For three years, we have pretended that the Spadina Subway extension was a worthwhile project. We hoped that lobbyists from York University and their pals at Queen’s Park would look kindly on poor little Toronto. Maybe they would give us more powers in a City of Toronto Act. Maybe they would actually start paying for social services that are really a provincial responsibility. Maybe they would give us better, ongoing funding for transit.
Three years of tugging our forelocks and saying “please, sir, we want some more” were a total waste of time. All of the transit spending and social services budget relief go to the 905 and Toronto gets nothing.
Toronto has new taxing powers, and it should use them. Build the city with the “revenue tools” we have and stop being so dependent on other governments.
We have been duped into an unworkable formula of 1/3 shares by the federal, provincial and municipal governments. This makes every project, every funding request, hostage to federal and provincial whims most of which avoid spending on Toronto. Yes, it’s outrageous that we get less transit funding than cities in any other major country, but we should stop holding our breath for this to change.
Now Toronto needs to make its spending priorities fit a Toronto agenda, not one for Queen’s Park.
The Spadina Subway extension exists for two reasons:
- The combined force of York University’s lobbying and the Finance Minister’s desire to see a subway into his riding.
- The long-standing resistance of the TTC to examine and promote any alternatives to subway extensions.
Any realistic examination of “value for money” would have killed this line, and especially the extension into Vaughan, long ago. Any proper examination of alternatives would have examined an extensive network of LRT, busways and commuter rail to serve this sector. That debate hides in back corridors because nobody in power wants to challenge the inevitability of a subway to York University and beyond, nobody wants to support a fair analysis of alternatives.
Toronto should withdraw support for the Spadina Subway immediately.
Steve Munro 
I am so with you its not even funny. I actually suggested this over at James Bow a little while ago (http://www.bowjamesbow.ca/2007/03/05/strange_bedfell.shtml):
Well if Bill Davis had chosen to hang on for another election (which odds are he would have won) we would have Network 2011 and other improvements.
Instead we have what we have—which sucks. From an uncompleted Sheppard Line (instead of a much more useful Downtown Relief Line) to a Spadina extension (instead of Bow’s 3 points, and even if you hit the 4th guess what? Downtown Relief Line would be the best subway option) to a lousy 20% subsidy (Montreal and New York? 40% subsidy) meaning high fares and poor service which is actually dropping.
The problem is that McGunity already owns the 416 and John Tory has no hope for the 416. Therefore a mass transit system that would actually help Toronto is reduced to a lousy pair of subway stops for yet another subsidized subway line.
At this point if I was the TTC and the City of Toronto I’d announce the following:
A categorical refusal to build the subway expansion until good repair, service, and network LRT/BRT line needs are met.
A couple million on good PR (they could get GO and VIVA on side for the 905 region I imagine) and they win that fight in every newspaper in the land. It’s the easiest damn campaign ever—you show shining new empty subways rolling through York University and cut to a beat up crowded streetcar trundling up to yet another crowded stop. Voiceover cues in: 100 000 people on the York University Subway Extension used at a couple peak times. 1 million people everywhere else. Do you want a public transit system that helps you (GO trains & buses, VIVA buses, new streetcars on right of ways), or just a pair of subway stations (the empty York University subway station with an idling subway)?
Sell the Gardener (or turn it into a toll road) and spend the money on transit.
Impose a London style city entrance tax for cars and shove the money at transit and road repair.
Obviously the government of Ontario (failing the miraculous resurrection of Bill Davis as Premier, and certainly John Tory isn’t that yet) doesn’t care since there aren’t votes to be won and the federal government doesn’t pay attention.
So screw ‘em.
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You are 100% correct. It makes no sense to depend on the province and the feds for anything, really, when it comes to Toronto (and especially for transit related items).
Now that we have the ability to raise our own money, we should be doing it. For example, instead of going to the feds with cap in hand asking for one cent of the GST, we should just institute a 1% city tax. The feds have already cut the GST by that amount anyway, so this, to me, is a no-brainer. Parking should also be taxed, and any company or business that offers free parking should have a surcharge added to their annual property tax bill.
With just these two taxes, we could pay for Transit City and have money left over, and I haven’t even mentioned the other numerous ways we could raise money, such as municipal land transfer taxes, taxes on sporting events (the Leafs will always be sold-out no matter how much it costs), etc.
So to anyone from City Hall reading this (Gord?), please, get Miller off his *ss and let’s stop wasting our time hoping that the province or the feds will do anything for us. We’ve got the tools, so let’s use them.
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Steve – it occurs to me that since Jane LRT is pointing north at Steeles… it could just keep going! I wonder was someone thinking about this when they opted to continue it to Steeles rather than interlining it with the Finch West line and thus reducing the infrastructure need.
Steve: We are not trying to interline routes, but to put routes where they are needed.
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It’s a shame, really. What would it take for politicians and the TTC to change their minds about going ahead with this extension? What can I (as a resident of Toronto) do to alter this? It’s tough standing idly by and watch our transit system not develop into something much more than it is today.
A friend of mine asked me of my opinion on the LRT network plan and I said, “I won’t expect shovels in the ground for at least 2 years.” and he said, “Why so long?”, and I reclaimed, “Because politicians like to bicker and favour large transit projects that are usually of no use to the vast majority of transit users. As well, EAs along with public meetings for transit projects can delay construction too.”
I hate to sound cynical about this, but it comes with the low expectations I have of Toronto Transit.
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I agree. I am sick and tired of watching and listening to the federal and provincial buffoons strut around as if they actually have a clue what’s going on in the real world. It appears to me that the only concern that many of the elected representatives have is to get back into power so that they can ram their thoughts and beliefs into the law of the land. I think that many of “those that serve”, their closest connection to transit is that their kids ride a bus somewhere. The people of the City of Toronto should be encouraged to write to their MPP’s and MP’s and stress that they want transit in the larger cities to get a better deal. The building of the Bus Rapid Transit to York University should continue at an accelerated pace and then take the money that was offered for the subway extension and start building transit for all the people and not just a select few.
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It’s not that you don’t have a point, but since 905 commuters are unlikely to be impressed by light rail, and since the federal government and the provincial government both need 905 votes I’m not sure what can be done. It would be very difficult to sell your argument, even though it makes sense (i.e. public transit should be about good transit for the public in the broadest sense and part of a proper urban development plan) and too easy to politicall shoot down.
That’s why I’m a big fan of electoral reform. Toronto has been and will continue to lose it’s share of the regional population, but at least in a PR system it won’t be woefully underrepresented and, most importantly, all political parties will want and court its votes.
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I fully agree with Steve on this. I have said in other postings that since I am fortunate enough to have a career that sends me away to many cities around the world, I have seen the LRT-light and it really is a worthwhile alternative to over-priced subways.
Not only are subways terribly expensive, but the time involved in their construction is excessive (which leads to more costs due to inflation). Next week I will be in Minneapolis on business and in checking the details of their LRT in advance, I notice the following details, keeping in mind that the Spadina extension is only 8.7 km and won’t be ready for use for 7 years:
The Hiawatha Line (Route 55) is 19.2 km in length with 17 stations (including two serving the airport terminals – no fare required between these stations). They broke ground on January 17, 2001 and the line was in full operation on December 4, 2004 (27 days ahead of schedule). Partial operation (one stop short of the airport) began June 26, 2004.
That amounts to more than double the service coverage in slightly more than half the time. They are currently planning a new line that connects downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul that will involve 17.6 new km of line with 16 new stations. This project is estimated at $1.1 billion (in Canadian dollars) and includes one short tunnel. They do not plan to start this construction until 2010, so its planned opening is in 2014.
We really need to promote LRT as the viable solution it is. Costs and timelines virtually sell themselves, but it is the public perception that is the up-hill battle. While I am proud of Toronto’s streetcar heritage, I can’t help but believe that the retention of streetcar service has added to what the public thinks of when the term LRT is used. There needs to be a serious effort to change this perception.
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“Toronto should withdraw support for the Spadina Subway immediately.”
An emphatic yes.
Now how do we get heard? How do we get this debate out of the back corridors and on to the front pages? How do we deal with the combined force of York University and the Finance Minister?
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It’s too late for Toronto to withdraw support now — the Feds, the province, and York Region are all involved. It’s a done deal.
I agree with everything else you said with respect to funding. If Toronto has new taxing powers, then it should use them. Of course, they’re AFRAID to.
Having said that, the TTC doesn’t know how to make friends. If you want other levels of government to fund an LRT plan, you work with them — you don’t release your plans to the media first a few days before budget time.
If the TTC and GO got together and planned a GTA-wide LRT plan (like the old GO-ALRT system), then collectively they would have more weight to get the thing funded by all governments. Maybe the GTTA can do this.
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Hear Hear! I most heartily agree, there’s no call for municipal Toronto to lay out money it doesn’t have to support provincial and federal vote-buying in the 905. If Vaughan wants transit out there, it build it themselves… oh, wait, they already have, with VIVA, an appropriately scaled transit service for the demand on the route for the foreseeable future. Work on improving the linkages, not dragging the city into infrastructure-building debt and TTC into a operations-cost hole for the next 50 years.
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Skip the Gardiner. The city should implement road tolls, say $100/day, on Queen’s Park Circle.
The comparison of subway construction cost to LRT cost of 5:1 is often talked about here. What about comparisons between operating costs of a regular GO rail service between northern suburbs and downtown to subway operation. GO rail looks like a better alternative for downtown service (or to midtown if there was an effective LRT network), and I would suspect more attractive time-wise.
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Cities ought to have the power to levy a limited income tax, partially or fully replacing the property tax system. This would give cities more power to set tax rates without provincial interference, like the changes in property tax assessment rates announced in this year’s provincial budget. Combined with eliminating municipal responsibility for funding welfare, this would help make cities more self-sufficient.
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Hear Hear!
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In a way, I think the City did just withdraw its support from Spadina. Transit City is entirely a political document that says “we have different priorities”.
The timing of Transit City coincided perfectly with Federal and Provincial budgets, but also with the first meeting of the GTTA, just in case anyone was unsure of Toronto’s public transit requirements (which I suspect millions are).
With Spadina funding agreements still to be negotiated and a Federal election seemingly imminent, the subway extension may not be a done deal (yet).
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The TTC needs to take the blame on this, for even entertaining the idea with an EA.
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Why do we always have to rely on different levels of government for transit money? What about the corporate level? Are we really that socialist that we need to rely ONLY on the government? If the universities and hospitals can do it, why not transit?
Steve: It’s not a question of socialism vs corporatism for funding. Corporations want a tangible return on their investment. When XYZ Communications puts its name on a University faculty, the cost is usually in the tens of millions, they get a tax writeoff (which is another way of saying that the public tax system pays part of the cost indirectly), and they get the publicity associated with the naming rights forever.
Life gets even more interesting if the naming rights have a limited lifespan, or the donor company changes names. People only just got used to calling the O’Keefe Centre the Hummingbird, and it’s going to change again. The Pantages Theatre became the Canon, and there’s a Kodak Theatre somewhere but don’t ask me where.
If I get a heart valve replaced in the Lord Whatsits Wing of a hospital, I don’t really care who named it, I care that I am receiving medical treatment. If I get a degree from the University of Toronto, nobody outside of a one-block radius of the campus, if that, will know or care about the name on the door of the school.
If you want to pay for, say, a subway station, it will set you back anywhere from $100-150 million, an order of magnitude more than a typical donation to a cultural organization. Again, through the tax system, the public sector will actually cough up about half of this. While you may get your logo, the primary station name must remain a geographic reference for obvious reasons. Mind you, the idea of renaming North York Centre as “Centre of the Universe Inc.” has a certain allure. If only we could find a company with that name and lots of money looking for a home.
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Mimmo, I’m not convinced that the Spadina subway is a done deal. Other governments have changed their minds in the past and pulled funding that had been previously committed (ie Harris and the Eglinton line). So Toronto is well within its right to reverse its decision on Spadina and refuse to cover its share of the cost, which I believe is around $400M. Without that, unless some other government decides to cough up the missing money, there’s no subway.
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I think it’s pretty clear that the feds and the province have pretty much washed their hands when it comes to Toronto, except for unbelievably parochial and cynical funding for a subway to Greg Sorbara’s riding. It’s so frustrating that the provincial Liberals talk about fixing the errors of the Mike Harris years, and when they actually act, they do so in a way that favours the 905 almost exclusively. The new City act gives Toronto the power to raise money, and the other levels seem to be saying: “You want money, go ahead and raise it.” So, let’s raise some taxes. It takes money, creativity, and most importantly, the will to build a great city, and you can’t be great without proper transportation. C’mon Miller!
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I Like the 1% Tax Idea, many cities in USA like Dallas have a vote on taxes for transit and then implement it…Why doesn’t Canada have that? Its actually a good American Idea…
$100 Road Toll around Queens Park would be great and hilarious but an 8 lane boulevard traffic has to go somewhere…
LRT is great, but i think the only way people will be convinced is if we make 2 different vehicle types. Slow, horrible streetcars….(in the suburban view) and fast LRT Subway-like trains….
This will also allow us to have 2 guages in Toronto. The Abnormal one for the downtown core and the Normal one for the rest of the GTA! (Toronto & Outside Toronto)
This means lower costs for the rest of the network by taking off the shelf LRV’s instead of custom ones.
Also, some current routes like St. Clair, when it comes to replacement within 20 or so years can switch its gauge to the standard one.
This would mean….South of Bloor TTC Guage, North of Bloor Standard Gauge.
According to the Transit City Plan, all the LRT lines end at Subway so connection with current streetcar tracks would not happen…
If we use the same stupid TTC gauge, we are going to have great problems in the GTA in the future.
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Mimmo Briganti said,
“It’s too late for Toronto to withdraw support now — the Feds, the province, and York Region are all involved. It’s a done deal.”
Not necessarily. Toronto and York were forced to hastily sign a 60/40 funding split on the municipal part of the deal in order to secure the provincial offer back when the federal portion was a pipe dream. Now that they will actually have to cough up the funds, the bickering will be forthcoming.
If Toronto isn’t the first to sound like they are wanting to pull out, York likely will be. York is a Regional level of government that still has to deal with a number of municipalities with differing priorities. Transit for some of these means a couple of GO busses per day, and that’s all.
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I certainly agree with the spirit of the post, particular in respect of the line north of York U.
However, I have to say that TTC and Toronto officials put Spadina on the offical wish list.
Then they attended the press conference announcing its go ahead.
After all the other parties agreed to their funding share.
Was this poor decision making all around? Sure.
But its also done.
The enemies Toronto would make by attempting to scuttle this deal would give our city and Transit City more grief that gain.
Further, at the end of the day, I suspect the province would just deduct Toronto’s share from transfers to this City, and we would be no further ahead.
***
I do, though, believe whole heartedly that its time for Toronto to begin implementing Transit City (LRT) immediately, and that it should be funded through Road Tolls and Parking taxes (particularly on free parking)
This would be a no excuses way of getting things done, and would, apprpropriately penalize those who are choosing cars and sprawl by making them pay the cost of transit, and it would elicit a signficant contribution from those liviing in the ‘905’ just like provincial funding.
I am, however, not holding my breath.
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some who have read my past posts might not expect this, but I agree fully that we should not be building the spadina subway up to vaughan. you could extend the yonge line to steeles or clark for a fraction of the cost, and still have money left over to put the entire king streetcar underground. seems like a better plan then to build a subway out into the middle of nowhere
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Yes indeed; we should be pulling out of the subway extension to York debacle ASAP!! Our city should say, we can no longer afford it, since other funding that we were counting on for the good of the majority did not materialise as well. Now because there’s no bang for our limited amount of bucks for a marginally usuable heavy rapid line, value for those dollars needs to be directed elsewhere. Our city should put what little of our money there is behind projects for all parts of the city.
I’m not a fan of busses at all, but BRTs are a great way to establish suburban ridership at a reasonable cost. Couple this with plans to upgrade to LRT when levels warrant. Imaginative, low cost, ways to keep surface routes, that must share limited road space, moving is a far better way to have the available dollars directed.
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Interesting that a 100,000 “measly” riders on this extension is greater than the combined ridership of the King and Queen lines. How about the idea that Vaughn and NW Toronto get more transit before King gets a subway because there is already excellent transit in the downtown area and almost none out in the NW? How about the fact that thousands of transit dependent riders in the Finch/Steeles west corridor could have 30 minutes or more shaved off their commute? How about the fact that the inner city poor will be able to access new jobs in the 905; i.e. the partial resolution of the “spatial mismatch” hypothesis? How about this providing better utilization of the Spadina line and possibly less overcrowding on the Yonge line? Vaughn is one of the fastest growing areas in Canada – why not plan for that now, instead of later?
There are many people that will benefit from this line that currently have very poor transit access or nothing at all. Instead of spending lots of time attacking this subway extension, why not appreciate the new doors it will open for the suburban transit dependent and spend your time writing and calling your council members to get transit priority and other measures on King and Queen?
Steve: The point I have been trying to make is that there is a perfectly good alternative scheme in the northwest part of Toronto and southern Vaughan that would provide far more transit coverage at much lower cost — an LRT network. As an example, a spine could run north from Downsview Station to Highway 7 intersecting and possibly interlining with routes on Finch West (see Transit City) or Highway 7 (end state of VIVA plans). But instead we will pour all our money into a subway line to VCC.
With respect to King and Queen routes, it is important to note the difference in the characteristics of the ridership. On the Spadina extension there are two types of trips that dominate riding: commuters going to the central part of Toronto and students going to York. There are far more of the former than the latter because the subway does not serve many of the places from which York students might originate. (I am using the TTC and York Region’s own data from their EA seasoned by a little of my own knowledge of riding patterns.)
On King and Queen, there are many short rides, there is good all-day demand, not just during the peak, and many neighbourhoods are almost routes in themselves. For example, the King car between roughly Dundas West and Jameson serves a demand that is almost completely independent of the demand in eastern Parkdale and downtown. Similarly, the Broadview service has its own strong, local demand. We get better use out of the infrastructure and vehicles because of this diversity in demand.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t have rapid transit to York and VCC, just that it shouldn’t be a subway line.
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Extend the Jane LRT from Steeles West to Downsview! Best of both worlds: fast service for York U, and the cheap (relatively) cost of LRT. Toronto needs all the money it can get right now, especially if they want Transit City implemented.
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If Toronto is going to use it’s new taxing powers, why not a tax on commercial parking operations or commercial parking spaces (i.e. a user pay fee)? It’s one way to raise funds for the Transit City proposal.
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Chris said …
I would like to question your sources, and Steve if you have time could we please get some REALISTIC ridership numbers.
I’m sorry but I have a real problem with this, it makes you sound like a naive suburban kid. (no offense, comments just lack life experience)
Steve: First off, the questions Chris posed are reasonable if not as fully informed as some would prefer. I have left the second comment in only as an example that if we dismiss someone’s position with an ad hominem argument, we have not really addressed their issue.
Here is my reply:
The 100,000 per day estimate for riding in 2021 comes from the TTC’s EA, appendix M, page 25. Note that the riding we have on King and Queen is today, and can be expected to grow with planned development and improved service. These two lines will have more riders that the Spadina Subway in 2021 based on projections in the EA.
The table here takes the AM peak ridership and factors it up to all day values. Of the projected 100,000 boardings and alightings, 80 percent are at York University or Steeles West Station. The figures are not split apart for the two stations, and there is no attempt to distinguish between people who park at Steeles and ride downtown (commuters) and students. The remaining 20 percent is divided roughly equally between Finch West and Sheppard West stations. Although this may overstate Sheppard West (it is entirely dependent on transfer traffic, not local demand, and will be very peak-oriented), the number of riders involved would be less than 10 percent of the total projection and it doesn’t really matter one way or another.
Obviously with the VCC extension, there will be more folks coming down as commuters from north of Steeles, but a good argument can be made that most of these would have boarded at Steeles West if the VCC extension were not there.
The projected demand at York U and Steeles West combined for the AM peak is 21,000 over a 3-hour period. This counts both people going downtown and those who are bound for York U itself. The projected southbound link volumes are:
From Steeles West & York U : 13,150
From Finch/Keele: 15,350
From Sheppard West: 17,100
Sheppard West is a special case in the model because it is assumed to get some transfer traffic from GO and, frankly, I think those riders are better left on their trains. If they want to get to midtown (e.g. one of the other Universities in Toronto), they can double back on the subway.
In any event, the three-hour peak typically divides up so that half of the riding occurs during the peak hour. This gives us a demand of about 6,600 southbound from York U Station in the peak hour. Whether this would actually rise to 8,500 by Sheppard West depends on the assumption made about GO transfers.
7,500 is not an unreasonable volume for LRT on a dedicated right-of-way.
Now I turn to the question of inner-city poor accessing jobs in the 905. They will be able to access a lot more jobs if we are able to build more transit. The scheme I outlined in another reply would see a Highway 7 LRT (something VIVA has already proposed) integrated with the Spadina/VCC line so that there could be a direct service from Highway 7 east or west of VCC through York U and on to the subway at Downsview. The Finch West and Jane lines will be part of Transit City, and nothing prevents York Region from running even more buses. We do not need a subway to carry the projected demand north of Steeles Avenue which according to York Region’s own EA is somewhere around 3,000 per hour.
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There is a limit to how far a subway should reach, and York U is it. Beyond that you’re into GO train territory. Nobody wants to sit on a hard subway bench for an hour and the density and diversity of destinations doesn’t exist out there. York U but no farther.
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I’d like to follow up on what Chris just said.
Steve, while you are absolutely correct that our densities do not support new subway corridors, our geographic size, population distribution, and travel patterns do not really support LRT that well either.
LRT on roads (even in their own ROWs with traffic signal priority) will never be effective or viable as an alternative to crosstown 401 vehicluar movements, just as the Queen car is no alternative to the Gardiner for south Etobicoke/Downtown commutes.
If our city was smaller, I’d say yes, LRT all the way, but it isn’t. This is why we need a more balanced mix of LRT, BRT, and SUBWAY planning. Foreigners look at us and say … a city of our size, our population … and only 1 feeder E-W subway line?
Having said all this, the TTC and the City of Toronto need to take a “Lobbying School 101” course and learn how to work within the system, however crooked it may be. And if they can’t learn to get in bed with the Province and the Feds, then they need to find ways to fund these projects themselves.
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Where is the discussion of GO transit’s role in all this. It strikes me that there’d be many advantages to seriously improving (or even creating) GO services to Vaughan (and Markham while we’re at it) and then letting the TTC/YRT build a better net of LRT/BRT/pain old bus service. I love subways as much as the next guy, but you have to admit that they’re loud, expensive and the view leaves a little to be desired.
An at-grade service with decent (say 15 minute) headway using electric trains of an appropriate length and mass (i.e. more o-train, less go train) serving stops more than 1 km apart should result in realistic travel times for people going the entire route distance and would also nicely connect different systems together. Do it all on a the mythical GTAA smart card system and you could have a elegant little system on your hands.
Steve: Ah yes. Significant increases in GO are badly needed, but making them a reality would require the GTTA to get off its ass and do more than study Smart Cards for the next year. Since Rob MacIsaac seems to have only one set speech for all occasions, innovation from that quarter may be a while coming.
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The problem with building the York University extension as an LRT is the transfer at Downsview, a station which is not a major destination. The same problem is seen at Kennedy with the SRT-subway transfer and with the Sheppard East LRT proposal. Unforunately, the inflexibility of subway technology requires that extensions be grade-separated, so costs are high. Alternatively, an extension can be built with a different technology but then an inconvenient transfer is required.
The lack of unnecessary transfers is a major advantage of the Eglinton LRT proposal. Vehicles can run both in a subway-like tunnel and at grade, reducing costs where lower capacity is required and/or more space is available. Furthermore, it will probably be possible to convert the LRT tunnel to subway when more capacity is required. This is how the subway in Brussels was built – it was initially a tunnel for trams.
Personally, I would extend the subway to Steeles West and then build an LRT north to VCC and continuing to Major Mackensie Drive or alternatively along Highway 7. This could be a northern extension of the Jane LRT. The VCC is a pipe dream.
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First of all, let me commend you for an excellent and informative site. This is really an incredibly valuable resource for learning about transit issues.
I am in total agreement that the Spadina extension needs to be halted in its tracks (excuse the pun). I think the political justification is quite simple: the Transit City vision is *the* priority for the City of Toronto. The total ambivalence of the province and feds in response to the unveiling of Transit City is a clear demonstration that they don’t share our priorities. Until they do, and are willing to make the necessary (and deserved) contribution to what is the true priority of the City of Toronto, the TTC cannot reciprocate by funding 1/3 of the Spadina extension, which serves different political purposes than actually providing effective transit service.
That should be the talking point, and should be used as Toronto’s excuse for bailing on the Spadina extension.
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The comment by mobius, #28 above, reflects what I have thought for some time. There might, barely, be a justification to build as far as York University, but why beyond that? And by the way I can’t help noting that even York, supposedly the great trip generator in this part of town, is relatively quiet for four months of the year.
Even as we travel up to York, I fail to see the need for the so-called “Sheppard West” station. I somehow thought we already had a station on Sheppard West, except that it’s called Downsview.
It’s probably too late to back away from this now, but it’s further evidence of the ad-hoc, and highly politicized, decision-making that we’ve had for years. There’s too much evidence of that around. The best chance now is that the new GTTA will bring some kind of order to this process. With high-powered people on the board, who know how to “twist arms” in the political back rooms, there may be some hope of a less political and more sensible process being implemented.
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Maybe the city should pull out. York U is a reasonable terminus for the line but if the feds and province can’t support transit in the city as well that may be a good bargaining stance.
Such an attenuation to the line is unlikely to be operationally revenue positive or even close to neutral. And who will take the blame? The TTC and the city will, years from now. They’ll be called inefficient and wasteful.
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I agree with Andrew. Seems to me that Mr. Sorbara wants to build a line eventually to the new Vaughn Mills Mega Mall up the street (Jane). Let them pay for a Jane LRT to run up all the way to that mall in 10+ years time. York U ought to be the terminus, instead of the current Downsview, a virtual Kennedy stn for the line in this case. When it’s built, the city ought to allow massive development along the Spadina corridor to help make it more useful.
The NW area of the city needs a line for sure, with plenty of rental housing near York U and in North Etobicoke. The line will capture a lot of people that would normally be heading to Yonge across the top of the city. I have ridden the bus up there (Finch, Jane years ago, Steeles) only a few times, and there is justification in this portion. The Finch LRT would be good with Sheppard in the east as the top-end cross-town route, plus the Don Mills LRT to caputure traffic in the east end before Yonge.
I see the TTC perhaps trying to make better use of the Spadina line with this and ease overcrowding in the city center.
One other note, in the West end, the BD line should be extended to Cloverdale mall, with a new Mississauga Transit terminal there instead of one planned for Kipling. With direct access to the 427, the hundreds of busses there can speedily get to and fro from Hazel’s city, Airport, Sherway, Woodbine, Humber college, NW, SW Etobicoke and even attract Malton/Brampton riders.
When it comes to politics, government money seems to corrupt virtually all it comes in contact with-i.e. seperate schools, hospitals, social agencies-all rife with inefficiency and non-accountablity.
Steve: As someone who works in the public sector, I take strong exception to the last comment. Yes, there are boondoggles in some government agencies, but the private sector is no better. If anything, the opportunity for oversight in the private sector is much lower because large voting blocks control companies, and their affairs are hidden from view.
The problem with transit (and some other areas of public expenditure) is that the govenment spending is intended not to improve transit (that’s almost a sideline) but to generate work for construction companies and increased value for property developers. Ask for money to actually run better service, and the message is “Get lost”.
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The figures are split apart in appendix D, page 37, of the Demand Forecast Document, but as you write, does not split them into student commuters and downtown commuters neatly by table. The report does state that 70% of student trips (to York University presumably) by transit originate in Toronto and the AM peak period modal split for students was forecast to be 55%.
The number which surprises is the AM boardings at York University by transfer, 6322, which is more than the walk out alights. The boardings surpass the 4.107 at Steeles by transfer, and dwarf both Sheppard West and Finch West tranfers which range from 1,000 to 1,500 depending on the model. Also surprising is the low Finch West numbers which are roughly equal to Shepherd West numbers.
This should bring up the following questions:
Would the subway (or any other rapid transit, for that matter) eliminate significant bus travel to the university?
Are these transfer boardings local or longer distance GO bus traffic?
What is the destination for these transfer boardings?
Could the Sheppard West Station be eliminated.
Perhaps complete redevelopment of Downview Park could occur allowing Sheppard to slice east-west through the airport lands. Downsview Station could be an LRT line interchange. The Finch line could be dropped in favour of Sheppard with that line terminating east at the Sheppard Subway. A cut-and -cover subway through airport lands could save a lot of the construction costs.
The walk-ins and walk-outs are only significant for York University and are low for the other three stations. The different models show low but varying numbers, all depending on development.
Steve:
The nature of the transit network, especially if a good feeder system of east-west bus or LRT routes is not connected with the subway, is that a good proportion of York students won’t be coming from areas where the subway will be of use. This means that they will likely continue to require bus service to the campus unless they are forced onto the subway by a gerrymandered route system, or they will drive.
It is highly unlikely that the area around Sheppard West station will be developed given the presence of Downsview Park and the airfield. Projected ridership here is extremely low. This is a station that should be roughed into the plans (much as North York Centre was) so that it can be built later if and when redevelopment occurs.
I don’t agree with moving the Finch LRT line down to Sheppard given the land use and population on Finch. Yes, it looks nice on a map, but I have to ask just how many Sheppard corridor riders actually want to cross Yonge Street. Extending the subway all across Sheppard West is financially out of the question as a way to eliminate the transfer between various services.
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A lot of the comments have opposed building a subway to the 905. York University is not in the 905. It’s in Toronto.
I grew up hearing that York University was the largest single destination in then Metro Toronto. To me, it always made sense for York to have a subway.
Is it building into the 905 that people oppose — or building to York University, too?
Steve: I have no objection to improved transit access to York U, but I do object to the pricetag when compared with the demand. As I have written many times before, York could have been much better served by a network of LRT lines, but this option was never on the table. They lobbied for what they knew and what the TTC put before them — a subway.
As for the VCC extension, that is a complete waste of money. The 905 is LRT and busway territory, and York Region will sink a lot of capital into expensive subway technology when they could have a cheaper alternative with greater benefit to their city as a whole.
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Having been away for 7 weeks I don’t know the entire story behind this but it seems that Toronto would be better off not to use the money from the other levels of government as they could then spend their money on what they wanted. If York U and York/Vaughan want the subway extension let them pay for it. If my memory serves me correctly highway 404 was supposed to start at Steele’s and Metro Toronto was supposed to extend the DVP up to Steele’s. Metro decided that this extension would not benefit anyone in the city so decided not to build it and the province ended up building it. I think that it is time for Toronto to say “No thanks, we’ll go our own way.”
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The TTC and the City have been pro-Spadina for years, so blame them. This LRT plan was hatched at the last minute.
I would like to know why everyone is saying LRT for York instead of BRT. You’re not being objective! Is your railfanism affecting your objectivity?
If you’re looking at value for money, then BRT would serve this corridor equally well. So why LRT? As a matter of fact, that $6B could be much better spent on BUSES and LOTS OF THEM, running express services on all the major routes, including the 401, DVP, and 427/Gardiner. If drivers actually saw TTC buses on the highways (in reserved lanes) going downtown and crosstown, you can bet your sweet patooties they’d consider leaving the car at home.
Steve: This is a chicken-and-egg situation. If York builds nothing but a bunch of BRT routes running in expressways and focussed on Steeles West Station, all they will ever have is a commuter bus system pointed at central Toronto. If York wants a network of its own, then it needs routes on real streets, not expressways, and these may collectively be better built with LRT. My jumping off point for proposing LRT in York is that VIVA did it already — it is the end state of the evolution of their network: buses to BRT to LRT.
If York is going to build rail, they should build LRT, not subways.
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I’d say the city should immediately start work (if they haven’t already) on a plan for running light rail out to York U as a gateway to light rail on Finch, with expansion options to Vaughan. A little closer to this October (election season), they should announce that Subways are no longer on the table, and that if Mr. Sorbara wants a transit link to his riding, this is the only available option. All moneys allocated to the subway from the city’s end should be earmarked for other light rail projects, and the usual one third share allocated, pending matching funds, for the new York / Vaughan LRT plan. Considering that LRT will probably take less time to build, there’ll be plenty of time for a new EA. If Sorbara wants approval sooner there are a number of ways he could facilitate speeding up the process. Just make sure that the EA is for a complete network in that end of town (i.e.: York, Vaughan, Finch in one package).
He could probably pull something together to save face in time to be reelected.
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