Updated November 7 at 11:35 am:
The proposed site for the new streetcar loop sits on the east side of Broadview just north of Queen, and this would make the entrance curves quite close to the Queen Street intersection. Normally this is the sort of configuration traffic planners hate as cars would have to turn off Queen onto Broadview, slow for the northbound facing switch (with the butt end of the car still sitting in the intersection) and then proceed into the loop. A far from ideal arrangement.
The existing parking lot’s rates are 75 cents per half hour to a $4 maximum before 6 pm, and a $3 maximum overnight. At those rates, the atttraction is for long-term parking, not for local shopping.
The TTC has done without Parliament Loop for years and nearby around-the-block loops are quite adequate for buses.
A proposal many years back to build a new streetcar loop here for the King route was cancelled for budgetary reasons, and more recently Cherry Street Loop has been talked up as a turnback. Other than as a possible eastern terminus for a split Queen car, the need for a new loop at Broadview is hard to understand, especially at the expense of a local parking lot.
The proposed new parking site on the west side of Broadview just north of Thompson Street appears as a vacant lot in the satellite view on Google. It is currently occupied by a temporary building which was a sales office for a proposed condo that was completely out of keeping with the neighbourhood and was rejected by Council. As I noted in the comment thread, a smaller loop could be built using this land, Thompson Street and the laneway connecting the two. This would leave the Legion’s building in the middle of the loop on the northwest corner. Why the TTC insisted on taking the larger parking lot for a proposed loop, a project that is not even in the Capital Budget, I don’t know.
Original Post:
Buried in the November 9 agenda for Toronto’s Government Management Committee is a report detailing an exchange of properties between various agencies. One of these is the old Parliament Loop at King Street where an archeological dig has been in progress — this is part of the site of Ontario’s first Parliament Building.
In order to assemble the historic site for public use, there will be a swap of various chunks of land between private owners, the Ontario government, the Toronto Parking Authority and the TTC.
There is now a parking lot on the east side of Broadview just north of Queen, and this would become a new streetcar loop. Although this would be a handy place to short-turn 504 King cars (rather than looping via Parliament and Dundas), it could also be an eastern terminal for a split Queen route should this be implemented on roughly the current route model.
Steve Munro 
What’s the possibility of this happening, and is there any potential for an equivalent possibility in the west end around Dufferin or Lansdowne or Ossington?
Steve: A great deal of formerly vacant land near Dufferin is now being redeveloped. Ossington is a bit too far east especially given future high density housing patterns, and the lands on the south side of Queen (the mental hospital site) are now being redeveloped as part of an area master plan. There is a (former?) gas station site on the northeast corner of Fennings (one east of Dovercourt), but ideally any short turn should be at or west of Dufferin. I can’t think of any vacant land further west.
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“The City, with the assistance of the TPA, would be required to source alternative lands in the Queen / Broadview BIA to replace the approximately 39 parking spaces that were to be lost.”
Required?
Seems to me that the loop in question is likely to be another tight fit with consequent squeal and letters to newspapers because lubricant isn’t being applied.
Is the rationale for an offstreet loop (as opposed to sending a one-way loop down Thompson/Hamilton) that it can be used to layover cars rather than queuing up on Dundas/Parliament, and is this project linked to track replacement on Parliament?
Steve: It’s a fairly large piece of property, roughly the size of the Queen route’s half of Humber Loop. The wheel greasers work fairly well too — living near Broadview Station I am aware of that sort of thing. Where they don’t work is McCaul, which still uses a water system. From the 24th floor of a nearby apartment building, you can tell when the Queen cars are short-turning at 3 am.
No, I don’t think this has anything to do with the Parliament Street trackwork. That road is needed for many diversions and other short turns, and there’s no question of keeping it in the network. Also, there is a one-year lead time for special work, and assuming the TTC actually gets possession of the property in 2010, the loop won’t be built until at least 2011, more likely 2012. Also, it’s not in the budget, not that this ever stopped the TTC from making plans.
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Unless an on street loop is created at Dufferin, Peel, and Gladstone?
Steve: The problem with such a loop is that there is no street on which the streetcars could reasonably lay over except, possibly, Peel, but it’s far from ideal.
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For a west end loop, I seem to recall some vacant land around where the Dufferin extension is going. Would it be possible to go up Dufferin and loop right after the tunnel?
Taking a closer look on google maps, the overhead view would say no, but streetview confirms that the building just to the east has been torn down. There also looks like there is space south of Gladstone, but I’m pretty sure that is already approved for development.
Steve: The new Dufferin underpass does have provision for future addition of streetcar track. However, the lot you refer to (SE corner of Peel and Dufferin is (a) very small, (b) would require the loop entrance to be right at the top of the ramp out of the underpass, a very bad location to create conflicting moves between streetcars and traffic. Dufferin Loop already exists and is the logical choice.
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Once Dufferin is re-aligned what is wrong with using Dufferin Exhibition loop? The left turn should be a lot simpler when the jog is eliminated and it would easier for residents of the Beech to get to Medieval Times.
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Sounds like a VERY good idea to me to have a better looping arrangement in that area, though another possibility is to create a two way loop (serving both King and Queen cars) at the junction of King/River and Queen. If I understand right, Waterfront Toronto and the City are going to redo this junction and the green space around it and there will be no direct way up to River Street from Bayview on the north side of King Street. Traffic wanting to do get to or from King or Queen at Bayview will pass under the Queen Street bridge and get around on the new roads on the south side of the Bridge. River Street will continue south of King Street.
Steve: The TTC does not want a loop at River for two reasons. First, there is no place for a car to lay over. Second, the curves would have to be on a grade and that’s not good from a design point of view.
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Given all the trouble finding appropriate loops in the west end, I would suggest that the best long term option for the Queen car may yet be a single Queen car from Neville to Roncesvalles, combined with improved 508 service and the Dundas West 507 variant.
Steve: This is more or less what I have been proposing for several years, except I would schedule the 501 cars to Humber so that they could be short turned at Ronces without losing the connection to the 504/507/508.
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Surely by the time this new loop is built, the King cars will be looping at Cherry loop. Though it might be useful for Dundas cars as well which now frequently do a Parliament/Gerrard/Broadview/Dundas loop.
I can think of one good place to loop cars at Dufferin … that one seems to be a no-brainer to me.
Come to think of it, I know there is an issue with using Dufferin loop currently … but what is it? (Sorry, I’m sure it was mentioned here at one time).
Steve: The track south of King needs repairing, although cars do venture over it from time to time. Yes, it’s the obvious choice for a loop near Queen and Dufferin.
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There’s an old apartment building on the south-west corner of Queen and Dowling that is a burnt-out shell that should be knocked down. That would be a good place for a loop west of Ossington but not as far as Roncesvalles.
Steve: The problem is that Dowling is close enough to Ronces to almost be there. If it’s going to be a true “short turn”, it needs to be closer to Dufferin.
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Taking away parking for transit.
I am not holding my breath.
Steve: No, there would be a new parking lot opened in the long-vacant lot on the west side, just to the north. The existing lot is never full, and they don’t need as big a one to replace it.
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“The existing lot is never full”
Ah, that’s good to know … I always struggle finding street parking in that area – for some reason I’ve never noticed that lot. A lot more convenient (as is the new GreenP website, which now actually shows where the lots are!)
That’s why I hang around here … driving tips! 🙂
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Michael Vanner: Sorry, but that burnt-out shell at Queen and Dowling is being turned into affordable housing, which is probably a better use for the land than a streetcar loop. (http://parc.on.ca/edmond-place/)
Steve: At Queen and Broadview, would it be possible to create an on-street loop (similar to King and Spadina) via Broadview-Thompson-Hamilton? That way there wouldn’t be the loss of parking and the inevitable howls of outrage from residents and merchants.
Steve: Thompson and Hamilton are rather narrow, and a streetcar laying over would block whichever street it was on unless parking were banned. As I mentioned in another reply, the parking lot itself is never full, and new parking will be provided on a smaller lot nearby. That lot has been vacant for as long as I can remember, and I’ve lived in Riverdale for over 30 years.
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Wow, it’s only taken them what, 11 years to finally get around to finishing up this deal?
The reason why the TTC didn’t build/rebuild the loop at Parliament was that they were going to get this property on Broadview in exchange.
At the same time, I shouldn’t be entirely suprised. It’s only taken 8 years to get the museum at the Roundhouse to this point.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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If I may suggest the parking lot on Dufferin south of Queen at Joe Shuster Way. The only downfall it may cause noise pollution for the tenants in the neighbourhood. Or they could use the lot at south side of Gladstone (1171 Queen Street West). streetcars would enter and exit in the intersection.
Steve: I believe that the lot at Gladstone is to be redeveloped. Also, turning here would miss the connection with the Dufferin Bus once that route operates through the new underpass.
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so, if we are going to have a Queen car turning at the vicinity of Broadview, wouldn’t it make a lot more sense in the long term to have Cherry street operate as a terminal of the western Queen car, instead of a branch of the King car? Think about it, turning every 3rd or 4th King car creates scheduled irregular service, whereas simply extending the terminal of the west branch Queen route south doesn’t do anything. it would just take a little track down Sumach Street.
Steve: Sumach is a narrow street. Remember that the new Cherry Street is redesigned and widened for the streetcar right-of-way.
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“The existing lot is never full”
Street View begs to differ, alas. Good to get the lay of the land, at least.
Steve: Hmmm. Looking at the shadows, this is a morning shot, fairly early in the day. There’s also little traffic nearby. Are these cars that park to shop in local stores, or commuters? Intriguingly, the satellite shot shows the lot almost empty. I will keep my eye on the lot as I go by regularly.
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If you do, sort of, what Steve suggested, and have 501 cars operating from Humber Loop to a new Broadview Loop, and have 500 cars operating from Neville Loop to Sunnyside Loop, or somewhere at Dufferin, then you are essentially repeating an old route pattern from the 1920’s-1930’s (well, Broadview is further east than Mutual, and Sunnyside Loop was essentially in a different place than now, but the pattern is roughly the same). Why this was never kept is somewhat mystifying.
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I’d like to see how TTC are shoehorning in the loop since TPA will retain parking in part of the lot.
One other thought I had was that they could expropriate 8-12 Grant and essentially run the line straight through the parking lot. Short turning cars would turn up Grant and then left into and through the lot. This would only require TPA giving up one row of precious parking spots and there would only be one streetcar exit onto Broadview. The track space would be about 95m so enough to park 3 Flexities nose to tail.
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I hate to tear down old buildings, but Mark’s proposal makes a lot of sense. It eliminates what appears to a be a very tight turn.
Steve: The buildings Mark proposes to demolish are residential – a pair of semis at the end of a row. Although they’re not architectural masterpieces, you don’t tear down houses to sort out a property swap for the TTC.
If we are going to go into residential areas, it would make as much sense to use the vacant land on the west side of Broadview north of Thompson Street and access it via the lane north from Thompson. This would put the loop half on street, half in an existing vacant lot, and leave the carpark where it is.
I think this is a good example of a scheme that has been cooked up by various agencies probably with no input from the affected communities.
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Construction would shut down an intersection that’s already important (for the 504) and threatens to become crushingly important (if the 501 split is made permanent).
Steve: The 504 would go up Parliament and across Dundas. It wouldn’t be the first time this has happened (Don Bridge repair is the most recent that comes to mind). Also, Broadview would only be blocked for the time needed to add the track connections, not for the entire construction period.
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Steve said: The track [on Dufferin] south of King needs repairing, although cars do venture over it from time to time.
On mid-afternoon, this past Thursday I saw 5 streetcars within about an hour use the track on Dufferin south of King. The usage seemed rather regular and somewhat evenly spaced out. One streetcar let off a passenger in that part of the Dufferin loop that is on a residential street.
Steve: The track heave has probably been repaired since I was last there, but I will double-check.
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Hi Steve:-
I recall hearing from the powers that be on high, that the main reason why the Dufferin Loop is no longer streetcar friendly, (ie., no more west end exhibition services) is because of, now get this, civil disobedience on the part of owners of parked private vehicles, thus making it tough for transit vehicles there.
I guess tow trucks and a police presence are out of the question for the greater good, eh??
Dennis
Steve: If this is true, it has to rank as one of the lamest excuses going. My understanding of the end of the 522 car was a shortage of streetcar operators, although that was long ago. The problem with any of these type of stories is that they might have been true for a limited time, but become part of the accepted lore. It would be like closing the subway because a bunch of grannies with their knitting decided to set up lawn chairs at Bloor-Yonge station.
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Hmmm… could some of the residential discontent near Dufferin Loop have anything to do with the nice little earner many of them in that area enjoy by renting out their front lawns as parking lots during the CNE? Better transit in that area would demand the City discourage cars from cruising around to pay $20 or whatever the going rate is now.
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Mark Dowling said: “One other thought I had was that they could expropriate 8-12 Grant and essentially run the line straight through the parking lot.”
The idea makes some sense. However, with Grant being one way northbound, you’re going to have traffic headaches with short turning Queen cars turning off Queen onto Grant as well as them exiting the parking lot and turning south onto Broadview with such an arrangement.
It would work a lot better if the TTC were able to loop short turning streetcars the opposite way through the parking lot.
Steve: The biggest problem is that the path described (regardless of which way streetcars travelled through it) would hit Broadview very close to the intersection with Queen. This would make moves into or out of the loop tricky because the new 30-metre LRVs would block northbound traffic unless it were able to pull completely south to Queen Street while leaving the loop. A similar problem would occur with the back end of a car turning north-to-east into a clockwise version of the loop while its back end was still hanging over into Queen Street.
Please note also that 6 and 8 Grant Street do not line up with the parking lot, but with a laneway running behind the Queen Street properties that is used for deliveries.
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Well I think the new loop should go up Munro Street and then across the laneway behind the stores and beside to the parkette. Out of the way but with a nice park to wait in and lots of room for layovers.
(Of course you know I’m kidding, but you probably get the humour 😉
Steve: Further north, Munro intersects with Mt. Stephen Street. You might say I have my own intersection. They should erect a statue! But I am modest about these things. I would prefer a private car with lots of wood panelling, a kitchen and a bar, and my own siding in the TPA lot by Broadview Station.
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Of course “Munro Loop” has a nice ring to it! (Though I did notice a few weeks ago while they were installing the precast concrete streetcar drains on Church and Adelaide that they are all marked “Munro” so maybe that’s how some at the TTC think you should be celebrated. :->
Steve: My influence is felt in places both high and low.
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Steve wrote: “…cars would have to turn off Queen onto Broadview, slow for the northbound facing switch (with the butt end of the car still sitting in the intersection) and then proceed into the loop. A far from ideal arrangement.”
Wouldn’t the solution to this be to have the entrance to the loop at the north end of the property? Or would having cars leave the loop at the south end cancel this out anyway?
Steve: Yes. If the exit is at the south end, a new LRV could be left half across the northbound lanes while waiting for traffic to clear southbound approaching Queen. This could even create a deadlock blocking a northbound streetcar. Different type of traffic problem, but a problem nonetheless.
It’s important to think of clearance problems in the context of 30m Flexities, not CLRVs.
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Walked past the new loop location today (how I missed that parking lot previously is beyond me!). It’s hard to thing there would be much left of it …
Quite frankly, I don’t know why we don’t just put the loop back at Parliament … even if there’s an archelogical site underneath.
Steve: The loop at Parliament would be of no use to the 501 unless the intersection at Queen is rebuilt to include curves in the southwest quadrant.
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The Broadview loop could be used as a short turn location for both the 501 and 504 cars. However, if a loop is to be built for a permanent end point of the 501, then Parliament would make a better choice – Broadview is too far east of downtown to provide reliable service to the western point of the route (although if the 507 car is restored via Dundas West, then perhaps a split of the 501 between Humber-Broadview, and McCaul/Shaw-Neville would be a good idea.)
Steve: Part of the design of a split route is to deliberately have a terminal well away from Yonge Street so that, in a pinch, cars can be short-turned closer in to preserve service to the terminals. For Dufferin/Shaw, the short turn points are Bathurst or McCaul. For Parliament/Broadview, it’s Church Street.
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Steve wrote: ” Part of the design of a split route is to deliberately have a terminal well away from Yonge Street so that, in a pinch, cars can be short-turned closer in to preserve service to the terminals. For Dufferin/Shaw, the short turn points are Bathurst or McCaul. For Parliament/Broadview, it’s Church Street.”
That’s great but has two big gaps in it:
1) Downtown is where the problem is. I have ridden the 501 on several occasions through at least part of the downtown core. It is by far the slowest portion of the route.
2) Short turns on a well planned route should rarely occur. Also, with the intersection of McCaul/Quuen being a 5 minute walk from University, not to mention the 502 car operating along Queen (starting at McCaul Loop), if an eastbound streetcar “must” be short turned at McCaul, it is no big deal. In practise, short turns should be avoided, but the occasional (and I mean occasional) short turn is not going to put people out.
With all due respect, using the current trial split of the 501 car, Broadview is simply not acceptable for an end point of a car starting in Long Branch!!! Even Parliament, in my humble opinion, is too far east. Cars get short turned, in large part from what I understand, becuase the TTC cannot offer a reliable service (i.e. a car gets short turned to provide service in the other direction.)
Steve: If the east end of the route is Church, then you will see two effects. First, some cars will short turn eastbound before reaching downtown, thereby defeating their purpose. Second, if few cars can short turn at the east end of the line, they will all short turn in the west, and many “Long Branch” cars will be lucky to reach their terminus.
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May I suggest 38 Broadview (at the foot of Broadview and Sunlight/Eastern)? I know there is a parking lot there and some business there, but it could provide some new service to some of the residents nearby.
But in light of what I have been reading this is one topic that will NEVER GO AWAY! I’m putting something together that may help a bit.
Steve: Not a bad site, although the Eastern/Broadview/Sunlight intersection might have to be rearranged. I rather like the idea of “501 Sunlight Park” asa destination.
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The Parliament loop was sold off as part of the plan to get the First Parliament site into public hands (now 3/4 of it is). The archaeological dig was conducted prior to the construction of a new Porsche showroom (to replace the one at Front/Berkeley that is now renting from the Ontario Heritage Foundation and whose lease apparently expires on December 31, 2009); construction of this new building started last week. However desirable it might be to resurrect the Parliament loop it’s simply no longer an option.
Adding the additional curve when the Parliament/Queen junction is rebuilt (planned for 2010). Would this make it another Grand Union?
Steve: 7/8. It is missing a south-to-east.
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I came up with idea for trials:
500 BEACH >> MCCAUL TO NEVILLE PARK
501 QUEEN >> CHURCH TO HUMBER LOOP
507 LONG BRANCH >> LONG BRANCH GO STN TO HUMBER LOOP WITH SOME TRIPS GOING TO DUNDAS WEST STN
512 ST CLAIR >> RUNNYMEDE (FUTURE TERMINUS) / KEELE TO ST CLAIR STN
with no other changes to the other routes.
Steve: The problem with using McCaul and Church as downtown destinations is that this guarantees short turns that will disservice people. Already, we see 502 cars that are supposed to go to McCaul short turned via Church and Victoria leaving downtown empty on an outbound trip. Alternately, if the edict were “no short turns downtown” we would see lots of short turns outbound at Woodbine and Sunnyside. The latter would break the link to a service through to Long Branch except for whatever 507s wandered in to Roncesvalles.
The whole point of the overlaps is to preserve connections for through trips even when there are short turns.
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Toronto Streetcars says:
November 9, 2009 at 12:03 am
‘Steve wrote: ” Part of the design of a split route is to deliberately have a terminal well away from Yonge Street so that, in a pinch, cars can be short-turned closer in to preserve service to the terminals. For Dufferin/Shaw, the short turn points are Bathurst or McCaul. For Parliament/Broadview, it’s Church Street.”
“That’s great but has two big gaps in it:
“1) Downtown is where the problem is. I have ridden the 501 on several occasions through at least part of the downtown core. It is by far the slowest portion of the route.
“2) Short turns on a well planned route should rarely occur. Also, with the intersection of McCaul/Queen being a 5 minute walk from University, not to mention the 502 car operating along Queen (starting at McCaul Loop), if an eastbound streetcar “must” be short turned at McCaul, it is no big deal. In practise, short turns should be avoided, but the occasional (and I mean occasional) short turn is not going to put people out.”
It does not matter how well planned out a route is; you cannot control traffic and its effect on the line. When I was in Toronto a few weeks ago an over width low bed trailer parked on Charlotte from 8:00 a.m. until 11:00 and completely blocked the loop. All “King” service had to go to Queen’s Quay. After it finally loaded its crane it went east on King to Simcoe and all the westbound King service had to be held until it reached Simcoe. The TTC cannot control or plan for that. Though I don’t know why they could not move this thing between 2:00 and 5:00 in the morning.
Steve: This is response to various writers’ comments above.
Cranes do not load on Charlotte Street every day of the week, and this type of activity normally requires advance planning, street permits, etc. I could joke that the TTC might send Special Constables to harrass them, but they have no authority over this sort of thing.
If the line is blocked the line is blocked, and it doesn’t matter what route structure you have in place. Yes downtown is the slowest part of the route. That’s why the overlap is needed — to compensate for the delays when they occur while preserving the connection between the west and and east end services.
If you’re counting on the 502 filling gaps, don’t. It is scheduled to run every 15 minutes in the PM peak, but much longer gaps can occur especially when cars are missing or are short turned westbound at Church returning east from Victoria, not York (and even that misses University). The 502 and 503 should be combined as one route, but that’s a separate discussion.
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And if Broadview is used as the eastern terminus, there will still be a lot of short turns simply because the route from Long Branch to Broadview is so long, and becuase it passes thorugh downtown.
If cars don’t have to go through as much of downtown (where the problem is on the 501), then short turns are not a big problem. And if Church is used, that helps (again, McCaul/Queen is only a five minute walk from University and the starting point of the 502.) Yonge Street is not the world.
I still say a restored 507 car (to Dundas West), with the 501 split between Humber/Broadview and McCaul/Neville will do a lot better then the current trial split of the 501.
Steve: You are duplicating what you have already written, and I have responded.
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Well, then, it’s decided. Re-introduce the 507 and run it to Dundas West Stn. Problem solved. How simple.
Anybody seen Men Who Stare At Goats yet? Any good?
Steve: You will have to talk to the TTC about the 507 who complain about “my” 507 proposal (to me as recently as last Thursday), but never explain why it won’t work.
I have not seen that film yet, but didn’t hear much positive buzz about it at the film festival.
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Just so we’re all clear (and in case anybody from these streets stumble across this discussion) I don’t enjoy the notion of swinging a wrecking ball through peoples’ pride and joy 🙂
I’ve come to agree with Steve’s point (the more northerly loop makes sense) and in some ways makes me wonder if TPA is up to something with this swap. One alternative I’ve been looking at is a laneway parallel to Dundas on the SW corner with Broadview, but again a residence would have to be demolished and only one Flexity would likely be able to “park” without blocking access and I think the TTC are looking for a stacking point (which would make Thompson also less than ideal).
The point re: capital budget is also important – the CB cuts just happened and now TTC are trying to tack things on ahead of stuff that got cut? Is this “above the line” now?
Steve: Building the new loop isn’t even in the capital budget. This is the sort of thing that just appears out of nowhere. The property acquisition is free because it’s a swap for Parliament Loop, but the special work and installation is another matter. It will probably just be buried in the catch-all allowance for future work.
Here’s the real question: Why did Park Lawn Loop need an EA, and this swap seems to be flying completely under the radar?
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Steve said: “You will have to talk to the TTC about the 507 who complain about “my” 507 proposal (to me as recently as last Thursday), but never explain why it won’t work.”
They can’t explain why it won’t work because there IS no reason why it won’t work. Reminds me of my submission, supported by Howard Moscoe, ten years ago for re-routing 104 FAYWOOD into Downsview Stn. It was sent to further study, and then morphed into something totally unrecognizable before it was shot down. Lo and behold: ten years later it is implemented virtually as had originally been submitted.
How many years have you been touting the 507 to Dundas West Stn? Maybe it’s almost time. Perhaps they figure, if they wait long enough, they can claim it as an original idea. For goodness sake, it’s not like these are copyrighted ideas!!!!
Steve: You will be amused to know that the Charlotte Street loop was first proposed by Streetcars For Toronto in 1974 (I still have my original drawing of the then-proposed Spadina LRT). The line itself took rather a long time to implement, and the TTC had wanted to put the streetcar loop in Clarence Square because that’s where the buses went.
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“The line itself took rather a long time to implement, and the TTC had wanted to put the streetcar loop in Clarence Square because that’s where the buses went.”
Oh, I remember! And even as a ten-year-old, I thought “Really? They’re going to either ruin the park or try to loop it on street (a NARROW street) and disturb the neighbors? Why can’t it go to Queen’s Quay”? But what does a ten-year-old streetcar fan know?
IF they had gone by the original Streetcars for Toronto plan, they wouldn’t have wasted a fortune on the underground loop(s) either. How long did the TTC hold on to the parcel of land just north of Spadina Stn. bus loop for potential streetcar operation?
I seem to also recall that another potential site for a southern loop was the gas station at the south-east corner of King and Spadina. The excuse I remember hearing for not building that loop was that the company that owned the gas station refused to sell because it was their most profitable station in the downtown core.
Steve: That gas station has a brand new LCBO sitting on it, to the considerable displeasure of Christopher Hume in the Star. As for the north end, to be fair, the loop we proposed would have been very tight especially for the planned newer LRVs. It would have been difficult to build a proper surface loop in the manner of Bathurst Station without knocking down more houses.
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The point of having all the branches run through downtown, if I’m not mistaken, is that the majority of people are headed there. So even if it is slow, that’s because of all the people there, ergo more people headed there.. and it can be painful, but you know to expect it, so why complain?
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