinion” piece printed in his name.
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That is however the fundamental issue, and not just for Scarborough. I think if it had not been so easy for Rob Ford to de-rail (pardon) the entire LRT concept, this would have allowed a lot more credibility. However, the fact that Sheppard and the entire network, was stopped in its tracks (pardon) so easily, makes it much easier to question any alternate project, especially as the Vaughan subway extension (a really dumb idea) kept moving forward. Yes there was already more money sunk into it, but there was also much more to go. It gives the appearance that subway projects somehow are harder to stop. So really bad subway goes forward, good LRT stops in its tracks this creates real political problems. This is one of the reasons I think we need a more robust process, that is harder to push off base. The idea of an arms length group, running the process is great, too bad we do not have one.
You are right every dollar will be spent on subway, and the alternatives would be better, however, I think real transit progress in Toronto is going to require a way of developing trust. Toronto needs multiple km of rapid transit per year now, not the rate of scope expansion that subway can achieve. Also subway so far from best use sucks operating dollars. The STC extension, can only be mode to make sense really with other rapid transit linking to it, however, Etobicoke also needs some substantial work, and is equally poorly served. Perhaps if it sees similar money, it can be managed in a more robust process. Finch West LRT, needs to be built, Crosstown to airport is also required and they need to go point where they meet, and share a gateway in the airport district. There is also a screaming need for some north south service further west than the subway. This is also the case in Scarborough, where a link from the STC to Steeles is needed, as is east west rapid transit north of the 401. However, it is hard to see in Scarborough with all that money in subway.
It is also hard to see trusting a system that does not deliver networks but lines to stick to a plan. I think where we have ended up in Scarborough is a mistake for all, but also understand why those residing in Scarborough would not want their transit to rely on a non subway project. Hard not to back the horse that seems to plow forward regardless, and in Toronto, that has been subway.
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The DRL will do nothing for those of us who live downtown. Even if a person from this part of the City was to commute to an inner suburb, the journey is counterflow. The choke point is Bloor and Yonge and the people passing through that point are in the majority, from elsewhere than downtown. (Many do come from the old City of Toronto – probably all of which is considered to be “downtown” by those who use this description as a slur – but many more come from inner or outer suburbs.)
What would delight me – and meet my selfish interests – would be a (second rate???) Waterfront West LRT.
Steve: I would prefer a first rate WWLRT without some of the bozo ideas being floated for the connection at Union Station, not to mention more accessible GO service at lower fares for inside-416 travel.
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That was done only to help GO Transit riders from the richer 905 areas and to help traffic from richer areas surrounding Scarborough. It was done in name only as part of the Sheppard East LRT to convince Scarborough taxpayers to pay for the grade-separation but in reality the Sheppard East LRT was NEVER going to be built NOR any other form of higher order transit in Scarborough. As proof consider this: why would the LRT need to be grade-separated at the railway crossing when the LRT was NOT going to be grade-separated anywhere else? Because there are TWO GO trains crossing Sheppard during the morning and evening rush? It made no sense to grade-separate the LRT at rail tracks barely even used when the rest of the LRT was going to run in mixed traffic and having to wait at red lights, etc. The grade-separation there was sold to Scarborough as part of the Sheppard East LRT only to convince Scarborough taxpayers to pay for the said grade-separation but the authorities NEVER had any intention of building the LRT or any other higher order transit in Scarborough.
Steve: The plans for GO are to have trains at least every 15 minutes both ways on that line, not two trains in, two trains out. Your hypothesis is crap.
By the way, the grade separation was not paid for by Scarborough taxpayers, except to the extent that they contribute to provincial revenue
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Sorry Steve. My sarcasm got the better of me again. I too support a first rate WWLRT.
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That sounds like something we the Scarborough taxpayers can financially support even though it only helps Downtown. First-rate LRT would cost too much and instead we can create tracks, etc to international standards (gauge size, etc) and buy second-hand streetcars for the Waterfront West LRT as well as Queens Quay East.
Steve: Did we suddenly move Etobicoke to “downtown”, or do they teach geography differently in Scarborough? As for whose taxes pay the freight, need I remind you that the lion’s share of residential and commercial taxes are not paid in Scarborough. Bluntly, the city could get by quite well without your contribution. The idea that Scarborough taxpayers are being ripped off is a convenient fiction.
As for track gauge, that’s a minor issue. Cars of many gauges run all over the world, and the idea that TTC gauge adds a huge cost is a red herring. And if you’re willing to accept “second class”. why are we building you a “first class” subway?
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The question was asked about the SRT not about other projects so I didn’t feel the need to address any other projects aside the those in the core area. And the BRT and SSE will be a much better start IMO.
And regardless of what some are trying to suggest in the bias media the SSE is just the starting point in Scarborough. Now we can design & build a integrated network going forward in this City. It’s unfortunate it took so long to get here. Transit City wasn’t all bad it just needed to be improved and residents’ concerns needed to be addressed.
More than 9/10 articles in the Star & Metroland in the last decade were heavily LRT biased & didn’t reflect even their own latest poll which showed 6.5/10 Scarborough residents supporting the SSE & 5/10 in Toronto. Imagine the support if the SSE had more stops. The voices had been drowned out & we ended up with a polarizing wrecking ball to fight back. Kudos to Tory who just withstood a media shit storm to put a possible end to this nonsense at least on this issue.
Blame who [you] want for this political climate we just witnessed. It’s time to move forward and face the funding reality to build an integrated, growing network in this City
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The issue is Joe that this is somewhat of a loop, and we as voters, need to take some ownership in the issue. We do have the opportunity to express concerns, and for myself at least I realize a couple of basic realities.
1. Is that the downtown and core have the subway they do in large part because the old city built that portion, before it was part of the larger city. However, even the shoulder areas of downtown are not that close to subway.
2. There is not the money to extend subway to all the areas that require a much higher level of rapid transit.
3. Density has not been forthcoming, and subway alone will not bring it at a high enough level to justify subway, and the city is choking in traffic, which means long bus runs in traffic are becoming increasingly unworkable, even to areas like the STC, let alone locations in the Yonge line.
4. Some of the current runs to subway are so long, and will soon enough carry enough load as to make it hard to do well with BRT without taking more roadway than reasonable and are still nowhere near justifying tunneling.
5. The projected growth of the region is such that the roadways are going to be far worse than they are, unless nearly all the growth can be absorbed by transit,
6. Increasing density inside the 416 and creating avenues with high levels of density, and hence pedestrian accessible services like the downtown shoulders near existing low density housing would be desirable for all, in terms of making a higher quality lifestyle beyond just the downtown.
This is a set of realities, that the city as a whole and its voters need to acknowledge. The precise details of what, where, is not really the point, it is an understanding that the airport district, the STC, the NYCC all require real feeder networks if they are to not be destinations of crushing congestion generating trips. We need to support a vision for a regional network, and not just 1 link in our own backyard. We need first and foremost to support a vision of planning, and execution that is being driven by professional planners, not political hacks. I have the overwhelming feeling that to a great degree support for subway over the alternatives in Scarborough is anchored on the understandable belief that subway would be replaced just by a single LRT on the same essential route as subway, not a network. That belief, and the reality it is anchored in is what needs to change at a most essential level.
Toronto, has lost its vision of itself as a region, as a consequence has lost support for transit as a tool of development, and as something supported on principal as opposed to narrow selfish interest. The fix to the city, means retaking that vision, and supporting transit on principal, and supporting it for all, including Scarborough, but also Northwest and southern Etobicoke, and the shoulders of downtown (where the large issue is capacity).
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@Malcom N – If I may propose an amendment to your #4: “…BRT without taking more roadway than *politically feasible in Toronto 2016* and are still…”
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@Pete – Steve pointed out one factual misrepresentation from your comment. Would you like me to point out all of the other factual inaccuracies and fabrications?
Steve: No.
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I was actually suggesting that what would could expect in some areas, it would require a BRT that would need to permit passing within the BRT. This would mean having sections that were 3+lanes going through stations, as well as requiring 2 platforms because you cannot use a centre loading island. That is the BRT would need to be twice as wide as an LRT in sections, to carry that kind of load.
LRT at half that width already exceeds what appears to be politically feasible. However, I am suggesting we get over the worst of our stupid politics, and start to be reasonable. This of course starts by creating a process that permits some real belief in execution. Thus back to needing to start with the politics, and punishing politicians when they try to change a deal, even if it is in our favor, once it has been crafted. A deal once open is open from all sides, and the essence of this, is at the root of Toronto’s problem. This has been the case to such a degree, that nobody ever believes a decision is truly made, until after the project is nearly complete, or substantial construction has been undertaken, and the only portion remaining is the one portion required to make the line operate at all. This belief makes building a line in increments exceedingly difficult.
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Good to know that the Bloor-Danforth line is extending further east to Scarborough. I just want to say that it is also time that it extends further west to Mississauga City Centre. If we want to reduce the number of cars entering Toronto, then it is a must that we continue to extend the subway further and further in the 905 to places such as Mississauga, Vaughan, Markham, and Newmarket.
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“If we want to reduce the number of cars entering Toronto” is not going to happen by building a few subway extensions. This is the purpose of GO trains and buses – and remember, subways are much slower than a GO train because of the number of stops. And unlike the New York Subway which is built to have express trains that skip many stops, our subway system is not designed to allow that option, and only Line 1 goes into Union Station.
When was the last time a major office building was built at Yonge and Bloor, or in any of the 4 “Centres”? A couple were built in North York a few years ago, but these nodes are turning into condo areas with little employment except retail.
With 80,000 to 100,000 extra people per year coming into the GTA, fat chance in ever reducing the number of cars – it’s only going to get worse unless we reduce population growth. The other strategy would be to have more jobs in the 905, but in past, those jobs have mainly gone into low density business parks far away from transit or even GO.
The key is normally to get people to live close to work – reduce commuting distances … so all those condos Downtown have probably done more to help than anything else. With married couples though, Downtown is too expensive and inevitably not both parents can live close to their jobs.
Other than Mississauga and Vaughan’s plans for around the subway, the 905 is not taking intensification seriously, even with the Greenbelt.
The province needs to encourage that growth happen beyond the GTA – which does not just mean leapfrogging to just beyond the Greenbelt, but to economically revitalise other cities and encourage people to settle there … where housing is cheap, by the way.
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Oh, there are 211,000 households in Scarborough. In effect, a $3 billion to make Scarborough feel loved is like giving every household $14,200, which is enough to buy a car.
A Nissan Micra starts at $9998, or is $11616 with freight and pdi plus hst – still cheaper than a one-stop subway, though it would be more for air conditioning and automatic… and rather than waiting a decade, those cars could be cranked out in Mexico in a few weeks.
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@Josh – If we want to reduce the number of cars entering Toronto, then we should do things to limit the number of cars entering Toronto. Somehow, the policy choices that would actually achieve this seem to disappear from view, especially as a larger portion of the electorate lives in the very places you name. Coincidence?
“Are cars the new tobacco?”
As for extending subway lines into low density automobile suburbs, I’m willing to pay increased taxes to achieve this on the condition that there’s actual high density development in the pipeline. How about you?
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Just as GO transit is reluctant to serve for “local” trips within the City of Toronto, the subway system is set up for local travel within the city — the Bloor Danforth from Kipling through to Victoria Park at least. Extending it to Brantford and Bowmanville and Newmarket means that the Yonge and Bloor streetcars will have to return (possibly Bay, Dupont, Harbord, and Rogers as well), since there won’t be room on the local portions for anyone to get on or off.
And it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that, if the subway does extend that far, it won’t be a single-fare TTC ride all the way. The cost will be equivalent to GO bus/train (which already serves these centres). Metrolinx’ fare study makes this pretty clear; maybe they are getting ahead of the “extend the subway to Alberta!” crowd.
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Yes, and frankly, we all know that once somebody has actually gotten into their car, they tend to stay there, until there is a very strong logical break in their trip. The trick is to make it so they are starting with the mindset of going to rapid transit, close enough to make the car unneeded. Toronto, needs to get away from only serving core oriented trips, as there are simply far too many other trips for the road capacity we have.
Simply extending subway, even if you achieve density in the suburbs is not enough. Realistically it requires covering far more of the area with rapid transit close to origin, and close to destination without too much trouble between. Ideally this would mean something close to a reasonable grid of rapid transit, which covered the vast majority of major destinations, and close enough to origins that a short bus ride, or even walk onto the line was practical. Just developing subway, means the costs of transit extension and land for employers and people remain prohibitive. Development moved beyond subway, because the costs for employers and workers alike were too high, we need a broad network, that allows people to actually locate in a broader range of places, than a couple of tightly focused lines.
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“A reasonable grid of rapid transit” – except that what we are doing is building a hub and spoke system, rather than a grid.
Many trips start in one suburb and end in another one. Even within the City of Toronto (yet alone the 905) it is not easy to get around – like from say The Beach to Don Mills, and particularly outside of rush hour service. And many people have multiple tasks to do outside of rush hour – like shopping…
Cars are not going away – internal combustion engines using fossil fuels can be replaced with something else, but driverless cars actually will make it harder to reduce car use, unless we tax cars so heavily that only the richest can afford them.
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Exactly. We are not today looking to build a grid. The notion of Transit City, came much closer to a sparse grid. A denser one is needed, but that could be addressed with additional BRT lines within. The direction we are headed is creating a hub and spoke, which focuses on the core, and I agree will not resolve the issues. Rather than the subway going to Vaughan it should have ended at York U and the balance been replaced with LRT to Vaughan and Yonge subway, as well as Finch West from there through all the way to the airport and Crosstown LRT.
If we were really looking to resolve issues, not win elections, and really looking to improve lives, we would be building a grid of lighter rapid transit, looking to build subway only where there was a critical capacity issue. If we were to spend $2 billion per annum in the GTA on lighter rapid transit, we could make a huge dent on a broad network in a short period. Spend that on subway, and we will never make a dent. Think in 5 years at that clip, you could have FInch West airport to Spadina Subway, Sheppard East Morningside to Subway, Hurontario-Main, Malvern extension, and several substantial BRT. Extending subway, cannot hope to cover that ground, and doing so without capacity relief merely makes things worse.
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I think we agree Malcolm… and this is the fundamental dispute is over 2 visions that the public doesn’t seem to get.
Subways are faster and more comfortable than LRTs buses etc. – many people will get out of their cars for a subway because a subway can be much faster than a car. But subways are really only adding or extending the hub and spoke system. The Sheppard subway could have been the first step towards a ring to connect the spokes to let people go long distances from suburb to suburb without going through Yonge/Bloor (or St George) but the real vulnerability or limit is becoming Union Station.
Getting around the suburbs by car was once relatively easy – now it isn’t because of the 1990s job growth in the 905 plus sprawl.
There has been a real failure in long term transit planning in this city. Line 1 was not designed like New York to have express trains, but instead seems to mirror London (and I understand that of course it was our transit planners had been in London as soldiers during WW2 that lead to this oversight).
There was no planning for a network of subways or LRTs by leaving right of ways across the city – we could have used the hydro corridors, but some of these were sold off, and of course, the western part of Smarttrack was screwed up this way too.
GO is also hub and spoke, since there is no GO service using the line south of St Clair.
The province had a plan for 400 series highways but never applied the same ideas to transit. And sadly LRTs running down the middle of densified Avenues are other slow or need to have stops so far apart to be fast that ultimately walking distances become so long that retail won’t work – much like the subway on Danforth has hurt was was once vibrant in the first place when it had streetcars.
I am giving up any hope for this city because of the failures since Mike Harris (cancelling subways and downloading and the Megacity) and the subsequent lack of action by the Liberal government and the flip flopping and shortsightedness of the mayors and councils – which in turn is due to voters and the political systems we have (incumbency, fundraising rules, fptp and other rules). We can blame the OMB too since density is going where it is profitable not necessarily where it should go.
We have too much and lacked the ability to plan adequately for it… and the subway lrt debate is like a dog chasing its tail and getting nowhere.
The provincial government is ultimately to blame – either make decisions and force cities to stick to them, or download power (or upload powers where appropriate) and provide adequate funding…
You can only muddle through for so long before it becomes a crisis. Toronto and Ontario were very lucky to get so much right from 1945 to 1995, but since then it seems like we are getting everything wrong.
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I would actually argue that it went wrong closer to 1981. The SRT was a mistake it should have been lower cost, and longer extension with an ability to expand, and a working transfer. Most subway extensions after 1981 have been largely ill considered. Sheppard should have been LRT, with an underground section so that it could be more easily extended. The Downsview station may not have been a bad idea, even extending Spadina as far as York U. might be ok. However, most of the choices have been deeply questionable, subway to Vaughan why?
If we had better planning, there would have been an allowance for a Waterfront West LRT through the railway lands. I would argue that the major mistakes here, also date back before 1995, the lack of planning is a problem that has been an issue for a long time. However the lack of long planning appears to goes back further than any of us like to think. If the province had been serious we would have long ago, at the least we would have secured ROWs, better we would have a series of LRTs in place, on the ROWs. The lack of planning goes back to at the least to the Davis years, as we did created a row that could not be expanded, and an incredibly bad transfer. Toronto, started down the wrong track, literally and has never recovered.
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Let’s talk about what this all comes down to: travel time
Yesterday, for example, I got to Kennedy, and was greeted by the familiar “signal problems” message. It would be 15 minutes before the train started moving. Then it chugged along to bring me to work full 25 minutes behind schedule.
Over the last month there were 3 or 4 times when I was stuck in the tunnel on Yonge line few stops away from my station without even an acknowledgement of a delay (I travel partly against the major flow, Scarborough > North York). I got used to those too.
And then there’s the lack of AC or any kind of ventilation on too many Line 2 cars…
My point is – according to Google, my daily commute should take 58 minutes, yet on average it takes me closer to 1:10, with at least one day a week where it approaches 1:30. If the subway service stays at the same quality, then addition of any rapid transit might shave 5-10 minutes off my commute (subway won’t help me, but Eglinton East extension would), yet the wild variance of travel time will stay.
What I do know is that building the single subway stop will help a small portion of Scarborough residents (not me), but will definitely starve the TTC of any remaining capital budget since the city is responsible for overruns. I would love me some Scarborough LRT with Eglinton East extension, but if I only had one wish I’d say fix the subway consistency first, because as it stands right now, I have to leave home a full half hour earlier every day because the chance of TTC making me late is too high. No rapid transit expansion can shave half hour off my trip.
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