Today, Metrolinx announced that GO Transit will offer a pilot low-cost fare on its Lake Shore line between Exhibition, Union and Danforth Stations. For $60, riders can buy a monthly sticker that would be added to their Metropass much as the Premium Express stickers for TTC services are today.
This is a substantial discount from the $181.60 that it would cost for the 20 days’ commuting trips based on the fares effective February 1, 2015. ($5.09 for each of rides 1-35, and $0.69 for rides 36-40.) The scheme began with a call for cheaper fares between Liberty Village and downtown Toronto, given that Exhibition Station is at the south end of the neighbourhood. Not to be outdone, east end Councillors jumped on the bandwagon, and Danforth Station was added to the request. GO’s announcement responds to these two “squeaky wheels”, but falls short on a number of other points.
- Having a Metropass is a pre-requisite to using the lower GO fare. Depending on a rider’s travel pattern, a Metropass may be more expensive than pay-as-you-play token purchases.
- The further one lives from Exhibition Station, the less attractive a walk to GO will be, especially during off-peak periods when finding space on the King car would be less of an issue.
- One advantage touted for the scheme is offloading subway demand. In fact, this requires passengers to walk from Main Station to the GO Danforth Station, roughly a seven minute journey from the subway platform, plus the wait time added by the transfer connection. Ironically, many of the peak trains stopping at Danforth will also serve Kennedy Station which would be a much simpler transfer point for many east end riders, but the cheaper fare will not be available there.
- The fare from Danforth to Union is the same as the fare from Scarborough, Eglinton, Kennedy, Weston, Etobicoke North, Oriole, Old Cummer and York University Stations. It is higher than the fare from Bloor, Long Branch, Mimico and Kipling. However, the cheaper “integrated” fare is offered only to those riders who have the least potential time saving by switching from TTC to GO for their commute trips.
Many peak period trains now run express and skip Danforth and Exhibition Stations. As of January 16, 2015, service is provided only by Lakeshore corridor trains (all Stouffville trains run express).
- Danforth to Union
- AM Peak: 6:36, 7:01, 7:16, 7:55, 8:27, 8:55.
- Union to Danforth
- PM Peak: 15:43, 16:30, 17:05, 17:20, 17:35, 18:18
- Exhibition to Union
- AM Peak: 6:27, 7:00, 7:37, 7:58, 8:24, 8:56, 9:04
- Union to Exhibition
- PM Peak: 15:43, 16:13, 16:43, 17:10, 17:43, 18:13
The schedules will change effective February 2:
- Stouffville line trains will stop inbound at Danforth at: 6:15, 7:36, 7:48, 8:20, 8:46, 9:46
- Stouffville line trains will stop outbound at Danforth leaving Union at 16:18, 16:48, 18:00
Some counter-peak Lakeshore trips that now run express will stop at Danforth. Details are on the GO website.
No additional trains will stop at Exhibition Station.
At the press conference announcing this pilot project, Metrolinx President & CEO Bruce McCuaig spoke of how this would be a “revenue neutral” undertaking. No additional trains will be operated. Whatever handful of commuters who now pay the full GO fare from Exhibition or Danforth to Union will get a big discount, but any new riders are found money for GO Transit. Whether this would be the case if the arrangement were extended throughout GO’s inner fare zones is another matter.
This is supposed to be a one-year pilot, and riders who originate in, say, Scarborough might reasonably ask why they have been left out in the cold even though there are many GO stations including those in the future SmartTrack corridor. How this pilot will establish much about the actual market for an integrated TTC/GO fare is a mystery, but the announcement provided yet another photo op for the politicians.
As of 1:45 pm on January 16, I await a formal response from Metrolinx to a query about the scope of the pilot and the absence from it of many potential stations.
Steve Munro 
Steve, minor-league troll here … why are you always upset? You never have a good thing to say about anything TTC. C’mon, this IS good news however flat you feel it falls. It’s a START! Something that has never been tried before so, win or lose, somebody is attempting some improvement and deserves (at least a little) pat on the back don’t you think? Yes, maybe not enough stations, yes, maybe not the right stations and even if it fails, at least an attempt was made at improvement. Trying is always better than not trying (see last 4 years!)
Steve: If you were at the press conference, you would know that this is being touted as much more than it really is. I don’t see it as “good news” to undertake a pilot that most of the people who would really benefit from fare integration cannot use. It just looks like yet another sop to the poor downtowners while people in the suburbs make do. As for “not tried before”, well we used to have a GO/TTC “Twin Pass” that was abandoned because GO wouldn’t pay its share of the subsidy. If this is intended to be a trial of whether there is a market for integration, they have gone about it precisely the wrong way.
No, they do not deserve a pat on the back. This deserves to be called out for what it is — the impression of “action” but on a scale and in a way that could have been done so much better.
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A first baby step to integration. It’s odd that Bloor was left out though.
Perhaps of more use right now, is simply the increase in service at Danforth station, at least for those who live nearby. And for the very few who might take the Stouffville train to work, and currently would change at Union, to go to the east end.
I do the occasional trip to Unionville in the early evening. Previously I took the subway from Main Street to Kennedy, and boarded GO at Kennedy to Unionville. Boarding at Danforth would simplify that (rare) trip (particularly as I take 506 to Main Street).
Though for amusement, check out the February 1 fare on the Fare calculator:
Danforth-Unionville – $9.45
However:
Union-Unionville – $6.93
Oops … though on Twitter, GO has commented that they are looking into it.
Steve: This is almost certainly because “Danforth” isn’t a stop today on the Stouffville service and the tariff does not have this station pair in its tables. (I am using the 2014 tariff as my reference.)
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This pilot will not be very useful. It is unlikely that someone will put big signs at Main Station informing people of the discount. Even if the signage is there, what is the appeal? At Main Station, the metro is not jam packed. There will no seats on the westbound, but one can still get in. This will be the same at Danforth Station where one will not find a seat either in the bilevel cars.
Let’s not forget that the walk to Danforth Station is not particularly pleasant especially in this weather. The only advantage is avoiding the transfer at Bloor Yonge Station. Even on a temporary basis, Metrolinx should at least install some canopies or cover so that the walk from Main Station to Danforth Station is more pleasant.
If this is extended to more stations, then it would be useful. Right now, the 53E and the 190 buses do not even stop at the GO Stations. Getting those buses to drop people there is a start and will intercept some of the load on the metro. It will probably be faster to use the 53E bus and transfer at Miliken Station to end the journey downtown.
This is a good start.
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Funny you should mention the transfers eating up time saving, I was tweeting back and forth with Oliver Moore from the Globe about that earlier.
I stated to him that I live between Warden Subway Station and Scarborough GO Station. With this new fare integration scheme, it’s somewhat impractical to take GO. I have two options with this new scheme.
A) I could take the GO train to Danforth, walk to Main Subway Station then transfer to the subway which would take me to Warden. As you said, it’s a 7 minute walk in a good day to Main Station where I would then have to wait approximately [?] minutes for my next train. It’s then 7 minutes to Warden more or less. That said, I am wasting 20 minutes transferring which is more than the 16 I would save taking GO from Union to Danforth.
OR
B) I could take GO all the way to Scarborough which would require me to pay a full fare to go from Danforth to Scarborough at approximately $6.00 each way. That adds $162.88 to my commute in addition to the $60 I would pay for the sticker. Metropass and everything this option will cost me $356.25 a month. With this option, it makes no sense to even buy the sticker as it would cost me $162.88 a month with Presto for 8 trips between Union and Scarborough a week with Presto. This makes for a total of $296.35 with a Metropass and no sticker.
All in all this new fare integration scheme is a failure from the beginning. No matter what, it’s going to cost me more to buy the sticker or force me to waste even more time than I would using only the TTC. At least at Kennedy or Warden I can get a bus direct to my street. If it was convenient I would use it but in reality it’s not. I end up paying more for an inconvenient transfer.
This seems like one of those feel good things put out as part of John Tory’s SmartTrack plan.
Steve: I await comments from folks in Scarborough about how yet another inconvenient transfer is being foisted onto them. It was intriguing that no Scarborough Councillors attended today’s press conference, and frankly I wonder why they are not beating down Metrolinx’ door demanding in on this “pilot”.
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You can wonder why all you want Steve however let me use the now infamous refrain of SUBWAYS!! SUBWAYS!! SUBWAYS!!. If Scarborough Councillors acquiesce and play along then they are admitting to everyone that SmartTrack is the way to go while also admitting that they can do without a subway in Scarborough.
It’s almost political suicide. As the saying goes you can’t have your cake and eat it too. A Bloor-Danforth extension is sexy option. GO fare integration is not. Perhaps you can bring it up next week at the TTC Board Meeting?
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True. Though the new tariff takes effect in February, the same time that this new service starts. You’d think that they’d have made appropriate changes to the tariff to reflect the service that starts at the same time as the tariff!
Benny Let’s not forget that the walk to Danforth Station is not particularly pleasant especially in this weather.
I don’t find the walk to Woodbine Station or Main Street station particularly pleasant either. That probably explains why no one uses these stations (not).
It’s a Sobey’s near Main Street station. And a Valuemart at Woodbine. I believe the Metro is near Victoria Park.
Seriously though – should someone who is ignorant enough of transit in Toronto to call the subway “metro” be commenting on what the locals are going to do with this!
This is very useful for those currently paying $180 a month to ride GO from Exhibition or Danforth. For a mere $12 they can now get unlimited rides on TTC. How is this not a good thing? I may even get some of the locals to switch to GO – some of which already walk through Danforth station to get from that new development southeast of Danforth station to Main Street station.
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This is designed to look good on paper but to have no real impact that would benefit commuters. The inbound trains at the Exhibition and Danforth will be packed. It will add 4 minutes to the travel time of trains that would normally skip these stations so you make the journey longer for up to 2000 passengers to give a possible saving for the small number of passengers who will ride this service.
The cost works out to about $2.90 per day if you already have a Metro Pass. I am sure that this has been studied and chosen because it will look good in the press but will not cost GO a penny.
If they ran this in Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough they would probably get lots of riders because it would be useful, but would cost GO revenue so it won’t happen. It will make the residents of those 3 former boroughs mad because they think the downtown elite will be getting a break but I bet very few would use it.
Whenever I ride into Toronto there are usually a couple of people who get on at Bloor and ride to Union. I doubt that they pay and I have never seen anyone get checked between Bloor and Union.
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Oh look, combining responses to 2 different posts together in the same answer, no longer makes sense, with the new threading …
Steve: I was wondering what you were talking about there.
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It would have been great if they could have found a way to implement this without piggybacking on the Metropass.
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I don’t understand why anyone at Danforth/Main would pay for this? Say your current daily commute is from Main to Union. By taking the GO, you save, at best, maybe 5 minutes? Of course this only applies if you can time the GO train or get lucky, which probably means you need to be within walking distance of Main station, because riding a bus or streetcar in would make it that much more difficult to time the train. And you have to need to get to Union, because if your destination is closer to King, for example, that probably kills your time savings. Even the transfer from Union GO to the 509/510 is slightly more time consuming than from the subway.
Basically, this is good for people who live within a short walk of Main station and need to get to Union near daily. How many people could that possibly be? And even for them, is it worth a $60 premium? I live a couple of stops west of Dundas West, about a 20 minute walk from Bloor station, and even if there were 10 minute GO service to Union and I worked in that area, I doubt I’d use it even if it didn’t require the extra $60.
Meanwhile, Guildwood serves a priority neighbourhood where (presumably) people cannot afford both GO and TTC and must either make do with a longer commute or suffer elsewhere. Rouge Hill is serviced by 3 TTC bus routes and is having capacity issues with its parking lots. GO service to Union from either station would represent a major improvement in travel times over the TTC. Maybe you have to charge more than $60, but these are the stations where this kind of fare integration could have a huge impact.
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Personally, I can’t figure out why Oriole was left out of the pilot since that would be a connection that would benefit from this idea even with the current state of the transfer between Oriole and Leslie station.
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Steve, I wish they would do this as pilot for Mimico & Guildwood, ideally stop at least 3 trains per hour at each, and have Metropass + Go + MiWay/York region. Let us have a look at that sort of pass.
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TTC should honestly just eat the cost entirely…make a deal with metrolinx – if you buy a metropass you get free Go-Transit within the city of Toronto (via some flag on your presto card), all Go routes in Toronto match TTC ticket prices…simple, easy to administer and likely will save the TTC money in the long term as it encourages people taking long trips to use GO…freeing up capacity on the subway, and saving capital costs down the road…Metrolinx still gets paid, and they are happy…
When they do it they can raise the price of a metropass by a couple of dollars, and increase the city subsidy a bit…and maybe get Metrolinx to give a 10% bulk discount on all the tickets…that spreads the cost out across the entire tax base in a reasonable way…
Conversely for people using GoTransit monthly they get a 60$ metropass, with GoTransit paying the difference to the city…they can raise their rates a bit, and it makes their service more attractive for people coming into the city, and Toronto doesn’t lose revenue on metropass…
Steve: All that is far too sensible, and requires that all agencies/governments look at the “all in” costs of moving riders with a network, rather than “my cost”, “your cost” and schemes to keep the effect “revenue neutral”. Avoiding needless capital and operating costs is a fundamental part of the review of how GO, RER, SmartTrack, DRL and other upgrades would all form a unified system. Current funding/planning arrangements work against this type of view.
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I can see the Main Subway Station/Danforth GO Station happening only whenever the 2 Bloor-Danforth line is closed somewhere west of Main. But would someone use it using the weekend? I may see it happening because of an emergency closure during rush hour, but weekends? Take the streetcar from Main.
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I presume that this is intended as some sort of precursor to the SmartTrack proposal. It looks like Danforth GO will have about 15 minute service in rush hour in the peak direction now.
I hope that Tory figures out that GO trains on Eglinton West makes no sense as soon as possible. If this proposal gets revised so that the western end is somewhere in Brampton then it would be much better, and also my guess is that it could be built for far less than $8 billion.
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Scarborough Councillors get free parking in a 2,000 space parking garage under City Hall.
If this Toonerville downtown relief pilot project could be used as an excuse to remove buses or LRT plans from the roads, they’d be a lot more interested.
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Why wouldn’t people pay for it? Many now pay $180 a month to GO to travel from Danforth to Union. Now for $12 a month more they can get unlimited TTC usage. Which one of these wouldn’t pay for this?
5 minutes? Travel time from Danforth to Union is 10 minutes (schedule says 14 minutes, but remember they they reduced the scheduled stop time at Union from 6 minutes to 2 minutes a few years ago, but nothing else. It’s 4 minutes of padding). Travel time from Main to Yonge is 15 minutes, and from Yonge to Union is is 7 minutes. Changing trains, and waiting for a train at Bloor-Yonge is going to be at least 3 minutes. So 10 minutes versus 25 minutes.
I can’t see anyone getting off the subway at Main to change to the GO. But if you actually are at Danforth/Main in the first place, and your commute IS to Union, then this should save 15 minutes if you can time your arrival at Danforth station to meet the train (not difficult now that the GO Train realtime arrival information is on time). I’d certainly take it. Sadly, by the time I walk 15 minutes to Danforth station, and then 10 minutes east of Union, I can instead take the streetcar which can do the entire commute in only 25 minutes (or at used to, before the 504 started running down Parliament).
Steve: The whole point in any of the trip diversion comparisons is that best case times are misleading. If the pilot had included stations further from Union, the time saving on GO itself would be a greater offset to the access times at both ends of that trip.
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Steve why do access times matter? If you live near Danforth station, or are already taking the bus/streetcar north to Main Street, you likely have an equal amount of time to access the subway as you do the GO Train. Similarly at the other end, you might actually work closer to the GO platform at Union then the subway platform.
Ditto in Liberty Village. You’ve got a nice walk north to 504, or south to Exhibition station. Some will find the walk to the train is less; some more.
Steve: The whole point here is that most riders do not live in walking distance of Main Station, and that TTC/GO speak of this scheme as a “relief” mechanism, albeit on a small scale, for the subway. They explicitly talk about people transferring from westbound subway trains to GO at Main. The local MPP even muses about building a tunnel linking the two stations. Liberty Village does have the advantage (at least for its southern portion) of being a convenient walk to CNE station. However, a lot of the newer buildings lie north of King, and the extra hike down to the GO line won’t be very attractive.
Access time includes the padding one must include to ensure that one makes the connection rather than just missing a train on a 15 minute or greater headway. Any transfer connection adds this to the total travel time, and riders are particularly sensitive to this sort of “non productive” extension of their trip. Dare I mention the unhappy SRT users who constantly complain about Kennedy Station where the connection is much simpler? I hate to think what they would make of an SRT to GO transfer at this point even if the trip to Union might be faster. Of course many of them are not going to the Union Station area.
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How will they judge the success of this pilot? What, if anything, is being measured? They’ll know the number of these passes that they sell each month but are they planning on tracking the riders? They (presumably) won’t tap on or off so Presto won’t have a record of their journeys. Are they planning to track where people start and end their trips? What time of day they ride? If riders avoid GO or TTC at certain times of the day?
Will the study measure the income of the riders and how the cost of the pass affects use? Is this what transit fare integration will look like in future? Is anything being studied or is this just an announcement to let people in Liberty Village know that instead of fixing the King streetcar (by simply enforcing the diamond lane rules) they have the option of paying even more for transit and squeezing into a packed GO Train for one stop?
Steve: You might very well say that, but if I were to impute such crass motives to Metrolinx, some of my critics here would accuse me of being insufficiently supportive of this bold move.
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That may be true, but Benny did not say “Metro”, he said “metro”.
Maybe he called it that because he knows the meaning.
From the Oxford English Dictionary :
Admittedly, it is not very common in referring to the Subway, but recently I have been seeing it more and more. Using it certainly does not merit ridicule.
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Clearly few are going to transfer regularly from the subway on Main Street to Danforth station. The politicians might not understand it, but surely those in Metrolinx and TTC who came up with this pricing do. Those who campaigned for TTC/GO to implement something like this aren’t doing this transfer from subway — they are walking. I suppose if one’s office is in Union Station, or particularly just south of it, it might actually make sense to change from TTC to GO, as the amount of walking you gain at Main/Danforth cuts what you already have to walk from the Union subway station. But you don’t have to walk far north or east of Union Station for this to have no benefit. It’s an excellent backup plan if the subway is down — but this new pricing doesn’t cover that.
Now if they were to build a tunnel from the Main Street mezzanine, down Main, that comes out at the existing GO station … perhaps that would encourage some more transfers. Some people seem to be pretty weather and cold-adverse (something I found amusing on Friday night standing in St. Clair station waiting for a train, with the wind ripping through the platform, at what felt like -20°C windchill.)
Though I expect there’s more people who currently take the GO from the east to Danforth, and then transfer to the subway to go to non-Union destinations such as University of Toronto, than there is who’d transfer from the subway, to the train, to go to Union. This is why we need a better connection!
Steve: I hope you have at least $10m in spare change to pay for such a connection.
I doesn’t merit ridicule. It does however provide evidence that the poster is not that familiar with Toronto, to not know the local terminology. I wouldn’t dream of using the word subway when in Montreal. And I wouldn’t dream of using either the word metro or subway when in London. Nor am I going to ask a Torontonian where the hidden entrance to the Tube station is on Danforth. As such, the poster shouldn’t be talking about how crowded the line is at certain stations, as they clearly don’t spend a lot of time in the subway.
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Now that we have a DRL east and DRL west in the form of GO?TTC fare integration, it is time to extend the Yonge subway north to Newmarket – the capital of York Region. It is a construction ready project and so let’s get the shovels in today. Let’s move the Vaughan subway tunnelling equipment to Yonge St now that tunnelling is complete on the Vaughan subway.
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Steve: I hope you have at least $10m in spare change to pay for such a connection
I don’t see how you build SmartTrack with a Main/Danforth interchange without doing something. Would it be that bad of a change, with a pedestrian walkway? 300 metres – I swear I’ve walked further in Paris changing trains … or even Seoul when changing from platform A to B by walking the entire length of platform C, and up and down. The tunnel at Spadina from Line 1 to Line 2 is 220 metres.
Steve: I’m not saying one might not build a connection, but it’s not a $5 project. This whole “pilot” is supposed to be “revenue neutral”, and you have to get a lot of fares to pay for something like a tunnel linking the two stations. Quite bluntly, we have more important things to spend our money on.
As I said in the article, many of the trains that will serve Danforth will also serve Kennedy where there is an existing connection, if only the fare “pilot” were offered there as well.
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If you have made transfer connections in Paris you should know the term “metro.” Yes there are some really long walks between stations in Paris and London. There is also one in Toronto between Spadina Station on Bloor and on University. I would bet that the one at Danforth Station to Main Station would be much longer. Just because some one else does it doesn’t mean it is good.
The Lyon Metro (that is a subway in France) line C has a 17% grade that it takes as an rack railway. It is needed there because of the steep hill but doesn’t mean it is needed elsewhere.
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Steve, I agree. Not happening soon. I’d think in the $20 million range at least. Would be part of RER I’d think. Though will be interesting to see what Metrolinx is thinking with their Main/Danforth Mobility Hub. It’s certainly not a factor currently.
Though with recent discussions about adding a 4th Track through Danforth station, they’d have to rebuild the existing station, and extend the pedestrian tunnel … perhaps they could at least build that in mind with continuing the tunnel north to Danforth in the future.
Steve: Don’t forget that the existing tunnel does not align with a clear path past the development just north of the station. Then there’s the utilities to get under at Danforth while heading across to the subway, not to mention the existing buildings.
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So, as I said, this serves the people who live within walking distance of Main/Danforth stations and commute back and forth to Union. While it’s true that I wasn’t thinking of the advantage for existing GO commuters, it still seems like a very narrow market with a limited payoff. It doesn’t offer any relief for Bloor-Yonge (in fact, possibly the opposite, as those GO commuters may now be more inclined to occasionally take the subway). It’s probably not serving a particularly disadvantaged demographic (those currently paying a premium for GO over the TTC from Main/Danforth are probably not just scraping by). It’s not offering a huge time savings (relative, of course, but compared to the potential time savings for commuters at the suburban stations). And it’s not serving an area currently underserved by the TTC (like Exhibition).
I’m all for regional fare integration. As a daily TTC user, I’d love to be able to occasionally hop on a GO train or bus without paying a huge fare premium, but I’m also in favour of a system that just rewards people who can use a mix of GO and TTC as a part of their daily commute. If I believed that this “pilot” was really a sign of things to come, I’d be all for it. But I suspect that Exhibition happened because Mike Layton and a few others hammered on it long enough, and they caved on Danforth precisely because they think it will have next to no impact.
We’ve seen these kinds of micro-integrations before. At one time (maybe still?) UTSC students could ride the 38 from Rouge Hill station to UTSC with proof of GO fare. Despite what they say, I don’t buy that we’re any closer to any significant GO/TTC fare integration with this program. The logical next step (barring a full TTC Presto rollout) would be some kind of GO station zoning with accordingly priced Metropass stickers that allow you to travel within each zone, but I don’t think that’s where we’re going, yet.
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I don’t understand your second bullet… Surely the whole point of lowering the cost of metropass+go travel is that it makes taking the TTC to the go station a sensible price. It takes the marginal cost of TTC trips to the Go station down to about 33c/trip. 905 users pay twice that!
Steve: By “my second bullet” I presume you refer to:
Exhibition Station is not particularly accessible by TTC, and the target market for the reduced fare is the people who live in Liberty Village and environs. However, the station is at the southwest corner of a large area and the access time to the station will add considerably to the journey, to the point that the advantage over taking the King car (for all its problems) may be fully offset. Also, someone whose journey is only between the two GO stations and who does not make enough TTC trips separately to warrant a pass would have to buy one just to make the GO sticker valid.
The people for whom GO is more attractive, who willingly pay GO fares now, use stations further from the core, but still within the same fare zone as CNE and Danforth Stations. However, they are not offered this discount, something that would be more attractive to them because there is more time to be saved to offset access time.
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First off, I fully agree with your break down on how this pilot misses the mark & it truly shows just how far behind we are in the realm of public transit planning.
Second, us Scarborough citizens need to prioritize our fights carefully. Common sense Integration can be implemented at anytime & should have been years ago. But out here we have bigger fish to fry & better infrastructure comes first.
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Robert Wightman has quoted text in my name that I didn’t say:
Those aren’t my words – this is quite disturbing, as whoever said that is being extremely rude. Robert why are you attributing such rudeness to me?
Also, I don’t know why you and whoever are arguing about the usage of the word. Have you ever stood on Danforth and had an English-speaking person trying to find one of the mysterious entrances to the Danforth subway ask where the Metro is? It’s not the word that’s in use locally. Clearly anyone using the word knows little about local transit. (Or I suppose has some serious personality disorder or mental-health issues). But more likely is just ignorant about the city.
Steve: When I formatted that comment, it was hard to tell where the quotation broke off because “a” was quoting “b” who quoted “c” at some point in the dialogue. Frankly I think this whole thing is just getting stupid. The original kvetch about using “metro” to mean “subway”, followed by a riff on various chain store names and locations, really is not quite the level of debate I expect here. Don’t forget, folks, that people are rather free about the use of “LRT” and “streetcar” among other terms.
We all know what a “metro” is.
I shop at Loblaws because that’s my local store. Access time trumps any other considerations especially considering that I walk to the store and don’t drive.
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I’d assume the tunnel would come off, skirt around the parking structure, and then just head up Main, mostly under the road-right-of-way. Oh, there’d be some major utility issues. $20 million is probably more reasonable. Though we have no problems spending that much money for accessibility issues for individual TTC stations. What about accessibility between stations that many of us would benefit from – I can’t be the only person who has trudged between the two stations in the rain, carrying a baby (normally I head south to the Gerrard/Main streetcar stop, but with the baby and the rain, and no streetcar coming, I headed to shelter).
Steve: The Dufferin Station project, which included provision of second exits, modernization of the existing station and provision of elevators, came in at about $34m of which $14.5m was for accessibility provisions. I venture to say that this is a more important use of capital than building a tunnel from Main to Danforth Station. I have to return again and again to the basic issue: of all the things we could spend money on, is provision of a subway-to-GO link at Danforth a high priority? I think its potential as a “relief” connection is very much overblown, but maybe someone will start a campaign to say that Upper Beachers “deserve” their tunnel.
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It might provide a very little relief, as someone who does live near Danforth but also uses TTC a lot, and is currently taking the subway because they don’t want to spend $300+ for both, can now take GO for not much more than they already pay. But I don’t think this is that significant in the greater scheme of things. They might have more impact by making the same offer at Kennedy.
But you’re right … it could encourage current GO users to use TTC more! LOL!
Ultimately, greater integration is a good thing. It’s a baby step. If it’s a step forward, great. But you’re right – there’s been little things like this before, that don’t seem to lead elsewhere.
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Now I’d like to go back in time to when GO Transit introduced express service and Mel Lastman expressed his frustration by refusing to pay the city’s share of GO Transit costs (at least, that’s how I remember it…it was over a decade ago). If only there had been a push for more local trains at the time.
Anyways…what I would like to see from the pilot is that, if it is unsuccessful people will support it the same way they support extending the Sheppard subway. You know, by saying that the pilot project would have been more of a success if it also included Kennedy, Scarborough, Oriole, and Bloor stations.
I’m curious though….how does the cost of the sticker on the Metropass compare to the cost of a regular 905 user benefitting from the local transit subsidy (paying a total of $1.50 to use local transit to and from a GO station) on top of their monthly pass.
Cheers, Moaz
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It depends how you run the numbers. And differs slightly for Danforth vs Exhibition.
But for new 2015 fares for Danforth. With Presto monthly cost of GO is $181.60.
And new 2015 fares for TTC, it looks like MDP (annual pass) will be $127 a month. So cost of pass+$60 = $187.
So additional cost is $5.40 a month. With 40 trips a month it’s 13.5¢ a trip – compared the 75¢ that other agencies seem to cost.
If you use the 2015 monthly pass cost (looks like it will be $138.75 – though I haven’t seen a final number yet), then pass+$60 = $198.75, so additional cost is $17.15, so 43¢ a trip. Still seems more than fair.
Steve: Your math is flawed. The GO-only cost of $181.60 presumes that the rider would not otherwise need to buy a Metropass or pay TTC fares by token/ticket for part of their journey. This is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
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But essentially this means the pilot project can only last for as long as the TTC system is still using the Metropass. Once the city switches over to PRESTO I can see a push for a capped monthly fare…I’m just not sure how that fits in with unlimited GO travel (within a prescribed zone) as per the $60 sticker.
I suppose all that is left is to hope that at some point my multiple PRESTO trips with multiple systems would essentially become “free” one I passed a certain threshold…but the software and hardware needs for such a system are mind-boggling.
At this point I use MiWay and GO for trips to “downtown” (basically south of Dundas St and within a short walk of Union Station) and MiWay and TTC for trips north of or outside of that zone. The time and costs and convenience of both options are generally a wash. If I lived in Toronto and only needed to use one system the story would be quite different…and it becomes even more complicated now if I’m bringing my kids along (once the reach the various fare payment ages of the various systems).
Cheers, Moaz
Steve: It’s called “fare integration”. The count toward your capped cost should be independent of the system you ride, with a possible exception for premium services as a separate category.
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Interesting situation with children under 12 still having to pay to use GO (and other GTA transit agencies). If we go with PRESTO on the TTC, would children under 12 end up deducting $0.00 on their PRESTO card when they use the TTC?
Brampton Transit children 6-12 have to pay $2.50 using PRESTO. Things will be getting complicated for the PRESTO now. Maybe more delays.
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As a South Etobicoke resident this is disappointing. Fare integration in our neck of the woods could make a real positive difference but also help reduce ridership on congested bus, subway, and streetcar routes that affect others closers to the downtown core.
Many downtown commuters take buses (or drive and park) north all the way to Bloor subway stations just to go east and head back south again. They unnecessarily add ridership to the northbound bus routes, to the eastbound Bloor subway, and then potentially also to extremely overcrowded southbound Yonge or University subway lines.
The other alternative is to endure the crowding and unreliable peak-hour/mixed-traffic transit time of taking the 501/504 streetcars which also reduces the number of seats available to frustrated riders east of Roncesvalles.
Fare integration at Long Branch and Mimico GO stations would enable downtown commuters from the Lakeshore neighbourhoods to take a short TTC bus or streetcar to GO, GO train downtown, then take the subway in the opposite direction of peak movements to downtown destinations (i.e. northbound rather than southbound). It wouldn’t work for everyone, but it would help a lot of people.
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Yes Dave it would be more useful and so would service to Scarborough and Eglinton but then people would ride them which is some thing that GO cannot handle with their current service. You are mistaken if you believe that this was done to benefit a lot of people. It was done for the photo op.
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The big challenge is whose standard to use when fare integration takes place, and how to cover (and remit) the differences between systems.
YRT Cash Fares are $4 while the TTC is $3. The Metropass is going to be $141 while Mississauga’s monthly pass is $120. And then there is GO.
One wonders where the cap will be placed. Perhaps at $40 per week, $120 per month and $150-200 if you use GO (based on the number of zones)
I’m just using relative numbers here since there has been no substantive discussion of fare integration by Metrolinx … But it is about time the public was asked how much they are willing to pay for integrated transit.
Cheers, Moaz
Steve: However “integration” is organized, it is going to mean more provincial money, and that seems to be the furthest thing from their planning. For far too long, “integration” meant only having one card against which each agency’s fares could be charged, but with no thought of reducing fares. It was seen as a convenience issue, not a cost barrier to cross-border travel.
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nfitz | January 18, 2015 at 10:08 pm
Robert Wightman has quoted text in my name that I didn’t say:
“Are you really that dense when it comes to the term used in many places in the world to refer to heavy rail rapid transit. If you are going to make cogent comments then perhaps you should do some studying.”
Those aren’t my words – this is quite disturbing, as whoever said that is being extremely rude. Robert why are you attributing such rudeness to me?
It was it your comment of nfitz |nfitz | January 16, 2015 at 3:34 pm .
If you didn’t say it I apologize but the way the comment was set up it looked like a reply by you:
“Benny:At Main Station, the metro is not jam packed.:”
reply underneath:
“It’s a Sobey’s near Main Street station. And a Valuemart at Woodbine. I believe the Metro is near Victoria Park.”
If you read it then you will see that it appears that you wrote it. I am sorry if you didn’t and I offended you but, there are only two comments between yours and Benny’s and none of them mention Metro or metro, or any other name. Are you telling me that the gremlins changed your comment or someone was impersonating you?
Exactly what part of the following is a mis-quote?
“Benny: At Main Station, the metro is not jam packed.”
“It’s a Sobey’s near Main Street station. And a Valuemart at Woodbine. I believe the Metro is near Victoria Park.”
I lifted the above directly from your post of January 16 2015 at 3:43 p.m. Further you say in your post of January 18, 2015 at 10:08 pm:
“Also, I don’t know why you and whoever are arguing about the usage of the word. Have you ever stood on Danforth and had an English-speaking person trying to find one of the mysterious entrances to the Danforth subway ask where the Metro is? It’s not the word that’s in use locally. Clearly anyone using the word knows little about local transit. (Or I suppose has some serious personality disorder or mental-health issues). But more likely is just ignorant about the city.”
It is a word that is in use in many areas of the world for rapid transit and while I am very rarely on the corner of Danforth and Main I have had people ask me in English in Toronto, “Where is the metro station?”
Steve: I am not even going to try to format this comment, but it is absolutely the last one I will entertain on this discussion.
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If you will permit this Steve — I violated my rule number one:
When you are upset about something ( I was but not related to this site) do not hit the sen button for at least 48, and preferably, 72 hours so you can cool off and re-think what you have written. I failed to do this and apologize to you Steve, and to your readers for putting them through this ill though set of comments.
Robert Wightman
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