The details of GO Transit’s service improvements and electrification leading to the rollout of the “RER” (Regional Express Rail) network were announced today by Minister of Transportation Steven Del Duca.
The plans will please some and disappoint others, but there is little to surprise anyone familiar with the details of GO Transit’s network and the constraints of the rail lines around the GTHA.
If there are “winners and losers” in this announcement, the benefits clearly fall (a) on lines that are completely under Metrolinx ownership and control and (b) on lines that do not already have full service, that is to say, there is room for growth.
Electrification is planned for most corridors by 2022-2024 starting with the Kitchener and Stouffville routes in 2022-23, followed by Barrie and the Lakeshore in 2023-24. The announcement is silent on the UPX service on the Kitchener line and whether the inner portion of the corridor will be electrified as a first step for UPX before 2022. (I have a query out to Metrolinx on this topic.) These dates have implications for rolling stock plans including purchase of whatever new technology — electric locomotives or EMUs — will be used for electric services, and, by implication the eventual fate of the existing fleet.
The scope of electrification will be:
- Kitchener line: Bramalea to Union
- Stouffville line: Unionville to Union
- Lakeshore East: Full corridor
- Lakeshore West: Burlington to Union
- Barrie: Full corridor
There are no plans to electrify either the Milton or Richmond Hill lines, nor to substantially improve service on them. In Milton’s case, this is a direct result of the line’s status as the CPR mainline. On Richmond Hill, significant flood protection works are needed in the Don Valley as well as a grade separation at Doncaster. Plans could change in coming years, but Queen’s Park has clearly decided where to concentrate its spending for the next decade – on the lines where improved service and electrification are comparatively easy to implement.
The limits of electrification correspond, for the most part, to the territory where all-day 15-minute service will be provided. This will be the core of the “RER” network with less frequent, diesel-hauled trains providing service running through to the non-electrified portions.
One important aspect of the line-by-line chart of service improvements is that there will be substantially more trips (most in the offpeak) before electrification is completed. This allows GO to “show the flag” as an all-day provider and build into a role as a regional rapid transit service, not just a collection of peak period commuter lines. This will also give local transit a chance to build up to improved GO service over time rather than a “big bang” with all of the changes awaiting electrification.
Over the five years 2015-2020, the Kitchener corridor will see the greatest increase in number of trains, although many of these will not actually run through all the way to Kitchener. The service build-up will finish in 2017.
The Barrie line will receive weekend service in 2016-17 with weekday off-peak service following in 2017-18. The Stouffville line also gets weekday service in 2017-18, while weekend service follows in 2018-19.
Minor off-peak improvements are planned for both Lakeshore corridors in 2018-19.
Peak service improvements relative to today vary depending on the corridor:
- Lakeshore East: 4 more trains by 2018-19 on a base of 45 (9%)
- Lakeshore West: 6 more trains by 2019-20 on a base of 47 (13%)
- Stouffville: 4 more trains by 2018-19 on a base of 12 (33%)
- Kitchener: 6 more trains by 2019-20 on a base of 15 (40%)
- Milton: 6 more trains by 2019-20 on a base of 18 (33%)
- Barrie: 2 more trains in 2019-20 on a base of 14 (14%)
- Richmond Hill: 4 more trains by 2018-19 on a base of 8 (50%)
- Total: 32 more trains by 2019-20 on a base of 159 (20%)
Other than making trains longer (where this has not already occurred), that’s the limitation of peak period growth for the next five years on GO Transit. This has important implications for projections of greater transit commuting along the GO corridors, and especially for the shoulder areas within Toronto itself that lie along GO routes, but also face capacity and travel time issues with the local transit system. Unlocking gridlock may be the goal, but the rate of service growth could not be described as “aggressive” especially against the background growth in population and jobs.
This will, or at least should, lead to renewed discussion both of rapid transit capacity within Toronto, and on how GO Transit will address growth beyond 2020. Where should new capacity be provided? What are the realistic upper bounds for various options? How will Toronto deal with demand for expanded suburban subway service to handle growth in the 905?
It is quite clear from the electrification dates that an electric SmartTrack is not going to start running soon, and with frequent all-day service to Bramalea, Aurora and Unionville using diesel-hauled trains operating well before electrification is completed, one might wonder just where SmartTrack as a separate “local” service will fit in.
Beyond these questions lie the more complex issues of travel that is not bound for Toronto’s core. “Gridlock” is commonly cited as the rational for transit spending, and yet this spending does little to improve travel anywhere beyond existing corridors to central Toronto. Demand in the GTHA is not conveniently focused on a few points, not even on Pearson Airport which is a major centre, and single-route improvements do not address the diverse travel patterns of GTHA commuters.
Ontario will spend billions on transit in the coming decade, and sticker-shock has already set in with the huge amount of infrastructure needed. Even this is only a start and the work to truly address travel requirements of the coming decades is only just starting.
Steve Munro 
Steve, on the routes that will not be 100% electrified, how will this work?
Will each train going to Aldershot, for example, have to change locomotives at Burlington (killing any savings in time), not have an electric engine (which questions why taxpayers should be paying for electrification if it is not going to be used 100%), or will they use dual purpose locomotives?
Steve: This is something of a mystery. It is possible that service will be a mixture of through diesel trains to Hamilton and Burlington electrics. Parts of this have a feeling of an announcement that was pushed out the door as part of the buildup to the budget, and also to go along with the Hydro One sale.
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I will not argue about your reasoning behind not electrifying the Milton Line but in the case of RICHmond Hill, the decision to not electrify is simply playing politics to try to justify a completely unnecessary subway to low density RICHmond Hill which also has few jobs and a subway to RICHmond Hill is simply unnecessary. Electrified all day 2 way frequent service on the RICHmond Hill line would have killed the future RICHmond Hill subway ridership (precisely also why Oriole station would NOT be moved closer to Leslie subway station as otherwise the RICHmond Hill subway trains would run nearly empty north of Steeles). Please join me, Steve, in condemning any talk of a subway to RICHmond Hill.
Does the decision to not electrify the Milton Line has any impact on future GO Train extension or lack thereof to Cambridge? Since many of the lines are only being partly electrified, will the trains be hybrid electric so that at least some of them could be used to serve the poorer non-electrified regions as well? Or will train service in poorer non-electrified areas be killed to pay for electrifying richer areas? Can existing GO Train coaches be used in electric trains? How will these plans affect subway plans in Toronto’s poorest area east of Victoria Park*? I would be willing to consider LRT to Scarborough instead of the subway but only if Scarborough citizens (citizenship based on birth only) are given unlimited free transit ridership (on any transit system in Canada including air based ones) and free coffee for life.
* There is a reason (i.e. discrimination against the poor) why the Sheppard subway stopped short of Victoria Park.
Steve: I am tempted to delete this bilge, but will let it through just to show everyone else that you simply won’t give up on your “poor Scarborough” tripe. The explanation re the lack of frequent service to Richmond Hill is from the government announcement, although I tend to agree at least from the point of view that there isn’t enough money to do everything, and the expensive ones will fall off of the table.
The subway stopped at Don Mills because Mike Harris cut off funding for the project. He would have killed the line completely but (a) it was fairly well advanced when he came to power and (b) he needed Mel Lastman’s support for the Megacity. It has nothing to do with “poor Scarborough”.
As for your coffee and free transit demand, I can only hope that the rest of Scarborough can’t be bought off that easily. Either an LRT network is an unmitigated evil that should be opposed at all costs, or you can be bought off. As Bernard Shaw once said in another context, “we know what you are, now we’re only haggling over price”.
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I was surprised to see the Barrie line 15-minute service is to stop at Aurora, with more intermittent service north of there. Given Newmarket’s larger population than Aurora and the Viva rapidway and increased density being built on Davis Drive, I had assumed the service would at least extend to there.
Would you have any idea how Metrolinx made the call to draw the line where it did?
Steve: Don’t forget that the services listed are only the five year plan. It is possible that Metrolinx does not expect to have enough double track to run full service up to Barrie within that timeframe.
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“The Barrie line will receive weekend service in 2016-17 with weekday off-peak service following in 2017-18.”
Capacity and equipment are currently available to implement weekend & off-peak service on the Barrie line. So what’s the constraint preventing sooner implementation? Is there lack of demand? Is it the operational cost or is the line not presently configured for bi-directional operation?
Steve: I’m fairly sure that it’s a question of waiting for enough track capacity to support weekday operation, notably at the Davenport Diamond where the line now crosses the CPR at grade.
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Sure would be nice if they could reach a deal with CPR about the Milton Line to be 2 way all day. The rush hour traffic on the 401/403 is a mess, Milton and western portions of Mississauga have fairly spotty transit, and there are only so many lanes the province can keep building out to Kitchener.
At least the Brampton plans should relieve some of the traffic on the 410.
Steve: I also think that this announcement is a case of going with what they know they can achieve and leaving the rest for another day. If we had to wait for every corridor’s problems to be solved, we would be waiting years for any announcement beyond the odd new train here and there.
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On a quick scan of this; something leaped out – the Don Valley flooding impairing GO service. But how much of that storm surge is from all that car-based asphalt that floods the valley, and so why do we not have a drainage user fee or asphalt tax? While we all use roads at some point, yes, so there’s communal benefit, maybe all the driveways and parking lots need to be disconnected, and perhaps then Don Valley storm surges may be greatly lessened.
Steve: The Don River drains a huge area of north central Toronto and York Region. Some of the effect is paved surfaces, but some is simply how the river works. After all, that huge valley was carved out long before the river had runoff from parking lots to deal with.
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At this point in time, I’m just glad anything is finally going to get done at all.
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During the election campaign, the Liberals had promised all day 2 way electric service on all lines and now that they won a majority, they quietly backtracked (completely dropping 2 lines) and only the Liberal/urban parts of other lines are being electrified and readied for all day service. If you don’t believe me, then please do a station by station and riding by riding analysis and you will find that over 90% of the stations to get all day electric service are Liberally held and the only Tory stations getting service are the ones which fall on their way to a Liberal station. It is time to end the partisanship and deliver quality service to all whether rich or poor, black or white, Liberal or Conservative – Amen!
Steve: The promise was a ridiculous one when it was made, and anyone who knows the lay of the land for railways in the GTHA could have told you years ago which lines were likely candidates for service improvements. However, politicians don’t like to be bothered by details. See also SmartTrack and High Speed Rail.
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What is the timeline for the UPX electrification?
Steve: We don’t know. I asked Metrolinx, and they replied that they expect to have more to announce soon. I suspect some of this is bound up in the timing of budget-related publicity.
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Why don’t we have one train devoted to one track Richmond Hill line to provide all day infrequent but reliable on-time service?
Steve: If you don’t mind a train every two hours or so, it wouldn’t be bad, but not exactly the sort of thing to make much of a dent in demand on the Yonge subway.
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Richmond Hill would become massively more useful with more stations in the Valley. Infrastructure to interchange with Castlefrank TTC, Eglinton Crossrown LRT, and Leslie on Sheppard TTC (make that waste of a route less of a waste).
Long scenic escalators, or inclinators, or even gondola (Brazil uses some for public transit) can bring people between Castlefrank TTC and a future Don Valley Station. Some people travelling towards downtown core from the east can get off there instead of the overcrowded Bloor-Yonge interchange. The view and the speed of 15-minute Richmond Hill RER straight to downtown be an attraction. All the extra interchanges put many much needed transit loops into Toronto’s system and provide measurable eastern relief.
Steve: This whole business of a link at Castle Frank comes up again, but it ignores the fact that this would be a terrible location for people making an outbound “relief” connection. The stop is too close to Yonge for any meaningful space to have opened up on eastbound trains to handle transfer traffic. There is also no place to put an actual station between the Don River and Bayview Avenue. I agree that there is an attraction for riders from further north, but stations in the valley are a non-starter because of (a) problems with the sites and (b) access times that would add substantially to total trip times.
Also, I observe the Hurontario LRT plan just became a massively more useful western relief line, despite it being North-South. Under the new RER plan, All three GO stations it serves is supposed to get 15-minute peak service (and allday in the case of Lakeshore West).
All of this, combined with ECLRT interchanges with 15-min all day Kitchener-Unionville core route (SmartTrack segment), could in total produce noticeable relief to TTC subway more cheaply than a DRL. I would love DRL, but if all the above was done (a dozen good GO interchanges to LRT and TTC), for hopefully less incremental cost to the plan than a full DRL, I now wonder it enough adds up that it may even be equivalent in combined relief.
Hopefully future upgrades (e.g. Phase 2) takes this into consideration.
Steve: I am constantly amazed at the contortions people will go through to find “alternatives” to the DRL, and in particular a focus west of downtown when the primary need is to the east.
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I notice that all lines are scheduled to have service at multiples of 15 minutes, except one. The Stouffville line is on a 15 minute schedule to Unionville (all day), a 60 minute schedule to Mount Joy (all day), but a 20 minute schedule to Lincolnville (peak only). I wonder how that will work? Will there be a pair of trains operating 5 minutes apart in order to maintain those desirables, or will service to Unionville revert to every 20 minutes during peak periods?
The increase in peak period trains to/from Lincolnville will probably mean some reverse direction trains during the peak period since the Lincolnville yard has only 6 tracks, none can store 2 trains and there appears to be little room for expansion given the recent upgrades.
Steve: I suspect that inconsistencies like that will get ironed out once GO has a more detailed operating plan. The larger question for the Stouffville corridor is where all of those SmartTrack trains are going to fit in between the GO trips.
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More likely it is the lack of trained engineers. You have to have two years experience on a railway before you can be certified as an Engineer. This will be a major problem on all the lines.
The CP line will be a major problem because CP will not allow much more in the way of train service unless Metrolinx is willing to do MAJOR track improvements, probably at least one extra track from the West Toronto Diamond out to Cambridge. Even then I doubt that they would allow 15 minute two way service. There is a backdoor to Cambridge using the Fergus Spur from Guelph and the Kitchener line.
More Musings about Mark’s Magical Mystery Tours:
Let’s do a little analysis about the ability of the Richmond hill line to provide “measurable eastern relief.”
1) Its maximum capacity at a 15 minute headway is 8,000 pphpd. Most of which will be taken up by passengers from the North by the time it gets to the Castle Frank Inclined Plain Railway and GO subway interchange station.
2) It only runs every 15 minutes; who will want to wait that long for a “fast scenic trip into the downtown.
3) Which direction would see the greater interchange at Castle Frank in the morning, GO to TTC or TTC to GO? The more useful direction would probably be GO to TTC for those who worked at mid town. This would really provide relief to an over crowded subway.
You forgot an inclinator to serve Flemingdon and Thorncliffe Parks. I can really see how an LRT line on Hurontario is going to reduce traffic on the Bloor and Spadina subways. This will be an easily measurable benefit. I won’t even need to take my shoes and socks off to count the relief.
Steve: Don’t forget the trebuchets at Bayview/Castle Frank Station.
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This all looks good. I hope that they make sure to include improvements to parking availability at stations and fair integration with the local transit carrier to allow people to uses the improved services.
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I believe Steve that Richmond Hill improvements are required regardless. I would like to see a drive towards 15 minutes service all day in this line as an alternative to a Yonge Extension. So while I do not see Richmond Hill service as an alternative to a DRL as far as Eglinton, I would like to see it as an alternative to a Yonge extension, which would then likely require a DRL to extend as far as Finch with the next 3 decades.
I look at the growth forecasts and am very conscious of the notion of a 9 million GTA in 30 years, and would like to see this growth focused on intensification. There are real limits to what can be added in places like Lakeshore east and west. Therefore Stouffville, Kitchener, Barrie and Richmond Hill are the next candidates, and I think it is correct to focus on the inner portions of these lines, as we should want intensification, not the more development further and further out. I would rather see more Condos in the outer 416 and inner 905, than see Guelph and Milton grow yet more sprawl. Service that is very frequent, supported with very frequent local transit is a better way to grow a city, and has nothing to do with rich or poor, liberal or conservative.
The transit plan needs to be built around the idea of supporting a city/regional plan that does not simply pave over more and more farmland and other green spaces. Very frequent service over a shorter distances is more likely to support that if tied to quality local transit. Need to move away from car to GO model, and that means more frequent GO and better local transit. This cannot reasonably extend out in every direction for a 100 km.
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If we’d use that approach for Transit City, perhaps we’d have built the 6 cheap lines first, instead of the 1 expensive one! 🙂
Steve: Er, that was the plan, and we should already be riding on at least one of the new lines.
I’ve seen no indication that they have backtracked. I don’t recall the original promise being that they’d electrify the entire length of each corridor. Did anyone really anticipate that this meant 15-minute electrified service arriving at Niagara Falls, Kitchener, or Barrie? And there’s no indication that there still aren’t plans to deal with either Milton or Richmond Hill – just not in the 5-year plan being
Still, what I want to know, is when I can catch a morning GO Train to Kitchener. I don’t want one every 15 minutes. Or even one an hour. I just want one!
Steve: As someone who has sat through a lot of public meetings, it was quite clear to me that there was never any intent to electrify every inch of every corridor lat alone run frequent service to the outer reaches of the GHTA (if Niagara Falls can even be considered to be part of our region).
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My thoughts:
1) Glad that some progress is being made.
2) A bit concerned by the lack of discussion on the Union Station capacity, Union rail corridor width, and the potential downtown rail tunnel. Will the existing Union station setup be able to handle the proposed frequencies?
3) The exclusion of Milton line from the electrification plan is regrettable (although understandable because it is the CP mainline). That service would have a great ridership potential.
4) The Richmond Hill line on its current alignment has too many problems to be very useful. I would really like Metrolinx to consider a “GO RER DRL” option instead.
I imagine a line that runs from downtown in a tunnel, taking the conventional DRL route, connects to BD subway at Pape or Donlands, then serves Thorncliffe Prk and Flemmington; but, utilizes mainline electric trains rather than TTC subway trains. That line can run in a tunnel under Don Mills Rd to just north of Lawrence, and then switch to the surface corridor of the existing Richmond Hill line. The frequency may be every 5 min or better between Union and the Don Mills / Lawrence station (tunneled section), and every 15 min north of Lawrence (surface section).
It is hard for me to say if such option is superior or inferior to the conventional DRL (that uses TTC subway trains); there are both pros and cons. But it would be nice if it was at least considered.
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Simply put the current RER strategy has a significant positive Net Present Value, where as the DRL has a significant negative Net Present Value. If people want to see a new subway downtown then they should design it to be profitable, which incidentally is very easy.
Steve: We have been very poorly served by the TTC over the decades who have downplayed the DRL’s extent and benefit. Making the line too short limits its market, and failing to count the offsetting benefits such as avoidance of future heroic upgrades to the Yonge line in NPV calculations, these both contribute to a perceived lack of worth.
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Looks like the Barrie corridor is the real winner here. Hourly service in both directions all day on the weekends next year and all day service on weekdays the year after. How can these trains go all the way to Barrie without double-tracking? Are they going to use passing tracks, or is this service going only as far as Aurora?
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Steve, congrats on the new site. Very Lovely. Secondly, glad to hear this, although this is overdue. Two questions, what are the plans Lakeshore East past Oshawa? Is the Bowmanville extension still on? And will this lessen the need for a DRL?
Steve: There are veiled references to extensions in the announcement, but nothing specific. It is very frustrating how Queen’s Park dribbles out information like this. As for the DRL, as has been pointed out by many people here including me, there are two separate markets/demands to be served. One is the regional demand that GO will handle and this will provide some offset to the subway, although with Richmond Hill being on the back burner, not as much as one might hope. The larger effect is likely to be on the Scarborough and Spadina subways whose justification, in part, depended on regional travellers who had no alternative. The other demand is closer to downtown from the Don Mills corridor and anything that might reasonably feed it as an alternative to travel via Yonge. I am waiting to see what comes out of the RER/SmartTrack/DRL demand studies later this year to see where existing and projected growth in demand will distribute itself on various network configurations (assuming that the planners actually do a reasonable job of comparing alternatives rather than only modelling their pet projects).
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If you consider Aurora and Newmarket as one community, it actually makes some sense, and is a little analogous to the Bramalea situation. 15 minute service reaches the community. Given that the Aurora and Newmarket stations are 15 minutes apart these days (by car), it ensures that the trains are not all filled up before reaching the southern part of the community.
There are some logistical advantages. Some portions of Newmarket are actually closer to Aurora GO in terms of time. Aurora GO already has the better Union bus service. Aurora GO has more land and expansion potential, and better regional access from the east until Bloomington GO opens.
Speaking of which, I thought it was interesting that this announcement did not distinguish between service increase to RH and service increase to Bloomington, which opens within the same 5 year horizon. Maybe all existing and new trains will go all the way to Bloomington, which would shift some peak demand from the Barrie to RH line.
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Finally, GO train expansion is actually going to happen. I have been saying for years that this needed to be done and was frustrated that GO train expansion was not taken seriously until Wynne become premier. It looks though like GO will use up all the funds available for transit for the next decade and almost nothing else will be built because of this.
Sooner or later I think GO is going to need to rebuild the airport spur so that it can handle the new electric trains that are used by the rest of the system. Hopefully Metrolinx will by then realize that the UP Express was a failure and they will be running a lot of empty trains around because hardly anyone wants to pay outrageous prices to go to Pearson Airport except for clueless tourists. They really need to build a line that allows trains to go through the airport from Kitchener to Toronto without turning around but this would require building underground and would cost several billion dollars. This could conceivably be used for high speed rail but I suspect that if any electric train service gets built between Toronto and Kitchener/London it will be medium speed rail (160-200km/h) due to cost.
Hopefully the Milton line will be added to this if Metrolinx can negotiate with CP (e.g. building 3 tracks of which 2 are for passenger and 1 unelectrified track for freight similar to the Kitchener line between just north of Weston and the West Toronto Diamond where former CN and CP lines run parallel). The Richmond Hill line is pretty useless because of its route through the Don Valley and probably there is no point of expanding it, it should be replaced by an extension of the Yonge subway.
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A lot of the flooding is caused because they diverted the Don into a hard right turn to the west years ago for the shipping channel. This slowed down the out flow and caused silting there. Whenever they get a heavy run off it cannot get out into the lake quickly enough. Paving roads, street runoff and house down spouts into storm sewers cause problems in a lot of areas but I think that this is one area that had its problems caused a long time before King car started its rule.
Question Steve, can trebuchets be used for down bound passengers or should we install a slide?
Steve: Passengers transferring from the subway to GO could use something like the “Chutes” at Scarborough Beach Park. There must be plans for this somewhere in the archives.
Metrolinx has not proposed electrifying any trackage that they do not own. I wonder if this is because they know the railways will balk or because it is just easier to do what you own first. The biggest problem would seem to be Lakeshore West where stopping short will cause major off peak problems.
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I am sure the CPR will sell GO whatever they want. It is just a matter of offering them enough money!
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I must clarify I never meant Richmond Hill as “the” DRL.
Even if Richmond Hill does not serve as DRL…. Consider concurrent improvements, like ECLRT, Stoufville RER (or SmartTrack), Lakeshore E/W RER (all of which at least a _few_ may decide to take one of all the above to bypass the Yonge-Bloor transfer crush, depending on their origin). Given a dozen new TTC/LRT/RER close interchanges that involved good wayfinding and indoor connection (rather than a 500 meter outdoor walk). Every opportunity possible, interchange it! All of them will only attract a few alone. Total, it would add up to a lot of spreading traffic away grim chokepoints. There are many new gridding/interchange opportunities to de-star Toronto public transit. Good transit have multiple different ways to get from point A to B, like London, New York City. With the GO RER improvements, we have a grand opportunity, to not neglect good interchanges between diverse lines. By diverting even a mere 10% away from the Yonge-Bloor chokepoint, is still useful. Even if you DO NOT call it “DRL”. Most people would agree that better interchanges are needed, even offpeak.
Let’s not dismiss the potential usefulness of a couple or three added Richmond Hill interchanges, as it would still be beneficial – one of London’s interchanges, and one of the stations in Washington Metro has an escalator as long as the one theoretically needed for Castle Frank. (over 10 storey altitude difference!). Yes, escalators long enough to get you on top of Prince Edward Viaduct, already exist in some metro stations! It is not necessarily too far. The station may require creativity to install, but it may be irresistible by, say 2050, to consider the potential, if flooding was solved. The station can underhang, overhang, cubby into a hill or underneath a road, and other creative solutions. The idea needn’t be permanently dismissed, even if it is not for DRL, but to interchange Toronto lines in all directions for easier transit from point A to B.
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For me, the only changes I can see for Guelph/Kitchener are in the rush hour, before I get up.
May I suggest that the Don Valley at Bloor station be connected by a gentle funicular or similar up Rosedale Valley Ravine to Rosedale station. We could call it Anglos’ Flight
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So, to ask the obvious question, are they taking into account the Bowmanville extension of the Lakeshore East line when they are saying that the entire corridor is to be electrified?
Steve: There is a footnote to the table detailing additional trains saying “Potential service extensions are excluded from the totals”. Also, Metrolinx and the Minister have both said that there is more info to come soon. Read into that what you will.
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To be fair to Mark Rejhon, he addressed eastern DRL needs first (before talking about the western) but people who live in the DRL east catchment area will not consider anything less than a subway even though Mark Rejhon has a perfectly good alternative to an unnecessarily expensive subway but no, we deserve a subway.
Steve: My issue with Mark’s proposal is that the Castle Frank connection is too far west (relative to the Danforth line) to be workable, and fitting a GO station into the valley (let alone the physical connection up to the subway) would be extremely difficult. Please note that I can look out my window at the site, and have a very detailed idea of what space is and is not available. Unlike some “transit planners”, I am not just drawing lines on a map.
There was a time when my preference for the DRL East was an LRT line, but it has become clear that the potential demand would exceed LRT capabilities, and much of the line will require grade separation. At that point, a shift to subway technology makes sense. It is amusing that over the years there has been a wide variation in projected DRL demand, and the numbers tend to go up in pro-DRL studies (rather like they do for pro-SSE studies).
I am perfectly willing to engage in a debate about alternatives for bringing people into downtown from the northeast based on various routes, fare structures and service designs, but I expect the same from advocates for the Scarborough Subway. Unfortunately, the SSE crowd loves to throw barbs at the subway-loving DRL advocates while failing to address the gerrymandered demand projections that “justified” their pet project. Now that RER and SmartTrack are in the mix, the SSE is flailing around looking for a demand it can serve. This sounds not unlike the position SmartTrack advocates put the DRL proponents in by saying that ST makes the DRL irrelevant. Consistency in the terms of the debate would be nice.
Just for full disclosure purposes, don’t you live to the east which you argue should get subway first?
Steve: I live on the east side of the Don Valley just north of the Viaduct. My argument for service to the east flows directly from (a) the fact that there is a heavier load on the Danforth subway that would be accentuated by any expansion of higher-capacity service within Scarborough, regardless of technology, and (b) there is already the Spadina/University line west of Yonge.
In case you have not been paying attention, “my” DRL goes north to Eglinton where it could be fed by various services to provide a direct route into downtown that bypasses Bloor-Yonge completely in a way much superior to anything that might be built in the Don Valley as a Danforth-to-downtown connector.
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The problem I have with that is that part of the Bowmanville extension involves the relocation of the Oshawa GO station to the north side of the 401. So, unless the plan has changed, either the first segment of the Bowmanville extension will have to be done for the electrification project or Metrolinx will electrify a segment of track that will be abandoned a short time after it’s done.
Steve: One of the many “little details” that show how hastily thrown together this announcement was.
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I think a substantially portion of this is the fact that there is a substantial understatement with regards to additional time imposed on the riders on the bus routes that would be better served by connecting further away from Yonge (and your pet peeve about the value of time). I think you would also really need to discuss what you mean be designing a subway to be “profitable”. If you were to include all of the rental possibilities and had the subway capture more of that value then I suspect that may be true, however, it then becomes a question of assigning revenue and value between various entities, a Crosstown DRL station would have huge value overhead and adjoining, who is assigned this value? (Classic problem with accounting within corporations that frequently leads to bad decisions with assigning costs).
I also believe that there is too little being assigned to the value of the basic form of the city we want to create. DRL enabling the avenues plan, on the eastern side of the city, greatly increases the potential to greatly decrease the per capita burden of the delivery of other services, by decreasing run lengths of roads, sewers, water lines etc. It has the possibility of re-introducing the idea of development that would be centered around mid rise housing, with lots of more local services and businesses.
Currently the basic nature of the city imposes large costs, on both residents and the city itself, by encouraging a very car oriented life style, which much of the younger generation seems eager to move away from, hence the rapid growth of the shoulders even without the required increase in transit services to support it. This is one of the reasons I believe that more transit planning needs to move into the hands of city planning and away from the TTC. As a transit agency, it will be hard not to look at what is, and to support that. However, city planning is in the business land use planning, and creating more desired outcomes, and transit is a critical tool in achieving this.
As I said before, this should also be a major consideration how far RER at high frequency is pushed, and why supporting places like Richmond Hill should be well supported.
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The problem is that this would likely be more than what would be required to buy the space for a new ROW, and to build a new set of rails. Which would mean it would perforce need to displace a large amount of other spending. I suspect it would be cheaper to rework the 401 to allow it to accommodate a higher speed LRT line and the required interchanges, at say 100 million plus per km and a very large station allowance – say a 8 or 9 billion dollar project, which I believe most would object to as a poor use of money.
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I also point out that DRL could be built before adding stations on Richmond Hill, in case it was better to do the DRL too. There are few stations on RIchmond Hill, and no stations between Union and very near the 401, which kind of make the corridor less convenient than it could be. I am not anti-DRL, after all, just wondering what the best phasing really is, given the playing field modifications brought by the new RER Plan.
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Granted, the billon-dollar flood mitigation plan, will postpone it all anyway — that billion is better spent on other things first, like either Hurontario or Hamilton LRT — but eventually when it is done and electricified, there is little reason why not adding a few stations to improve the transit network’s value.
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I am perfectly willing to engage in a debate about alternatives to the Scarborough subway but I expect the same from streetcar advocates about re-evaluating whether or not streetcars add to Toronto’s gridlock and consequently need to be replaced. I am not saying replace the streetcars or to not replace the streetcars but to study the issue thoroughly before making a decision about whether to keep the streetcar system or to discard it in favour of more versatile articulated buses.
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Richmond Hill line may not make sense to connect with Castle Frank but they are already extending it north to Gormley (opening 2016). It makes more sense to have stations on John Street and Steeles and a better connection to Sheppard subway and Eglinton crosstown (and/or DRL if DRL makes it to Eglinton). After that, it can be non-stop to Union.
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You don’t need double track to provide all day service at a fixed interval. Trains always meet at the same location which would be a passing siding station. In some respects single track creates more reliable on time performance because the trains have to run on time to run at all and forces employees and managers to be more disciplined at work. It is also cheaper then 2 or 3 tracks, lots of examples around the world.
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Electricfication will bring other benefits than just the every 15 minutes service. Since EMUs have powered axles on all wheels, acceleration would be much quicker. It can easily shave off 10 minutes or more of travel time on each line. EMUs would also make it easier to add or subtract trains from the trainset. For example, after a Blue Jays game, GO can easily add a few more trains to accommodate the surge of people leaving the game at the same time.
Given the large number of bilevel cars that GO owns, they will probably go with a locomotive hauled solution. This way, they can reuse what they have. Bombardier has the TRAXX series which would be useful to them. This has already been proven in New Jersey. For lines that are completely electrified, ALP AC locomotives would be the best. For lines that are partially electrified, they can order the ALP AC Diesel trains. This way the locomotive can select the least cost power option to propel the load without having to change locomotives. Since the ALP AC and AC Diesel locomotives have 70% parts commonality, it will reduce maintenance cost. Running two fleet of locomotives is a very costly proposition. These are not planes where standardization exist.
GO needs to start looking at their stations. Most of their stations are nothing more than a station building with a parking lot design. Passengers getting off Dixie station are greeted by a Walmart. This is hardly a good way to promote transit use. If there are shopping malls, community centers, office buildings and condos, it makes using transit much better. Pedestrians do not like to walk through parking lots or fields to get to their destinations.
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This is an excellent plan. It’s realistic, and given money, parts of it could be implemented very quickly, well before 2022. The sections being electrified and getting all-day frequent service are owned by Metrolinx or GO, grade-separated from other railways (with the exception of the Davenport Diamond on the Barrie line) and mostly double-tracked or bettter.
Unfortunately, we’ve seen excellent plans before.
I’ll believe it when I see engineering diagrams for electrification of Union Station, and start seeing money spent moving tracks and placing gantries to accomodate the electrification.
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Perhaps there will be, twice an hour, *express* trains from Lincolnville which bypass Unionville. More likely Steve is right and these plans are not quite final.
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Will Metrolinx be able to complete the Davenport Diamond grade separation in time to roll out all day and weekend services on the Barrie line? If not, how will these services affect the construction schedule? A lot of the GTS work had to be done during non-service hours.
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