The Ontario government has announced that it will fund 100% of the proposed Hurontario-Main LRT line, although they would happily receive contributions from other partners such as the Federal government should it be so inclined.
If the Hurontario-Main project proceeds as expected, detailed design will get underway soon, construction will begin in 2018, and revenue service would start in 2022. Whether there might be staging options for the route would likely come out of the detailed design work. The line has its challenges and intriguing design choices including side-of-the-road running and mixed streetcar-like operation where road space is scarce. Will the province champion this project over local objections, or does this line face years of carping about the “St. Clair disaster” and other fictional effects of LRT?
The Transit Project Assessment for this route was approved in August 2014, but the debate remained on who would pay the estimated $1.6-billion cost. Ontario is already funding 100% of the Eglinton-Crosstown project in Toronto, and a chorus of “me too” understandably arose in Mississauga and Brampton.
A provincial commitment at this level raises obvious questions about and comparisons to the stillborn Toronto projects on Sheppard, Finch and the Scarborough RT replacement. These lines are all but dead thanks to a lack of provincial leadership on LRT not to mention the vote-buying embrace of the Scarborough subway option. If that subway proves too rich for Toronto (or for an increased provincial contribution), the LRT scheme might reappear, but that’s a very long shot. As for Finch West, as an isolated route it could have trouble finding a political market unless it is extended beyond the originally proposed Humber College terminal.
Another obvious question is the future of LRT proposals elsewhere that have only partial provincial funding, or no money at all. Has 100% provincial funding become the new standard and goal for transit expansion in the GTHA? How will this affect planning for other routes, not to mention the substantial demands for better local transit operations to feed expanding regional networks? Queen’s Park still appears to be making up policy as it goes along, and refusing to engage in the larger question of how all of the transit we need will be paid for.
Steve Munro 
Are the Sheppard and Finch projects dead? Executive seemed like they were supporting them just last month, and the master agreement is still in effect. Shouldn’t they be proceeding later this year?
They may not have had funding, but at least Mississauga and Brampton (especially Mississauga) had city leaders who unequivocally supported LRT as a technology. Torontonians are right to be upset about not getting their fair share of funding, but if our municipal government had spent less time bickering about what to build, we’d have a host of LRT lines from provincial funding already completed or in progress.
Steve: Queen’s Park has had ample opportunity to talk of Finch and Sheppard as live projects, but has studiously avoided doing so. There is a big problem with the Scarborough Liberal caucus who are all pro-subway, and the LRT proposals for that part of the world won’t get anywhere as long as the subway dominates the discussion. Don’t forget that we are likely to see a push to “close the loop” and through route the SSE with the Sheppard subway. As for Finch, it really does not make sense all alone and with no local Council support. Meanwhile, Mayor Tory is so in love with his own deeply flawed “Smart”Track plan that he can’t talk about anything else, and he doesn’t want to reopen the can of worms that is the Scarborough subway debate. “Leadership” is lacking at both levels of government.
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Metro Vancouver is getting jealous.
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Steve – what do you mean by Sheppard and Finch being all-but-dead?
Steve: See my previous reply.
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I am pretty sure that most of the politicians in Mississauga and Brampton support the Hurontario LRT, and it will get built with little opposition. I strongly suspect that the Sheppard/Finch LRT lines are dead because they are unpopular (particularly Sheppard, since plans that force people to transfer from an existing subway to LRT are not popular). Funding the Hurontario LRT is a convenient way to use up excess LRVs ordered from Bombardier so that Metrolinx doesn’t have to pay cancellation penalties. The Hurontario LRT is about the same length as the combined Finch and Sheppard LRTs. The remaining LRVs from the Scarborough LRT might go to Hamilton, Cambridge or a western extension of Eglinton perhaps.
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While I think the GTA is so far behind in transit development it needs to do much more than funding from a property tax base should bear (even for 1/3), I really hope that this is only a temporary approach, to dig Toronto out of its hole.
Having said that, QP needs to put its foot down. As a provincial taxpayer (and federal), I have no issue strongly supporting transit that is appropriate, but things like a subway extension into Richmond Hill, (or Vaughan for that matter) makes my blood boil. This is profligate spending at its worst. Yes Toronto needs some subway capacity expansion, and improved linkages, but subway should only be supported where there are not other reasonable alternatives. Vaughan did not qualify, nor does Richmond Hill (nor does Mississauga).
LRT makes a great deal of sense in this application. I find the side of road application interesting, with pros and cons, aids access for pedestrians, however, not really sure I understand how it will interact with traffic crossing it.
I really hope that the federal government will come to the table as well, however, the province needs to make clear that we will not fund whatever, we will fund only those projects that will do the most with the least to best address the overall requirements, the required transit can reasonably be afforded, as long as we stop building transit for ego, and BS equality, and start building it to serve riders and the community.
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As imperfect as Metrolinx is — it seems Metrolinx is trying to speed things up where TTC and Toronto City Hall is having difficulties, it is quickly gaining a better track record than TTC in getting projects started. Some of the projects are controversial (UPX), but we did get GO service expansions and the shovels in ground for ECLRT, plus introduction of Presto (now works reasonably well after the initial fiascos). Even past precedent, and excluding Hurontario, this runs circles around TTC.
It seems to have become more efficient for Ontario to fund this province’s transit projects. What we’ll certainly see is much better interchanges between the various LRTs and the GO (RER) network.
Steve: It is easy for any level of government to get things quickly from plan into construction when they pay 100% of the cost. Toronto’s problem is that it’s always left begging. Between the delays and the gerrymandering of the transit map to suit election cycles, what we get money for is not necessarily what we need. Queen’s Park was in a situation where if it waited for both the municipal and federal levels to cough up 1/3 each, nothing would get built.
This is now compounded by the “us vs them” mentality that was foisted on Scarborough (and 416 suburbs generally) as a bogus argument for only subways rather than an LRT network. It will take at least one more election cycle to sort that out, and I’m not sure either Tory or Wynne is up to the challenge.
As for Presto, the extended implementation schedule for the TTC is being shortened at TTC’s insistence so that the problems of having two separate fare systems does not drag on any longer than necessary. Presto itself for years was used as a stand-in for “fare integration” whereby Metrolinx answered calls for a single fare with a single fare medium, while ignoring the issues of the high cost of cross-border travel and service integration.
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I am glad that this is finally being done. Perhaps when we have two LRT lines operating in the GTA plus one in Kitchener Waterloo people will finally realize what LRT really is. I am waiting to see which politician, aside from the ones running in the Mississauga by election, to cry, “Mississauga deserves a subway, not an overgrown street car line.” Oh, wait, they already have.
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I thought the lines on Finch and Sheppard were going ahead as planned, at least that’s what we heard last from Metrolinx.
Steve: It does not really matter what Metrolinx says. Until the Minister makes an announcement, they’re just nice lines on a map. There is a desperate need for advocacy for better transit within Toronto, but this has been derailed by the Mayor’s pet SmartTrack project, the Scarborough subway proposal, and the Eglinton line which is trotted out any time someone asks “what has Ontario done for us lately”. With luck, some of the studies now in progress will put other proposals such as the DRL and Waterfront transit projects in context, but nobody is talking about the Finch/Sheppard lines as political priorities.
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Hamilton City Council expects the provincial government to pay the entire cost of their proposed LRT.
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Hear, hear, here’s to hoping that proper performing LRT successfully gets introduced to Ontario’s population (proper stop spacing, proper signal priority) and changes people’s opinion when it actually performs almost as fast as a subway at a fraction of the price.
(Don’t forget Confederation Line in Ottawa, too.)
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After ECLRT and Hurontario, this could happen eventually (a matter of time, due to good economic bang-for-buck for future Ontario taxpayer growth), but I think Hamilton’s been bumped further down the road until Hamilton City Council shapes up and petitions a more unified front. There is almost no funding left over in this funding cycle for Hamilton. If we’re lucky, we’ll see LRT completed in Hamilton by 2025 — if that.
(Hamiltonian here, and Hamilton’s city council bickering gave Mississauga this huge Hurontario gift.)
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You evidently have not been at a Brampton meeting when the Nimbys who live on Main street have complained about everything that would ruin the value and look of their neighbourhood.
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I would not blame Metrolinx if they never put another dollar into TTC projects.
Sheppard Stubway, Scarborough Subway Extension, Spadina-Vaughan Subway Extension behind schedule and way over budget.
Steve: Sheppard? That actually came in on budget, within what was available. It was a bad project, but they built it for the money they had. It was only funded because David Peterson’s folks thought that their pre-election transit announcement in 1990 didn’t look “fat” enough without that (then) $2-billion project.
The TYSSE only exists because of provincial pressure from the former Minister of Finance.
Scarborough Subway Extension? Behind schedule and over budget? It doesn’t even have an EA yet! And, by the way, if the province hadn’t been kissing Scarborough’s ass for votes, the SSE would never get off the ground, so to speak, and we would still be looking at an LRT network.
There’s lots to blame the TTC for, but Queen’s Park’s hands are not exactly clean here.
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Mississauga-Brampton LRT could be a showcase. The new wireless LRV cars are a green solution. These cars get a mini-charge at stops through an underground device and a longer recharge at end points. All without overhead wires.
Steve: I will be interested to see more details on how workable this actually is for a full line as opposed for short sections where a special treatment is desired. According to the EA, it is to be studied, but is not a sure thing yet. The drawings all show designs including overhead contact wire.
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If we don’t denounce stupid subway extensions for the waste that they are (this pending eg. is in Scarborough, which does deserve more transit for sure), then the rest of Toronto and other cities like Hamilton will not get the broad improvements that silver buckshot would give.
TO also has a major set of other costs like housing, like road repairs, etc., so that we really do need to squeeze those billions, and with the SSE, there really isn’t any business case is there? It’s a scheme, not a plan, and the support is less of a majority than maybe thought.
The climate can’t wait for another few years either.
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When I think back to the promise of Transit City and look at what we got out of an apparent real desire by the Province to step up investment in realistic transit it is very sad. Our (Provincial) politicians like to dole out money so that they can reflect in its glory. It is so sad that Toronto Council basically spat in the province’s face, ungrateful and unwilling to go along with fully funded solutions. Instead we let a demagogue spout stupid populist nonsense and, except for Eglinton, we end up with nothing.
I know that some of the delay was because of McGinty’s budget shenanigans, but mostly it was the idiot fringe of Toronto City Council. We’re up to 2015 already and much of Transit City could be on the edge of entering service. Instead we have nothing. I am sure that Mississauga councillors will not be so stupid.
Oh well we can wait for the next round. Subways, subways, subways, Nothing, nothing, nothing. (At this time of year when other cities are rooting for their hockey team, Toronto is once again suffering the dual disappointment – No Hockey – No Transit.)
Steve: And with John Tory’s fantasies about SmartTrack and money from Ottawa, we’re not going to get much further on his watch either.
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This is a great day for the future of LRT in the province. Steve and Robert Wightman must be very happy and especially so Mr Wightman since he lives in Brampton. One concern that I have is the project will begin it’s construction in Mississauga and then stop short of the poorer city of Brampton. This is all too painfully familiar to us in Scarborough where the Sheppard subway was pushed through with the approval and funding from Scarborough taxpayers on promise that it would come to Scarborough but then stopped just short of Scarborough and then we were promised 100% buried Eglinton LRT just before the 2011 provincial election but then as soon as the Liberals won re-election based on that promise, the underground part stopped just short of Scarborough to serve only the wealthier parts to the west. For this reason, I hope that Mr Wightman can campaign hard to make sure that construction for the LRT begin in Brampton and then head south to Mississauga rather than the other way around because if construction starts in Mississauga working it’s way up north, then mark my words: the LRT will NEVER get to Brampton. Already there have been plenty of suggestions of building LRT only in Mississauga and then BRT to extend the route to Brampton but I am hoping that activists like Steve and Robert Wightman will fight hard against any such injustices.
Steve: The only problem with Brampton’s portion is that some of the locals don’t want LRT on their precious streets. This has nothing to do with “poor” or “rich” communities. Your thesis is very tiresome. As for Eglinton’s underground portion stopping “just short or Scarborough”, the last time I looked, Leaside is a long way west of Victoria Park.
I hope that the province will do the right thing and fund 100% of the proposed LRT in Hamilton, pay 100% of the costs to convert the VIVA BRT system in York Region to LRT, and pay 100% of the costs to convert the DRT Pulse BRT in Durham Region to convert to LRT. Yes, I am from Scarborough but unlike what Steve incorrectly thinks, we don’t want all of the transit money to ourselves but would like the funds to be spread more evenly and fairly instead of putting all of the money in Downtown Transit.
LRT is a good form of transit and has its place in Scarborough but not on Eglinton Ave East, not on Sheppard Ave East, and not a viable option to replace the Scarborough RT. Those 3 Scarborough routes need underground transit and LRT in Scarborough can instead be built on Finch Ave East, Ellesmere Rd, Lawrence Ave East, Victoria Park Ave, Markham Rd, and Morningside Ave.
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Are you proposing higher taxes, a bigger deficit, or letting some of the SSE money pay for LRT outside of Scarborough? The DRL is on the wishlist, but unfunded, or are you talking about subway spending on upgrades to the existing system?
I’m glad you admit the usefulness of LRT, but why are Sheppard and Eglinton more needful of something more than LRT than Hurontario?
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@Raymond:
The new green wireless LRT cars are no more of a green option than the old red street cars. The question is where does the electricity come from. If it is old coal fired plants it isn’t green. I do not see much of the line being wireless except the last km or two in Brampton to appease the nimbys. Wireless technology has a cost in increased power consumption and is not needed. The wireless option they are looking at uses batteries which are charged from the overhead unless they have changed plans since the last meeting I attended.
@ John:
Yes I am pleased that Peel knows a good system when it sees it and saddened that certain residents of Scarborough are blinded to the benefits of LRT and its suitability for most area of Scarborough. An LRT that would have replaced the SRT would have had more than enough capacity and would have left money over for more transit. I hope you are happy with your three station subway extension.
@ Hamish:
I fear that trying to talk sensibility to a politician or a subway advocate is like trying to talk a hungry snake out of its prey. Do not confuse them with facts as their prey is in sight.
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Bombardier Primove wireless LRT. (Does not use batteries)
It is in service in Germany.
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Mr. Wightman, there are a few ways to achieve pantograph free operation.
1. Hydrogen powered trams. China has demoed new trams that runs on hydrogen. Those trams basically convert hydrogen into electricity as needed. So, there is no need for any overhead wiring or any electrical infrustucture. Refuelling is an issue and so is range.
2. Bombardier Primove. This does not need charging as power is sent over the air using induction. This is not very efficient, but it protects heritage districts from visual pollution. It also simplifies maintainence on the overhead.
3. Bombardier MITRAC. Using capacitors and not batteries, it can store energy and release them at a high rate for a short time. This allows pantograph down operation for a kilometer or so.
Overheads are not all that bad. I have been to Kyoto. They have trams running in front of many world heritage sites. It is not visually intruding like neon signs one sees in Las Vegas. If they really want to preserve the heritage downtown areas, we should order trams with retro exteriors. This will make a much bigger impact.
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Proof that the Mississauga LRT will NEVER get to Brampton: On Friday, the Liberal government announced GO Regional Express Rail plans which included all day 2 way electric service from Union to only Bramalea station (speaking of Kitchener Line only) and yet 3 days later they announced, the same Liberal government announced funding for an LRT plan touting the benefits of connecting the 3 GO Train lines in Peel Region with connection to the LRT on the Kitchener Line only available at Brampton GO station which is NOT a station that will get all day 2 way service as it is apparently too far away from Toronto to deserve one (remember that GO Transit has always assumed Toronto to be the centre of the universe and hence everyone goes to work in Toronto in the morning and leaves in the evening and that is why we have one way service to begin with (Toronto bound in the morning, away from Toronto bound in the evening)). It is for this reason I will agree with John that construction for this LRT must begin in Brampton and then work it’s way south towards Mississauga. I am also from Scarborough and unlike what Steve probably thinks, I am NOT against a Downtown Relief Line so long as construction begins at Don Mills and Eglinton but as we can tell from the DRL information sessions (all being held in Downtown and NOT a single one in the Don Mills and Eglinton area the high density of which has been used to justify the DRL in the first place), the DRL will NEVER get north of the Bloor-Danforth Line and it goes without saying (just visit the area if you don’t believe me) that Don Mills and Eglinton is a much poorer area than Downtown. If the Liberal government has any intention of actually building the LRT in Brampton, then why did they not announce all day 2 way GO service until at least the Brampton GO station on the Kitchener Line (which would not even add too much to the cost since it is only one station away from Bramalea station due to get all day 2 way service)?
Steve: Yet more hot air about the poor vs the rich on transit.
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Why man, Matthew? All those places that John is advocating transit for (York Region, Durham Region, Peel Region, Hamilton, etc) pay taxes too and so why do we need to take money away from a very underserved area like Scarborough to serve other underserved areas? Why not take money away from proposed Downtown transit which has always gotten the lion’s share of money on not just transit but everything else too? As just one of countless examples, just look at how many hospitals there are in Downtown within a minute’s walk of each other and these were there even when the population of Downtown was much smaller than what it is today and instead the Scarborough hospital is having to consider merging with the hospital system in Durham as a cost cutting measure. Why not relocate some of these hospitals to Scarborough or Rexdale or other areas with no hospitals for miles upon miles upon miles? So many times, I see ambulances from Peel region, Durham Region, York Region, Halton Region, etc parked in front of Downtown hospitals and of course, the odds of survival decline rapidly with the increase in time it takes to get to the hospital and so why not close some of these Downtown hospitals and relocate them so that patients from far away don’t have to spend hours just to get to the hospital when chances are that they would be dead by the time it takes them to get there? I am not saying close all Downtpwn Hospitals but we certainly don’t need 10 of them next to each other as in University and Gerrard area. And of course, hospitals is just one of countless examples where Downtown has vastly higher per capita spending than other parts of the city, other parts of the province, and other parts of the country. If the Scarborough hospital has to merge with the Durham Region hospital system, then Scarborough might as well join Durham Region instead of continuing to subsidise Downtown.
Steve: Most of the hospitals in downtown Toronto already existed while Scarborough was little more than farmland. There’s a reason you see ambulances from the 905 in front of some Toronto hospitals — they are regional centres of excellence in their respective fields.
It’s about time that we pass legislation to ensure equal per capita spending of tax dollars in every region. Steve, will you support such a legislation to promote equality and justice and fairness?
Steve: And so by your formula I should ignore the fact that downtown Toronto generates a huge chunk of regional tax revenue. You don’t want Scarborough taxes paying for downtown stuff, but are more than happy to pillage downtown taxes to pay for Scarborough projects. You want “fairness” but on your terms. Yours is a bogus argument using loaded words to give it a veneer of credibility. Either we spend money where there is need and demand, or we strangle downtown for want of enough residents to get a decent share of transit dollars. By the way, when you come to work downtown, be sure to pay at the toll booth on the way in and out.
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You can’t compare the Mississauga LRT to Scarborough’s transit needs. Yes the proposed technology is the same. But the effectiveness of the route design is completely different & purpose is also slightly different.
Scarborough needs a real plan. Not these unfunded back of napkin dream plans or take it or leave it cheap options. Until we can fund & design something respectful for the future we will have chaos.
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Comparing a fully funded Hurontario LRT to anything proposed line in Scarborough is absurd?? Get real.
Hurontario:
– Has not segregated its Citizens with a few KM of legacy subway connecting to a proposed LRT & expect others to transfer.
Unless we are FULLY funding a functional loop around Scarborough’s perimeter to serve all residents fairly. The Sheppard LRT is nonsense.
Hurontario:
– Provides an effective & attractive North-South Route unlike the Scarborough LRT which short transfer route serves useless industrial land as it makes a bend away from a good part of the population
More nonsense.
When are people going to start listening. We’d rather fight & end up with nothing than accept this second rate LRT plan.
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Absolutely but be sure to pay (retrospectively) the toll fees (both in and out) when you came to work for Scarborough. Your comment implies and as you have explicitly suggested in the past that all jobs are Downtown and that there are not enough jobs in Scarborough to justify subway yet your own job was in Scarborough (whether by choice or not). Perhaps you are only making that comment now that you are retired but if Downtown were to impose toll for going in/out of Downtown, then Scarborough would be sure to respond back with even heftier toll and fees for Downtowners who come in/out of Scarborough.
Steve: (a) My job was originally in downtown and shifted to Scarborough only as a result of municipal amalgamation. It was certainly not my choice to work there. (b) In the many threads about transit equity, we hear a lot about making it possible for people from the suburbs to access “good jobs” downtown without paying usurious GO Transit type fares to travel from the suburbs. You cannot have it both ways.
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From the Bombardier site:
Please note the line: “charges the vehicle via inductive power transfer.” The system does need to have an energy storage device because maximum current draw exceeds power transfer capabilities. Also there is an awful lot of way side hardware that will cost more to build, service and maintain than conventional overhead.
Hydrogen is a non-starter because manufacture, storage and refuelling would be expensive.
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Be careful what you wish for since you may get it.
Steve: It is interesting that there has already been pushback on the funding scheme for the SSE. At Executive Committee, a proposed implementation of development charges that would generate $165-million of the City’s share of the SSE budget ran into rough sailing from the development industry who, unlike ordinary taxpayers, had a shot at opposing the subway tax before it was implemented.
City staff were asked to come up with a way to phase in the new DC, and only an amendment to the proposal qualified the request to ensure that the total amount collected be protected, not reduced.
Imagine the reaction if the projected cost of the subway rises, and Council must revisit the financing scheme.
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False. Many residents of Brampton are against the LRT for many of the same superficial reasons Scarborough doesn’t support the LRT.
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I was really hoping that given how self evident the issues were, and the fact he seemed to leave in the Eglinton West impossibility (on purpose) – he would find some way of back away quickly and admitting that this would not work. RER is on this route is essentially what he promised, and I really wish he would just declare victory with that announcement and move on! Need to get more transit closer to people and a DRL now.
We need to get rapid transit closer to the bulk of the city that is without it. However, clearly we should not run subway to Finch and Kipling, or on Sheppard West, should not build the once proposed Queen Street subway out past Park Lawn, so can Mr. Tory can we please just move on a realistic and achievable plan that could get results. Let City Planning actually do the planning, and build what makes the most sense to support development, without breaking the bank.
If I was at QP, and somebody wanted to push subway all of the place, I suspect that I would be pushing to quietly ignore the issue. This is what I realistically expect to happen in Toronto as well.
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Political hyperbole aside, credit where credit is due — Tory is doing far better than Ford right now. And even many prior mayors.
– Ability to co-operate with polar opposites Harper and Wynne.
– Flexible. He may break promises, but does it more gracefully than Ford.
– SmartTrack, even as a political tool and might be fake, is still de-facto agreement and co-operation with GO RER in disguise (even if SmartTrack never gets funded)
– Kicking a few things along, like reopening Gardiner 2 months early
– Working to accelerate York extension and Presto
We’ve had too many mayors that did not do much, with extremely poor progress over the last 25 years (Eglinton subway fill-in, Sheppard stubway, St. Clair being slower than it should have been, York cost overruns, Transit City cancellation, Scarborough wrangling).
Like or hate Tory, if I was still in Toronto rather than Hamilton, I’d be voting for him as the best “compromise” because all the other options are less appealing. Even Chow which I love her plan the best, is not nearly as immune to future cancellation by future governments. I’m very sad about the state of affairs. In an ideal world, Chow’s projects made a hell of a lot of sense and this is what Toronto could have gotten much faster.
Cancellations and wrangling may happen, but there is looking to be a huge recent surge of transit projects already (ECLRT, Hurontario, UPX, Union revitalization, GO upgrades) and huge pile-in of new future projects (GO RER electrification, whatever Scarborough is getting, infill stations a la SmartTrack or non-SmartTrack, massively improved interchanges between GO/TTC, etc) and Tory is one of the few candidates that can ensure things stay stable long enough to see these through in a hard-to-cancel way.
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My real concern isn’t so much that he won’t end up somewhere sensible, but, as Steve said, that it will happen too late for any meaningful progress to be made before we’re getting into gear for the 2018 campaign
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That’s not exactly true. There are always going to be detractors because of a lack of understanding, and yeah, some are against it because they want to be able to drive everywhere but most residents are enlightened enough to recognize driving isn’t the solution and better transit is. I grew up in Brampton and lived there for 25 years. I wish the level of transit now found in Brampton was available when I was younger and growing up — it’s laughable how pathetic it was back then. Incidentally, I also helped run a campaign for a regional councillor candidate last year — to a person, not one person we came across in the wards (and in events across the city) thought better transit and the LRT was a bad idea. Take that for what you will but it’s a start and a good start.
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Mr. Wightman, here is a quote from Bombardier’s site.
It is optional, but recommended to have.
The problem with Primove is that it is a one way street. Electricity can only be sent one way from the underground system to the tram. If a tram is braking or coasting downhill, braking regeneration has no where to send the power to. The tram cannot transfer power back to the grid. With capacitors (like Bombardier MITRAC), it can store that energy so that it accelerate faster or store energy for later use. Charging a tram at the station is not really a solution. HVAC systems consume a lot of energy, [not just] propulsion. When a tram is at a station, the HVAC runs harder since the doors are open. If Primove is limited in the energy it can transfer, charging at the station is not a solution either.
Reading this page, the Primove system does not require a lot of wayside components. Everything is buried, so it will not pollute visually. Obviously, transformer boxes are still needed, but a box is much easier to integrate into the street.
Primove is not the most ideal solution. The testers so far have not run faster than 40 km/h. But if the people in Brampton have a downtown to protect, it is one solution. There are also trams with last mile diesel generators on board. Those are not very popular for obvious reasons.
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But a good solid state IGBT inverter on board a tram can give power back to the overhead instead of the super capacitor and save up 30% in electrical costs. The LRV, T1s and TRs regenerate power on braking and send it back into the system. Overhead systems also reduce the need for wayside inverters that convert the electricity from 60 Hz to a much higher frequency. These inverters need air conditioning or a supply of cold water to remove heat.
Electromagnetic induction with an air gap is less efficient than using overhead. Catenary free systems introduce a lot more complexity because they need:
1. Wayside inverters with cooling systems and under ground induction coils.
2. Onboard inductive coils to receive the electric energy.
3. More complex power control devices to convert the high frequency AC to a lower frequency 3 phase to power the traction motors.
4. Onboard energy storage devices, either batteries or super capacitor to even out power loads and store regenerated energy.
It is much simpler to have an overhead system and use batteries for the last km through nimby land along Main street. Does anyone know the cost comparisons between catenary overhead system compared with a full Primove system? I am not saying that it does not have its place but I don’t think Hurontario-Main LRT is the place.
Every time you introduce another form of power conversion you increase power losses, complexity and cost.
True and another problem is that unless Hydro has changed the way they calculate their industrial electricity charges they base this on 3 factors:
1. Total power used.
2. Power factor of the load.
3. Peak current demand, even if it is only for 1 minute.
If charging stations draw 1000 amps for 1 minute every 4 minutes while the overhead draws 250 A continuously you are using the same amount of power but your peak current demand is 4 times as great so you are charged more because the system has to be able to supply it on demand. For very large systems the odds are that the charging times would not all be the same but the peak demand would probably be higher.
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So you want to make sure that communities like Windsor, Sarnia, Kingston, Bracebridge, Smith Falls, and Fenelon Falls (part of the greater Kawartha/Peterborough subway perhaps?) get their fair share of subway money??? Of course we pull that kinds of stupidity, and Toronto will be asking for the same number of lane miles of road per resident as Northern Ontario, or even Lambton County has. Equality is about making sure spending is appropriate, and makes sense locally. That means roads in Northern Ontario and most areas of Eastern and parts of South Western Ontario, and subway where the density justifies it, believe me it does not in Lambton County. Lower density areas make up for their lower dollars of heavy capital transit, with more buses and roads per resident.
Steve: I might also point out that the province already plans to dole out funding on an equitable basis, but they don’t consider every former Toronto Borough to be a separate entity for that purpose.
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I didn’t know Mississauga has a subway on part of that proposed LRT route. No Comparison really. There will always be people who fight change but at least Peel’s LRT its one consistent plan that benefits both Cities.
In Toronto we have the haves and the have nots when it comes to the Government purse. Most Government decisions made for Scarborough are done with half the effort due to the push back from area with no interest in Scarborough’s future. Because the Municipal Government doesn’t invest properly the private sector doesn’t either & people are leaving for Suburbs which have their own voice & more sound policy for future growth.
We didn’t want the sub par LRT plan being pushed upon us by “experts” & it wasn’t just about the technology. There are many more issues with funding, route alignment, connectivity, etc.
But you wouldn’t know unless you lived here & many people that did live here leave because of this lack of investment & growth.
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FALSE, FALSE, FALSE!
Ontario actually wants to build GO RER to Brampton, and may manage to do so eventually, but there’s several roadblocks:
(A) Read Ontario ownership of GO rails. Metrolinx owns most of Kitchener line now.
The national CN mainline goes through Brampton. Metrolinx purchased as much rail as they could easily purchase on Kitchener, and Metrolinx’s owned rail actually connects to CN rail just before Brampton. OUCH.
That is why they could not commit to GO RER in Brampton … they don’t own the railroad yet! They have to negotiate hardball with CN to try to widen the corridor (And Brampton, for widening the corridor, to three or four tracks — which requires expropriation). There are plans underfoot, but it’s going to take time, possibly beyond this 10-year plan.
Metrolinx has long-term plans to electrify all the way to Kitchener, but it’s going to take time … Ontario wants to run high speed trains over this route too (London-Kitchener-Toronto) and it is quite probable that Ontario may assign high speed rail to a Metrolinx subsidary. But even before that, there’s many excellent reasons to eventually extend electrification to Brampton and beyond.
The reason they cannot do that right now, is because they DO NOT OWN that small segment of rail.
If this concept is hard to understand: There’s essentially multiple sets of rail corridors (Metrolinx rail and CN mainline) east and west of the Brampton segment. But guess what … this corridor merges into one corridor through Brampton! And that segment is owned by CN. Through the Brampton chokepoint is only room for two rails with some difficulty squeezing in a third rail (with minor expropriation and move of Brampton historic station 10 meters north), and possibly a fourth rail (With much more major expropriation).
Metrolinx has full intention of building LRT through Brampton. Stop being so damn cynical, the reason why GO RER is not reaching Brampton, is completely unrelated to LRT.
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No one has deployed a revenue service tram system with Primove. The only revenue service implementation is in Berlin City Bus Line 204. The project cost 3.3 million EUR for four charging locations. They were placed under bus stops and the bus depot. This also included the cost of installing batteries inside buses. A bit of trivia here, the buses were installed with 200 kW batteries so that they can travel a few kilometers on battery. The buses are only charged when stoping at certain bus stops.
Batteries are not very efficient in absorbing large amount of energy and releasing the same in a short period of time. Those 200 kW batteries are massive. The plug in Honda Accord only carries a 6 kW battery pack for comparison. A tram running down Brampton’s downtown with the air conditioning on will probably require a 1000 kW battery pack. This is heavy to carry around. Keep in mind that batteries should not be held in full or complete depletion state for long life. Realistically, the charging controller will only allow 80% of it to be used.
One more point, wayside converters are generally not cooled with air conditioning. This is not efficient. Heat pumps are more efficient. Since Port Credit GO station is relatively close to the lake, pumping lake water all the way to Brampton is also another way to cool the converters without using energy intensive air conditioning. I am not saying it is the solution, but just sharing a thought.
Primove is a solution if the situation warrants it and people are willing to pay for it. When people visit places like Vienna or Budapest, no one complains about the tram overhead wires. Trams bring people to the historic disctricts which is what gives it life. The cheaper solution is using the capacitors of the MITRAC system for pantograph down operation.There is probably just enough power to propel the tram foward. I doubt the air conditioning would be running at full blast using capacitor power.
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Of course it will. Matlow is already preparing his Toronto Star article for that event. Again we will fight back. As we go in circles again arguing the opposition which is relentlessly trying to shove a half thought out & funded LRT plan the majority out here don’t want.
Like I said before it most certainly will take much longer than projected & more money to build it properly. The delay will be caused once again by the “anti Scarborough” opposition at City hall. But I fully expect the extension will be built.
The only way it doesn’t moved forward is if we see
1. A re-routed completely funded LRT plan to serve all Citizens of Scarborough fairly (not likely).
2. A left leaning Mayor at City hall next election who doesn’t support the SSE. But IMO the only way well see a left leaning Mayor next election is if they support the SSE.
Steve: No, it will take much longer because your Scarborough caucus is now pushing for a longer version of the route with more stations. This will have to be paid for with 100% Toronto tax dollars, and at some point more than Josh Matlow (and his voters) will tire of your petulant whining.
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