Updated September 6, 2013 at 11:10 am: There is an excellent article by Stephen Wickens on his blog recounting the sorry history of Queen’s Park’s imposition of the ICTS technology on the Scarborough route.
It is worth noting that the ICTS cars cost over $2-million each 30 years ago, an outrageous sum. The price to Vancouver was much lower, well below $1m each, and the TTC order was used to funnel money from Queen’s Park to offset the development costs of the new technology. This is what passed for a “transit strategy” in the Davis government.
Updated September 5, 2013 at 11:00 am: My comments about Transportation Minister Glen Murray’s Scarborough subway announcement yesterday are now online at the Torontoist.
The original post follows below.
The prestige and success of the TTC, and of transit in general, depend on its being seen as constantly improving. A great deal of time has been wasted between 1969 when the TTC first proposed the SLRT [Scarborough LRT], through the failed premise of GO Urban (which should have been running in 1975) to the present. Only the rising cost of operating a car has driven up ridership during a period when the Commission’s common response to complaints was to cite its “service standards” and look the other way.
Despite the cost of fuel, there is a large demand for transportation in the Metro region which will not abate. Pressure for the completion of the expressway network continues at least partly because the TTC network does not address large segments of the travel demand.
If the Scarborough line fails, and with it the promise of comparatively cheap suburban rapid transit lines, the TTC will have set back its own future and the future of Metro with it.
Letter from me to Julian Porter, TTC Chair, June 12, 1981, in anticipation of a decision to change the mode of the proposed Scarborough LRT to the provincial “ICTS” technology.
In the intervening decades, we have been badly served by Queen’s Park, Metro/City Council and the TTC with scheme after scheme based on short-term political considerations, make-work projects and “who you know” transit planning.
Little more needs saying.
Steve Munro 
If they had listened to you Steve, then perhaps we would have had better transit in Scarborough and there wouldn’t be a need to change the system in Scarborough and perhaps more areas would have been reached by transit. Is poor transit why you moved away from Scarborough?
Steve: I have never lived in Scarborough, but worked there from about 2000 to early 2009. The location was a function of reorganization of job locations, not a choice, as I had previously worked downtown.
Remember McGuinty who promised a completely underground Eglinton Line from Black Creek to Kennedy and then join it directly with an upgraded Scarborough RT (i.e. no transfer necessary) to form a completely grade separated line from Black Creek Drive and Eglinton Avenue West to McCowan and Ellesmere? MGuinty promised this in front of the media with huge fanfare just before the 2011 election but as soon as he won it, he reneged on his promise (with a little help from his allies). So, basically what we were left with was an Eglinton line that would work like a streetcar from Laird to Kennedy and would also not directly connect to the Scarborough RT (another hugely inconvenient transfer). The next provincial election is looming in Spring 2014 and so as soon as the Liberals win the election, they will cancel this subway project (the Scarborough subway announcement was only to win the Scarborough byelection and the upcoming general election). May be they will hold another vote in the City Council after the next elections (assuming the Liberals win) and then they can say, “Look, we have to do what the City Council says and City Council says retrofit the Scarborough RT.”
Steve, do you think that the Eglinton LRT will be extended to the Eglinton GO station?
Steve: No. At this point I fear for the Eglinton line east of Don Mills (the surface section) as it will no longer have a Scarborough LRT network to connect with. Little prevents Eglinton from morphing into a full subway, and Toronto can kiss any suburban LRT network goodbye.
LikeLike
Well I see that the province is extending the BD up the SRT right of way to Scarborough Town Centre. Did anyone expect anything else? Hopefully this will make Scarborough residents happy even though it will serve a lot fewer people than the LRT.
I can understand why Scarborough feels cheated by past subways. Etobicoke has 4 stations, North York has at least 8 with a few more being built while Scarborough has 2 and a bit. CTV said that this line will have sharper curves than the TTC would like but at least it is possible.
I see Rob Ford has started to take credit for more subways without spending 1 cent for them. This line should go to Sheppard to make a connection with the Sheppard LRT. We don’t want to make anyone make an “unnecessary transfer” at STC. Perhaps the city will finally spend some of its own money to take it to Sheppard. It should only be an LRT but whatever it is, it should go to Sheppard.
I hope the province keeps the line on the surface or in a ditch, not a tunnel, to Lawrence, and then goes to STC on an elevated through the industrial area north of Ellesmere. It is a pity that it will only have 2 stations instead of the 7 the LRT would have. The line should be built so that it would be possible to add a station at Ellesmere and/or Midland without a major rebuild of what will be there.
Apparently Stintz and the Feds are pissed at Murray for lack of consultation but at least we have a commitment to have something built. We do, don’t we? If the Feds or the city aren’t happy let them put some of their money to improve it. It is not my first choice but it is better, and cheaper than the city’s alignment.
LikeLike
Agreed. Well, there is that quote about the consequences of not knowing & understanding history.
Cheers, Moaz
LikeLike
Kevin’s comment:
How about the ginormous cost?
It is, of course, immensely frustrating to see people try to re-start an endless debate about a transit line that is already fully funded and under construction. Just build the $%#@&* thing!!
Steve: Suppose that someone decides to “temporarily” end the Eglinton line at Don Mills. At that point it is completely grade separated, and I expect there would be a big fight to extend it as a surface line east to Kennedy.
LikeLike
Scarborough has been robbed by politics for 40-50 years in all aspects “City planning & development”. The citizens don’t have a proper choice as are always handcuffed one way or another.
Steve, I understand why you back the LRT lines. And although I prefer a proper subway (which has yet to be tabled) I always doubted it would ever get built more than 60% of what was planned.
I’m tired of Scarborough being blamed for this type of politics & being ridiculed every election when complaints from citizens are being completely ignored. Politicians have been sweeping their crap to the east side of Toronto’s rug for too long and it is now really starting to show.
LikeLike
One day, absolutely nothing will move in the GTA: permanent gridlock. Then what?…
LikeLike
Thank you for the reply Steve!
Are the tunnels of sufficiently high diameter to accomodate a subway? What was/is the diameter of the boring machine/s* of the Sheppard subway or the Spadina extension currently under construction? The Eglinton LRT boring machines are of only 6.5m. Are the Eglinton tunnels even designed to handle heavy subway traffic (i.e. structural strength)? One major cost of burying the whole thing was the river crossings or so was said in the media and it can still surface for the river crossings while being buried for most of the way. Alternatively, it can be largely on surface and instead go above or under intersections as needed but keep it on the south side of Eglinton at Leslie to keep it completely separated from traffic (better for both drivers and transit users).
The cheapest option may be to use electrified surface (GO Transit style) and/or elevated transit (Vancouver’s SkyTrain style) or monorail. Streetcars and BRT will work better on wide roads in the 905 areas. More and more cities are resorting to monorail as they are completely grade separated, cheap, fast, don’t need a lot of space, the new ones don’t need reversal loops, and can also make tight/sharp turns.
* Notice that I ask for the diameter of the boring machines and not the tunnels as I don’t know how much the diameter will shrink by when reinforced with thick concrete.
Steve: The Eglinton machines are a larger diameter than any other tunnels in Toronto. A subway train will fit easily. Stations have not been built yet, and changing their design for high platform would be a trivial modification at this stage. The yard at Black Creek would have to be redesigned for subway cars, but that’s not beyond possibility. The West Don crossing could go underground. The only reason that proposal was abandoned was because of provincial concern about the need for an EA amendment and potential interference by Council in approval. The East Don crossing is a problem, but only if the line goes that far. It would have to either be on a bridge beside Eglinton, or be tunneled through rock under the river.
The point is that if someone says “make it a subway”, it is not technically impossible, and through that loophole could follow the complete unravelling of LRT proposals for Toronto.
LikeLike
The new Scarborough RT subway conversion proposal isn’t a terrible plan, it seems to me much better than the LRT plan which involves deadheading on Sheppard Avenue. Closing Ellesmere, Midland and McCowan stations seems strange, but then again these are some of the least used stations on the system so I don’t think they are a great loss. Getting rid of the transfer and closing minor stations should reduce the commute time from Scarborough Centre to Bloor-Yonge by 5 minutes or so.
Steve: The only deadheading is for carhouse mileage, and Sheppard itself would be an active LRT line. It’s not as if a separate spur is proposed just for carhouse moves. Subway trains deadhead to and from carhouses today, notably between Kennedy and Greenwood.
As for time savings, spending $1.4b to cut travel times by 5 minutes is not exactly impressive.
LikeLike
Such an eloquent way of saying I told you so… If only they’d listen…
LikeLike
“The cheapest option may be to use electrified surface (GO Transit style) and/or elevated transit (Vancouver’s SkyTrain style) or monorail.”
I hate to tell you this, but on-street LRT is cheaper than elevated transit or monorails. Also, I doubt you can find vacant right-of-ways to build a GO Transit-style line for the Eglinton corridor.
LikeLike
Now if only the Stouffville Line had all day service, and a co-fare option was available between the TTC and GO, then people might choose GO over the TTC from Kennedy to downtown. This would allow the SRT to more easily become an LRT as there would be a ‘fast’ connection.
LikeLike
Whole idea of the subway was to keep the RT open during construction. Now this new plan takes the worst of both options and puts them together. The Scarborough LRT was never going to be true LRT with any on-street running, so what’s the difference? Now you’ll have a subway running on the same surface RoW and save a lot on tunnelling. Not a bad tradeoff, but my question is this … are the rails on the RT and the elevated sections in such bad shape that they would need to be rebuilt anyway if there were Mark I vehicles available? I agree with you — all of this because of that single transfer at Kennedy from one empty train to another? Why is it everybody complains about Kennedy but we don’t hear a peep about the torture of changing at St. George or Bloor-Yonge on trains that are already packed despite the fact that we have interlining tracks to take pressure off these stations?
Also, I think Karl Junkin said the grades would have to be reworked on Eglinton if it becomes a subway. I wouldn’t be surprised by a switch to subway either, because otherwise Eglinton will become the orphan line using orphan vehicles. It would be better that a single underground technology be used, but then I’m sure they would want to add in a wye connection somewhere at Eglinton or Eglinton W. to connect it to the rest of the subway network.
LikeLike
Awesome. Scarborough commuters get to save a whole 5 minutes with this stubway. Andrew, why don’t you comment on the time lost transferring from the subway to the buses at STC that people will still have to endure? Instead of getting LRT rapid transit north of 401, the subway is just an expensive duplicate of existing service. But, who cares, right? It’s a subway. That’s all that matters. Subways, Subways, Subways, folks! People want subways, because that’s right they know!
As long as there’s people like Andrew who only care about the type of technology, and not what fits best, we’ll never see a transit network in Toronto. It’s a hopeless cause, always was. It’s little use convincing people that something they know little about isn’t necessarily bad.
It’s all the more depressing, when you see the likes of Houston, Salt Lake City, and Denver pressing ahead with LRT networks, and getting more built in the time we squabble over technology.
LikeLike
Seamless Transit with an LRT System from the outer seams of Scarborough to KENNEDY Station, as the “Perfect Transfer Hub”, than transfer with your TTC Pass to a GO train that takes you downtown in half the time, while providing a “FREE DRL”. That’s what Scarborough Needs. TTC didn’t know how to transfer @Y/B. Metrolinx don’t know why to transfer @ Kennedy.
LikeLike
Isn’t the Eglinton line east of Laird a surface section?
Steve: It could easily become a subway again. That’s what Metrolinx wanted to build until they started to worry about Council sandbagging the EA amendment.
Also, Glenn de Baeremaeker mentioned in his ecstasy something about getting funding to ‘poke’ the new Scarborough subway up to Sheppard. Is this even feasible with the new proposal? How would that work with an east-facing subway running above-ground at that point?
Steve: It would likely follow the proposed LRT route east and north. A good chunk of that would have been on an elevated structure anyhow.
To me, the absolute worst part of this plan is that it doesn’t connect with the Sheppard LRT. At least retain some semblance of a network, guys…
LikeLike
Metro Morning had “man on the street” interviews from Scarborough. Both men interviewed were frustrated – but not by lack of a subway, but because of lack of a bus. Waiting 15 or 20 minutes for a bus that is scheduled to run more frequently was the complaint in both cases. Subways, subways, subways, that are built where there is insufficient demand are the gift that keep on giving, giving, giving. They need subsidies, subsidies, subsidies and the extra money wasted, wasted, wasted will not be available to provide sufficient bus service so that Scarborough residents will have true mobility provided by a fully funded and viable transit system. Freezing or cutting the TTC’s budget won’t help either.
Steve: Yes, those were interesting. One was a 43 Kennedy bus rider who boarded at Lawrence. He would benefit from the subway at Lawrence East Station, but of course the SRT already stops there. For some reason he is travelling south to Kennedy via the bus. The other rider complained about wanting to travel out to Beechgrove (east end of the 54 Lawrence East route) and getting kicked off for a short turn. The subway won’t come anywhere near his travel pattern.
LikeLike
The thing is you can call it anyway you want, LRT in a subway is still a subway. And it as even larger tubes than the subway, which is a good thing in one way, they can always upgrade the line to full subway. Now since they already have large tunnels, I wonder why they are not going with it right away…
What if the line gets immense success, and in ten years we need to extend platforms in all station and upgrade the line (another couple billions)? We’ll be stuck with it. It look to me like the Canada line in Vancouver, a small subway which is designed for a small town (like the VAL in Lille, France). Not much capacity nor expansion possibility tough.
The multiplication of technology is also very expensive on the long run. In Montreal, they have rubber-tired metro that is cheaper to built but very expensive to maintain. Like it was not enough, now they wanna built several incompatible LRT lines, and even a trolleybus network (WTF), at a time when ”cordless” electric buses are in advanced development… Ok it’s cheaper, but I fail to see how it will address transportation issues in a city.
The thing is that they never have any money for transit, but for new urban freeway that nobody wants, they will try to get them built AT ANY COST. Anyway planning and understanding of transportation in Montreal is so poor that it makes the Metrolinx guys look really great!
And on top of it, right now we’re stuck with crappy politics that doesn’t give a damn about anything except personal gratification. A little bit like NYC:
LikeLike
Steve, have you considered sending a copy of that letter to all concerned (the mayor, the minister, the TTC chair and TTC CEO)? I find it curious that Transport Minister Murray is suddenly a subway booster. We seem to be going backwards with transit planning, not forward. We have the worst of both option – SRT shutdown for several years and a even shorter subway line that adds little if any significant improvements to transit server out in Scarborough other than giving passengers for STC a single-seat ride to Yonge and Bloor.
I had the same thought regarding the fate of the ECLRT that it would morph into a full-fledged subway (ending who knows where). Certainly the initial push with the Scarborough councillors and the mayor was to have that line completely buried.
Phil
Steve: I have it on good authority that most if not all of the offices in question read this blog.
LikeLike
There was an interesting interview between Matt Galloway and Glen Murray on Metro Morning today.
The segment started with a reporter interviewing people waiting for a bus at Kennedy and Lawrence about their feelings on this newest subway announcement. Responses could be summed up as “excited because the bus service at that location is infrequent and unreliable”. How a subway in the same route as the existing RT would address their complaints about service levels on bus routes they will still need was not touched upon–it seems to me that not cutting/freezing the TTC operating budget would be much more helpful.
When the interview itself started, Glen Murray basically launched into saying that only the provincial Liberals were doing anything for transit and that the feds, Fords and council were responsible for all the wasted time and have proven themselves completely unwilling to put up any cash, then spent a few minutes accusing everyone except himself of playing politics. To Murray’s credit, he did not once use the phrase “skin in the game”.
To his credit, Matt Galloway did not let the Minister get away with changing the subject, and pushed him on what possible benefit going from a 7-8 stop LRT to UTSC to a 2-stop subway terminating at STC could provide. After having his bafflegab cut off a few times, Murray made quite a few strange claims in response:
1. The effect of his announcement was simply to change the technology used on a line and it is still therefore consistent with the MOU. (?!)
2. The plan still contains a connection to UTSC. (?!)
3. The map he showed was only illustrative of the concept, and the number of stations could be more than 2. When Galloway pointed out that stations cost money and asked for clarifications about how many stations would be provided in the trumpeted $1.4 billion budget, Murray responded that it could be two or three or four or more and that there was a 30% contingency built-in. This was especially stark next to his statement that $400 million of the original $1.8 billion was needed to work on Kennedy Station. (?!)
4. This will finally make STC the central point of Scarborough as always intended.
This whole thing is such a farce. About the only good thing about it is that maybe we can treat STC as a sensible terminus for subway (avoiding the one-more-stop syndrome) and have several LRTs branching from there, although I hold out little hope on that account.
Steve: I really had the sense that Murray was making up some of the answers as he went along. Karen Stintz has problems of her own an hour later. Matt suggested that this whole mess is her fault because she upended the agreed-to LRT plan (for which she had fought against the Fords originally). Several seconds of dead air ensued as Stintz really doesn’t understand how much she (and her buddy Glenn DeBaeremaeker) are responsible for an environment in which we can redraw the map every six months to suit current political needs.
LikeLike
Offices read? Does anyone in authority even “read”? More likely some underling, way down in the food chain does, who would be much more knowledgeable about the subject, but can’t explain it in very, very simple terms to those in charge. How can they explain the differences between heavy rail, light rail, and streetcars to those in charge, who only know about differences in engines for their cars.
Steve: As I said, I have it on good authority.
LikeLike
Then you build a surface LRT line on Lawrence Avenue from Port Union Road to Scarlett Road (yes, including the gap at Bayview). If you’ve noticed that the UPX isn’t helping as much as its boosters claimed it would, hook up to Dixon Road and continue to the airport.
Now you have great transit on Eglinton and Lawrence both.
Continuing this idea over time, eventually you have a network of many LRT lines which can carry enormous numbers of people, and which is resilient in the face of outages. Subways can be reserved for places where huge numbers of people converge on a relatively small area or along a concentrated route.
LikeLike
In other news, the relief line is stalled until 2040 with the bickering and flip flopping going on….
Sheppard, Finch West LRT are absolutely no guarantees.
Get ready for decades of inactivity!
LikeLike
Steve, which government(s) in let’s say the last twenty years got the most done for transit in Toronto? I grew up outside of T.O. so I didn’t follow the debate much in the past. Also to you have a view on how “final” this latest announcement is? If say Ford were to lose to Chow in 2014 and Wynne were to win could there be yet another reversal on the Scarborough file?
Steve: “None of the above” is probably a good overall answer, although the Tories (under Harris) were the worst because they simply washed their hands of it. Any credit they might get from the Davis era is long gone. The Liberals talked a good line, but were better at deferring expenditures than building. The NDP came into office in a recession, and adopted an overblown Liberal plan as a job creation tactic, but they didn’t do much for operating funding, the heart of transit support.
LikeLike
I used to go to the Goodlife gym at Kennedy/Lawrence after work, and I found taking the Kennedy Bus during peak was actually quicker than walking to Lawrence East Station, waiting for the SRT, and dealing with the annoying transfer at Kennedy.
Steve: And with a subway station, all you would save was the transfer, something that would have been substantially improved with the SLRT plan.
LikeLike
Actually, it’s not that surprising. The 43 has become one of the relief valves to help handle the RT capacity issues and has a decent schedule as a result. When you factor in the time it takes to walk from Kennedy to the RT station and wait times for the RT, it actually is competitive.
Steve: I am not surprised in the least, but similar observations, other than the crowding issue, would apply to a Lawrence East subway station.
LikeLike
Steve,
I know you’ve said this many times to me in person and on the blog, but you claim that people in politics and decision makers read your blog, but can we really be certain they read all of the comments too?
I love your core articles, but I think the real gems come when us (the public) come up with our interpretation and ideas and questions and rationale, and you layeth the smacketh downeth to most…
I don’t know if it would make sense for you to do a monthly round-up post about key issues brought up in the comments, but the more people see their ideas addressed & discussed and discounted, perhaps we’ll see more action? I just see ignorance across all parties coming in often — “well he hasn’t thought about x, y, z so his opinion is bunk”
keep up the great work
Steve: I have enough trouble finding time to write all I want without doing wrap-ups. The pols don’t read everything, but they do read some including the comments. No, this does not include Rob Ford, although I am sure someone on his staff does.
LikeLike
I’ll leave my comments to one issue raised. Fare integration.
I think the problem is at the other end of that equation. TTC fare structure has no basis in reality. A flat fare structure for such a vast network makes no economic sense and only hurts the very people that it’s supposed to benefit. The TTC is chronically underfunded operationally leaving people who honestly need or want to take transit standing by the curb.
When the region adopts a zone fare structure, supported by all players, then the underlying infrastructure will work as intended: slow, frequent stop transit for the last mile, fast regional trip for the backbone.
Steve: Toronto got rid of its zones 40 years ago specifically to address the inequity between downtown and suburban riders. If you think the posturing and wailing about “how Scarborough deserves a subway” might sound, just wait for what we would hear when we tell folks in Malvern that they will pay at least twice, if not more, what they do now to make a long trip on the system.
The TTC’s fares do offer a discount to frequent fliers — it’s called a Metropass. My effective fare is well under $2 because I make over 80 trips a month. Most are quite short and I do a lot of off-peak riding.
LikeLike
But the line is still not grade separated at Leslie since they decided to build it in the centre rather than the south side at Leslie (only God knows why). Or did they move it to the south side or decide to bury it till Don Mills again?
Why not launch the second set of boring machines at Yonge St going west so that the western part of the line (completely underground) can open much sooner and hopefully by the time that that is built, we will have a consensus on what else to build? After that we will have 4 tunnel boring machines free PLUS also a few from the Spadina extension too so we will be able to build subways sooner and cheaper should we decide to build more. Also when developers dig out for condos, can we not take advantage of that to build subway tunnels and stations much cheaper and faster?
Zoomer radio says gridlock in the GTHA costs $11 billion an year and if that is the case, then a lot of that could be taxed if there were no gridlock (people would be making $11 billion more an year). So, why can’t we borrow money from the Big Banks and negotiate a low interest rate and build transit at a massive scale and we can then pay it back to the banks (with interest) from the massive increase in tax revenues when the gridlock is no longer there? It will benefit the banks (more loans), the government (more tax revenue due to extra wealth creation from lack of gridlock), and the people (less time wasted in traffic and more incomes and less pollution which in turn would mean better health and longer life expectancies). Better health would also reduce the government’s healthcare costs.
Why can’t CN Railway and CP Railway help us out by building more tracks and charging GO transit to use those and perhaps at a later time sell some to GO transit (after more has been built)? At least we should bring CN and CP to the rail to see what they can do and what they propose. It will benefit all those involved (CN and CP will have larger profits, the government (more tax revenue due to extra wealth creation from lack of gridlock), and the people (less time wasted in traffic and more incomes and less pollution which in turn would mean better health and longer life expectancies)). Better health would also reduce the government’s healthcare costs.
Steve: Developers do not tend to dig out for condos in the middle of the street, and they also prefer to use their basements for parking. Yes, it would be possible to co-ordinate developments, but these are rare along the length of a route (just look at Eglinton).
There will never be “no gridlock” and anyone who believes that there will is dreaming. At best, if we build everything we can, gridlock won’t get much worse, on average, with some areas improving and some just becoming completely clogged. Your financial proposals don’t hold water both on their presumption of eliminated gridlock and on the presumption that vast amounts of development will solve our taxation problems.
Finally, GO already owns most of the rail corridors within the 416 and some in the 905. The railways are not going to sell their main freight lines, and in many cases there is no room to build more tracks.
I found a great documentary that you might like.
It implies that due to Toronto’s geology, it should be easier and hence cheaper to dig subway tunnels in Toronto but that doesn’t seem to be the case in terms of our very limited subway network and the massive costs and times to build even a little bit more.
Steve: The cost of tunnels varies depending on where and in which direction you are digging. Downtown (south of the escarpment at Davenport), is old lake bed and everything is a layer of clay over bedrock. You can see this at any construction site. Further north, things get more complex because of the effects of glacial retreats at the end of the ice age. There are lots of valleys to cross whether they have rivers in them or not (think of the hills on either side of Chaplin on Eglinton to Bathurst and Avenue Road), and the underground layering is more complex. A tunnel driven in a straight horizontal line changes the type of material it is cutting through constantly, and ground water is a problem in many locations. There is a limit to how high one can go without hitting existing utilities, and to how far down one can dig both because of the effect on station design and the fact that eventually you hit bedrock which is much more expensive to tunnel through.
Also why doesn’t TTC run some 36s to York University instead of 60? If they do so, then they can take advantage of the busway. Both 36 and 60 come from Finch station and it doesn’t make sense to go extra north and come back south to go the York University bus hub anyways.
Steve, why don’t you consider working for the TTC or Metrolinx or running for City Council to get things in order?
Steve: Working for the TTC or Metrolinx is no way to get things changed. The problems lie at the political level with the general attitudes to transit funding, operations and planning. At the political level, I really do not want to give over my life 7×24 to the problems of looking after the minutiae of a local ward. A good friend of mine made the transition from activist to council a few years back, and his life was consumed by this. I am retired and plan to stay that way.
LikeLike
Steve, can we not take advantage of the Lower Bay station to take pressure off of St George Yonge/Bloor by bypassing it? Also transit flow as well as private traffic flow at Yonge and Queen could be improved if the abandoned Queen streetcar station could be cleaned and properly repaired and brought to life. I hate to see infrastructure that we already have (and paid for) wasted.
Steve: No, No, No. How many times do we have to go through the issue that integration of service between the Danforth and University subways is no longer possible given the trains from Spadina and the frequency that line requires? As for Queen/Yonge station, it is very small and has already been partly recycled for other uses. What exactly would it do? Putting the streetcars underground would require expensive ramp structures that would have to begin well away from Yonge given the short blocks downtown. And all that so that cars could move more freely?
In my other comment above I stated, “Also when developers dig out for condos, can we not take advantage of that to build subway tunnels and stations much cheaper and faster?” That idea was derived from one of your earlier blogs where you (Steve) said, “When the Sheraton Centre was under construction, the TTC had the opportunity to dig up Queen Street and pre-build part of a subway tunnel. ” That quote is from one of your comments on that blog and the link is below for other readers who may be interested.
Steve: The Sheraton is an unusual case on two counts. First it is a very large structure occupying half of a city block. Second, it includes passageways under nearby streets that are now part of the PATH system. This would not be the case for new condo towers which tend to occupy small lots and stay within their boundaries.
LikeLike
I don’t know if was better when new transit proposals appeared every few years, or when new transit proposals appear every few weeks.
LikeLike
Will I, as a Scarborough resident accept a less than perfect but fully funded plan for a subway extension? (I know it’s really money recycled from Transit City) Hell yes!
I am no apologist for the Liberal government, but the point they are making is correct. Everyone is talking about building transit in the GTA but who is paying the bill? The Feds have been very junior partners in a few other projects and they have shown no enthusiasm for this one. And Mayor ‘Subways, Subways, Subways’ Ford is still promising things that he won’t fund.
There is $1.4 million available for this project. If the people wanted the LRT (and if public opinion wasn’t poisoned against it) we could have it. So are our leaders just playing politics with transit policy? Of course they are. But it’s our money and a lot of it, and so they’ll be a hell of a fight to bribe us with our own money.
So that’s where we are. A subway, of sorts, for Scarborough. Do we want a longer extension with more stops? Of course. You never know, the money may turn up one day, like the next time someone needs to win an election.
LikeLike
@Justin Bernhard
It’s not that Andrew cares about technology. It’s that planners and transitfans forget that transit is about people, not minutes saved.
I live in Malvern. Guess what? I support the subway. According to the TTC’s own display panels at the public consultation, the LRT saves 15 mins over today’s bus-SRT setup to Kennedy station. Getting rid of two stations and the transfer at Kennedy might save me 10 mins from today’s setup. Guess what? For the difference of 5 minutes, I’ll gladly take one less transfer.
And that’s how real riders think. Most of those who would have taken the SLRT/Crosstown would have accessed it by bus, using bus routes that were destined for Kennedy, Lawrence or SC stations anyway.
I’ve come around to the view that LRT does make sense on some corridors. I actually now believe that it would be worthwhile to convert the Sheppard Subway to LRT, to allow for a future extension past Downsview Station. But on this corridor? There is a case to be made for extending the Bloor-Danforth subway.
I hope this prompts a rethink of Eglinton. I really felt southeast Scarborough got screwed over by the turning Eglinton north. Hopefully, now they can run Eglinton at-grade through Kennedy Station right to Kingston Road.
Steve: As you will see from my Torontoist piece, while I am an LRT supporter, my position is that if the subway is going to happen, then it needs to part of a larger package of improvements in Scarborough, not just a quick hit to make it appear that Queen’s Park will deliver on a “subway commitment”. I don’t understand how an LRT conversion gets the Sheppard line to “Downsview”, and I think that you mean “Don Mills”.
LikeLike
Steve,
Regarding the subway extension (if it is ever built within the next 50 years), would it be constructed in a manner that allows stations to be added to the line even if the subway was already constructed? I’m thinking of something that was done in a similar manner at North York Centre.
Steve: That has to be designed in. Ellesmere is unlikely because of the need for a wider, deeper curve to turn east, get under the railway with clearance for higher vehicles, and climb to the elevated. The el sections have to be designed so that a station could be added and this is expensive with side platforms because of the duplication of access paths to separate platforms. Centre platforms require the tracks to spread apart and obviously they have to do that from day one. North York Centre was designed with a level section of the tunnel in anticipation of a future station. Frankly, I don’t think you would see any additional stations on the subway line with the possible, but unlikely case of Midland. That’s a location where major redevelopment would be needed to justify a station, and it’s not very likely right beside the recycling plant.
LikeLike
The stations on Eglinton will have 300′ long platforms but will be dug out to 400′ because of the need for “utilities.” It would be quite easy to extend the platforms down this extra 100′. So the stations are actually being dug out to 400′ or 4 car lengths.
Railway track comes in a few standard sizes one of which is 115 pounds per yard of length. TTC street cars, subways, the SRT, the proposed LRT lines and the GO lines that they own are all built with 115 lb rail. The main lines of CN and CP are built with 132 lb/yd rail I believe. The Eglinton line will be built to standard gauge, not TTC gauge. Whatever gauge is built the track will be capable of handling heavier cars than the LFLRVs.
Bombardier has a contract to build 184 LFLRVs for Metrolinx plus 14, I think, for Grand River Transit. If the province keeps converting LRT lines into subway lines what happens to that contract? I suppose 60 cars could be converted to TTC legacy cars but what about the Kitchener Waterloo cars?
A 4 car train of LFLRVs operating on a sub 2:00 minute headway could still carry a lot more passengers than is forecast for 2031 on Eglinton. It would be interesting though to watch a 400′ long train going through an intersection if the first car enters on the amber.
Steve jumps in: The TTC did not give away all of its option for additional cars to Metrolinx, and the proposed 60 added “Toronto” cars will come out of that, not from the Metrolinx share.
Because of the existing operating rules, one of which says all signalling installations must meet FRA specifications, it is basically impossible to run trains on a headway less than 10 minutes. The narrow platforms at Union plus the fact that many signal blocks are 6 miles long will not allow an operation of a headway less than 10 minutes. Don’t tell me what City Rail can do in Sydney or about European practises. We are dealing with a government bureaucracy and you never know when CN will want to run a 12,000 foot long freight at 60 mph to Barrie using their operating right on GO tracks.
LikeLike
The Liberals needed to win a byelection last month in Scarborough. No more money has shown up since they won it.
LikeLike
So, let me see if I get this right: for $1.8 billion we can get either:
1) a two-stop Danforth subway extension to STC that would partially use the existing guideway of the SRT. The Silly Ridiculuos Train would be shut down while the retrofitting takes place. The Danforth subway will also be cut back to Warden while Kennedy station is being rebuilt. Everyone will be riding shuttle buses to Warden for how long? 1-2-3 years?
2) a 10 km LRT line all the way to Sheppard, integrated into a new LRT Scarborough network with a good potential for further extensions into Malvern, UTSC etc.
Some (demagogue) pols have decided that people want subways and subways only. Therefore, they choose option 1), at least temporarily. I really feel sorry for this city.
Most people just want improve transit, be it by bus, LRT, subway or whatever. The comments on Metro Morning were revealing in this regard. Stick to the approved MOU!
LikeLike
This should be required reading for all members of Toronto City Council: Matt Gurney’s National Post commentary.
LikeLike
Gee…now what does that remind me of? History is repeating itself as we speak. It’s 1981 again.
Moaz: Thank goodness for interviewers like Matt Galloway. If only he’d mentioned the SRT’s history to both Murray and Stintz, so they could actually see what they are doing.
Cheers, Moaz
LikeLike
Sounds like the LRT vehicles could be the next orphan technology in Toronto. SRT replace with subway. Sheppard and Finch not on solid footing. It would leave the little stub on Eglinton between Laird and Kennedy with at grade LRT…
LikeLike
Hi Steve,
Assuming that the Murray subway plan prevails and the subway goes to STC but does not reach Sheppard, what would be a suitable location for an LRT station at Scarborough Centre? How could that station be connected to the Sheppard LRT line?
Thank you.
Steve: I am not entirely sure as this will partly depend on the design of the new subway structure. Integrating it with the bus loop would be difficult, and putting it underground would be (a) expensive and (b) would create a long transfer very much like the problem situation we have at Kennedy today.
LikeLike