On December 16, 2015, the TTC Board will consider a report from management recommending several changes in the fare collection system. Some of these proposals are straightforward while others are likely to bring confusion and outright complaints from TTC riders.
On December 14, the TTC streetcar system goes to “Proof of Payment” (POP) on all routes and a few days later, Presto will be enabled across the streetcar system. In the short term, paying by Presto will be akin to dropping a token in the farebox on the “old” streetcar fleet. If you need a transfer, board at the front door and get one from the operator. Otherwise, rear door boarding is allowed. Transfers will be required if somewhere in your journey you will encounter a bus that is not Presto equipped. (The TTC is silent on how they will handle a route like 504 King that operates both types of vehicle if a Presto user discovers a non-Presto equipped vehicle is the first thing to show up.)
The roll out of Presto brings the opportunity to revise the fare system, for good or ill, as the TTC migrates away from its conventional model of tickets, tokens and transfers. (It is worth noting that a large number of riders have already made this migration by using Metropasses which are simple, if limited in the fare options they provide.)
The transitional period when both Presto and existing fare payment systems co-exist will be a difficult one. Indeed, there are strong incentives for riders not to shift to Presto until the system is fully functional unless their TTC usage is limited to that part of the network where Presto is active.
Changes to be Implemented in 2016
Daily Caps on Fares on Presto
Presto users who “pay as they play” (as opposed to those using a pass) would have their total daily fare cost capped at the price of a Day Pass regardless of how many trips they take, effectively removing the need for this type of pass. Given that Presto will not “work” system wide, the paper version of the Day Pass will still be required for people whose trips begin on non-Presto routes.
Weekly and Monthly Passes on Presto
Presto users will be able to load a weekly or monthly pass on their Presto card. Like the Day Pass equivalent described above, this is of limited use to anyone whose trips might start on a non-Presto route. There is no point in paying for a monthly pass and not being able to use it for some trips.
Note that the discounted plans for Metropasses will not be supported on Presto in 2016 (see below).
Mixed Mode Routes and Trips
Some routes operate with a mix of buses and streetcars, and there is no guarantee, especially early in the conversion, that the buses will have active Presto devices. This means that, for example, the 504 King buses will not be able to accept monthly passes on Presto, and pay-as-you-play riders will require a supply of tokens “just in case” a bus shows up.
Daily fare caps on Presto won’t include fares paid with tokens, and so this feature will be of limited use.
Changes to be Implemented in 2017
Standard Cash Fare
Although this option was rejected during the 2016 budget debates, management has brought back to the table the idea that there should be no discounted cash fares for seniors or students (children already ride free). The premise is that this change will push more users onto Presto, and that has the earmarks of “it’s easier for management” rather than “it’s better for the customer”. There is no counter-proposal to explain how the system would operate if the discounted cash fares remain in place.
TTC would introduce a single cash price for all customer categories. It would have the greatest impact on seniors and students paying cash, as they can currently take advantage of a discount no matter what type of fare media they choose to use. Seniors and students would still have access to a discount when using the PRESTO card. This option would encourage migration to PRESTO, is consistent with the other Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area transit operators who also have a single cash fare and do not provide cash discounts for seniors and students, and optimizes TTC revenue and operations. [p 5]
“Optimizing” TTC revenue is a polite way of saying that, because some riders would simply pay the full fare because they have no Presto card, TTC revenues would go up. The projected amount is up to $5-million.
Proof of Payment System-Wide
Some form of POP will be required wherever a rider is on the TTC. Presto users (a group that, by 2017, will also include all Metropass users) have their POP by virtue of their “pass” being encoded on their cards, and non-pass users will have a valid “fare” from “tapping in” at vehicles and stations. What will remain will be the cash fares for which a fare receipt (subway stations or new streetcars) will be required.
An outstanding problem for cash fares is that “transfers” as we know them will disappear. If the point of entry to the system is incapable of dispensing a receipt, then a cash-paying rider would not be able to transfer (see below). This will affect all users of bus routes and the old streetcars except to the degree that the TTC provides on-street fare machines that could issue receipts. One option the TTC is considering is that such riders would just be out of luck and would be forced to pay another fare to transfer.
Tap On/Off Requirements
All surface vehicles would require a “tap on” to enter, and a “tap off” would be needed to exit a subway station through a fare gate.
On the subway, this provision is in part to deal with special fare arrangements for riders from York Region on the Spadina extension (TYSSE), although it is very much a “tail wags dog” situation. Although not detailed in the report, the implication is that if the tap in/out both occur in York Region fare territory (however that is defined by that time), then a lower fare would be paid than for a York-to-TTC trip, probably by a refund mechanism similar to that used by GO (charge full fare on entry, partial refund on exit).
Tap off would not be activated until 2017 when legacy media (passes, tokens, transfers, tickets) would no longer be used. This also co-incides with the opening of the TYSSE, although the timing of events may require transitional provisions depending on how long the legacy media survive beyond 2016.
Tapping out of stations would be a new behavior for customers to learn, customers will be required to tap out on the Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension to avoid paying an additional fare when traveling from York region. For consistency, this functionality should be expanded to the entire subway system. This clear message will help reinforce the correct customer behaviour around tapping on all PRESTO devices and provides the TTC with better customer journey data. [p 6]
It will be interesting to see how long it takes the TTC to make use of the vast amount of customer journey data they will have.
Metropass Discount Plan (MDP) and Volume Incentive Program (VIP) on Presto
For MDP users, the cost of a “pass” would be billed at the start of each month at the rate appropriate for their fare type. The TTC also plans to merge the VIP and MDP plans, possibly into a common fare level.
Not explained in the report is how pass resales under the VIP plan would be handled. In this plan, a business or institution buys a block of passes and then resells them, possibly at a subsidized discount, to staff or students.
For Study in the 2018 Budget
Peak/Off-Peak Pricing
Different fares would be charged depending on the time of a rider’s trip. An issue for Toronto is that unlike many cities, it does not have low off-peak demand and surplus capacity that can absorb time-shifted riders across the system. There is also a potential “equity” issue among riders on two counts:
- Riders who make short trips do not have to adjust their travel time by as great a degree to avoid the peak period as those who make long journeys.
- It is unclear how one would establish who “deserves” to get a cheaper fare because they can shift their commute, or be penalized because they don’t have that option.
For Further Study
Single-Ride Presto Cards for Cash Customers
One ride cards would be available from fare vending machines and, possibly, from third-party vendors. This raises a few issues:
- Why restrict the sale to a single ride card?
- Will third-party vendors have any inventive to stock these cards when all other TTC media disappear?
One part of the problem here is the high price charged for a “real” Presto card ($6). By contrast, a limited-term use card costs only $1 in New York.
This is not just an issue for riders wanting to purchase fares, but for agencies that give out free TTC tickets and tokens.
Elimination of Cash Fares on Buses (and Older Streetcars)
This policy encourages migration to PRESTO and reduces cash handling costs, however it creates an inconsistent and less convenient journey for customers starting their trip on a bus and paying with cash. To mitigate these issues, contactless payment by debit and credit (open payments), and an extensive PRESTO third party retail network would need to be available to ensure customers can purchase a limited use PRESTO card or load value to a standard PRESTO card. Some transit agencies worldwide are moving towards similar policies e.g. Transport for London, as the relative cost of handling cash increases. Note: This option will also apply to legacy streetcars while they continue to operate. [p 7]
At this point, this is only a proposal, but it begs the issue of availability of fare vending machines throughout the system to accept cash, and the degree to which riders would use other media via open payments. Note that for debit/credit payments there is no mechanism for issuing a fare receipt.
Loyalty Program Options
One option the TTC will study is whether the MDP and VIP options should simply be discontinued and the “Metropass” established as one fare level.
Not discussed in the report is the concept of moving to weekly or monthly capped fares (as for the daily fare discussed above). If a Presto card never charged more than the equivalent of a monthly pass, then the actual concept of a “pass” has less meaning unless the discount for long-term subscription (MDP or VIP) stays in place.
No Further Study At This Time
Two-Hour Time Based Transfers
The TTC recognizes that time based transfers would simplify travel and fare rules, but continues to drag its feet on actual implementation. The estimated $20m annual cost is no doubt a factor here, but the tradeoff for simplicity is lost in the shuffle. Now that we have eliminated children’s fares, and frozen other fare classes for 2016, some eager politician will embrace time based transfers as a sweetener for the 2017 budget.
While introducing a 2 hour time-based transfer is still considered a worthwhile service improvement that would reduce complexity and make the TTC consistent with other transit agencies within the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area, the ongoing Integration work, led by Metrolinx, may propose changes to transfer rules. That being the case, it is recommended that further analysis or implementation should follow the completion of the Fare Integration work if required. [pp2-3]
…
A two hour time-based transfer can be difficult to manage if there are service delays that affect the transfer window and would cost the TTC an estimated ($20M) in lost revenue from multiple trips made within the two-hour window. This policy however, would make it easier for customers to complete short trips such as getting groceries or going to lunch using transit and create a simpler, easy to understand transfer policy. [p 7]
Is TTC surrendering what would be potentially a very popular fare type to the machinations of Metrolinx who are not known to be sensitive to the needs of urban riders? We don’t know because Metrolinx’ intentions are unknown.
As for delays and the two-hour window, the real question is the amount of travel most riders could expect to make for a single fare. Where time-based transfers are already in use, its benefits appear to outweigh the circumstances in which someone runs “over time”. A related issue here is the “tap out” and whether a journey must be completed within two hours, or only completed to the point of the last “tap in”.
All-Door Boarding on Buses
Despite the benefits of all-door boarding, especially on articulated buses, the TTC does not plan to implement this operation on its bus network except for limited locations with rear door loaders/fare inspectors as at present. Essentially, the TTC position is that it would cost too much to deploy fare enforcement across the bus network, and the potential for fare abuse is too high. All-door loading will only be used on the streetcar system.
Fare by Distance or Zones
The TTC recognizes that a zone or distance based system creates operational headaches:
Customers who use the system for shorter journeys would pay less overall, however this is only true when the initial fare can be reduced, which would have major financial impacts on TTC. Another essential factor is the reliance on customers tapping in and tapping out of both stations and surface vehicles; the latter would have significant negative impacts on dwell times for surface vehicles and may be difficult to enforce without creating major bottlenecks in the system or significantly changing customer behaviors. [p 8]
A Metrolinx analysis of “an integrated distance/zone based system” for publication in 2016. This is no surprise, but the real question is whether Metrolinx will force this option down everyone’s throat to match their own preferences, or leave well enough alone for “local” travel.
Cash POP Receipts on Buses (and Older Streetcars)
The TTC has no intention of providing fare receipts to those who pay cash on buses or the older streetcars. Once transfers are discontinued, they will have no way to avoid paying a double fare when transferring to another route except where a free transfer connection (i.e. within a station) is provided. This is pitched by management as a way to encourage migration to Presto. However, a year’s operation where a fare receipt (a transfer) is available will establish this as “the way things work”, and will be a hard sell when this facility disappears in 2017.
Addressing the Needs of Disadvantaged Groups
This issue will be addressed in a separate report in 2016:
As per the report received by the Board at its November 18, 2013 meeting; it is beyond the mandate and expertise of the TTC to effectively resolve broader social and community issues related to income distribution. In July 2014, City Council directed staff from various City departments to work together to prepare a Transit Fare Equity plan to make the TTC more affordable for low-income Torontonians. This will complement ongoing transit expansion throughout Toronto. The TFE plan is due at the end of Q1 2016, and will include eligibility criteria, costs, and options for pursuing funding partnerships.[p 5]
Steve Munro 
Perhaps they touched on it in the staff report, but it didn’t make it here, but they missed the best reason for 2 hour transfers. The ability to hop off en-route to grab something quickly.
That is, your standard home to work or work to home commute won’t a stopover at your favorite grocery store or deli or bakery or whatever. That’s the real gain for customers. The fact that you can’t do this right now without paying a full second fare is infuriating.
Steve: Yes. But TTC doesn’t want to lose that $20m in revenue. Costs always trump convenience.
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There are three things that I wanted to comment about in that report.
1. Presumably, the move to Presto could, at least in theory, allow for 7-day and 30-day passes that aren’t tied to calendar weeks and months. That would be helpful to many customers, much like how Metrocard works in New York.
2. Suburban transit agencies have gotten rid of paper tickets and passes, replacing them with Presto, but still accept cash fares and issue transfers. Even GO buses still allow one-way cash fares, though GO is trying to discourage it. I don’t see the point of going away from cash fares.
3. The tap on/tap off on the subway finally answers my main question about how GO, YRT, and Brampton Züm riders were going to access York University now that they were going to be dumped at Highway 407 and required to transfer to the subway. It does allow for “fare by distance” in the future in accordance with Metrolinx ‘s ideas that a premium is appropriate for rapid transit.
4. Finally, I’m very disappointed with the TTC’s reluctance to implement time-based transfers. Adapting Presto to the TTC’s archaic fare system is going to troublesome. I mentioned some of the issues, like changing vehicles due to a short-turn, on my blog.
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Recently, I tried to use Presto on one of the new streetcars and all the Presto readers on the car were down. I was advised by TTCHelps that I would have to pay cash/token fare instead. Hopefully, this is not the TTC’s plan for legacy streetcars on King.
Steve: They are supposed to all have working Presto readers for the launch next week. Then of course there are the King buses that won’t have readers at all. Why the TTC is unable to equip a small set of buses that would be dedicated to service on the streetcar routes (including the night routes like St. Clair) is a mystery, but far too typical.
This is, I believe, called “Project Management” in some circles.
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1. Are there any numbers forecasted for the number of trips that aren’t being taken now precisely because the transfer system isn’t time-based? Is that baked into the estimated revenue loss? The network becomes much more attractive to use if you can double-back or interrupt a trip briefly.
Steve: No. I also suspect there is a lot of very creative cheating on transfers. I know that before passes were introduced, I was a master at maximizing the distance/time I could ride for one fare.
2. Is the need for all the tapping on and off going to significantly affect the speed of passenger flow? I know that it works in many other transit systems but I wonder if the TTC is ready for any significant slowdowns and bottlenecks during the multi-year transition.
Steve: If they confine tap offs to subway exits, they should be ok as the fare gates will have readers on both sides. This will mean that there are lots of paths out of the station for those leaving by that route. It will probably be trickier getting people to tap on to surface vehicles at subway connections where people are used to just walking on today. Furthermore, this would only be done leaving the subway, not entering it, just to confuse riders more. I really don’t think this has been well thought-through.
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There is nothing wrong with tapping on and off. People have smartphones in their hands already. Tapping only takes a few seconds. The problem with buses is that people in Toronto are used to get off buses using both doors. In Japan, the IC card readers are located at both doors. However, passengers must exit through one door only (usually front). The other door is for boarding only. This will require a behavior change. However, at larger stations, people can exit using both doors. But an attendant will need to force disembarking passengers to tap off at that point.
Tap off is required anyways as TTC operates buses into other jurisdictions. The 52 bus needs to know that the person has crossed the airport and entered into MT territory. When the person taps off, it needs to apply the 2 hour MT transfer rules. Tapping off would also be useful when connecting to GO. When the co fare is in place, it would be a lot cheaper to take the TTC to a GO station or vice versa.
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Benny brings up a good point about TTC routes operating outside of its territory: will Presto recognize both the TTC and the YRT or Mississauga Transit fare policies? Of course, when the Spadina subway opens in 2017, YRT will take over several contracted TTC routes, but there will still be a few routes in Markham and a branch of the 52 Lawrence operating into Malton.
Like the potential problem of Presto charging users twice when making perfectly legitimate changes between vehicles (i.e. short-turns), these will have to be addressed.
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Benny said: here is nothing wrong with tapping on and off. People have smartphones in their hands already. Tapping only takes a few seconds.
Right, so lets say 3 seconds…and 50 people want to get on or off…we are now waiting for 3 minutes…every second counts…the goal should be to minimize the number of taps across the whole system, not maximize them…
People with passes (daily, weekly, monthly) should not have to tap…anywhere…
People with “go-style” maxed out daily, weekly or monthly rides should not have to tap once they hit the max for that period…
People transferring should not have to tap in or out…(2 hour transfer from start of trip)
People coming across a border should not have to pay more…it just complicates stuff…
People on express vehicles should not have to tap if they are transferring off an express vehicle, but should have to if they are transferring onto an express vehicle (or we should simplify it and make express vehicles the same price as it complicates things)
If you have purchased a ticket at a surface presto machine, online, via mobile, from a store – you should not have to tap – the two hours starts from when you buy it (add 20 minutes grace to store bought)…
There should be express entrances at all subways and rear door boarding for all surface vehicles for people that don’t need to tap…if you don’t need to tap and you do – the machine should buzz and say – “stop wasting everyone’s time” – very quickly…
The majority of time should be spent moving people, not collecting money – especially from people who have already paid…
Steve: But look at all that “data” about passenger movement you are missing! That is the BS argument for a lot of the tapping that they want to happen.
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Maybe I didn’t read this carefully enough, but how will somebody paying cash on a bus and transferring to subway “tap off” when they exit the subway through these new fare gates? I.e. how do you get the gate to open if you don’t have Presto?
Steve: That is one of the many problems with cash fares that the TTC has not yet figured out. Unless there is a mechanism to issue a machine-readable fare receipt, tap out is a challenge. Meanwhile, tap in is also a problem at stations like Dufferin where there will be large volumes of surface-to-subway transfers.
In this whole exercise, the problem, and something the TTC is notoriously bad at, will be finding and dealing with all of the “special” cases where their broad policy produces troublesome results.
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A lot of transit systems around the world use tap on and tap off, especially on rapid transit, and it does not seem to cause any delays once people get used to it. It certainly would not take 3 seconds per transaction. With RFID cards a lot of people never take the card out of the wallet or purse but just bump the reader on the way out. Once people get used to the idea there will be minimum induced delay.
The question is how will the TTC force riders to tap off on buses outside of the 416?
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About tapping off. I agree that this is BS, the data collected is from a transit planning perspective garbage.
While I would not discount the thought that uninformed management and politicians think they will be able to do something with the data, let’s not forget that several Canadian police chiefs have been encouraging (demanding?) for years that transit systems use RFID enabled fare media so that they could track individuals and also use the transit authority’s own IT systems to track said individuals. So don’t expect sub 2 second response on the reader because of that.
And that really is the motivation about tapping off. The rest is just cream on top (distance-based fares anyone?) for management and politicians.
I am astounded at the amount of energy that governments and also citizens have to spend on all things regarding fares. Let’s pay for this out of general revenues. Canada has never been this prosperous, it’s just that prosperity is not well shared.
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There are a few ways the TTC can handle cash fare. Of course, it will cost money, but in the long run, it will be positive.
1. Install machines on every bus and tram that would spit out a receipt when someone drops cash. The receipt would have a QR code (like boarding passes). The gates at the metro stations will have a QR scanner and customer would simply hold receipt against the scanner. This takes time as the customer would have to align the receipt and the QR code to the scanner. The pro is that it will be cheaper since receipt printers are cheap.
2. Install machines on every bus and tram that uses a magnetically backed paper. it is easier to feed that paper into the gates at the metro station. Magnetically encoded paper is less sensitive to orientation like a barcode would. The cost would be higher.
Getting people to go with IC cards should not be hard. Especially since it is cheaper to handle. If a Presto ride is cheaper, why pay cash in the first place? The $6 for a Presto card is not a financial burden and it is refundable. All Metrolinx has to do is to setup counters at YYZ to process the refunds when tourists leave.
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While I agree with Robert Wightman that many transit systems require both tap on and tap off, I suspect few (if any) have the (rather useful!) TTC practice of having surface vehicles entering the fare paid area of subway stations. I think it will be ‘challenging’ to get people to tap in on a bus and again, a couple of minutes later, tap in to get into the subway – many will think they are going to be charged another fare. (Quite apart from need to reorganise many stations to have transferring surface passengers enter through the main (pedestrian) entrance or have two sets of gates!). Of course, this would not be a problem if they had ‘timed transfers’!.
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I picked up a Presto card as I was taking several business trips – and it was the cheapest way to use UP (and fastest way to get to the airport, for me). Since then I’ve been using a combination of Presto at Dundas West and tokens on the 504 for my daily commute.
Now that they’ve put a Presto payment machine in Dundas West station (used to have to top up at Bloor station) – the system is slightly less sub-optimal, but as Presto rolls out system wide, I’ll need to top up my tokens less and less. These growing pains will disappear for the most part with full system rollout.
I’ve mentioned before that tap/swipe on, tap/swipe off is pretty much the standard I’ve encountered where I’ve been using transit in the last 5 years (Amsterdam, Rotterdam/Den Hagg, Utrecht, NY, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane), and tap off takes at most a second (and usually gives your balance while saying goodbye/Tot Zeins).
In pretty much every jurisdiction the option of cash fare meant buying a paper ticket with mag strip for a reader, or a paper RFID enabled ticket good for a duration or loaded with an amount. The only pace I saw lines for tap off was Sydney during rush hour, and that was caused primarily with their cash fare tickets taking time to read and update using a system similar to most stack parking lot paper cards with mag strips.
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A large number of systems do this at their ticket dispensing machines. They can issue a single trip ride, a multi trip ride, a pass and some, New Orleans, will encode you change on it if you don’t have correct change when you buy a ticket. You feed it into the machine and it gives you credit for the left over change. Many will not accept a pure cash fare but require that you buy a single ride ticket dispenser. This is especially true in a system where you have to tap on and tap off. At these machine you really start to be thankful that Canada got rid of $1 and $2 dollar bills. Trying to feed these into a fare machine can be very frustrating.
Some systems in France charge you 0.25 Euros for the card board medium on which you encode you fare(s) or pass. If you re-use it you do not repay the 0.35 There are many ways of handling this that the TTC, or Presto probably, has not looked at. If they don’t give you a transfer for a cash fare how do you prove that you have paid if the fare police check you?
In Chicago all pharmacies and probably convenience stores used to sell you a 1, 3 or 5 day magnetic encoded cardboard pass. The time starts with you first tap on and is good for 24 hrs. If your first use is 9:42 a.m. Tuesday it is good to 9:41 a.m. Wednesday. I believe that Chicago is or has switched to a new fare medium.
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I generally like the direction the TTC is going with this. It seems to be in line with the standards of most new and upgraded rapid transit systems in the world. I’ve used tap-on/tap-off in many places, and there has never been any issues with it that I’ve seen.
For non-presto fares, I think we should just go with ticket-vending machines that give paper RFID cards for single fare, maybe some multiple fares, and/or day passes. That way it’s compatible with all presto readers, so we wouldn’t need any new infrastructure. I’ve seen this in several places, such as Amsterdam, where you get a small RFID ticket for an hour of transit use, for a Euro, or a day pass for several Euros (can’t remember the amounts).
On a more eco-friendly side, I thought the Shanghai system was innovative. The ticket machine gives you a big blue token, about the size of a toonie, but a few times thicker. You tap the token to enter the subway, then insert it into the fare-gate to exit (so it’s reusable). It is a bit bulky to carry around. As it’s a distance-based system, you select your destination station when you buy the token. If you go to a station with a different fare, then you can top up the token at fare-adjustment machines in order to exit.
Steve: I think that a basic problem here is that the TTC and/or Presto are trying to avoid having fare vending machines all over the city as a way of dealing with cash fares.
As for “tap off” issues, there are a few basic design issues. First, would one reader per exit (especially at double stream exits) be enough to efficiently process a large volume of riders? Second, there are many locations where riders transfer between surface and subway routes in a barrier-free environment that would be difficult to retrofit to recognize the change of vehicle. There simply isn’t the space in some locations, and the geometry of some stations would make defining the “subway” and the “surface” fare zone challenging, particularly if the “subway” zone began right at the street entrance.
In this context, some of the claims made for tape in/out requirements fall apart because so many transfer movements would not be recorded and, at best, would have to be inferred from taps elsewhere in someone’s journey. For example, if I rode a bus into a subway station, there would be a “tap off” to leave the bus, but no “tap in” to the subway. Only by a tap off, eventually, at another station (or a tap in to another bus) would the system be aware of the subway leg of the journey. There is even the wrinkle that one would tap off of the bus, only to be faced by another tap off to get out of the subway station to the street.
All of this would be so much simpler with a time-based fare of, say, two hours, rather than a complex table attempting to know which “transfers” were valid. Given the TTC’s inability to manage technology (NextBus interface is a good example), I am quite sure that they would miss various ad hoc route changes, let alone the emergency situations that force connections to occur in non-standard locations.
When people point to how well tap in/tap out works elsewhere, it is important to also look at how the fare structure works and how the passenger flow between routes is set up to support the fare structure. TTC seems to be taking the worst possible route talking about new fare gates in the subway as if this is the only problem they face, but retaining a complex set of transfer rules that will guarantee implementation problems. Moreover, they seem unwilling to acknowledge where this may lead in terms of passenger convenience and acceptance of the new system.
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I’m lost… why do you think this would happen? If it’s a proof-of-payment system, then cash users must get a receipt. Otherwise, they have no proof they’ve paid. That receipt is then the transfer.
Steve: But if the only “entrance” is a gate that reads the fare receipt, and the cash receipts are not machine readable, then the rider cannot enter the station, let alone leave if the bus which issued the receipt took them into a paid area and “tap off” was the standard for that location. You presume that TTC fare receipts can be read by a gate/turnstile, but reading their report, they won’t be.
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So Presto will be available on all streetcar routes by December 14?
Steve: That is the claim, although I was on a car on Spadina two days ago where someone could not pay with Presto because it did not have a reader installed yet.
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They can do this all over the world. It’s amazing that it’s taken us so long to admit this. Then again, Metrolinx needs to do this too. However, the day pass should remain for tourists who may not really need a PRESTO card.
Steve: There is a problem in that the fare gates will not be able to read the paper version of a day pass. Don’t assume that there is a human assistant just waiting for someone to show up so they can open the gate manually. Unless the day pass is sold in some sort of machine-readable format, a paper pass won’t work. There is the related problem of multi-person travel on weekends and holidays.
The solution is so simple, it’s stupid: KEEP PAPER TRANSFERS! As the old saying goes, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Other systems still have paper transfers for non-PRESTO users, so why won’t the TTC do the same? Oh yeah, that would make too much sense for the TTC!
Steve: As I said, if the paper transfer cannot be read by a turnstile, don’t assume there is a human to do it for them. Collectors will disappear, and eventually the subway stations will be not just tap in but also tap out. You will need a machine-readable “transfer” in such cases.
That makes sense and many other agencies have gone in that direction because it falls under “Customer Service” and supports people using transit more. Does the $20 million the gross cost, or the net cost – what I mean is, for example, there are times when I won’t use TTC because I’d have to pay two fares within two hours (so I do a long walk instead, or use a car, etc.), but with a two hour ‘go anywhere’ transfer, I might make more trips on the TTC, so are the extra fares this will generate factored into the $20 million? Personally, I doubt it.
Amen to that!
Why? Unless the TTC is going to a fare zone, or distance based fare system, this is a useless system and a waste of money to design and implement. Only the stops in York Region might require a tap-off – and only then in order to charge for the second fare. For trips from York Region, either the option you pointed out would work, or the PRESTO card readers in York Region could simply charge the double fare (a computer can be programmed to do anything the TTC wants.) And if the person gets off in York Region, the tap off machines would give a fare back.
Steve: Remember this is the TTC we are talking about here. They come with a new rationale for tap out everywhere on the subway with each report. At one point, the justification was to enable some form of zones and/or premium fare for the subway system. Quite bluntly, there are people at TTC and especially at Metrolinx working on this who should be pensioned off. The TTC is going to spend tens of millions on new fare gates just so that they can have tap off capability, and this was not part of the original Presto implementation scheme.
Also, there in no reason why cash and tokens cannot remain as ways of paying for fares. Both are options, and do not need to be eliminated at all. Although, New York’s $1 option, unlike paying $6 for a PRESTO a tourist may only use on one trip in their life, is ridiculous.
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The CEO report for the TTC for December says the go live date for Presto is tentatively set fo December 17. Elsewhere it says all the legacy cars will be enabled prior to the end of 2015.
I’d assume that those that are installed will go live by December 17; but not all will be installed though. Though cars without Presto are becoming increasingly infrequent.
I did notice a 504 go past me today, where the Presto unit was flashing green rather than the usual solid red. Not sure what that means.
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I find what has happened in London fascinating. The usage rate of Oyster cards, and the proliferation of Contactless bank cards (Paywave, PayPass etc) meant that last year the buses went completely cash free. You now cannot pay for a bus fare with cash.
I’ve heard nearly no complaints about it from friends or relatives. Surprising? Or simply just the modern era, eh?
I’m expecting Toronto to implement this policy in the late 2050s. (Sorry – that’s a low blow)
Steve: The issue with no cash fares is the claim that there are “unbanked” people, the very poor who do not have any kind of banking service. What is needed for them, of course, is the ability to purchase fare media from vending machines (or variety stores, etc) by paying cash. There really needs to be a much better distribution system for fare media, including Presto cards, that recognizes the fact that there are (a) far more TTC users (and casual users) than on GO, and (b) everybody isn’t going through a handful of locations where Presto cards are easy to sell.
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Okay, I admit it, I’m lost. If I have a Presto card and I get on the 510 car at Spadina station and then transfer to the 504 car at King and Spadina to get to Broadview station, what is my POP? It’s encoded in my Presto card? Okay, so how is that encoded POP read by the fare inspector?
Steve: With a portable Presto card reader that can see what type of fare(s) your card is carrying at the time.
By the way, Steve, you have a typo: “Is TTC is surrendering…”. 🙂
Steve: Fixed, thanks!
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Great comments by all on this post. Cannot believe the slow haphazard roll out of Presto. Doesn’t matter how large the fleet is, there are no alternatives to install readers first then switch it on.
It really hits me that Metrolinx is really about GO and is stuck in that mindset. Horrible really. It explains why they think people can get the Presto card at a few locations or through mail-order.
For paper transfers I understand what you mean Steve, but cannot stop thinking that we are going backwards. When the Montreal Metro opened and until a few years ago, each bus had a machine that would print and punch a small piece of stiff paper (cardboard) which would be easily accepted by the turnstile at at the station. You could use in buses as well.
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This is not entirely true. It’s just that GO is a much bigger deal outside Toronto. In Mississauga for example GO transit and Miway run virtually side by side. A better example would be Durham Region where a person can either take DRT or GO transit to get to their destinations. There is virtually no way to do that in Toronto.
Earlier this year for example, my Grandmother had to head from Pickering to Ajax for a doctor’s appointment along Highway 2. Rather than take the DRT bus at the cheaper fare, she ended up taking the GO bus from the same stop to let her off close to the doctors office.
I personally loaded up my Presto Card at Square One earlier this week watching GO buses, Miway and Zum intermingle. You can also get a Presto Card from there I believe.
GO is the core of what Metrolinx does. While it may not seem like a big deal to those in Toronto, it is for those who live outside of the 6ix. There is a reason they focus on the GO side of things and that reason is sheer size. By comparison, Metrolinx has a larger network than Toronto and quite honestly they need to focus on the big picture as opposed to the local one. Toronto is one piece of a much larger puzzle and if you look at their system map, Toronto is a very small piece.
While right now you can only get Presto cards from certain locations no doubt that will change in the future like it did with Miway. It’s just nobody uses Presto in Toronto right now so why bother investing an insane amount of money into it at the present time?
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Presto card readers on many old streetcars are still not working and so I am going to insist on paying by Presto as is my right from Monday on any streetcar and obtain a regular transfer (if presto machine does not print one), essentially riding for free. The driver will not be able to kick me out for not paying using any conventional methods and he/she can call enforcement if he/she likes because I will make sure that there is at least enough money for a single ride on my Presto card at all times. Also I have been riding free at some of the stations (as have been hundreds of other people ever now and then) because the Presto readers are not working and all Presto card holders have had to do is to show that they have a card. How many billions of dollars have been spent on Presto and sill not working? If you look at the overall cost of fare collection (collectors, enforcement, pensions, salaries, benefits, tokens, many kinds of passes, tickets, turnstiles, presto card development, etc), we would have been much better off with “free” transit (i.e. 100% taxpayer funded) and that would also be a much faster transit system (no lines for tickets/tokens/passes/etc, no time wasted buying and loading your card, etc). Also a fare-free transit system would also result in a much better environment from reduced pollution which would result in taxpayer savings on healthcare and increased life expectancies. Hundreds of billions of dollars (2015 dollars) have been wasted on the costs of fare collection in Canada alone in the last 100 years.
Steve: Presto is not supposed to be officially “on” on streetcars until December 17.
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Tapping out on the subway is a good way to prevent fare evasion with the POP system. It’ll be relatively easy to get into the system for free via a POP streetcar, but it will be harder to actually exit the subway without paying.
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One question that comes to mind is why the TTC hasn’t installed the ticket machines on the rebuilt ALRV’s to match the arrangement on the Flexitys. The intention is to rebuild 30-40 of them and keep them to 2025 and that’s a long time to have them around in a Presto environment without the machines.
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Oh, it will take a mere three seconds for TTC riders to tap on and tap off?
What about the people I encounter all-too-frequently who get to a turnstile and then stand, blocking the way, while they rummage in their purses, or multiple pockets, for their Metropass, then put everything back in the purse, or several pockets, swipe the Metropass, and finally proceed through the turnstile. They’ll now have the opportunity to do this both when entering AND leaving a station or vehicle. Not sure what the lineup behind these disorganized souls will be doing in the meantime . . .
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That’s great – until now we have only had to line up to pay and now let’s line up to also exit. The whole point of POP is to make transit faster and lining up just to exit the system defeats the purpose. What if there is a fire or some other life threatening emergency? How do we get out fast then as we have to look for our cards and then everyone heads to the turnstiles and there can be stampedes on top of the existing threat. What is someone loses their card? How do they exit then? There are a lot of people who lose a lot of things on the TTC (there are several full time people working in just the Lost and Found office alone) and how does one exit with a lost card? Also since the collectors will be gone, a lot of people would just physically jump the turnstiles as they already do when the collector is busy or not looking or otherwise absent.
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What do you show the rent-a-cops? I presume this will be a POP route so they could check you at any time and I’ve seen them a few times checking at union loop so no free transfer for you off the 510.
Steve: POP is only on the streetcar routes. TTC has not thought this out very well.
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@Free Transit Now,
Let’s get taxpayers to cover the needed capital costs before dickering with the small stuff. While it might be faster to get into a subway station without fares, there are plenty of downsides to no-pay transit, like becoming de facto homeless shelters and increased crowding. Those collectors would need to be bought out and we’d still have to pay their pensions. If you are having people switch from walking/biking to buses, it’s not going to be an environmental improvement.
@Safety First,
The current turnstiles are to be replaced with gates, which would open and remain open in the case of a fire. Collectors will be transitioned into “roving” station managers. They would be the ones that help people that lose their Presto card between point A and point B.
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@Safety First
Tapping out is not something that is new. It happens all over the world on lots of transit systems and does not result in Armageddon. The London Underground and Washington subway require tap out at fare gates and it does not result in catastrophic delays to systems. The Ontario Fire Marshall would not let a system be built that prevented people from exiting a building quickly in case of a fire.
If someone loses their card then they have to buy an exit card or a replacement card. The same thing happens if you do not have enough value on your card and are in a fare by distance system.
In Chicago and Washington there are no fare collectors, rather there are station managers who wander around the station. If you want to board and do not have a prepaid fare medium then you have to feed coins, bills or credit/debit cards into a machine to get a ticket which you then feed into the fare gate. There is nothing as frustrating as standing behind some moron trying to feed an old US $1.00 bill into a machine.
@Deborah McFarlen
I don’t know if we have smarter people in Brampton than Toronto but the majority of riders out here carry their Presto card in a folder that hangs around their neck. They take it off to tap on and then put it back around their neck.
@Free Transit Now
Nothing is free, someone has to pay for it. If there is no cost for transit then it will get abused as Mapleson points out. I don’t think that even the communist countries had free transit.
While you may say; “Hundreds of billions of dollars (2015 dollars) have been wasted on the costs of fare collection in Canada alone in the last 100 years.” it pays a good hunk of the cost of running the system. Who would make up for the lost revenue? We would still pay, just in a different form.
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@Robert Wightman,
Tallinn (capital of Estonia) has free transit (for residents) for the time being. However, it’s a pretty unique situation: 439,286 city population, 542,983 metro population, and 1,313,271 national population; GDP per capita is 172% the national average. There are 64 bus lines, 4 tram lines, and 7 trolley-bus lines; GDP to debt is at a 10-year high of 10.6% (2007 only had 3.7%); Estonia has a flat tax rate, but provided many social refunds to the lower income citizens; the government already covered over 90% of operational costs; non-residents were a large minority around 30% of fares paid; and, fares are still collected for non-residents.
Of course now that Estonia is having budgetary issues (not running surpluses) it’ll be a good test to see how long this experiment lasts.
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No doubt it is slow now. That’s why people are advocating to speed it up. All door loading. On street payment machines. Barrier free entry and exit. These are all things that speed up the system. Seconds when multiplied across the entire system matter. Efficiency will reduce costs more than expensive turnstiles and making sure multiple times that someone has paid.
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@Mapleson
I knew one of the Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia had free transit but couldn’t remember which one. I also heard that it might be living on borrowed time with financial troubles for the government. Thanks for the update.
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Lost in all of this is the question of the street side fare machines like those on Spadina. Is the TTC going to continue deploying those at busy stops on the streetcar system as per the original implementation plan? How does that fit in with this plan and its various facets?
Steve: They were supposed to be doing this, but I have yet to see evidence of the program.
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Happened to me last month got off at Ex Go caught Dufferin Bus at CNE. Had Presto and Metropass. Exit at Bloor and want to go west and and waiting for shuttle bus as subway not running. Cannot find both cards. Never turned in to TTC lost and found and presto not used. Lost Metropass and Presto somewhere on the Dufferin Bus.
Reminds me of a Bill Murry Movie.
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A review of systems throughout the English-speaking world was done by a fellow at Seattle Transit Blog. The price of the Presto card seems to be the highest in the entire world. The Seattle ORCA card is $5, and the result is that over half the riders refuse to get an ORCA card.
The median price for a transit smartcard? $0. Other popular prices are “$1, but refundable when the card is turned in”, and “$0, but you must put a $5 minimum in fare value on the card” (in other words, you get $5 of travel for your $5, you aren’t just buying a card).
TTC management should be told that they are completely out of line with world best practices. Nobody charges a $6 “issuing fee” except them. They shouldn’t either, because it’s a good way to make sure that people will avoid Presto.
Steve: It is Presto who charge the $6 fee, not the TTC, and it is Presto who are out of line with the rest of the world.
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Buried in the CEO’s report for tomorrow’s TTC meeting is the tidbit
Steve: This implies a gradual installation on routes as they convert to the new cars, rather than a “big bang”. I will ask at the meeting to see what the plans really are.
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@Nathanael, beware those with an axe to grind or in a different country. The Oyster card in London (UK) is £3 plus postage, which is C$6.24. Vancouver’s Compass card is a $6 refundable deposit. Seattle’s ORCA card is $5, but American, so that’s C$6.86. What selection criteria did they use to winnow wide-spread use cards from rural villages that have to underwrite almost all transit costs anyway?
I’m not saying I agree with the $6 charge, but you have to look at the whole picture. For example, does it keep the processing fees charged to local transit authorities lower, and subsequently our fares?
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I had a clarification on tapping on and off last night from Chris Upfold (who seems to work very long hours!).
If I understand correctly …
Steve: This whole scheme, after 60 years of transfers between subway and surface vehicles within stations having no barrier or fare control at all, will confuse the hell out of riders, I am sure. It is a ridiculous over-complication.
The fact that they will not get “tap in” data for people entering the subway from a surface vehicle in this situation shows that it is not strictly needed for whatever fare calculation or trip validation they might use.
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