To no great surprise, Ontario’s budget for 2015 included a lot of transit spending, although the degree to which this is new money rather than old repackaged announcements is a tad vague.
The transportation portion of the budget, “Moving Ontario Forward”, begins on page 42 of the main budget document (which is page 74 of the linked pdf). The financial information can be confusing because projects are grouped in various sections depending on their source of funding.
To support Building Together, Ontario’s long-term infrastructure plan, investments of more than $100 billion over 10 years are underway, including $50 billion for transportation infrastructure. This is above the commitment to make $31.5 billion in dedicated funds available through Moving Ontario Forward.(p. 38)
In other words, there are now two pools of funding: the original $50b announced for the first parts of The Big Move, and a further $31.5b for recently green-lit projects. The original $50b is going toward various projects including:
- UP Express
- Mississauga Transitway
- vivaNext Rapidways
- Eglinton Crosstown LRT
- Finch and Sheppard LRT projects.
On the Finch and Sheppard projects, the Budget has this to say:
The Finch West and Sheppard East LRT projects, which will provide reliable and improved transit service on these busy corridors. The Finch West LRT will run along Finch Avenue between Humber College and Keele Street, and the Sheppard East LRT will run along Sheppard Avenue from Don Mills Station to Morningside Avenue. The procurement process for the Finch West LRT project is expected to begin later in 2015. (p. 39)
Additional investments not tied to specific project groups of funding streams include:
- The PRESTO fare card.
- Region of Waterloo’s ION LRT/BRT rapid transit project.
- Ottawa’s Confederation LRT line.
- Toronto’s streetcar fleet renewal.
- The Scarborough Subway Extension.
- Various highway projects. (pp. 40-41)
Moving Ontario Forward: Asset Optimization and Dedicated (Redirected) Taxes
This process began with the 2014 budget and, basically, involves land sales to fund infrastructure costs. In 2014, the target amount was $3.1-billion, but this has now been increased to $5.7b. The projects supported from this source include:
- Accelerate service enhancements to the GO Transit network, which will lay the foundation for Regional Express Rail (RER);
- Launch a new Connecting Links program, which provides funding for municipal roads that connect to provincial highways;
- Develop a new program to expand the natural gas network, which would help more communities generate economic growth; and
- Enhance regional mobility by investing in Metrolinx’s Next Wave projects of The Big Move, such as the Hurontario–Main Light Rail Transit project in Mississauga and Brampton, and rapid transit in Hamilton. (p. 43)
A further $25.8b (unchanged from the 2014 budget, see list on pp. 44-45) comes partly from tax revenues that are explicitly directed to the Moving Ontario Forward program. Some of this money is not yet in hand, notably contributions expected from the Federal Government.
A big chunk of Moving Ontario Forward is the GO Regional Express Rail (RER) scheme that has already been announced. The map in Chart 1.7 (at page 47) shows RER service to Oshawa, Unionville, Aurora, Bramalea and an unnamed point somewhere east of Hamilton, as well as service improvements on the Milton and Richmond Hill lines, plus the portions of the Stouffville, Barrie and Kitchener corridors beyond the RER limits. This is similar to information in the recent RER announcement, but with a notable difference regarding electrification:
The Province is also enhancing train service on all lines, including fully electrifying the Barrie, Stouffville and Lakeshore East corridors. (p. 47)
The description of RER service is also intriguing:
Regional Express Rail will deliver electrified service, at about 15-minute frequencies, along the following routes:
- Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West corridors, between Oshawa and Burlington;
- Union Station to Unionville on the Stouffville corridor;
- Union Station to Bramalea on the Kitchener corridor, including UP Express; and
- Union Station to Aurora on the Barrie corridor. (p. 47)
Given that the UPX will itself operate on a 15-minute headway, I hope that this description is merely a drafting error that has conflated two separate services in one corridor.
The Budget goes on to say that beginning in 2015-16, trains will be added on all corridors during various periods. This is an operating cost, not (in the main) a capital cost, and it is unclear whether this is coming from the “Moving Ontario Forward” pot or from general budgetary allocations to Metrolinx/GO.
Funding Partnerships
The budget is quite clear that Ontario is not going to build every project solely with provincial money.
The GO system, strengthened by the Province’s investments in RER, including on the Stouffville and Kitchener lines, will provide the backbone for a regional network. This network will also be the foundation for the SmartTrack proposal in the City of Toronto. Additional funding is needed to support key elements of this proposal, such as new stations along the route and an extension along Eglinton to the busy airport area. The SmartTrack funding proposal entails contributions of about $5.2 billion in new funding from partners, including the City of Toronto and the federal government. (p. 49)
At this point, Queen’s Park is not getting into a technology debate about the Eglinton West branch of SmartTrack and still describes this line as an airport service. However, as we will see later, the “Eglinton Extension” has been hived off as a separate budget item, and it is to be entirely funded with “partnership” money.
Another role for “partnership” funds lies in improvements to the Richmond Hill corridor with flood mitigation. It appears that Queen’s Park regards this as part of the larger bundle of projects that relate to core area capacity relief that should have money from more than one government. Whether Ontario would contribute anything is uncertain, and probably the subject of a future budget announcement if others come to the table.
The Next Wave
The Metrolinx “Next Wave” includes several projects that have not proceeded beyond lines on the map, but for which the province will continue planning and design work:
- Dundas Street Bus Rapid Transit, linking Toronto, Mississauga, Oakville and Burlington;
- Durham–Scarborough Bus Rapid Transit;
- Brampton Queen Street Rapid Transit;
- Toronto Relief Line; and
- Yonge North Subway Extension. (p. 51)
Moreover:
In addition to RER, the Province will work with related municipalities to move towards implementation of the Hurontario–Main Light Rail Transit project in Mississauga and Brampton, and rapid transit in Hamilton. (p. 51)
Exactly what “rapid transit in Hamilton” might be is not specified.
The status of various projects is summarized in the following chart (p.52).
As noted above, the SmartTrack elements of this plan at a cost of $5.2b are left for others to finance, and the Eglinton Extension is shown separately with 100% “new partner” requirements. An obvious place where Mayor Tory might save substantially would be to return to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT option for this segment, but we are unlikely to see any shift in his position until evidence from studies now underway shows just how impractical his SmartTrack scheme is in this regard.
What’s In and What’s Out
Notable by its absence is any reference to Waterfront transit which appears to be left in Toronto’s (or the tripartite Waterfront Toronto’s) hands. There is a generic reference to the proposed works at the mouth of the Don River, but nothing specific.
The status of route and technology selections in Scarborough is not touched both because this is a hot potato, and because legitimately Queen’s Park can point to studies now in progress that will sort out the potential role of various lines. Any move away from the subway option will not happen without a shift in Toronto Council’s position, and that is only likely if the project’s cost escalates well beyond the currently projected level.
Further enhancements to GO, notably on the Milton and Richmond Hill corridors, are topics for another day. In particular, Richmond Hill is unlikely to get serious attention until Queen’s Park and Metrolinx wrestle with the combined issues of routes serving the core area from the north and which infrastructure improvements make the most sense as a package.
No other Toronto rapid transit schemes are listed including perennial pet projects such as the Sheppard West and Bloor West subway extensions, nor is there any talk of enhancing the ongoing funding via gas tax revenue that contributes, in part, to the operating subsidy. Moreover, the question of funding accessibility is still clearly in Toronto’s hands.
The Budget doesn’t give Toronto everything it wants, and puts the City on notice that it has to come up with its own funding to address various problems, even if there might be a bona fide call on Queen’s Park for some areas.
At a minimum, there is more definition to what the government claims it will do in coming years. The challenge will be actual delivery, something for which the Liberals at Queen’s Park don’t have a good track record.
Steve Munro 
Does the Sheppard East LRT have the same guage as the Sheppard Subway ? If so wouldn’t it make sense to have the LRT sets go right to Yonge so passengers would not have to transfer trains on the same line.
Steve: No. The subway is TTC gauge and the Sheppard LRT will be standard gauge like the other Metrolinx lines.
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Steve, is any chance that Toronto’s funding for the Scarborough subway extension could be redirected to the eastern portion of the SmartTrack line and the subway extension cancelled? I know there are a host of technical issues with the western leg of SmartTrack but the eastern portion seems viable to me. Speaking as a Scarberian myself I would prefer the SmartTrack option over the SSE.
Steve: Anything is possible, but the cost of the Scarborough Subway (at $3.6b) is very much more than the costs associated with SmartTrack in Scarborough (primarily some station construction) and trains.
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The big problem with the budget is that the right wing press and other right wing media have succeeded in making taxation unacceptable. This budget contains no tax increases, but we are going to sell Hydro One – which pays big annual dividends to the Province – in order to fund transit.
Transit is important. It will benefit us in the near term and will benefit future generations. There is no reason why taxes should not be increased to fund infrastructure and no reason why government should not take on debt to achieve the same ends. These actions have been “taboo” due to a screaming horde of ignorance.
There are only so many assets to sell, and the ones that pay dividends will result in a permanent erosion of government income if they are sold. Sooner or later, governments are going to have to raise taxes. We got on perfectly well in this world with 8% PST and 7% GST. It is time that the Ontario government raised the HST to a minimum of 15% and perhaps more. This would raise billions, but only cost 4 cents on a bottle of Pepsi.
I am pleased that Kathleen Wynne wants to build transit. She should not be afraid to collect the taxes to do so.
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Steve, there are some errors of yours that I would like to fix. Firstly, it’s vivaNext and not vivaNest as you stated. Secondly, it’s Downtown Relief Line and not Toronto Relief Line as Toronto Relief Line seem to falsely suggest that it would provide relief to all of Toronto which is obviously not true, for instance, how would it provide relief to Rexdale which is part of Toronto and it would not and hence, Toronto Relief Line is a highly misleading name.
Steve: “vivaNest” is one of the typos I didn’t catch before publishing the article. “Toronto Relief Line” is a direct quote from the budget (did you miss the page number reference?). I don’t care what you think it should be called, that’s what it is called in the budget papers which I cite. To me it’s the DRL, and that’s always the term I use.
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I propose a property tax increase for the Downtown Relief Line catchment area to pay for the Downtown Relief Line.
Steve: That gets tricky. If we build the DRL in order to free up capacity on the Yonge line for people living in Richmond Hill, and we build SmartTrack and the SSE to give people from Scarborough a direct ride to downtown, shouldn’t we be taxing them to pay for the cost of their lines? I would accept your premise if you spread the idea around more fairly to cover all people who think they need a new subway.
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It is a creative way for Ontario to fully commit to their own “share” of SmartTrack that they were going to do anyway (GO RER electrification).
Tory’s roughly $8bn estimate seems spot on, which makes the Eglinton corridor (and other SmartTrack pluses like the desired infill stations) a painful-looking $5.2bn, similar in magnitude to the Scarborough Subway. The rest of $3bn is already being committed by Ontario simply by virtue of electrifying the lines and related infrastructure.
Pay for what they were going to do anyway, while making the Eglinton spur look incredibly expensive (which it is) and put the spur’s funding responsibility into feds/city hands.
Steve: I have to say this after fixing countless mistakes in comments: the word is “electrification”, not “electricification” or some variant on that. You undermine your credibility with such consistent errors in a fundamental term even after I repeatedly correct it.
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A great face saving move for Tory is when the report arrives, pretend to be surprised that the three stations on Eglinton costs more than half of the whole SmartTrack route, chop the spur & reallocate it to a much cheaper ECLRT extension all the way to Hurontario/Square One, announce a SmartTrack extension to Brampton (after one or two more years of wrangling with CN for a corridor sharing compromise and corridor expansion). Voters would take it as a fair trade. Pulling this off while costing less than $5.2bn.
With Hurontario and GO RER, plus Ontario’s creative siloing of $5.2bn external funding of SmartTrack to the Eglinton spur, will now quickly change things. Hopefully Tory demonstrates his creative flexibility abilities, and accepts this compromise once the public analysis gives him a face-saving “EXIT” sign.
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Regarding the Finch West LRT. What the heck is a procurement process and how does it apply to the project. Is any work actually being done?
Steve: This is a procurement for a design, build, finance, maintain 3P implementation of the line. The project has been ready to go for a while, but was on hold for the elections and funding confirmation.
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Joe M:
No-No don’t go there. Trying to integrate technology would mean Toronto would be moving closer to transit equality & would clearly move the overall goal of trying to make Scarborough the most poorly designed land mass in Ontario off track.
Steve: Your BS on this subject is laughable. To you everything is a conspiracy against Scarborough.
The reason the lines have different gauges is that Metrolinx, in its infinite wisdom, and thanks to pressure from a (failed) LRT vehicle bidder, decided that the Toronto LRT network should be standard gauge. When these were Transit City lines, they were TTC gauge.
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I would reject this out of hand on the grounds that Tory has no interest on building a line outside 416. Except that SmartTrack already plans to go to Unionville. If Smart Track went beyond the 416 on the west side as well, that may be a way to snag money from York and/or Peel and interest the feds.
Not that York is doing much for TYSSE, especially on the operations side. Too bad for Tory that he doesn’t have any real costing done for anyone to actually fund. The feds brought down an ‘election budget’ this week, and they clearly didn’t bite. The next ‘election budget’ isn’t until 2019, and Tory needs funding commitments a lot earlier if he is to get this built by 2021 (as if).
Steve: John Tory bought the “SmartTrack” scheme hook, line and sinker, and the fact that its primary purpose, originally, was to serve development in the 905 seems to have been completely lost on him.
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This is a waste of time as I think that subway would be better and the density justifies it too. The only reason this is an LRT instead of a subway is because the area is poor high crime area.
Steve: Here we go again. The area does not come close to justifying a subway, and the choice of LRT has nothing to do with the demographics. But you can believe that if you want, and lobby for a subway, and enjoy further decades on the Finch West bus.
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I really do believe that there should be a basic formulation that can be readily understood by all in terms of what makes sense. It is unreasonable to build lines that would require 1 or 2 subway trains to operate at any over 50% capacity at peak. If we were to assume that this was a full standard trainset and needed to be at 66% at peak to be moderately reasonable, it would seem odd to tunnel for something that would only have a train every 20 minutes no? There is a reason why it is discussed in terms of minimums of load, and there not being space in a surface alignment.
I think the Province should simply take the lead here, to move ahead with the already agreed projects – now. Force the issue on signal priority, and get underway. Once people realize the impact of a well planned LRT working with real signal priority, a lot of the BS should hopefully fall away.
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Actually I stand correct. Once again a ridiculous political policy works against Scarborough best interest. And this procurement nonsense is just one small issue but had major major impact.
It’s not a conspiracy. The issue is how Scarborough ends up on the short end through in the Political spectrum. All other “suburban” Municipalities work hard to attract business through quality City building, planning, lobbying etc.
The greater issue is the lack of overall development plan for Scarborough & unfortunately the haves of the City don’t allow much of a quality plan to develop & are too worried about their own funding needs to help lobby for the largest neglected land mass in Toronto.
No Conspiracy here. Just reality.
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Steve while I think the vivaNest part is amusing, I kind of find myself thinking that the Toronto Relief Line is in all reality a very appropriate name, which will be all the more important when it runs at least as far as Eglinton and Don Mills. While it may not specifically address issues of capacity for Rexdale trips, it will enable systemic improvements and growth. The subway system is in effect overloaded at its primary junction points and this impact will slowly ripple out. A delay at Bloor/Yonge will have an impact along the entire length of whichever line is delayed. When the platforms on the Yonge line are so overloaded that alighting becomes increasing impossible – it will slow the works throughout.
The ability to reasonably grow transit ridership using the subway as a backbone, requires that this basic system be able to accept additional riders and run its trains along its entire length. So I would put to you that for transit to work in all but the most localized sense requires the network to be able to accept the load. If you can reasonably convince additional riders, and some already on the system, that they do not wish to go to the core, well then I would agree it is strictly a DRL, however, otherwise it is really a bottleneck relief line. This bottleneck, is getting close to being so overloaded that it will ultimately back up into the entire subway system, materially delaying trains across the network. Riders waiting to board Yonge Trains core bound will block the exit of Yonge riders and delay those trains, and ultimately back up onto the Bloor line platforms. Riders – even from Rexdale, will see delays when they finally do reach a subway line.
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How about a shallow tunnel or small trench for 250m or 500m through some of the tight intersections like Bathurst and Finch to speed up service. Like the way the streetcar sinks into Spadina Station or Eglinton W. and comes back out. This is thinking outside the box, something we need a little more of. It’s mostly a few intersections that the problems really happen in.
Steve: A shallow tunnel is not a small undertaking given the need to relocate utilities that would occupy the same space. Also, the amount of bus service through Bathurst & Finch will be substantially reduced once the LRT opens west from Keele (Finch West Station).
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Does this have to devolve into a debate onto what to call the future Line 3? Let’s leave the Davisville Relief Line naming out of it.
… I’ll get my hat …
Steve: I think “line 3” should be recycled and assigned to the DRL.
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… I’ll get my hat …
I personally care not at all what it is called, but for it to be subway relief really for downtown – the line would actually involve pouring concrete in the tunnels beyond the tunnels just east of Vic Park, just North of Eglinton, just north of St. Clair West, and West of Keele.
That would mean that those who were downtown and wanted to use the subway would have lots of space – and would provide plenty of relief for downtown. The subway is being used across a large chunk of the city/region, and is being filled by buses from across most of the city. That system is in jeopardy because of an overload condition.
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So what stopped Scarborough from having a plan before amalgamation? I mean, the city never created a new one for North York and has only been following the one that they developed in the 1980’s with the exception of the planned office towers being replaced with condos resulting in the traffic disaster it is today.
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Besides the clever knife to Smart Track, the capital plan Moving Ontario Forward does a nice snow job on spending outside the GTHA. It ‘balances’ $16B in spending in the GTHA on RER and Peel’s LRT (plus some yet-to-be-chosen project of unknown mode in Hamilton), against a truly odd grab bag of capital and operating items outside the GTHA. The items are listed in Chart 1.10 on p.54 of the PDF.
Even stranger is that a number of the non-GTHA items also serve the GTHA or will be primarily spent there, since the GHTA is home to most of the firms that get the design, build and finance contracts.
– Ontario Community Infrastructure Fund, Small Communities Fund. Small-time pork programs.
– Connecting Links program (resurfacing some of the former provincial highways that got downloaded to munies in the Harris years).
– Southern Highways Program (actually spends most of its funds in the GTHA in many years). The budget specifically calls out the Hwy 7 project between Guelph and Kitchener, plus the widening of the 417 in Ottawa (which will soon be completed under funds from last year’s budget).
– Northern Highways Program.
– Ring of Fire investments (will mostly serve mining and financial industries based in Toronto. 40-50% of funding will go to FN ‘fees’). Assuming it ever goes ahead. This file is repeatedly screwed up by this gov’t.
– Projects to expand access to Natural Gas. (good grief)
– Additional Infrastructure Investments to Support Economic Growth.
– Additional Infrastructure Investments to Support Transportation (e.g. High speed rail EA study – mostly work done by GTA firms).
There are obvious parallels between 1) the higher per-capita highway spending in rural and Northern Ontario compared to urban Ontario, and 2) the higher per-capita transit spending in the GTHA.
However, much of the rest is merely random assignment to this list for the benefit of summing up to $15B. There’s little rationale why expanding Natural Gas is in this list and expanding hospitals is not (ignoring that hospitals are more likely to close than expand in towns and rural Ontario). Comparable pork programs and spending in the GHTA are not listed under its column. Also important is that most of this is ‘old’ spending. That matters considering that Hydro One is the largest asset being sold, and Hydro One primarily serves rural Ontario.
Many of the half of Ontarians outside the GTHA are not happy to see new provincial dollars only go to one region. While there are some counter-arguments (e.g. highway spending), this budget rather strongly validates that objection.
Even the ‘GTHA $16B’ is mostly to be spent in the 905, not 416, further concentrating the benefits of most new infrastructure spending over the next 10 years on only 25% of the population.
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The province which was concerned only for the welfare of the rich areas of the old city of Toronto.
P.S: Well, said Joe!
Steve: You might want to cite chapter and verse when blaming the province for interfering with Scarborough’s planning.
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The Liberals have spent billions to build luxurious bus rapidways in York Region (Ontario’s RI$ING $TAR), why is the Liberal government so short-sighted as to have all day 2 way service on the Barrie Line only until Aurora and not Newmarket where it could connect to the rapidway opening later this year on Davis Drive? Similarly, the Liberals are promising an LRT to Brampton GO station and yet all day 2 way service stops one station to the east at Bramalea? My question for you Steve is the following: Why are the Liberals so short-sighted? Actually, the reason why all day 2 way service does not go to Brampton Station to connect to the proposed LRT is probably that MI$$I$$AUGA never had any intentions of allowing LRT in Brampton. MI$$I$$AUGA is the bully of Peel Region much like Downtown is of Toronto. Toronto has been complaining that the budget does not contain enough goodies for them and yet there are tens of billions of dollars of transit projects currently or recently underway in Toronto (new subway cars, new streetcars, Spadina subway extension, UPX, Eglinton LRT, countless new GO RER and SmartTrack stations in Toronto while no new (to be constructed) all day stations are expected outside of Toronto, and the list goes on and on and on and yet the greedy TORONTONIAN$ keep $HAMELE$$LY complaining) – all these Toronto projects subsidised by other parts of the province like Hamilton which have gotten absolutely nothing and also subsidized by poorer parts of Toronto which have gotten only false promises (and hence nothing built) such as Scarborough, Rexdale, Jane and Finch, etc.
MI$$I$$AUGA has long been riding freely at the expense of Brampton taxpayers and it is time that Brampton get it’s independence from them by bowing out of Peel Region. We need activists like Mr Robert Wightman to fight for Brampton’s independence. Scarborough should likewise leave Toronto as soon as the Scarborough subway comes into operation and before construction begins on the DRL.
Steve: Posted for comic relief only.
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I am so puzzled about how a demagogue was so able to brainwash so many people. Get real “folks” (to use his favourite expression). Subways subways subways, had nothing to do with a real desire to build and fund public transit – except of course with “fairy dust”. It had everything to do with prioritizing the car and especially the SUV. Get those pesky transit users underground, and its clear sailing for vehicles with 1.2 people in each one.
Of course, a transit system that is properly managed and provides adequate service benefits Rexdale. Many Rexdale residents use the BD Subway, and when service is disrupted by congestion at Bloor-Yonge, they suffer as does everyone else. In addition, a properly funded and run transit service would provide local service to Rexdale by the appropriate delivery method and frequency. (I remember when the Islington 37 ran every 35 minutes midday.)
As for Scarborough, is not Victoria Park in Scarborough, is not Warden in Scarborough. What about Kennedy. Maybe the subway was built as far as it made sense into diminishing density, just as it ends in in Etobicoke after a similar three stops. (Old Mill is only barely in Etobicoke and is stop #4.)
In your blog the question of running LRT in the Sheppard subway has been debated at length. I am no expert on rolling stock, tunnels and power supply, but even a layman like me can understand that if the loading level on an LRT car is a metre or more different from the platform level such an arrangement is a bit impractical. It also is a bit difficult if the vehicle and its power supply don’t fit in the tunnel. Gauge has nothing to do with it.
It’s your blog Steve, and you edit the comments. However, I would like to respectfully suggest that henceforth all comments about who “deserves” transit should be deleted. This blogs comment section is better served by a discussion about who “needs” transit and the best method of supplying the same. I think the comment section is best served catering to people who care rather than people who resent.
There is so much great information on this blog and its comments – some of it above my head. That is why it is the number one bookmark on my computer. Sometimes I learn and sometimes I am puzzled. (One of these days I will understand what a “sub” is and why commenters have such detailed knowledge about them.) However, I am finding the “deserves” comments to be really tiresome.
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You are correct that track gauge is only one requirement. Some others are called gauges as well.
The shape or cross-section of a vehicle and its power supply is called the “loading gauge”. The required cross-section of bridges and tunnels is called the “structural gauge”, and must include space with tolerance beyond the loading gauge.
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Interesting. So, for about 76 years, no one else knew that North York was a part of the old city of Toronto. I mean, that must be the only reasonable explanation for why North York was able to develop their plan without interference from multiple provincial governments that were willing to suppress any development plan outside of the wealthy parts of old Toronto.
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“Sub” is short for “Subdivision” which is basically the name given to a rail line between two major areas. On CN we have the Kingston sub which runs between Toronto and Montreal, the Oakville sub between Toronto and Hamilton, The Bala sub between Toronto and Capreol via Richmond Hill. At least one of the engineer or conductor has to be “qualified” on the sub that the train is operating on. If a train has to divert on another sub or another railway then they need a “pilot”, an engineer or conductor familiar with that sub to explain all the restrictions and local rules to the operating crew.
Keep reading and keep asking questions when you don’t know or understand a term. Remember if you are unsure then there are a lot of other people who are uncertain to but are afraid to ask.
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First I would like to send a big thanks again to Steve for not keeping the comments to those who “know all about of transit planning”. There’s many greater issues with the proposed lines you mentioned above far more complex than you care to understand.
You summarize the average one-sided misconceptions & misunderstandings very well in your post. This is why I feel many are hopeless when it comes to understanding the under-served areas of the City & likely never will.
Connectivity with existing infrastructure, Public Segregation/funding, & Efficient route planning, were all failures in the design of the LRT plan we being sold to Toronto’s transit neglected regions. If the politicians are not willing to design it effectively than you’ll never see the support needed. Scarborough’s needs are much more complicated & differ over over a massive area & simple minded, partially funded plan is not the solution.
I am fully aware of the needs in Downtown, Etobicoke & North York and would advocate for a fully functional, well integrated, well maintained fair Toronto transit network any day. And we need to pay for it together to get there. Period.
Living in an area of Toronto which is neglected by public transit it’s unfortunate to read some of the posts here from those that think they understand what “we need”, but it’s an open forum & I respectively disagree but would never think that your points are worthless.
I agree there are many great posters who provide high quality analysis & data on the existing system and current upgrades to existing systems. But also many “facts” are screwed here to support the simple belief that this inefficient LRT plan is what the underserved areas of Toronto require.
[Steve: I changed “undeserved” to “underserved” in the previous line which, I hope, was the word you intended. It completely changes the meaning.]
Politics has left us with a simple minded Subways vs LRTs debate but no real solid plan for either technology in Toronto. It doesn’t matter how much of an expert you are, it’s unfortunate that we are in this situation.
Last comment. Are you really claiming that you “deserve” your own segregated comments section for like minded posters?
Thanks again Steve
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Joe M:
The greater issue is the lack of overall development plan for Scarborough & unfortunately the haves of the City don’t allow much of a quality plan to develop & are too worried about their own funding needs to help lobby for the largest neglected land mass in Toronto.
Joe M:
The majority of the blame falls on the dysfunctional Municipality first. Second the province is responsible for”supporting” 2 incomplete plans & even scaling them back. Third the Federal government for lack of funds & recognition to the problem.
The Province’s OMB has also done little to support Scarborough Citizens in their fight against bottom feeder developers on key pieces of land in areas deprived of transit & other services. That’s another topic all together.
Those posters that continue to point out historical errors from old Scarborough council for mistakes of the past over 15 years ago need to cut the BS. It’s time to move forward & plan for a better Scarborough & Toronto. This backwards rhetoric provides absolutely nothing useful whatsoever.
Steve: I acknowledge the need to look forward, but even you talk about “the dysfunctional municipality”. I think my issue is with the “but for those nasty, rich downtowners, Scarborough would have its place in the sun” argument. The history is important if only for context. All three of the major suburbs in Toronto — Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough — created low income, high density ghettos and they did this without any help from the folks downtown. We need to fix this, but we can’t pretend that this was just dropped on suburbs that wanted to preserve their own affluent areas.
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The bias in your post is apparent from the fact that you have no qualms about counting Victoria Park (at the boundary of Scarborough) in Scarborough and yet for Old Mill which is well inside the boundary of Etobicoke you have qualms counting it as in Etobicoke and saying things like “barely in Etobicoke”. Also Scarborough has a higher population and density than Etobicoke and yet has fewer stations than Etobicoke.
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While the Province has been pretty clear that they aren’t paying for SmartTrack stations unless another funding partner is found, what’s less clear is Tory’s promise on SmartTrack’s fare:
From the Sun:
Is it likely that the Province will charge the SmartTrack fare for the portions of GO RER that overlap with the SmartTrack route even if SmartTrack stations never get built? Would that force GO to lower the fares for all of 416 to match the fare TTC charges or is Metrolinx more inclined to continue to charge more for GO than TTC charges under the premise that people are willing to pay more for faster trains?
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What happened to the Queens Quay East LRT? I’d have thought with all the development proposed and underway (e.g., Daniels, East Bayfront, Monde condo), it would have been mentioned. Or is this a victim of the Gardiner debate?
Steve: It’s a combination of the Gardiner and the uncertainty over Waterfront Toronto’s future, coupled with the TTC’s lack of support for the project. There is also an on-again, off-again support at Queen’s Park. When Glen Murray (whose riding includes the eastern waterfront) was Transportation Minister, he talked about funding this in part from the sale of the LCBO lands. He has fallen silent since moving to the Environment portfolio.
The real shame is that work on Union Station Loop could have been done concurrently with the shutdown for Queens Quay’s reconstruction, but the Ford era was no time to be pushing a new “streetcar” project or making the Union Station project look even more expensive than it already was.
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I don’t mind admitting to a bias – and that is I hate to see megabucks squandered on subways that we don’t need. That goes for building a subway to a field in Vaughan as much as it does to the Scarborough subway extension. These under-utilised subways will squander operating costs for many years to come – essentially forever in the context of our lifetimes.
The Spadina subway was not built in the “highest and best use” location and is still turning back some of its trains in rush hour. The location was set for purely political reasons. The Dufferin bus – which could have been a subway route – is still a very difficult ride for its many riders.
The operating funds spent on these subways cannot be used to better serve areas that “need” transit – such as Rexdale, Malvern and Downsview among others. The capital funds wasted will never be available to upgrade the mode in in these areas either – be it LRT BRT or more articulated buses – whatever the community feels it needs. I don’t presume to say what mode is best, but without money we can be guaranteed it will be nothing.
We live in a society where tax income is very limited and every politician is afraid to raise taxes. I am more than willing to pay more, but politicians won’t ask for it. (I do understand that I can give a gift to the City – but my 50 bucks, or even 500 won’t build a transit line. We all need to participate if our society is to improve.)
As for Old Mill, I left it out because it is such a low volume station that serves very few. My mistake however, was participating in the 4 vs. 3 or whatever discussion. It does little for a person in minus 20C weather, waiting for a bus that is overdue and too full to get on when it comes.
As for my suggestion about comments, it did not apply to everyone except those that agree with a certain point of view. It applied to those who “resent” and want to deny others because they don’t have the same. We need to pull together to make a better transit system for all.
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I won’t brand them as “nasty rich downtown” as that’s just an extreme political slogan. But there is no denying the massive outside resistance holding back from Scarborough form moving forward in a positive direction.
These ‘ghettos’ were not originally meant to be built for poor. Some were gifts to developers & downtown did the exact same. But one major difference is that downtown received public transit and made these area desirable for re-development.
The continuing lack of public investment & political gamesmanship are what’s been dropped on Scarborough & the affluent areas do nothing to help others than fight to prevent any real quality investments into Toronto’s neglected areas & they are only concerned with quality their own backyard.
I don’t think the “haves” of the City are nasty. I just think it’s unfortunate that many are so oblivious to the segregation & absorbed in their own little world that they can’t be part of a quality solution. There is a reason Richmond Hill is getting a Subway & it has nothing to do with necessity.
Also poor citizens unfortunately don’t have enough political influence to lobby the powers that be & also don’t have high media outlet spewing their narrative like the Toronto Star, Metro Media etc. I’ve been lucky enough to live over a few cities in the GTA & lived Downtown but I’m sure if I only grew up in that bubble I probably wouldn’t realize the blatant inequality either.
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Are we really going to do this again?
Almost all of those “ghettos” are served by streetcars, not subway. And almost all that infrastructure was first built before Scarborough was anything more than farmland (but let’s put aside that for a moment). Scarborough had many decades of independence in which they could have made their own decisions on these matters. They could have built a streetcar line along Kingston, from Victoria Park to at least Lawrence. They could have built one along Eglinton or St. Clair. They could have built one along Lawrence or Sheppard.
They also could have advocated much harder to extend the Scarborough RT all the way to Malvern, as was originally intended. They could have built dedicated bus lanes all over the place and advocated for more bus service.
So why do we have none of these things? It certainly wasn’t meddling downtowners. You could argue poor foresight on the part of the Scarborough politicians, but the truth is much simpler: the people of Scarborough didn’t want it. Scarborough was built for commuting by car. The wide roads, large lots, and low density – all in stark contrast to downtown – were built specifically with car commuting in mind. The people of Scarborough (and more specifically, the affluent, predominantly white Scarborough taxpayers) did not want to pay for better transit. They wanted to drive their cars everywhere, and they didn’t want to pay for buses that would get in the way. This is, for what it’s worth, primarily the same reasons places like Mississauga and Oakville have such mediocre to poor transit as well.
So the reason there are streetcars in Regent Park and Parkdale, but not in Malvern or Galloway is the people of Scarborough don’t want them. Note that I said don’t and not didn’t. This is because we are still hearing the same crap from Scarborough as before. They were offered a newer, better version of a similar technology which serves those downtown “ghettos” which is ideally suited to the Scarborough geography. They lost their minds about nasty transit users clogging up their precious streets and immediately elected a man whose first order of business was to cancel the whole thing.
Now, Scarborough wants a subway instead. They want to get those nasty transit users underground where they belong (I suspect they haven’t considered the 10 years of construction hell they’re facing). They want a 3 stop subway extension, which will save maybe 5-10 minutes for the average person commuting downtown over an LRT that connects at the same level at Kennedy.
And that’ll be it. If the subway is ever extended beyond that point, it would be to connect to Sheppard, or to extend it into Markham. For the next 15 years at least, there will be no major transit infrastructure spending in Scarborough, because it will once again be everybody else’s turn, and the poor Scarborough card will have been played. There will be no transit to gentrify Malvern, and Galloway, and Markham and Eglinton, and countless others.
Scarborough is about to make the same mistake it has made over and over for 50 years. They do it to themselves.
And I know you’ll go to the well about how the LRT plan wasn’t fully funded. Well guess what? That’s how transit building works. The Yonge subway was only built from Union to Eglinton initially, but once they had the carhouse and the line to connect to, they were able to extend it to St George and beyond. The 509 Harbourfront exists because there was some existing track and a bunch of extra streetcars.
If Scarborough had allowed the transit city plan to proceed, there would be a working line and, more importantly, a working carhouse. There would be a provincial government willing to fund LRT lines and looking for vehicle orders to send to Thunder Bay. There would be more lines with work already done on planning stages. All the hardest work would be done, and all the pieces would be in place to build more.
Instead, the one line and the carhouse is in jeopardy. Funding that could have gone to a Scarborough LRT network is going to Mississauga/Brampton, Hamilton, and the 3 stop subway extension. Scarborough is apparently getting what it wants – another few decades of bad transit.
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@ Colin Olford,
The Scarborough LRT was a joke. We don’t like the current RT & don’t care to extend it. The route sucks, the transfer sucks. The whole funded portion of the LRT plan is a joke.
If we are only receiving stub lines of transit with poor connectivity to the current system than we are better served with a subway extension along an more effective route.
I would certainly blame the opposing “elite” for & not helping to support a fair & efficient plan going forward & spreading their narrative through their media outlets. That’s the issue right now. We can’t blame outsiders (or “Downtowners” as you troll) for the past or the current plan, & funding issues. There’s lots of blame to go around & it’s better to just move forward in a well planned direction.
If you want to have a LRT discussion with us please ensure the plan is fair, well integrated, has efficient routes & doesn’t segregate large areas who will be left out for another 100 years.
Steve: Left out areas? Like all of eastern Scarborough in the subway plan?
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Yes, it is incredibly hard to get a commitment of $4+ billion to build anything in any small area. It is too much concentrated to serve too few, to allow it to give the ability to sprinkle a little around to keep everybody happy. It is feasible, when it is perceived (and really will) help a huge number of people. However, getting $100-200 million is a whole heck of lot easier to get during every elections cycle, or even $60-80 million per year in a single riding. The province could commit to on-going construction in such a situation, where the car houses, and initial lines already existed. It would permit a political large announcement, to huge fanfare, for a sum of money that would not be seen to be preventing development elsewhere. GO/RER is viable partly because it is seen to serve the entire GTHA, and can be rolled out over many years, with reasonable dollops everywhere.
Scarborough could have gotten the initial couple of lines, then comfortably pushed for and received a couple of multi km extensions with each and every election cycle. Sheppard would likely have seen $250 ++million in the way of extensions/improvements just to keep everybody on board, in the next cycle, as would SRT replacement. That would mean 3,4,5 extra km each.
The problem with wanting everything all at once is that it often results in getting nothing; the minimum becomes unaffordable.
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And Etobicoke! (Finally)
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I started listening to the Freakonomics podcast over the weekend, and they had an episode on transit usage. In the US, average ridership was 1.6 persons per car and 10 per bus and 3447 BTU per mile per car-passenger and 4118 BTU per bus-passenger.
I’m not sure if they included any knock-on effects, like reduced fuel use of other vehicles due to reduced congestion, but it does present the odd fact that in many situations, mass transit isn’t “green”, but it does solve transportation issues.
To answer the logical follow-up question, there was a study done that suggested retracking the Sheppard subway as LRT would be more expensive than the cost savings and incremental increase in ridership.
Spot on for what? Tax Increment Financing for the Central Core, East Donlands, and Liberty Village to raise $2.5B? From what I’ve seen, just to increase the through capacity of Union Station enough to handle 8 trains more per rush-hour, would cost $3B to $6B.
Basically, Ontario has said they’re going ahead with their plans, and SmartTrack can die a quiet death after Tory’s no longer mayor.
Tory is quite happy to extend outside Toronto’s borders, but in his primers he stated that others would pay for those segments.
Joe, rather than railing against how no one else will ever likely understand Scarborough as you, why don’t you discuss the issues that you think are being overlooked. I completely agree that Scarborough would be better served with more transit. We differ opinions of type and possibly location. If we can move beyond generalities, then an actual discussion can be had and possible understanding increased.
The issue is that at no level of government do we have an appetite for more debt to build transit. Toronto is too close to their debt ceiling to do anything substantial. Ontario is still running a deficit. And Ottawa has cut economic crash cushions and sold assets to present an election budget in the black.
It’s highly unlikely. GO and TTC couldn’t agree on a fare subsidy for GO users who connect to TTC (like every other connecting transit network). At the end of the day, we might see time-of-day based GO Presto fares, but why undercut the bottom line when demand is there at an expensive price point? The best case scenario that I can see would be $5 TTC fares that GO might match.
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1) Richmond Hill is not getting a subway. For logistical reasons, a DRL would need to be built first, so an RH extension would have to be 20+ years away, despite being listed in the ‘Next Wave’ of the Big Move.
2) I would wager that there is more travel demand on that stretch of Yonge Street than wherever the SSE ends up. AM Peak bus frequency south of Major Mack has been under 4 minutes for at least two decades. South of Steeles it’s probably 45 seconds.
If the SSE had not screwed everything up, Scarborough would have had 2 LRT lines operating by the end of this year, with likely a 3rd and maybe even a 4th built in the Next Wave. Meanwhile, York Region would still be building BRT lines. Considering York has the higher population, Scarborough had a chance for better transit than anywhere else in the city outside downtown, and blew it.
It is tragic how Scarborough managed to support pols who in return destroyed its brighter future.
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Scarborough’s opinion of the SRT wasn’t always like that, and I was referring more to the early days of the line. But regardless, the reason it has its admittedly terrible route is because nobody in Scarborough wanted it in their neighbourhood. They wanted the transit and transit users out of their way, so they ended up in a rail corridor through an industrial area.
I don’t think that route is hopeless though. Personally, I’d add a bus loop at Ellesmere for integration with the 95, like at Lawrence East, maybe eliminate the stop at Midland, and turn the parking lot north of McCowan into a kiss and ride with a walking bridge over the road. I think that, plus an extension to Bellamy and beyond, could make the route far more worthwhile.
As has been mentioned to you over and over, the transfer situation at Kennedy was going to be vastly improved with the LRT replacement.
Again, we’ve been over this. Sheppard East is not a stub in any way, shape or form. Neither is the SRT route when extended into Malvern. A transit line does not have to be 20km+ to be valuable and worthwhile. Was the original Toronto subway a stub line in your mind? And neither line suffered from poor connectivity any more than the Sheppard and Yonge lines suffer from poor connectivity.
And who said that those two lines were all that Scarborough would get? They were to be all that Scarborough would get immediately, but do you really think that would be it forever? Again, Sheppard came with the hardest part, the carhouse. Once you had that, expansion was much, much easier. The Eglinton/Kingston/Morningside line in the original Transit City plans, for example, would likely have cost about the same as the Finch line, and less than the Hurontario-Main line. If Scarborough politicians had embraced LRT instead of fighting it, it would have been an easy win for the provincial government to build that line, where people want it, instead of the Finch line, where the local politicians are fighting it.
This is how transit building works. The hardest part is getting the ball rolling. Kennedy station exists because there was already a subway to Warden, and extending to Kennedy was a reasonable option that didn’t require as much investment as an entirely new line. Same deal with Kipling. And the TYSSE. The only reason the SSE exists on paper is because of the E – if this was an entirely new subway line it would have been dismissed out of hand like the fantasies of subway on Finch.
You talk about this a lot, but you never give any concrete examples. Certainly I’m sure that Steve, as one of the key players in Transit City, supports building a full LRT network in Scarborough. You point to the Star and Metroland Media, but while I certainly see columnists there railing against the SSE, I don’t see them at all opposed to spending money on transit in Scarborough. In fact, I frequently see them pointing out all the LRT we could build there with that money, and how that makes more sense. But where are the people saying we should cancel the SSE and build nothing in Scarborough? Where are these “elites” who are “not helping to support a fair & efficient plan going forward & spreading their narrative through their media outlets”?
And as a former longtime resident of East Scarborough, and someone who still commutes to the region regularly for work, the SSE is nowhere close to a fair and efficient plan for large swaths of the region.
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Amen, frankly the debate needs to stop being about what is “fair” to a borough, and be about what provides best service to the most riders. Subway for those who happen to be close to it and core bound would likely be a great answer — but does this represent the real ridership, and potential ridership of the area. Most of “downtown” is not walking distance to subway, and it does not make sense to build subway for areas that would have higher ridership than what this subway extension would likely generate in a post RER world. A Queen subway would likely generate reasonably high ridership — does not make it a great idea. The shoulder areas make massive use of Streetcar (higher than bus routes), but does that mean they should be replaced with subway?
The approach everybody needs to get their heads around is biggest improvement in service, for the smallest capital investment, and smallest increase in operating costs. That perforce means reducing the run length of bus routes and providing improved local service as well. Right now it almost seems that the debate is about subway for subways sake versus LRT to provide an understood and quantified benefit.
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