Updated April 2, 2011 at 6:30 am: Additional details about the plan have been provided by Metrolinx. The dialog below has been slightly edited from email exchanges, but preserves the sense of the conversation.
Q: The Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) refers to both Black Creek and Jane as western terminals for the Eglinton line. However, these are over 1km apart. Where will the line actually end? How will the line connect with the GO corridor if it ends at Black Creek?
A: The exact terminus for the Eglinton line, which is in the Mt. Dennis area, will be determined through a future additional study due to the vertical and horizontal alignment (how steep the grades can be climbing out of the tunnel and which side of the road we will be on to approach the yard) between Black Creek Drive and Jane Street. The objective is to make the connection to the GO rail corridor.
Q: When does Metrolinx expect to have a preliminary design proposal for the section of the line east of Leaside that will now be substantially underground?
A: We are meeting with the TTC now to discuss the timing for the preliminary plans and profiles for the underground segment.
Q: The SRT replacement is described as ending at STC. Does this mean that McCowan will be abandoned as a station? Will the proposed right-of-way beyond McCowan to Sheppard and Malvern be protected to allow for future extension of the route? Is there any plan for an eastern yard so that trains would not all have to be based at the Black Creek yard?
A: The Scarborough LRT would follow the same route as the existing SRT and will include McCowan Station. At this time, there are no plans to close McCowan Station. We do see value in potentially re-using the McCowan yard for at least a layover site and we will need to study this further.
Q: Although the MOU states the number of stations on the Toronto projects, it does not mention this with respect to Eglinton. The press release specifies 26 stations. When will Metrolinx produce a station plan for the new line?
A: The exact number and location of stations for the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT project will be finalized as part of the environmental assessment amendment process.
We expect the Eglinton project will have about 26 stations along a 25-kilometre stretch, and we’re pleased to provide this as a single-seat trip for residents from Scarborough to the Mount Dennis Area.
Since the new Eglinton project has changed from the previous concept, the working assumption now is that the station spacing across the route is approximately at 1 kilometre.
We want to make certain that residents get the best use from the Eglinton line, so we are taking more time to study the specifics of the project to determine the exact number and best locations for the stations along the Eglinton line.
The finalization of the Eglinton line and the locations of the station will be part of the preliminary engineering and Environmental Assessment, which is expected to be completed in the coming months.
Comment: The 26-station count includes not just Eglinton but also the SRT. There were 26 stops on the Transit City version of Eglinton, not including Kennedy, and 6 more on the SRT. The new combined route will have to go on a diet, and the roughly 1km average spacing implies that some stations will be dropped. Throughout the Transit City debates, Metrolinx consistently wanted fewer stations on Eglinton, although at the time the underground section was shorter.
Q: Although the MOU makes reference to “LRT”, for certainty does this mean “Light Rapid Transit” as in the Flexity cars recently ordered from Bombardier, or is Metrolinx contemplating a return to ICTS Mark II technology once proposed for this route? This is an important decision as it affects the ability of the line to be extended.
A: On June 14, 2010, Metrolinx announced a $770M purchase of Light Rail vehicles from Bombardier, which included vehicles for the SRT upgrading project. We expect that we will need about 130 LRTs for the adjusted plan, but we will have to sit down with Bombardier and discuss the details. At this time, we do not plan to change from LRT to ICTS MARK II technology.
Comment: “At this time” are three little words that could do a world of damage to future LRT expansion in Toronto. Metrolinx owes us a definitive answer in the context of their Big Move plan.
Q: The Sheppard East LRT’s costs to date are chargeable to Toronto, but one piece of work already underway is the Agincourt Station grade separation. Is this going to proceed independently of the LRT project as a GO improvement? If so, will it be built with room for a future LRT right of way if that scheme is resurrected?
A: At this time, there are no plans to change the current design for the Agincourt grade-separation. The grade separation construction work that is currently underway at the Agincourt GO Station to separate the GO tracks from Sheppard Avenue will proceed independently of the former LRT project.
It is important to note, though, that this grade separation construction work is an important safety improvement for GO commuters and drivers that use Sheppard Avenue. This grade separation is a project that has benefits to GO’s operations and traffic.
Updated March 31, 2011 at 5:45 pm: The Memorandum of Understanding between Queen’s Park, Metrolinx and Toronto is now available. It contains a few items of interest, notably that the document is non-binding and that the Mayor is signing on his own behalf with hopes for approval from others.
I have a number of questions out to Metrolinx for clarification and will update this post when I have more details.
Updated March 31, 2011 at 10:55 am: The details of the agreement are now available on the Ontario Government’s website.
Original post from March 30:
Both the Star and Globe report that Premier McGuinty will announce the long-rumoured “deal” between Queen’s Park and Toronto on the future of Transit City.
Queen’s Park will fund the Eglinton line as an underground LRT from Jane Street to Kennedy Station, with an extension over the existing Scarborough RT line’s route replacing the RT technology. This project will cost $8.4-billion and will be completed in 2020.
Toronto will undertake funding for a Sheppard Subway extension west from Yonge to Downsview, and east from Don Mills to Scarborough Town Centre. This project will cost $4.2b and will be completed in 2019. Although this is touted as a public-private partnership, Toronto hopes to raise money from a Federal program for PPPs, “PPP Canada“. However, this program only has an investment of $1.25b. Obviously, much more money will be required from Ottawa if this is to have additional projects beyond a Toronto subway, or conversely the contribution it will make to the Sheppard Subway will be small. It is unclear where the $333m originally announced by Ottawa for the Sheppard LRT will wind up, but this should be clarified in the formal announcement.
What is quite clear in this shuffle is that Queen’s Park has decided to build something, anything on Eglinton as long as they can get shovels in the ground. That the line will now cost billions more than the original subway-surface LRT scheme seems to be of little concern even though “Benefits Case Analysis” was supposed to be at the heart of the Metrolinx Big Move. As usual, the political benefit outweighs all others.
What we have lost, at least for the coming decade, is any hope of a Finch west line, or a line to the airport (other than the premium fare GO-ARL link from Union), or a line to Malvern or UofT’s Scarborough campus.
Beyond that, Metrolinx and Queen’s Park must wrestle with the “Investment Strategy”, a fancy word for whatever new taxes or revenue generation mechanisms will be used to build the rest of The Big Move. Major expansions of GO, the proposed Richmond Hill subway extension (and all of its follow-on projects to relieve subway capacity limits), and a host of projects in the 905 are all queued up waiting for money.
As for Sheppard, the real problem is to make the numbers work out. I have already commented at length on this, and won’t belabour the point. In brief, $4.2b is a lot to raise from development charges or other similar schemes, and much greater densities will be needed on Sheppard than on traditional suburban arterials to pay for this scheme.
While everyone celebrates this new era in transit, let us not forget the TTC’s operating and capital budget crunch which I detailed in previous articles. None of this money addresses the needs of the existing system for ongoing repairs and renovation, nor does it provide money to relieve the pressure on service capacity. Later this year, we will doubtless see another proposal to cut marginal services “for the greater good”, but they will have to be much more substantial given the expected shortfall in TTC funding. A fare increase, probably a big one, will be needed to make up for the lack of a smaller jump in 2011.
In that context, it’s hard to get excited about $12b going to two very overpriced projects. For years, “transit” in Toronto hasn’t been about providing service, it has been about stimulating the construction industry and generating profits for property developers. These are laudable goals, but they must be balanced against the basic need citizens have to get around the whole city.
Postscript: As a side-deal to this agreement, the TTC will abandon its attempt to implement a separate Smart Card system, and will proceed with the Presto scheme developed by Queen’s Park. It is unclear who will pay for the rollout of Presto as the estimated implementation costs are considerably higher than the funding already committed by various governments. Maybe we will hear about that in Thursday’s announcement too.
Finch West riders lose out, of course, as detailed in The Star.
Steve Munro 
By the way, Steve
The map of the routes shows that the Eglinton line will run to Black Creek Drive, rather than Jane. I guess they do not want to touch the issues west of Black Creek Drive (among them the Mount Dennis residents and the question of tunneling between the rail lands and Jane St.) yet.
Regards, Moaz Yusuf Ahmad
Steve: Yes, I have sent a note to Metrolinx asking just where the terminal is supposed to be. The agreement talks about Jane/Black Creek as if they were in the same place when they are over 1km apart on either side of Weston. A related issue is a station linking with the rail corridor.
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@Miroslav
I would argue that a contemporary definition of LRT are essentially streetcars which operate like subways. This doesn’t necessarily mean they go underground (though it is a possibility), but it does mean it should have its own right of way for the majority of the route, railway crossings and/or signal priority, and stop spacing similar to subways.
In Portland, this is how their LRT system operates while their streetcar line is comparable to what we have here. The Sheppard and Finch lines, while in their own ROW, shared a stopping pattern similar to the local buses and it was unclear how they were to achieve signal priority, so by my definition they did not qualify as LRT.
Steve: An important point about “LRT” is that it defies a specific definition. Its advantage is that it’s not the same thing on every line, or even every segment of every line. This is the sort of thing advocates call “flexibility”, a term often reserved for buses because they can operate in a variety of environments. You cannot point to any line in the world and say “this is LRT” because there are always examples built completely differently.
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I love this phrase from the Ontario Government info release in the link in the update: “The City will be harnessing the private sector using innovative financing methods to fund the Sheppard Subway extension.” Translation: “The City has no clue what they’re doing and likely no chance of doing it, but thank God we’re not involved.”
What a waste of everything you could possibly name.
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Regarding Sheppard West:
According to the MOU: “the extension is approximately 5.5km in length and includes two new stations.”
Bathurst & Sheppard will obviously get a station. Where would the other one go? Wilmington or Senlac? Looking at density of that part of Toronto, it appears to be a totally inappropriate place to build a subway, given the current land use.
Steve: I believe that the second station is half way between Bathurst and Dufferin.
If the value of this subway route is in completing the “loop” between the top of YUS – is a second station necessary? For the cost savings alone, I can see it being scrapped.
Also, by my rough calculations in Google, the distance from Downsview station to Sheppard and Yonge is 4.4km. How do you account for the extra kilometer of track that is cited? An entire km of deadhead track seems excessive.
Steve: I don’t know, although they may be including some storage west of Downsview/Sheppard station much like that now at Yonge/Sheppard.
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The only good I see in this plan is that something is finally (or hopefully) going to be built along Eglinton. Before any subway construction begins on Sheppard I think they should deal with relieving the congestion on the Yonge Line first by building at least the portion of the Downtown Relief Line south of Danforth Ave. With both the Eglinton and Sheppard Lines bringing passengers to Yonge St from the east, along with the passengers already coming from the east on the Bloor-Danforth Line, it will just aggravate the problem of overcrowding on the Yonge Line. At least with the southern portion of the DRL It will be able to reduce the amount of riders transferring at Bloor-Yonge.
BTW, it doesn’t look like any transit improvements will be made for the Pan Am games.
Steve: And I presume you know the Spadina line won’t open in time for events at York U either.
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Steve said “No, we will see LRT trains trundle out to STC where they should have gone 30 years ago.”
Thank GOD. At least Ford is not a complete idiot, he’s just a fool.
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Brendan: ‘Will Eglinton’s mid-block stations survive?
Not all of them. The press release says “up to 26 stations” from Black Creek to Scarborough Centre. That means at a minimum we’re going to lose three stops on Eglinton. If I was a betting man I’d say Ferrand, Lebovic, and Ionview.’
I saw that, but this page says “The project will also include up to 26 new stations”
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Section 3.3f indicates that Toronto will be on the hook for any costs that step from cancelled work. How can we afford that? I read that they will be using 130 LRVs on the Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown line – 52 less than we ordered last year. Does that mean we’re on the hook for the cancellation of 52 cars? Wouldn’t that be a rather large penalty?
Steve: It is unclear what Metrolinx will do with the 52 cars. I can think of a few nice places in the 905 they might run them, Hurontario for starters.
Then Section 4 indicates that Council approval is required… what if council doesn’t approve it?
Steve: Who knows, but I suspect that Ford will manage the votes to bull this through because there will be no financial commitment on the Sheppard scheme yet, and some of the potential swing votes are in the Eglinton corridor.
Also, I still haven’t seen any suggestion as to how we’re going to pay for Presto..
[The following additional comment came in a bit later …]
Sorry Steve, I just found an article that answered some of my questions. It looks like it’ll cost (at minimum) “$49 million [based on what is] known at this point in time and then there would be additions based on how the discussions go with some of the suppliers” – that’s not even counting the cancellation of almost 1/3 of the LRV fleet (they speak about that penalty being overcome by sole-souring subway cars for Sheppard, but we all know that with this plan Sheppard won’t be built).
I’m still curious what would happen if council doesn’t approve it. It’d seem that this would (at minimum) make the city’s 2012 deficit would grow from 784M to 833M. It seems… bizarre.
Steve: You are not supposed to ask such questions of the financial wizards now in charge of our city.
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I was absolutely stunned to read the following, from the National Post:
Kevin’s comment:
A subway on Finch? Within 10 years ??!! I would ask what Rob Ford is smoking, but this type of fantasy clearly requires LSD.
How could he possibly finance it? His plans for Sheppard only work if 2+2=7, but the private sector paying for a subway on Finch only works if 2+2=770.
What on earth could possibly be going through his mind to say something like this. Does he really sincerely believe it? This is truly shocking.
Steve: After we finish opening Mammoliti’s brothels on Hanlan’s Point, we can open a head shop to dispense whatever the Mayor’s office is on. The City should make a fortune!
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I’ve read on here twice about what you call a “We know what’s best for you attitude.” I see it clearly written all over Rob Ford and I can name four U.S. States where Governors were elected who show that same kind of attitude: Florida, Iowa, Ohio, and Wisconsin. So that’s 5 reactionaries that North American Voters elected to office. Worthy rail projects were killed in every case no matter what anybody did to try to save those projects.
Steve: Yes, it’s amazing how that attitude among the supposedly pro-LRT TTC professional staff (and I have my doubts about some of them) triggered the same tactic in those who would dismantle the Transit City “legacy”.
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I hate to sound like a jerk, but I’d rather have Finch West and Sheppard East keep what they have right now (just buses). That way, a subway won’t preclude their chances for surface LRT once Ford leaves. Also, there’s reason to believe that access to transit would worsen for those residents if they actually do get their subway.
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@Brendan H
I do not see them removing the stop at Lebovic because it’s surrounded by businesses that people frequent such as Wal-mart, Canadian Tire, CIBC, courts etc. The stop at Ionview will probably be dropped because it is so close to Birchmount and Ionview itself it’s not worthy of a stop given low demand for it on the 34 now.
I would love to see a list of stops they intend to drop. I can think of quite a few including ellesmere station on the SRT when they run the LRT up there.
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I still don’t feel it is a great day for Toronto. Well it looks as if all of Scarborough’s people will continue to slog their way to work instead of having a great LRT in operation in two to four years time. Maybe Etobicoke people won’t vote for Ford in the next election. The sooner Ford is out of office with his bullish arrogant self centred behaviour the better. The damage however has already been done.
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OTerry said:
Regarding Sheppard West: According to the MOU: “the extension is approximately 5.5km in length and includes two new stations.”
Also, by my rough calculations in Google, the distance from Downsview station to Sheppard and Yonge is 4.4km. How do you account for the extra kilometer of track that is cited? An entire km of deadhead track seems excessive.
Steve said: I don’t know, although they may be including some storage west of Downsview/Sheppard station much like that now at Yonge/Sheppard.
Isn’t the storage track west of Yonge already a kilometer in length? If that is the case (and the distance between Sheppard-Yonge & Downsview if 4.4 km, 5.5 km of construction would suggest a huge storage area – more than 2km of track.
The original line is 5.5 km in length as well (including the storage track or not). Maybe they have their numbers crossed on Sheppard, just as they have their terminals mixed up on Eglinton.
Moaz Yusuf Ahmad
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If I remember correctly going back to the early-mid 1980’s, I read in a local newspaper while living in the Sheppard/Victoria Park area stating the entire 85 Sheppard East bus route would need an entire garage to accommodate the expected crowds on this route. But when the subway was finalized to be built under Sheppard Avenue, passengers levels shifted to Finch Avenue.
Does anybody think a subway under Sheppard Avenue was a mistake?
Would it have been feasible to put it under Finch Avenue or the hydro-right-of-way?
Steve: One must remember the political pressure to recognize Sheppard and Yonge as the centre of the known universe, and the machinations to protect the portion of Finch East within North York from redevelopment. This had a big effect on the choice of Sheppard over Finch.
As for the hydro right-of-way, aside from the problems of tunneling and building stations under this corridor, there is the question of whether the rapid transit line is intended for long-haul cross-city trips, or to serve local demand. A rapid transit line for local use depends on having lots of stations, and having them easily accessible.
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Steve, there is now a car on the train tracks! Is this April fools or a protest against spending so much ($12 b?) on so little…
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Love the SUV on the rails. Is that just for today?
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How exactly does Ford expect to get development charges along Sheppard Ave. East between Don Mills and Agincourt GO station to pay for the Sheppard subway extension? Has he even driven along this route? There is a lot of development here. There are apartment buildings, medium-rise office towers, strip malls, businesses, houses, malls etc. A lot of land appropriation will have to occur along the subway alignment before any new development can occur. The money the city will have to pay out to purchase all that land will eat up any limited money they manage to raise through transit development charges to builders. Even if they manage to pull that off (which they won’t), Torontonians end up paying in the end. Developers will pass the costs onto consumers and people who buy the condos along the route will end up paying for it. Basically, Sheppard will never get built.
As for Eglinton, I have my doubts if this will get built. I wouldn’t put it past Hudak to fill in the hole if he’s elected, which is a strong possibility. I think Steve is right in his fears of Metrolinx. I have no doubt in the future we’ll be hearing that the Eglinton-SRT mega-line will be built as ICTS rather than LRT.
I love Ford’s claim that there will be a subway along Finch in 10 years. The current plans have a subway along Sheppard and an LRT line along Eglinton in 9 years. The man can’t even find funding for the Sheppard line right now where is he going to find money for a Finch subway and how does he propose that this line get magically built in 10 years with no money and no plan?
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Carl says:
“I still don’t feel it is a great day for Toronto. Well it looks as if all of Scarborough’s people will continue to slog their way to work instead of having a great LRT in operation in two to four years time.”
I agree. I’d rather have an LRT line open in 2 years rather than the promise of a GRAVY TRAIN (i.e., Sheppard stubway) that will never come.
The sad thing is, this is what most people in Scarborough want. Ford’s transit “plan” and his approval rating are higher in Scarborough than anywhere else in the city.
I heard that the City of Toronto has to pay $50 million for cancel Transit City. Has anyone else heard this? Is this true? Does anyone have anymore details? Ford is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He bellows on and on about RESPECT FOR TAXPAYERS but cancels 4 LRT lines that are fully funded by the Province. In return, he is fine with the Province putting all of the Transit City money into one line (i.e., Eglinton) and wants to spend even more money to build a GRAVY TRAIN to a crummy shopping mall while leaving most of the people along Sheppard and everyone on Finch out in the cold with no ride. Where’s the RESPECT FOR TAXPAYERS?
Steve: Yes, Metrolinx has confirmed that Toronto will pay at least $49-million to cover the costs sunk in work done to date on the abandoned LRT lines.
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“I believe that the second station is half way between Bathurst and Dufferin”
Could the “second station” actually be the new platform at Downsview? Sheppard East is described as having seven new stations, which would mean they’re counting Scarborough Town Centre.
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Could the 5.5km track length on the Sheppard West project include a Wilson Yard connection? After all, the savings in deadheading from Greenwood by using Wilson instead was one of the selling points of a Yonge-Downsview extension. Of course, that opens the can of worms that is the capacity of that yard and when a Yonge yard would come on line.
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Of course it is interesting that the guy who said that he didn’t want any more people in Toronto during the campaign is now dependent on massive population growth to make his transit plan work.
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Metrolinx Chair J. Robert S. Prichard in the Post: “This is a striking moment that the largest, strongest richest city in Canada is stepping up and saying we can invest ourselves in building public transit rather than simply asking the province to do everything.”
What about the billions the City will invest just to keep the system running? I think this is a painful indication that ongoing capital and operating funding are just not on Metrolinx’s radar.
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As an Ontario taxpayer not living in Toronto, I am appalled that the provincial government agreed to fund needlessly burying all of Eglinton. (I’m not arguing that Transit City’s dividing lines between surface and underground was perfect, but it was better value than the burying all of it).
I wish the Province had had the guts to say that they weren’t going to waste the money building a line underground that would work on the surface, and that the funding was based on maximising the benefits to the entire City, not just bits of it.
The Province tells municipalities what they can and cannot do with its money all the time. That’s the way our system works. I wish they had done so here.
Steve: We can always hope that by the time they get to the outer part of the line, especially from Leaside to Kennedy Station, the attitude of Toronto’s government may have changed, and we can revert to a surface alignment. That said, I am not holding my breath.
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Steve said: “As for the hydro right-of-way, aside from the problems of tunneling and building stations under this corridor, there is the question of whether the rapid transit line is intended for long-haul cross-city trips, or to serve local demand. ”
Regarding tunnelling along the Finch hydro corridor, isn’t there already a major underground gas pipeline that runs along it?
Steve: A gas pipeline is much smaller than a transit tunnel, and it doesn’t have stations which would be hard to build under an existing field of hydro towers. Also, Hydro is much touchier these days about what shares their right-of-way, and what may have been acceptable decades ago may not be viable in 2011.
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For someone who promised respect for taxpayers, cutting waste at Cityhall and stopping the gravy train during his campaign, this transit announcement showed no respect for taxpayers who were looking forward to new LRT in their neighbourhood. Talk about waste, all the money the TTC and City has spent on designing, planning, open houses, public consultation, EA reviews for Transit City all wasted. There is still unknown waste of money to come as he cancels contracts signed for Transit City. The Gravy train has changed tracks and now carries Ford consultants, as he plans to spent money to do indepth studies to see what is will cost to build Sheppard.
His double talk or dance on Eglinton was a joke. Today it takes 28 minutes by bus to go from Kennedy Road to Laird. Vehicles on rails on the surface will cut this by 8 minutes. My underground rail system will cut the time in half. That is only another 6 minutes over the surface LRT, but at how many more million dollars. But most importantly how many more years before people can enjoy this — the province said the line would open in 2020.
This is a disgrace, I hope all supporters of transit and Transit City write the Premier and the Minister of Transportation to voice their opinion. It is an election year, the Province caved to a bully called Ford. Well it’s time for the Transit City movement to launch an attack on this plan and get Transit City back on track.
LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD!!
We also need experts like Steve and other to educate the press and the general public.
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Steve said: “A gas pipeline is much smaller than a transit tunnel, and it doesn’t have stations which would be hard to build under an existing field of hydro towers.”
Just to clarify. I brought up the pipeline to indicate that there is a significant problem with tunnelling mass transit under the corridor since it’s not just hydro towers and grass along it; not as justification for it.
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“Steve: We can always hope that by the time they get to the outer part of the line, especially from Leaside to Kennedy Station, the attitude of Toronto’s government may have changed”
But if the line is built from Black Creek Yard to Scarborough, that delays the RT which then has no yard until the Leaside-Kennedy connection is built either above or below ground. An east Yard should be built from the start, with the Black Creek and Scarborough lines converging on each other. The only other tricky part is that if the line goes from buried to surface four years from now wouldn’t that require new environment impact studies?
Steve: There is already an approved EA for the surface alignment. As for the SRT, the planned reconstruction was not to happen until after the Pan Am Games (of which the RT was claimed to be a critical part), and the rebuilt RT was not going to be available until late in the decade. The original plan assumed that Conlins Road carhouse would be up and running before the SRT was even shut down.
An east yard just for the S(L)RT, if one were built, would not be a full maintenance shops. The new plan effectively delays the date of the SRT reconstruction, and that’s going to be a challenge.
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Prediction: By 10 years after its completion the Eglinton LRT will be at capacity and people will say it should have been built as a full subway.
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Mark Dowling asks, “A lot of attention has focused on Finch and the impact of losing the LRT. Has TTC mentioned how the current 36 route is to be reconfigured once the Finch West station comes on line? Has TTC avoided a direct route from Downsview along Finch west of the Allen in the past to avoid swamping the peak trains which make it all the way to Downsview?”
Well, back when the Allen opened north to Finch, the 118 Finch via Allen was put into service. Ridership was dismal and the route was cancelled after a year or two. Of course, things have changes since the early 1980s, but I wonder if the TTC’s apparent reluctance to institute a Finch service running out of Downsview may be based on this history.
The east-end equivalent, 139 Finch-Don Mills, had pathetically low ridership compared to the packed 39 Finch East buses, at least when I saw it in operation in 2009 and 2010 (before the 199 and the change to 139 routing).
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Based on the reports so far, between $7.55 billion to $8.2 billion will go to the Eglinton line. If the Eglinton line does not spend all of the $8.2 billion that was previously allocated to 4 of the 8 Transit City lines then up to $650 million will go to Ford’s Sheppard subway extension that he wants to fund with magic fairy money from the private sector.
For the Eglinton-SRT mega-line, how much will it cost to purchase the 130 LRT vehicles? How much for new maintenance yards for those vehicles?
Is the Province and Metrolinx still retaining ownership of the Eglinton line? Will the fare structure be different for this line when compared to the rest of the system or will standard TTC fares apply?
I’m interested in the per km cost of this line but can’t figure that out until the other costs are accounted for.
Steve: By the time this line opens, the TTC will be part of a regional fare structure under Presto. The Eglinton line will simply be part of a larger network.
The cost estimates for the two portions of the line are $6.88b for Eglinton and $1.3b for Scarborough. No, I don’t know why the Scarborough portion is so expensive. As for the cars, they are already on order. The question there is what sort of saw-off Metrolinx will come to because they need 50 fewer just for Eglinton/Scarborough than they ordered. However, there are other LRT lines around the region and province that might soak up these cars.
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All this talk is of the Elignton-Scarborough LRT running to STC. Does this mean the existing McCowan station will be scrapped? Why?
Rob
Steve: I have a clarification from Metrolinx (to be published later tonight) that the line will actually go to McCowan. They have been saying “STC” because everyone knows where that is.
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While I agree that not building the Finch West LRT may be a let down, I think that starting express service by replacing the 36A with a rocket service would be feasible. During rush hours there are already branches that can serve locally along the route. It could also be combined with Brampton’s Zum service for a near seamless rapid transit trunk route (e.g. New Zum service: Brampton Bus Terminal to Bramlea GO to Westwood to Humber College, transfer to Rocket to Finch Station)
And there is ample land that could be appropriated near Comstock Garage (e.g. Warden and Comstock is basically unused land) to build a new depot. If we are going to run a line under Eglinton, it would make operations easier if the garages are close to each other. Besides, if you build a Collins Rd. depot, you would inevitably run into complaints from the neighbours who live nearby. So you can build a depot concurrently with the Eglinton line.
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“Steve: We can always hope that by the time they get to the outer part of the line, especially from Leaside to Kennedy Station, the attitude of Toronto’s government may have changed, and we can revert to a surface alignment. That said, I am not holding my breath.”
That’s what I’ve been thinking as well. By the time they complete the underground section, Ford would be gone.
Same with the Finch West subway Ford suddenly proposed. If Ford leaves office soon enough, the Finch West surface LRT can be started again, so in effect, Transit City would only get delayed by 4 years.
Until I realised that the Federal Government can very soon barge in and announce Ford’s subway dreams for Sheppard East and Finch West will come to reality, as they come up with funding to get votes for the upcoming election.
Steve: If you look at the pattern of Federal funding for the past four years or so, what you see is a systematic cutback in programs and amounts. National programs are now lucky to see $2-billion on the table (the gas tax), and the only other active source of funds is PPP Canada with a comparatively paltry $1.25b. The Feds cannot afford to be super-generous to Toronto both for electoral reasons, and because the cost of scaling up to comparable funding country-wide is way off the map for their financial plan. Rob Ford has to take some of his own medicine about not looking for tax handouts.
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Nobody has mentioned the ongoing extra operating costs associated with the new stations in the suburban part of the Eglinton Line. Even if the fare collection is automated, there still has to be a station manager (possibly covering more than one station); regular (or by TTC standards today semi-regular) cleaning, removal of garbage and maintenance of escalators and if installed, elevators. The capital costs of building these unnecessary stations is already included as a portion of the waste in the the original $8.2B, but the additional “gravy” will be legacy waste that is with us forever.
On a related but different topic Mr. Ford was asked where he was going to borrow the $4.2 Billion for the Sheppard line. While he attempted to dodge the question several times, he eventually brought forth his (inaccurate) contention that he has “saved” the taxpayers $67mm already. Even if he had not already wasted that money several times over, and even if a tax cut was actually a savings, rather than sinking deeper in the hole, $67mm represents only 1.6% of the $4.2B in question. Neo Cons never let previous failures (huge disasters) deter their faith in what will happen if they do the same stupid thing over again. Voodoo economics is alive and well. The numbers don’t have to make sense or add up. All you need is to repeat the same idiocy over and over to a willing press and a gullible public.
Steve: That $67m “saving” includes $64m of foregone revenue from the Vehicle Registration Tax. It is a saving to motorists, but not to the government’s budget which is where the gravy was supposed to be hiding.
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Alright. You’ll probably think I’m a complete nutcase for suggesting this, but has nobody considered the use of monorails? There are many advantages, including high capacity, grade separation, and low cost. In fact, use of the M-VI system made by Bombardier on Eglinton/SRT (all elevated except Kennedy-Midland), Sheppard (replacing subway) and the DRL (Eglinton/Black Creek – Eglinton/Don Mills via Front and Wellington) would cost $6.464 billion. So with this plan we get three times the amount of rapid transit for three quarters of the cost.
I don’t know about you, but I’m kind of puzzled as to why this option was not examined. Plus, there’s money left over to start an LRT line in the Finch hydro corridor and a rapid streetcar service from Humber to Union via Queensway, Lakeshore, the CNE grounds, GT railroad ROW, Fort York Blvd and a tunnel from Spadina to Bay. Instead, we get a bad a idea that cripples our city for decades to come. Welcome to Ford Nation.
Steve: Monorails have nowhere near the capacity you are claiming, and have the additional very significant problem of being an eyesore. Sure, the structure can be a fairly narrow guideway between stations, but the stations themself are a real challenge, especially on a narrow, built-up street like Eglinton. Advocates often show photos of stations integrated into buildings, something that is possible if an area is a greenfield, or undergoing major redevelopment. It also helps if the line is not running down the middle of a street. That’s not the case with Eglinton.
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When David Miller became mayor, one of his promises was no bridge to the island airport. It was to have been a drawbridge, allowing for boats and ships to cross the gap but stop access to the mainland and the island temporarily.
Currently, there are plans for a tunnel between the island and the mainland. An access that would not be disturbed by passing ships. A better access it seems to me.
Rob Ford’s phobia has lead to his current transit plans, mostly underground.
I think that with the current escalation of crude oil prices, gasoline prices, diesel prices, asphalt prices, etc., we will be seeing a new Transit City come out of this mess, but only after either the Ford brothers lose control of city hall or if the crude oil prices force city council to come up with a new plan. Hopefully, a better Transit City for all. The problem will be that because of the delay, there will be cause for much more arguments, discussions, and financial headaches along the way for everyone.
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miguel said, “Prediction: By 10 years after its completion the Eglinton LRT will be at capacity and people will say it should have been built as a full subway.”
Where do you get this conclusion from? Just because full subway cannot be justified unless the peak usage is 10,000 ppdph, does not mean that LRT reaches capacity at that same level.
A fully isolated right of way can allow longer trains and closer spacing. Three-car trains with 2-minute spacing can provide 16,200 ppdph easily (assuming 180 seated and standing passengers per car). Add ATC and that can be pushed another 25% or so.
I would add that for a fully tunneled line, pocket tracks and station “utility” areas should be built for the possibility of 5-car trains as was done in Edmonton. Then you are looking at 27,000 ppdph without ATC.
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“The sad thing is, this is what most people in Scarborough want. Ford’s transit “plan” and his approval rating are higher in Scarborough than anywhere else in the city. ”
Scarborough people want this, because as a Scarborough resident, I understand Transit City LRT plan did nothing to improve my commute or that of the other 600,000 Scarborough residents.
This new plan means less transfers, more rapid service, and room to grow in the future.
Steve: Fewer transfers? If you live east of the existing SRT, you will still have to make a transfer from a bus route to the Sheppard subway, although at STC not at Don Mills, so you will save the running time on the bus over that section. If we had built the Sheppard LRT, you would have had an across the platform transfer from the LRT to the subway at Don Mills, and the LRT would be faster than the existing bus service.
The SRT would have been extended first to Sheppard and eventually to Malvern. Neither of these was included in Ford’s plan, nor is it in the new Metrolinx plan, although an extension is still possible in the future. Riders originating from northeastern Scarborough will still have to get to a rapid transit line by bus just as they do today.
The planned extension of the Sheppard LRT to UofT Scarborough Campus won’t be built, and those riding to the campus will be on buses just as today.
Much has been made of the fact that the SRT replacement will be LRT and not subway, as if this somehow will slow down the service. The speed of a rail service is not a function of the car, but of the spacing of the stations and the delays, if any, in serving passengers at those stations. The S(L)RT will operate at the same speed as the RT does today, and it will through route with the Eglinton line. The connection at Kennedy will be greatly simplified by the new station design.
I don’t think many people understand that a Finch LRT really would not have improved the commute at all. It would still have taken an hour to get to Finch subway station.
What the TTC needs to do is start a large number of super express routes along the Finch corridor. This will really help people’s commutes. And it can be done at a fraction of the cost. This idea would require some bus or HOV lanes. But it would be great.
Steve: Riders on the Finch bus complain regularly about overcrowding and short turns brought on by buses being stuck in traffic, running in packs and getting off schedule. Putting the Finch service on its own right-of-way would speed and improve the service. When people talk about BRT, they often forget that unless the buses get their own lanes (effectively the sort of priority for space and at traffic signals as LRT would get), “BRT” is nothing more than a bus. When you talk about “super express routes”, you also forget that a great deal of demand on Finch originates at and travels to many destinations along the route. People are not all going from Humber College to Yonge. The more “super express” you make a service, the fewer people it can serve. Great for those who can use it, but everyone else is left behind.
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Monorails? That’s a laugh – anyone remember the Simpson’s episode Marge versus the Monorail? Hidden in some of the funnier gags in the show’s history are some uncanny parallels to GTA transit planning (or lack thereof). Rob Ford as Lyle Langley anyone?
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