At the risk of re-igniting the Scarborough subway debate, I am moving some comments that are becoming a thread in their own right out of the “Stop Spacing” article over here to keep the two conversations separated.
In response to the most recent entry in the thread, I wrote:
Steve: Probably the most annoying feature of “pro Scarborough subway” (as opposed to “pro Scarborough”) pitches is the disconnect with the travel demands within Scarborough. These are known from the every five year detailed survey of travel in the GTHA, and a point that sticks out is that many people, a sizeable minority if not a majority, of those who live in Scarborough are not commuting to downtown. Instead they are travelling within Scarborough, to York Region or to locations along the 401. Many of these trips, even internal to Scarborough, are badly served by transit. One might argue that the lower proportion of downtown trips is a chicken-and-egg situation — it is the absence of a fast route to downtown combined with the impracticality of driving that discourages travel there. That’s a fair point, but one I have often argued would be better served with the express services possible on the rail corridors were it not for the GO fare structure that penalizes inside-416 travel.
We now have three subways — one to Vaughan, one to Richmond Hill and one to Scarborough — in various stages of planning and construction in part because GO (and by extension Queen’s Park) did not recognize the benefit of providing much better service to the core from the outer 416 and near 905 at a fare that riders would consider “reasonable” relative to what they pay today. I would love to see service on the CPR line that runs diagonally through Scarborough, out through Malvern into North Pickering. This route has been fouled up in debates for years about restitution of service to Peterborough, a much grander, more expensive and less likely proposition with added layers of rivalry between federal Tory and provincial Liberal interests. Fitting something like that into the CPR is tricky enough without politicians scoring points off of each other.
The most common rejoinder I hear to proposals that GO could be a form of “subway relief” is that the service is too infrequent and too expensive. What is the capital cost of subway construction into the 905 plus the ongoing operating cost once lines open versus the cost of better service and lower fares on a much improved GO network? Nobody has ever worked this out because GO and subway advocates within the planning community work in silos, and the two options are never presented as one package.
With the RER studies, this may finally change, and thanks to the issues with the Yonge corridor, we may finally see numbers comparing the effects of improved service in all available corridors and modes serving traffic from York Region to the core. I would love to see a comparable study for Scarborough.
Meanwhile, we need to know more about “inside Scarborough” demand including to major centres such as academic sites that are not touched by the subway plan.
I will promote comments here that contribute to the conversation in a civil manner. As for the trolls (and you know who you are), don’t bother. Your “contributions” only make the Scarborough position much less palatable, and I won’t subject my readers to your drivel.
Steve Munro 
Steve, seriously are there not sensing pads that know the car is there, and in a ready state?? Should not a vehicle in a ready state coming to the signal, trigger a favorable change within 10 – 12 seconds? (With the exception of when the pedestrian crossing signal is active) How does this aspect change because it comes back into full service? Yes, I can understand that the actual signal timing etc might change, and perhaps that can wait, but signal triggering should be something that is there as a matter of course.
Yes get the timing so that the vehicles will flow better even without the trigger, or so that the trigger does not need to disrupt the regular flow too much, but transit priority triggering part needs to be active. Keeping transit moving better than any other mode is required to keep the general flow moving.
There is far too much commercial and residential development in the area, to not have the transit ride work flawlessly. To me this type of thing is an early test of whether Tory will be an angry conservative, or a managerial conservative. The latter, would be looking to get this fixed immediately as it is a critical question of getting value for money for the taxpayer, and best possible service for the rider. If he turns out to be the former type of conservative, we are in for a long 4 years, the latter, and we can expect a lot of pressure to get a lot of things fixed, and on going pressure to the point where the city traffic department will be calling you to find out if you are aware of any issues, (before the Mayor’s office finds out).
Steve: The sensing loops are not active yet, and the signals are running on a fixed cycle. There is no advancing of green time when a car is present, nor is green time extended. The claim is that the “final” version will work properly.
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Once the Scarborough subway is built, Scarborough should hold a referendum on leaving Toronto so that Downtown can pay for it’s own DRL and extremely expensive new streetcars.
Steve: I hope you look forward to the zone boundary at Victoria Park.
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Sounds like someone is in love. The fact is and as you state that you will blindly support Steve no matter what he does or does not say. Steve may be right most of the time but he is human and not God and all humans are wrong at some point or another.
Steve: The problem with acolytes is that sometime they can expect rather a lot of one. Divine powers I do not have, and the expectation can be trying. I suspect that even He has days when He wishes people would just let Him get on with His gardening, or a quiet evening in the local pub.
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Not at all, there are things that I disagree with Steve on, however, the load on the DRL, which is what I was specifically referring too, is forecast by third parties. When the forecasts for the load is 17500 by 2030, it means shortly after you can get the route built as LRT it would likely already be near maximum capacity of LRT.
Therefore, when I suggest something I know is not the right thing to do from a pure transit perspective, and I know his opinion, I know that he is likely to hit me with something I already agree with, it stings.
LRT would be better than nothing, however, why spend as much money to leave the network short. If you could build underground LRT for something on the order of 2/3 subway I would say go for it. However at something like 95% it is simply not worth building something that will only provide 1/2 the capacity.
I was being quite specific, not generic. I still disagree with Steve with regards to how the DRL and streetcars should interact, and the import of tying them together, versus specific locations of service. I think I also disagree with his opinion on where a DRL should end. I also think that a tunnel for the core, to support an LRT to the core would be worthwhile, and I suspect strongly that he would not agree.
Oh I also think I suspect that I am quite a long ways right of his general political position, but that is a moot point.
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You know, recent economic news may make it a wise idea to hold back on such definitive language. After all, the Federal conservatives would only lose one seat at worst if they were to pull their funding for the BD extension to allow them to have a surplus in the next budget.
Steve: Actually pulling this “funding” would have no effect on their budget. The feds expense capital subsidies when they are paid, not when they are announced.
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Is there some specific advantage in waiting to activate the sensing loops? Would it not make sure that the inputs are all working by having them in the program?
Also is this regular city staff, or is this outside contractors that require being paid each time they come in? I realize that city staff time is not free, but if there is trained city staff, running this as a tight experiment, and then learning how it affects flow traffic and transit would a worthy experiment. Given that there is little traffic that actually crosses south of Queens Quay, it would have less effect I suspect than say King on general traffic as a test bed.
Transit priority is an area that the city needs to start tweaking. Tory has made quite a show of the tag and tow, transit priority is another area that would make sense to help all traffic flow in the core. Especially as the streetcars also cause general traffic to miss lights as they are loading. Getting that streetcar to a point where it can load before the signal changes to red and then having a red while it loads would be huge for all road users.
If they can get it working on Queens Quay move to King, then through the core, and maybe even to Scarborough, where I am sure the buses could benefit from the idea of loading and unloading while facing a red, and getting a green when they are ready to go.
Steve: I believe that it’s a case they simply don’t want to develop two control schemes — one for the interim road layout (which is still changing from time to time) and one for the final setup. That said, I don’t understand why an interim scheme wasn’t developed given (a) the lead time available and (b) the importance of this as a showcase project. I think this is a City issue, not one for the contractor who installed the signals.
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Yes, but it would allow them to make a big deal of their fiscal responsibility. While it would have no impact on the current year, it would play into their projections for the out years, and as nobody in Canada really expected oil prices to fall this far, they have political cover for the current and next couple of years to be struggling with their fiscal situation.
Also the price collapse gives them cover to pull back from such commitments, and make points in terms of how they are being responsive to the situation. They will likely make the point that the current changes in oil price and currency values help Ontario, which they have effectively said has been fiscally reckless, while it hurts Alberta and Saskatchewan, those have provinces that have been paying the bills.
While you are correct Steve, I think that Nick L still has a point. They could come out and push the commitment, as a way of shoring up support in Toronto area (and hoping to pick up a seat or two), or just throw in the towel. I suspect that this will come down to their expectations with regards to political return, Does it make more sense politically to take that money off the table, leave it specifically pledged to the subway or move it to a general GTA fund in support of the provincial transit construction. If it were to be the last, it will make the Scarborough subway seem much more expensive from a provincial perspective, as that money will come directly out of money to support the Mississauga LRT, and RER projects as well as projects inside Toronto.
Steve: The bulk of the spending on a Scarborough Subway project will not occur for at least five years, and that’s two elections away. Any shuffling of “commitments” will be seen only as a political exercise, not a fiscal one, and certainly not something the current government will be worrying about.
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Let’s see! You would take money from all of Toronto to pay for Your Subway then leave Toronto and not pay for any improvements that would allow Your Residents to travel more easily once they cross the Iron Curtain into Toronto; sounds fair to me.
To repeat again the DRL’s main benefit is not for people who live downtown but for those who want to get downtown, including those who live in Scarborough. Those expensive street cars are the only thing that can handle the demand for surface transit downtown. They last twice as long and carry more than twice as many passengers as a bus and in the long run are cheaper to use than buses on heavy lines.
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I was making a reference to how the federal conservatives handle “unspent funds” for budgeted items.
Steve: Yes, but since no spending has actually started, there is no actual budget line in current (or probably near future) years, and hence no unspent money to be redirected.
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Could the TTC pay them to do it out of the money they would save on operating the 509 faster for a few months?
Steve: They won’t save any money. All they are doing is running the planned number of cars on a wider headway.
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Yes but they will be worried about winning the election (and only the appearances in fiscal issues). If the move to making this promised funding more flexible was perceived as favorable in ridings that they think they will be competitive in, and hurts them in ridings they believe they cannot win, well…
I agree with you in terms of the reality of the fiscal situation, but wonder about the games that will be played. I would be willing to bet this would come down to some detailed polling data that the parties will look at, and where there support can come from even within the ridings, and where people shake out on the issue.
This is not how transit should be planned or funded, but well, it was politics that secured the promise, and once into an election… This appears to be somewhat of a hot button issue, even beyond Scarborough.
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I think that Scarborough protestors should march to Scarborough Town Centre, take down and burn the Toronto flag, raise the Scarborough flag, and proclaim independence. It’s sad that we have to resort to this but we are tired of subsidising Downtown Toronto to the neglect of our own transit and other services and infrastructure.
Steve: Considering that at least one of your Councillors would like to raid local improvement charges (aka Section 37 funding) levied on downtown buildings to pay for things in other parts of the city, maybe it’s time Scarborough made up its mind whether it wants Toronto’s money or not.
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Karen and Glen said the subway replacement would only cost $500 million more than the LRT replacement so if Scarborough votes to leave, I’d suggest the rest of the city drop $500 million on the doorstep for the subway before barring the doors and putting up the fare gates at Main Street once more.
The unlucky ones who have to toil their petty lives away in Scarborough would be fortunate to have a benevolent overlord such as I making the decisions, for the people who would give them $0 in this scenario are legion.
But don’t even think about coming back and asking for cash to build skating rinks.
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A reminder that the push for transit is often mostly for satisfying the interests of the development industry rather than the transportation and planning needs of the residents of the city and surrounding areas.
On the topic of a GTA, the existing pass is poorly promoted and of use to a marginal number of transit users at this point. A GO option is not going to make it any better. Since I do not need the services of more than 2 transit agencies I am better off taking MiWay or the TTC to the border and walking the last km to my destination.
All of the 905 agencies have agreements to accept transfers from neighboring agencies. In the past this meant one had to have multiple fare media to cover the trip out and back (since they didn’t and still don’t accept tickets from other agencies) but PRESTO has made that unnecessary.
All of the 905 agencies have moved to 2 hour passes. In both cases the holdout is still the TTC and its unwillingness to move forward.
The solution is a 2 hour trip good anywhere in the GTA, not a prepaid pass. And yes, as Steve rightly points out if some of the money spent on UPEx had been directed to resolving border issues (or even covering the cost of the TTC moving to a 2 hour pass, the improvements would be far more significant.
Unfortunately Metrolinx is not having that conversation. Also unfortunately the focus seems to be on building transit for the sake of development interests and “choice” riders, not improving it for everyone.
A rising tide lifts all swan boats.
Cheers, Moaz
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By the way the City/TTC website for the Scarborough Subway Extension mentions public meetings on January 31st & February 2nd.
There is no mention of the LRT option in FAQs and there is a page entitled Why the SSE is needed.
So that’s that. It’s all over but for the grumbling and arguing over possible routes & stations.
Cheers, Moaz
Steve: To be fair to the staff who put the site together, Council has said “we want a subway” and the LRT option is no longer on the table. This consultation process is not the place for such a debate.
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Had we not already reached at least this point on the LRT option, before we had an election generated about face? Could not the very public consultation process blow up this process as well? Scarborough Transit Action has made the point out how the route bypasses Dorset Park.
I suspect that there may now be other voices heard, in terms of wanting wider transit. Has council reaffirmed its vote? It has flip flopped once, and that was without a change in council!
While I do not support a subway in Scarborough, providing a route through the priority neighborhoods would reduce the degree to which this bothers me. A serious reconsideration of bus routes, so that they did not need to bend to serve the subway would reduce that further.
To my mind this project diverts too much money to a single project. If it actually attracts justifying ridership will likely make much worse the need for the DRL. Hopefully a detailed study of origins and destinations will clarify the degree of through ridership, and further study of capacity limits will reveal the impact of this.
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The density on Eglinton Ave East is being deliberately suppressed by the city to justify an on-surface LRT. It would be awesome when within a few years of Eglinton LRT eventually opening after 10 years of construction, it is shut down for conversion to subway and if and when that happens, I hope that there is a special tax imposed on Downtowners who fought so bitterly to unbury the line in Scarborough. Also the good news is that this transit line will bring very high density to Eglinton and Bayview, Eglinton and Mount Pleasant, and Eglinton and Laird and I hope to see these changed beyond recognition.
Steve: The projected demand on Eglinton is no where near the level that would require a subway. Don Mills and Eglinton is a major node not just because of the LRT line but because of the possible future northern extension of the DRL. As for station locations further west, the intersection at Mt. Pleasant is already fairly well developed. At Bayview, Sunnybrook Plaza (the first strip mall in Toronto) is ripe for redevelopment, and who knows what will happen, long term, on the Metro store site. Laird may see some development too. But all in all, the extra demand this would represent would still leave the line well below the capabilities of LRT.
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But do you agree to impose a special tax on areas in and close to Downtown (i.e. those who opposed the subway) to pay to convert the Eglinton LRT to subway if and when it is required? You should readily agree for you expect it to never happen.
Steve: You assume that only people close to downtown “oppose” an Eglinton subway. As for special taxes, I am already paying for Scarborough’s subway.
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@Hans Frank: I would worry much less about the capacity of the LRT, and a lot more about where the riders from that LRT are currently headed. If we were to make the argument, that the LRT would never be expanded to permit 4 cars, and was never short turned to increase capacity, but only had a signal scheme set up to allow trains every 2 minutes, where would the very comfortably accommodated 13,500 riders per hour go?
I too read this article, it failed to deal with the basic question of where these riders would be bound. Also I noted the comment
The real question is how they will get to their final destination without overloading transit. It will require a lot of development before the LRT is overloaded, but not all that much ridership being directed to Yonge before that is a huge issue. However, add the mentioned Downtown Relief Line, and well I am most comfortable with regards to development for a very long time. However I am not all that comfortable, that all will realize that transit growth is on the verge of overwhelming the Yonge subway.
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The about face was well before the height of the election campaign, but I would not discount its effect. As Steve said, “Council has said ‘we want a subway’ and the LRT option is no longer on the table.” That means that they are focusing on what should be built and how much it will cost. It does not mean that final budget approvals are in place, even though they have approved the addition to property taxes based on early cost assumptions.
It has been said that the tax increase may fall short of what the city will have to cough up, even based on early cost assumptions. When the consultation process comes back with a better idea of what the cost will actually be, that could be a significant driving force to reconsider the LRT option once again. Finding out that the Scarborough Subway levy needs to be doubled or tripled might shift public opinion.
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I am well aware of who has what as I work all over this great City & I would advocate for BRT’s and LRT’s for the perimeter of Etobicoke any-day. But if you look at that same map you’ll see the subway stop in the heart of Etobicoke.
You can only mask inequality for so long. Extend the BD line into Scarborough & then lets talk about BRT/LRT funding on a more even playing field.
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Joe M: Please explain to me what all this great money does for Scarborough? We help maintain and upgrade all the streetcars & subways. The rest of the city upgrades our packed buses?
Sure is great to be amalgamated & have other areas who know very little about Scarborough’s needs make decisions for us.
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The fact as you have previously noted you and your neighbours use the subway to get to the core, means those are no longer really “downtown’s” subways just subways that pass through downtown. Also you need to look at the notion, that the operating costs for transit are largely based on salaries, which means the many buses operating in Scarborough, are likely as costly to operate as the Streetcars downtown, generating similar revenue. Many of those streetcar rides are streetcar only and on the King car only, even if that was only 2 dollars per fare (allowing for Metropass, student fares etc), that is over 100k per day. I suspect it does not require any more subsidy to operate per rider than most Scarborough routes, especially once the impact of riding multiple routes (fare splitting/assignment) is factored in. These streetcars may be expensive, but the current ones have been around for a couple of bus replacements.
The issue of distant councillors making decisions for Scarborough, is a similar problem for every borough. Scarborough councillors are doing the same for downtown areas like Parkdale, Riverside, Riverdale, or East York areas or Etobicoke. I am strongly of the mind that the Metro format worked better, local decision were local, regional decisions were made a metro level. However, this is not just a problem for Scarborough, and it also creates big problems of people losing the connection between the cost of something and its real value to the community.
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So apparently Joe M’s Scarborough does not include Eglinton and Kennedy or St. Clair and Warden. Please enlighten us: just exactly where is the boundary of Scarborough? And why shouldn’t the more cost-effective projects be completed first, before a subway extension that costs more than $1 billion per stop?
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Indeed. The idea that the subway is now democratically chosen with finality and that it is inappropriate to continue pushing to revert to the LRT plan is utterly fraudulent. Any honest person would have to concede that the LRT plan was already in 2010 established beyond the point where it made sense to overturn it (since it was further along than the subway plan is now).
Since the LRT plan is actually better, I would consider it appropriate to continue to push for re-instatement of the LRT plan until the amount remaining to spend to complete the subway plan is less than the amount remaining to spend to complete the LRT projects that were, as of December 2010, scheduled for construction.
Due to a lack of understanding in the general populace of the sunk cost fallacy, I’m aware the above is politically unrealistic: if TBMs are put in the ground for the subway extension, then it will be built. But as long as the LRT plan can still be had for less more money than is needed to complete the subway plan, reverting to LRT still makes sense, and those who understand the value and potential of LRT should continue pushing for that outcome.
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Moaz: oh I’m not criticizing City Staff. They have their job to do and councilors have their job. The weird thing is that at this point it seems as if Metrolinx is still operating on the assumption that LRT will still be built. How long will it take to formally end the LRT and decide what to do with respect to cancellation fees and the LRV order (which I’m sure Mississauga-Brampton, Hamilton and Waterloo Region would be interested in).
Oh by the way Royson James talks about the results of the Transportation Tomorrow Survey here.
Cheers, Moaz
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Joe M: Says
And those of us who are unlucky enough to rely on the TTC all complain how ridiculously aggravating it is to reach this subway. 2 packed buses or 1 packed bus and an RT ride for me to reach the subway that is nowhere close to me. Most of my neighbours actually have given up years ago on public transit out here since we are basically isolated. But we continue to pay into this Ponzi scheme..
Joe M says:
You bring up another big issue Scarborough faces. The fact some have no idea how large Scarborough is and where its borders are. Kennedy Rd & Eglington is a long way away from Morningside & Sheppard, Meadowvale & Ellesmere, etc. Personally I think its appalling that we can’t integrate a full City wide network without so much opposition from those that have decent access.
But since this is the political reality. At least if we extend the subway to Central & North Central Scarborough (hopefully Markham Rd but I don’t expect outside politicians to ever allow something to be built efficiently so likely McCowan) the majority of Scarborough citizens will have much better access to Toronto’s network & it will be much easier to somewhat easier to access the rest of Toronto for 75% of Scarborough citizens.
It’s not the perfect solution but it’s the best one for the MAJORITY in Scarborough that is all but guaranteed. LRT’s & BRT’s can one day hopefully be built around the entire City. But I’m not holding my breath & let’s be honest. On top of all the transfers the Province was never out to deliver a complete transit network. Aside for the highly opposed Scarborough RT to LRT replacement all this other LRT discussion was just bait to real in voters and hand out our tax money to their special interest consultant friends to for “expert” studies.
Until we raise taxes nothing useful will ever be built. Period. Mississauga, Hamilton, Malvern LRT, all shiny lures for the fish. The Sheppard line being cut back by McGuinty was the tip of the hat on how inefficient this LRT network would be built & how fragile these plans are. If we don’t want to build from East to West then don’t bother even dangling these alternative plans because that will never happen as planned.
Politics will never build anything efficient. But I see the slight change to where Politics is now exploiting the growing number of disenfranchised voters as a positive & could provide a glimmer of equality. To the dismay of many posters I don’t see this type of Politics changing anytime soon.
Note: Before one of you pulls out the Rob Ford card against me again. I have never yet voted for a Ford but do completely understand why he was Mayor, why Doug was oh so close & why Tory was able to get in by tip toeing on both sides of the fence.
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To me this is a big part of the failure of understanding. 1st that the fact that the RT is overloaded does not mean what some think. 2nd that downtown has good infrastructure. Yes it was good, but not when you add 1/2 the population of Scarborough to the area, without adding any significant service.
The region needs a more destination neutral system, and more capacity everywhere, including Scarborough. However, that means serving all those actual destinations well.
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Hi Steve and Joe M:-
You’re quite interesting Joe as you have stated that a subway into Scarborough would be nice.
I guess you overlooked something, for I’ll let you know that in 1968 I attended Warden Station’s opening. Now that was when I was a wee gaffer and Warden Station was well in Scarborough then. Has that changed?
As a TTC employee, I worked on the construction of a short extension, umm about a mile long, to a station called Kennedy. Since this line continued east I’m almost positive it is in Scarborough too! I think it is open and in use now. It appears to me that Scarborough has a subway.
But Scarborough coulda and shoulda had soooo much more. They could have emulated the fantastically successful LRT installations in some of North America’s world class cities. I’m thinking Calgary, Edmonton, San Diago, Sacramento, Seattle, etc. here. And because Scarborough’s Aldermen and Alderwomen so clearly opposed LRT into their fair Burg, Scarberians ended up with the ICTS RT disaster instead of a real, reliable, affordable, expandable and showcaseable transit route. That decision was on Scarborough, not the City proper. Oh by the way, isn’t that nice circular thing above Kennedy Station’s Kiss and Ride a marvelous piece of modern art? A monument to Scarborough’s political will!
What coulda and shoulda happened to improve transit out to the likes of Malvern and the zoo, got scuttled by SCARBOROUGH’s decision. Gus Harris was the only intelligent voice in those debates and votes. He was soundly overruled by the ‘wiser’ (hear a cough here) majority of Burghers. Soooo, because of ICTS cost overruns, instead of money being available for the planned rail service out to the wild north-east, (I think you mentioned you’d like to see rail transit improvements rather than buses out that way) and because the technology of ICTS proved to be absolute crap in a short time, NOTHING more happened. UNWISE decisions which led to squandering Scarborough’s resources. Sheesh Scarborough was dopey!! And some wonder why it is a laughing stock of Metro.
And then Transit City coulda and shoulda started to correct those deficiencies for the good, note not poor, people of our Eastern Suburb. But Rob Ford and insanity intervened (He’s not a Scarborian but a suburbanite nonetheless) .
It ain’t gettin’ any better for Scarborough yet. As long as ‘Subways, Subways, Subways, Subways’, remains the mindless mantra, Scarborough will continue to fester in its OWN second class decisions and the poisoned soup of automotive and Diseasel bus exhaust emissions!
Dennis Rankin
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I hate to say it, however, I do support building the LRT lines from what would be considered the outer end in. There has been far too much politics played already. Ideally I would like to see the federal and provincial governments putting the money into segregated fund, that would require all 3 levels to release. The money should be budgeted, and “spent” this year, say 4 billion from each the fed and province, into said fund. That would allow a complete LRT network (started from the foot of Morningside and work back) in Scarborough, the balance of Sheppard east in North York, the completion of Finch West, started at the airport grounds, and hopefully the balance of the Crosstown. The 3.8 billion to be spent entirely in Scarborough. The city should then be immediately looking to build BRT routes.
Once these monies are fully secure, we can give credit, but not until they are. Unfortunately, we cannot afford to give political credit, unless they are willing to cough up the dough, and then get the politics out. I worry that we are the point that transit in general has become a political game pure and simple, and I would put to you Joe, that even your precious subway, could get cancelled partway, or even after a study, and revived again just in time for the next election.
The critical issue here, is to change the politics, we need to change the funding, and how the construction is approached. If it was budget item in the current year, and expended in the current year for these governments, and transferred to a special fund, we could all believe, that at the very least the money to follow through was there, and it would not be a political play thing for the next 3 elections. The 4 billion is a big dollar item for the provincial government, but if serious well… For the federal governments this is a substantial, but doable one time commitment, even in the current year.
Steve: The Feds don’t work like that. They only pay out money as there is actual spending. That arrangement goes back to the Spadina extension where Onterio put its share of the funding in a trust account managed by the City of Toronto in order to expense otherwise surplus funds when times were good. When we are running a big deficit, no government wants to prepay expenses.
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Moaz: The majority of jobs are in the downtown and the second biggest jobs destination (half of downtowns jobs) is the Airport Corporate Centre and airport area…and that is of course far more recent.
It’s not a terrible surprise that both of the GTA’s rail networks radiate into and out of downtown. Unfortunately the stagnation of investment in the existing rail network happened in parallel to significant growth in jobs outside of Toronto as well as the recession that prevented job growth around North York City Centre and Scarborough Town Centre.
The cost of building a concentric rail network (Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard) was just so high that the only way to make it effective is to use a transit mode with lower overall capacity and better cost-benefit ratios. Hence the decision to stop the subway at Kennedy and Kipling and build LRT instead. Or if we go back further, perhaps a reason why the northern part of the GO-ALRT wasn’t built as a rail network and is now being built as a GO bus service instead.
Cheers, Moaz
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I realize both these things, however, would argue that this is fundamentally what is wrong. It allows governments to make big election promises with “don’t pay a cent” financing, that like Leon’s has big costs later when you miss a payment. I have used this financing, but made damn sure I had the money available, and set it aside so that I never incurred the massive penalty when it goes into its payment period.
It also means frequently that promised money never actually appears, and the other parties involved are fully aware of that and hence quite wary. What I am suggesting, is that we as voters, who are ultimately responsible and in charge, need to demand that our governments mend their ways. If we are feeling rich enough to make the promise, find the money. Certain financing might also reduce the degree of scope creep etc, as the party managing the construction would oppose scope creep more strongly, as it may well be 100% dollars for them. This same problem exists in every jurisdiction in the country, and I am quite certain that every provincial government would love to get this at a round table.
While by far the largest concentration of jobs is in the core area (PD1), there are too many other areas with major employment. Focusing only on subway means that we are designing transit in the outer areas, on the assumption that the majority of potential rides are bound for PD1. Once we get out to even mid Scarborough, or central Etobicoke, this is no longer true. We certainly need to increase the capacity for transit into PD1, as there is expected to be substantial employment growth there, however, if we are to begin to address the issues of traffic in eastern Scarborough or northern Etobicoke, we need to allow for districts like the airport, the jobs along Eglinton, the employment along Sheppard, the substantial areas around the 404 and DVP. Providing wider coverage does not need to take away from real service to the core, merely means being realistic about the capacities required, and building based on capacity required.
A good grid makes for a good trip to many more locations, however, lets not get goofy about that being religion either. Build based on current trips.
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Joe M says: Correct.
You bring up an interesting point. If Scarborough was ever given an opportunity to vote on a fully funded – fully expanded LRT network vs. a 3-4 stop subway & Sheppard stubline. I believe you would see a significant change in the support for LRT. Unfortunately I don’t see this happening since it would be hard to condense into a catchy 1-2 word slogan come election time.
Joe M says:
Aw yes that station in the West end that take me 1 hour & 30 minutes & 2 transfers just to get to. Thanks again, but most of us East and North East of Kennedy & Eglinton (75% of Scarborough) disagree with this narrow minded approach.
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How much of this issue, is one of subway, and how much is a question of a substantial need to improve bus service, and routings?
Let us just say we did the unthinkable, and created a service roll-out: first look at more express bus routes. Then, based on ridership, a BRT that collected from a large number of bus routes, and ran straight to the subway station? If Hydro would cooperate, could this not offer a short term solution, run BRT to Kennedy, using the Gatineau corridor for most of the way from the edge of Scarborough, and then follow the rails for the last kilometer or so?
This particular service would need to be a largely express service for those in Joe M’s position, and would be part of a greatly improved bus service for the area. This would be like the downtown express services, except to subway. There is a need to implement something to serve these trips that can be done much closer to the here and now, and then make sure we can support further improvements in the very shortly time frame. I would say the initial improvement can be done in the period it will take to do scope for subway study, a basic BRT, in the time to do the engineering for subway.
Scarborough will need a lot more than a lousy express routes or BRT in a hydro corridor to begin to serve even the PD1 bound load, but, well, these are things that with political help from the Ontario cabinet, could be done nearly now.
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Joe M, where exactly are you starting from that it takes 1h30m to get to Kennedy station? Not from Rouge Hill GO station; ttc.ca says 40 minutes with one transfer. Not from Morningside and Staines; that’s 47 minutes and no transfers. Those are the two furthers corners of Scarborough that I can think of offhand.
Of course if you’re starting from someplace that doesn’t have transit within half an hour’s walk (Standard Auto wreckers?) or you’re travelling at 3 AM, I can understand that.
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And, how long will it take to get to Kennedy Station from where he is starting if the Scarborough subway extension is built? How long if the SRT replacement is built as LRT? If it really does take 1:30 now to the subway I’m pretty sure he can’t be near any of the proposed new subway station locations. How many minutes does $1000000000 per station save?
Not to mention that the downside of the LRT to subway transfer at Kennedy is reduced by the potential presence of 3 LRT lines, one subway, one GO line, and several buses at that one station. In fact, looking at it that way, extending the subway probably adds transfers for more people than it eliminates: instead of LRT to Kennedy, then transfer to whatever, people will need bus to subway, subway to Kennedy, then transfer to whatever.
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The problem in my mind is that the debate seems to have focused heavily on the people headed to the core, and left out other trips. If transit is going to serve Scarborough reasonably well it needs to the other trips as well, especially since there are more of them, and that low level of service helps to explain the dominance of the car. Imagine if all the streetcars only went to King and Bay. There are some who would think that was great, but for people who want to live their lives using public transit as a primary means it would not work well.
My mom has essentially stopped driving (car sits at my brother’s house) and she uses subway and streetcar for virtually all her trips (lives at Yonge & St Clair). This should be a choice for as many people as possible, and spending all resources to get to King and Bay will not allow it. If it really takes Joe M. that long to get to Kennedy, there is a huge issue with the bus routes serving him. However, I ask would it not make more sense to fix the bus routes? If load is there build a BRT (can build many a BRT for the cost of a subway), if load is greater build LRT (as proposed). I would argue that once LRT are built, BRT should be looked at, to spread the ability to get to out of traffic transit further still, and supporting both more origins and destinations. The core may have the most jobs, but it is not the only destination in Toronto.
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Joe M says:
You provide sound, logical ideas which address many issues which I can support as stop gaps & some permanent solutions.
But the glaring issue of inequality in this City also needs to be addressed or will continue to cause greater political unrest out here in many parts of Scarborough as well as other neglected areas of the City.
In Scarborough we’ve had to watch the ongoing luxury development boom in Central, West & Northern CORES of the City which used access the subway as the main sales driver. Kennedy & Eglinton is not & never should be the main CORE of Scarborough.
If not a subway then there should have been a serious investment in a FULLY funded LRT & BRT network which isn’t hacked together, provides efficient routes (which the current RT doesn’t) and neglects no one in the City.
I don’t see your ideas or a fully funded Rapid transit network on the table. So I have no problem accepting the 3-4 stop subway to the core and improved bus service. Which will do much more of Scarborough as a whole than the LRT stubline & transfer network that was being pushed upon us by those the “have” adequate infrastructure.
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Why does the option of LRT have to be an all-encompassing, everything at once to every corner of Scarborough when the subway option is a few stops that are all entirely in the west half of Scarborough?
What Joe M. is not aware of is the expansion benefit of an LRT network over subway. A short extension of a subway line is very expensive, close to a third of a billion dollars per kilometre, while LRT expansion can be had in the range of $50 to $100 million per kilometre. Unlike initial costs of an LRT system, that must include maintenance and storage facilities and the entire fleet, expansion only requires a small increment in the fleet.
It is not merely the raw cost of any future expansion, but the political willingness and momentum needed to make it happen. It is far easier to get a 2 km extension through when it costs $150 million than when it costs $600 million.
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Everybody wants their “fair” share of subway lines but almost no one wants to pay the “fare” to build it or anything else. “Some other level of government should pay for it.”
We cannot build subways everywhere, especially if we are going to hold tax increases to under inflation. The only way to do that is to cut. Scarborough has it in the minds that they deserve more subway and no amount of reason will convince them otherwise. We need an honest politician to tell the people exactly what needs to be done. Unfortunately he will be defeated soundly. In the 70s I was told that if I voted for Joe Clark my wages would be frozen. Even though he lost they were still frozen.
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