At the Empire Club today, Mayoral candidate Rocco Rossi proposed that all of Transit City, except for the Sheppard East line, be put on hold pending a financial review.
Rossi may not be familiar with local issues, but he should at least know that Queen’s Park (and, for Sheppard, Ottawa) is paying for these lines, not the City of Toronto.
There are issues with Transit City about which I will write in coming days, but stopping the projects is hardly the correct approach. It smacks of simplistic anti-Miller campaigning — whatever David Miller did must be wrong and so we’ll stop, or at least slow down, the plan.
I will be generous and assume that the candidate may be badly advised, but this is the second gaffe of Rossi’s platform (the first is the proposal to sell Toronto Hydro), and I can’t help thinking he’s headed for an electoral graveyard.
Updated 11:30 pm: I am advised that Rossi is aware of funding from other levels of government, but is concerned about future operating costs. He might start by looking at the extension to Vaughan which is expected to increase net TTC operating costs after any incremental fare revenue by well over $10-million annually when it opens. The projected riding north of Steeles Avenue is lower than on the Eglinton LRT.
Steve Munro 
I don’t know why he thinks that he can win. He has not held any elected position that I know of. He should put his election plans on hold until he learns more about Toronto.
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Maybe he read the article in the Toronto Star today.
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I was shocked when I read this news on Google. This is exactly how not to get things done. We make a plan, spend years on it, and just as it is about to become a reality, a new “leader” arrives and puts everything on hold. This is part to blame for the city being 25 years behind in transit expansion.
I agree that financing and management needs review, but to put the projects on hold is the wrong way. Also, what is his problem with bike lanes? Bicyclists need safe access to the city beyond the downtown core. He sure will not be getting my vote. Selling assets? What good is that but for short-term gain?
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I was interested in what Rossi’s platform would be, because I don’t really know anything about him. Key word there is “was.” Combined with his bike lane approach, I have lost all interest in him because of this.
I don’t agree with the way Miller is running with bike lanes, but I don’t agree with Rossi’s either. The reality is that one-size-fits-all doesn’t work, and shouldn’t be promoted. No candidate appears to recognize that.
Of the declared candidates (of which I believe there are 4 currently (Joe, George, Georgio, and Rocco), none of them are appealing. I hope the race gets more crowded. John Tory must be getting a lot of hate mail for not jumping into the race.
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I disagree on your second point – he was the first one to get monetising assets into the electoral conversation and even Joe Pantalone, who claims to be progressive/left/NDP/whatever you’re having yourself, is talking about selling the City’s stake in Enwave.
As for the TC review, I wonder if he’s been gently pushed by the Province to call for a hold up because they can’t pay what’s coming due – a suspicion you raised yourself in respect of Metrolinx’ recent statements.
Steve: All I can say is that if Metrolinx sees Rocco Rossi as their great hope for a policy change, they’ve backed the wrong horse. There is a big difference between Enwave and Toronto Hydro. Do you really want the equivalent of Highway 407 sending you your power bills?
In any event, asset sales are one-time income. They do not deal with the structural deficit brought on by downloading. Of course someone who comes from Ottawa can’t be expected to know such things.
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Rocco Rossi also promised to privatise as many City Services as possible, including Garbage Collection. I wonder now how much those immature CUPE members who sang “Goodbye David” are now enjoying their potential future. I generally support unions, despite some of their loonier moments. Driving the most labour friendly mayor in a generation from office must rank as one of the looniest. Alienating the reactionary part of the public so they support the likes of Mr. Rossi might be a close second.
I fear, Steve, that your prediction regarding the “graveyard” may not be accurate. Lots of people vote without a true understanding of the consequences of their actions or even having a basic understanding of the issues. Unfortunately, the Rossi nonsense appeals to people such as this – who in turn are whipped into a frenzy by the right wing media – particularly the Sun.)
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Maybe Rossi’s trying to corner the Rob Ford vote.
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On the day Rossi announced his candidacy he talked about cutting his own salary. To me that had the ring of pandering to the right so I would reluctantly support Smitherman unless, perhaps, Adam Giambrone ran.
But let’s face it. Whoever runs will need big bucks and I suspect a lot of the bucks are already committed. I would hate to see someone like Giambrone give up his council seat to run and then lose.
I’d like to be as confident as Steve that Rossi is done like dinner but I don’t know. People seem to be in a strange mood.
Steve: It’s a long time to the election, and Rossi has not had to actually debate anyone yet.
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Amazing reading reactions in the newspaper to Rossi’s plan. They think that turning back on Transit City means Toronto will get subways instead. Wow, just wow.
There’s a good King Lear quote for this: “Nothing will come of nothing!”
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Kemi says: “Maybe he (Rossi) read the article in today’s Star.”
More discouraging than the article are the comments. Rightly or wrongly the coments regarding TTC articles have, for a number of months now, been almost unanimously negative, SOMETIMES with good reason such as in this article where the complaint concerns the gapping on S. Clair.
Notice also the agree/disagree boxes under each comment.
Steve: There is also a deliberate editorial attitude at the Star to make the TTC look bad, part of the anti-Miller, anti-NDP campaign.
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While Transit City is not a plan that I would 100% back, it is a plan that serves Toronto. Politicians always like to denounce their predecessor. However, there are developers who have already bought land on Eglinton Ave in anticipation of the Eglinton tram line. Condos are being built as we speak. Private citizens have already committed to purchase units at pre construction price.
We should not add uncertainty to people wishing to lay roots in this city. If Transit City can spur more transit use and bring transit to more places, it will be beneficial in terms of housing affordibility. Not everyone can afford $300000 for a 700 sq ft condo along the Yonge metro line. People should be given choices. Of course, if I have it my way, Toronto would be served by a network of modern ICTS lines.
Given that Transit City is here to stay, let’s try to make it more functional. How about extending the Sheppard metro to Downsview? This way riders do not have to crowd themselves on the Yonge line to transfer to the Finch West line.
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It is not just Rossi. I could easily see Smitherman doing the same thing as well. I honestly think this might be the beginning to the end of Transit City!
Steve: I am hopeful that Smitherman will be more measured in his response. After all, Transit City is part of a program announced by his old boss McGuinty. At least I will give him the benefit of the doubt until he opens his mouth, something he is going to have to do soon to be considered “in the race”.
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Wow…. if this guy is a contender… i’m going to get off my lazy butt and campaign for whoever else has a chance of winning!!!
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It is not an anti-Miller campaign. It is a campaign to stop the dumb and brainwashed from thinking that LRTs should be built everywhere (especially where they do not make sense from a finance and function point of view). You are definitely part of the “We Can’t Do This Attitude” gang and the reason why our subway system is dwarfed. ‘Oh there is no money for subways so Eglinton and Sheppard should be LRTs’ is such a weak argument and such terrible city planning. Yes, there is money for subways and we can get it!!
Transit City (which will not attract a substantial number of new riders) is a silly plan for a city that is still growing and a city that has not expanded its subway system to the fullest. Finish the subway network first and then build LRTs to connect to them.
Once Pantalone or Giambrone does not become the new mayor in October, Adios TC! :p
Steve: If cities all over the world were only building subways, I might agree with you, but they are not — they are building subways and LRT, and increasingly more LRT. The subway network will never be “finished” no more than the LRT network will be. Saying “finish” subways first dooms us to building one line every ten years or so.
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I understand he also opposes more bike lanes, including those planned.
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Steve,
I don’t want to solve the structural deficit by asset sales, and please don’t imply that I do.
I want to lessen the requirement to fund capital spending by raising debt. I keep hearing “but assets bring in income” – yes, but that has to be netted against the interest paid on debt not paid down by the proceeds of the assets, and then you end up with a few million on assets employed of billions. I’m not like Hazel, obsessed with being debt free, but the debt load on this city is set to hit $3.8bn in five years from $2.4bn now.
If someone were to suggest privatising Toronto Water, and I am not, the first reactions would be “Walkerton” and “407”. However, the public Toronto water not only allow the Coxwell sewer to degrade to the point where it needs emergency work to prevent the Don Valley being coated in sewage and pipes are regularly bursting, but the rates are being increased at a distinctly “407 looking” 9-10% per annum over six years.
Unlike 407 which could be de-tolled tomorrow by an Act of the Province and payment of compensation, Hydro is a regulated utility irrespective of who owns it, and cheaper power is no comfort if the tradeoff is in higher property tax bills, transit fares and ridiculous “service charges” like a surcharge on paying your parking ticket.
The structural deficit has to be dealt with too – but that isn’t an argument not to dispose of non-core assets. That’s an argument for having a city government able to deal with two financial programmes – capital and current – at once.
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I like the idea of Transit City and wish it could be used in other places (think Queen Street, at least the underground operation of the streetcar), but I also think that we need a combination of LRT (Transit City style) and subway like Steve talked about.
For example, I believe that the Sheppard subway line should be completed as orginally planned – i.e. all the way out to the Scarborough Town Centre. However, I’d take an LRT line that will at least be reliable and fast over nothing. That’s how I look at Transit City. Finch could probably support a subway – anytime I have been around Finch, it always seems to be a parking lot. However, the LRT will allow a viable option other then taking a car.
Rossi seems, from what I heard on the news today, to be pro car and anti-everything else.
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The Star has become a newspaper that is not only “anti-Miller” and “anti-NDP”, it is also largely anti-Toronto. The Star, sadly, has largely become the “Voice of the 905” and to the extent that it must tolerate the 416, it caters to the outer suburbs. The Star shows a regular and disturbing bias against the “old City” and does not acknowledge the importance of keeping the centre healthy. Ironically many of the Provincial policies that treat Toronto unfairly are also unfair to the entire GTA – including the Star’s beloved 905. Instead of realising that a healthy GTA includes a healthy “old City” and that the fate of the whole GTA is intertwined, The Star pursues a populist and divisive agenda that caters to the politics of resentment in the hinterland.
Steve: They need to sell newspapers somehow.
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This is all political posturing. We can operate the Transit City lines on peanuts … so this doesn’t make any sense at all. Why would operating fewer streetcars cost more than operating more buses? And, the underground Eglinton section won’t have station attendants. They need to get the shovels in the ground on Finch and Eglinton quick before the whole thing is cancelled, because I sense a backlash is brewing.
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Shades of Larry O’Brien.
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Andrew said: “… a campaign to stop the dumb and brainwashed from thinking that LRTs should be built everywhere.”
That’s a really awful comment to make about the public, Transit City supporters or not. Name calling and negativity won’t help you advance your perspective in the slightest. In fact, it will probably cost you support.
I sincerely hope that you aren’t Andrew Johnson, a.k.a. gweed123, from Save Our Subways (SOS). Really, no elected official is going to come within ten feet of SOS, election year or otherwise, if they think that there is the slightest chance that the media will link them to your comment here, or worse, a number of the comments that have been posted on seventy-six pages, and counting, over at UrbanToronto.ca.
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Jason, I have a good feeling Andrew is associated with that SoS group. They actually believe cancelling TC will push up the plans for the DRL. If Rossi has problems with TC, there is no chance the DRL will ever be studied, let alond built under his regime.
Steve: And the sad part is that intelligent commentators like me (pause here to polish halo) believe that BOTH the DRL and TC should be built.
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A few weeks ago I overheard a streetcar operator talking about politics with a passenger. They were saying how the TTC is underfunded and falling apart. Specifically streetcars breaking down. The passenger blamed the Harris days, to witch the operator agreed. Then the operator said “one of the biggest problems is Mr. David Miller” and went on a rant at how he practically deserves to be tarred and feathered.
I had to get off so I didn’t get to ask him, but why the heck to TTC workers seem to hate Miller so much? I’ve heard this anti-Miller talk before from other drivers.
I had to laugh hearing a driver complaining about broken streetcars, while at the same time trashing the first mayor to order new streetcars in 30 years.
If Rocco Rossi is any indication, TTC riders are going to soon discover how good we had it under Miller.
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In what way is LRT the future of transit in Toronto, when the TTC has demonstrated — again and again — that it is not a competent designer, builder, or operator of street-level rail? Rossi’s position on Transit City opens a debate that is worth having, however uncomfortable it is for transit supporters.
Steve: The problem is that Rossi will never move beyond asking why “LRT wouldn’t work in Toronto” when it works in so many other cities. Based on the way the TTC manages a lot of things, we could argue that public transit doesn’t work in Toronto. Too much of this sounds like posturing just to be different from the current regime.
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This man is dangerous and lacks vision for the City.
Sheppard Ave LRT will revitalize a pretty bleak looking neighbourhood of strip plazas and car sales lots.
There are many studies from leading authorities on the subject of LRT’s that show that LRT lines, because they are fixed, change communities for the better by attracting development.
I lwould prefer subways but the initial capital costs are to great
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The problem is that St. Clair has become emblematic of light rail construction in Toronto. It really doesn’t help that the project will span the entire seven years of Mayor Miller’s mandate. There’s a lot of frustration, impatience, and disgust for a candidate to tap into, even if it defies all wisdom. (Witness the federal Tories’ battle to control a crime wave that doesn’t even exist.)
If the problems operating St. Clair are a simply a matter of line management, it should be possible to make a dramatic improvement in a single board period. Maybe the TTC should make that a priority as a way of making the political bulls-eye painted on the project — and, by extension, Transit City — a little bit smaller.
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Operating costs? The LRV will carry more people than a bus, yet still only require a single driver. By all accounts, the net operating costs should be lower than the buses it will replace.
I think Rossi is throwing any anti-Miller mud he can find, and hoping something sticks.
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Concerned about Transit City operating costs?
Are there any estimates on operating costs of a new LRT line versus buses? I’d think that in many ways they’d be cheaper. Each LRT replaces 2 or 3 buses, so there is a significant reduction in salaries for operators. Some increases in maintenance costs for the track and wiring, etc.
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I will say this, if Rossi gets elected it will be the end of Transit as we know it in Toronto. Rossi, from what I can tell is pro car and anti transit. I mean He is thinking of getting rid of bike lanes and canceling transit city in order to make more room on the road for cars (bike lanes) as well as to save money (transit city).
This is going to backfire on him, people in Toronto like the TTC. It makes their lives easier. To scale back everything we worked so hard to accomplish would be political suicide. He can cancel transit city all he wants but he should expect to pay the price later on. People like the idea of Transit City but they do not like the extension of the subway beyond Toronto (and having Toronto pay for it).
Rossi should spend less time going on about scaling back transit, contracting everything out and focus more on the people of Toronto. Like I said, canceling Transit City would be political suicide, especially after what happened on Eglinton so many years ago.
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Rossi against people riding bicycles? Oh, oh. I hope he didn’t read the latest about a study on “Helmet laws discourage bicycling”, he may do just that. See this article.
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Steve: There is also a deliberate editorial attitude at the Star to make the TTC look bad, part of the anti-Miller, anti-NDP campaign.
That’s stretching it. You can’t blame The Star for the public perceiving the TTC to be providing sub-par service or having a poor opinion of they Mayor. That’s life. Why is it that when any political faction gets criticized they always assume that it’s a conspiracy?
Steve: I’m not talking about public perception. I am talking about Star writers being told to spin their stories certain ways, or having them edited to fit the overall plan.
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The community of very knowledgeable and intelligent transit advocates in this city had better start mobilizing the troops. Transit City is going to need all the support it can get and, unfortunately, I don’t think the TTC, since it’s become everyone’s favourite target (even if mostly deserved), will be able to save it alone. Please don’t underestimate the anti-Miller/anti-“left” sentiment in this city, which has been gaining far too much traction for comfort, by appealing to the masses’ natural selfishness. The Dems in Massachusetts have just learned a very hard lesson and we would do well to heed the dangers of complacency as well.
The anti-TC/pro-subway advocates are dreaming in technicolour, but it’s easier for them to be in favour of something that everyone agrees with on some level than it is to deal with the really tough political and financial realities we face. If Transit City is cancelled, Toronto will get nothing in its place and it will be another 20-25 years before anyone will feel like even thinking about spending more money here. Light rail expansion is key to the future of this city and somehow, we’ve got to get that message out and keep it out there.
I will admit that I am concerned that, as tempting as it is to be critical of everything the TTC does, we will lose the big picture altogether if we focus only on the TTC’s negatives. Current TTC failings should not be used to discredit all of Transit City, which is a plan for the future. Somehow, there must be a way to get folks thinking beyond their own short-term needs and wants, and see the potential in TC for the city’s future. With David Miller gone and Giambrone’s political career in question due to the right wing backlash, I fear there will be no political or mainstream media champion for this plan. Steve, are you ready to fully embrace your second career??
Steve: No, I am not running for mayor, but am waiting to hear what the policies of all major candidates will be. I worry that Giambrone is too much of a cheerleader for the TTC to be taken seriously, and he needs to distance himself from the organization.
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zb says:
Operating costs? The LRV will carry more people than a bus, yet still only require a single driver. By all accounts, the net operating costs should be lower than the buses it will replace.
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Not necessarily. You have to take the cost of operating the yard, maintaining the track infrastructure, etc. into account. I would love to see a full accounting of how much it would cost to maintain and operate a TC line compared to an equivalent bus service.
Steve: The word “equivalent” is important here. A big issue is the projected growth in riding on the TC corridors to levels that buses cannot handle. It’s easy to talk about current service levels (there is no room left for more buses on Finch or Sheppard), but we need to discuss this in the context of future loads. By the way, buses need garages too.
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Steve says: “Updated 11:30 pm: I am advised that Rossi is aware of funding from other levels of government, but is concerned about future operating costs. He might start by looking at the extension to Vaughan which is expected to increase net TTC operating costs after any incremental fare revenue by well over $10-million annually when it opens. The projected riding north of Steeles Avenue is lower than on the Eglinton LRT”
Interesting how Mr. Rocco Rossi (an Italian-Canadian) is so critical of the financial credibility of Transit City lines within Toronto but yet he conveniently overlooks the $2.8 Billion extension of the ultimate white elephant known as the Spadina subway line,…. out of Toronto into Vaughan,… an area with lots of Italian-Canadian residents.
Steve: I don’t think the nationality or descent of the candidate or of various regions has anything to do with this. Rossi simply doesn’t know what he is talking about. There are lots of Italian-Canadians living in the 416 who would benefit from TC routes too. The broader issue is whether TC is seen as transit for “poor people”, but subways are for the people who matter. That’s an argument that could get really ugly.
Yes, Mr. Rocco Rossi will make a “great politician”.
Ask yourself this,… IF Mr. Rocco Rossi is elected mayor of Toronto and is still mayor when the Greg Sorbara line,… err, I mean,.. Spadina subway extension to “Vaughan Corporate Centre” opens,… and cost the TTC over $10 million per year to run at a loss,… will Mr. Rocco Rossi do the Montreal mayor tactic with Laval and stop the subway at city limits until Vaughan (or York Region) starts contributing to the financial operation of that line.
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“The structural deficit has to be dealt with too – but that isn’t an argument not to dispose of non-core assets.”
The issue then, with respect to Toronto Hydro, is whether its yearly dividend to the city outweighs the interest relief from applying its sale against Toronto debt. We should expect about $45M/year from Toronto Hydro (although we got $116M this year, a large part of that was from a one time asset sale). So a sale of Toronto Hydro only makes sense – in strictly financial terms – if its sale will reduce the debt enough to produce $45M in annual interest relief. By my back of the hand calculations, that means Toronto Hydro would have to sell for over $1B.
Maybe that’s what it could get. I don’t know. But – strictly on a financial basis (realizing that there are reasons aside from finances that the city may wish to hold on to Hydro) – it isn’t an obvious issue that the city would come out ahead by selling it.
Steve: It is important to look at the wider picture. I am sure that if Hydro were sold, notwithstanding it being a regulated utility, it would find some way of jacking up costs — probably through fees for unregulated services it might provide — to customers. Hydro users are, broadly speaking, the City, and if we save on taxes through lower debt costs only to pay more for power, that’s a false economy. The simple math of the sale price is only part of the picture.
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I had a water tank on rent from Toronto Hydro. The portfolio was sold to Direct Energy and the rental has gone up 30% or more. Nobody complains much because an increase from 6 or 7 dollars to 9 or 10 is immaterial to most people – in fact most people don’t even notice. However, it is illustrative of what happens when the “private sector” gets its hands on a public utility. While arguably, electricity should cost more, the increased revenue should go to greener power – not the excess profits of a private speculator.
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I understand that Rocco Rossi is the former president or whatever of the Liberal Party of Canada. Is this not the group who brought us Chretien and the fiscal fiasco with the funding to fight separatists, then Paul Martin, then Stephane Dion, and finally Michael Ignatieff? With a track record like this why would anyone vote for him. He sounds more and more like a Harrisite parasite than a true liberal. I read an article about a year ago in the Star that compared the Liberal Party of Canada to the one in UK in the early nineteenth century. That party managed to go from always being number 1 or 2 to being a distant third. I think the Federal Liberals have a real chance of repeating this disaster.
I fortunately, or unfortunately, do not live in Toronto but in Brampton. I wish John Tory, who although he is a Tory is a “Bill Davis Tory” and not a Harrisite parasite would run for mayor. He, at least, has a brain and would probably do what is best for Toronto and not for himself. Toronto is just beginning to recover from the disaster that Harris imposed upon the 416 area and this idiot wants to duplicate it is spades. I hope Giambrone does not run for mayor as I do not believe he can win the election at this time and the city really needs him. My $0.02 worth from the 905.
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Karen Stintz (Eglinton-Lawrence) is another city politician who was in favour of canceling the Transit City project, however she dropped out of the race for Mayor back in the fall. Her stated position was that light rail/streetcars were not appropriate for Toronto and that they all should be built as subways. Of course, none of her statements addressed the issue of the sheer cost of building subways instead and where the required money would be found.
Karen Stintz was also in favour of selling off Toronto Hydro as well. Selling assets for a one-time windfall is something I’m extremely skeptical of. Assets can only be sold once, and once they’re sold, they’re gone forever. Then there’s the issue of what the new owner does and how they do it. The TTC in particular would be affected by any sale of Toronto Hydro because they’re a largest electricity consumer in Toronto and depend on Toronto Hydro’s infrastructure to receive power.
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Rossi just wants it out there that he is pro car and anti transit. I certainly will not be voting for this moron.
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I keep on thinking back on when the TTC sold its Gray Coach subsidiary back in 1990. That money from that sale didn’t last too long.
Steve: By the time TTC sold GCL, there was not much left. GCL had been selling off properties it owned around southern Ontario for some years to offset its own losses. All that is left now is the Bay Street Bus Terminal which is operated by the remnant of GCL, now known by a different name. This operation has lost money for years, and the accumulated debt to the TTC (thanks to money the transit system pumped into the terminal company to keep it afloat) is a substantial fraction of the value of the land.
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