At the risk of re-igniting the Scarborough subway debate, I am moving some comments that are becoming a thread in their own right out of the “Stop Spacing” article over here to keep the two conversations separated.
In response to the most recent entry in the thread, I wrote:
Steve: Probably the most annoying feature of “pro Scarborough subway” (as opposed to “pro Scarborough”) pitches is the disconnect with the travel demands within Scarborough. These are known from the every five year detailed survey of travel in the GTHA, and a point that sticks out is that many people, a sizeable minority if not a majority, of those who live in Scarborough are not commuting to downtown. Instead they are travelling within Scarborough, to York Region or to locations along the 401. Many of these trips, even internal to Scarborough, are badly served by transit. One might argue that the lower proportion of downtown trips is a chicken-and-egg situation — it is the absence of a fast route to downtown combined with the impracticality of driving that discourages travel there. That’s a fair point, but one I have often argued would be better served with the express services possible on the rail corridors were it not for the GO fare structure that penalizes inside-416 travel.
We now have three subways — one to Vaughan, one to Richmond Hill and one to Scarborough — in various stages of planning and construction in part because GO (and by extension Queen’s Park) did not recognize the benefit of providing much better service to the core from the outer 416 and near 905 at a fare that riders would consider “reasonable” relative to what they pay today. I would love to see service on the CPR line that runs diagonally through Scarborough, out through Malvern into North Pickering. This route has been fouled up in debates for years about restitution of service to Peterborough, a much grander, more expensive and less likely proposition with added layers of rivalry between federal Tory and provincial Liberal interests. Fitting something like that into the CPR is tricky enough without politicians scoring points off of each other.
The most common rejoinder I hear to proposals that GO could be a form of “subway relief” is that the service is too infrequent and too expensive. What is the capital cost of subway construction into the 905 plus the ongoing operating cost once lines open versus the cost of better service and lower fares on a much improved GO network? Nobody has ever worked this out because GO and subway advocates within the planning community work in silos, and the two options are never presented as one package.
With the RER studies, this may finally change, and thanks to the issues with the Yonge corridor, we may finally see numbers comparing the effects of improved service in all available corridors and modes serving traffic from York Region to the core. I would love to see a comparable study for Scarborough.
Meanwhile, we need to know more about “inside Scarborough” demand including to major centres such as academic sites that are not touched by the subway plan.
I will promote comments here that contribute to the conversation in a civil manner. As for the trolls (and you know who you are), don’t bother. Your “contributions” only make the Scarborough position much less palatable, and I won’t subject my readers to your drivel.
Steve Munro 
Steve: “Stop Spacing: How Close is Too Close?”
Sherbourne and Castle Frank: too close
Castle Frank and Broadview: too close
Solution: close lightly used Castle Frank station as it’s very small ridership is not worth the cost of operating and maintaining it
Broadview and Chester: too close
Chester and Pape: too close
Solution: close lightly used Chester station as it’s very small ridership is not worth the cost of operating and maintaining it.
Steve: Castle Frank station is not “lightly used” if you look at the number of people who go to and from it on the Wellesley and Parliament buses. If we are going to get rid of some superfluous stations, how about Ellesmere, Midland and McCowan? Riders can just hoof it over to STC. They will have to once the subway opens anyhow, so they might as well get used to it now). We are told so often by Scarborough subway champions that having more stops like the LRT isn’t important, so let’s make the change today!
LikeLike
I can’t tell whether Steve’s comment about closing STC stations are sarcastic or not… but I remember during the Scarborough Subway debacle last summer (between the approval of council to further study in light of conditions, and the actual go ahead at end of September’ish)… a lot of commentary coming out of how the SRT is actually used by riders.
If my memory serves me right, I believe there was some data thrown around that most SRT riders take buses to either Kennedy or STC to ride, and very very few use the stations in between… This was one reason given to move off the SRT RoW. Anyway, more a thought experiment question than anything.
And for a follow-up… What about replacing the SRT route with a BRT? OR is Smart Track using the same corridor?
Is the elevated structure in good enough condition? Seems like a way to maintain that corridors service (I believe it’s through Dorset Park – priority neighbourhood – as well), but sink very little capital to it, and could be run using existing buses…
Steve: It was sarcasm. After all, if we won’t need the stations in the future, why bother to keep them open today? By the way, the same Glenn DeBaeremaeker who says we don’t need stations once wanted the TTC to add a station at Brimley because, wait for it, it was too far to walk to STC.
Buses in the corridor, well, for starters you would have to build a new tunnel at Ellesmere. I’m not sure about the “gauge” of the buses versus the physical structure. At this point, RER/SmartTrack is in the rail corridor.
LikeLike
Actually Midland/Ellesmere should will be covered by Smartrack. So the debate about trading 7 stops for 3 could soon become even more useless.
Steve: At the point that 7 vs 3 was the debate, SmartTrack wasn’t on the table, and I would not count on all of the stations from the Mayor’s plan surviving into the final configuration.
No you weren’t told the local transit improvement (LRT) wasn’t important. You were told there is a major disconnect between the type of transit infrastructure the majority of Toronto has received vs. the vast neglect for 75% of Scarborough.
Of course we want better local transit but priority#1 is to get the heart of Scarborough on the same grid as Etobicoke, North York & Metro. BRT’s or even your LRT’s can be built around perimeter much easier down the road when hopefully theirs a fully funded plan & not political patch work stub lines and transfers.
Unless there was a guarantee they start building from East to west. I’ll gladly take a 3-4 stop subway.
LikeLike
Merry Christmas to you Steve and to all of your readers!
How about we get rid of Bessarion station and the whole Sheppard Line for that matter since the ridership of both that station and Sheppard Line in general are too low to justify even LRT let alone the subway that operates there?
Steve: In case you haven’t noticed, I am no fan of the Sheppard line myself, but we’re stuck with it. My remark, at least partly in jest, was intended to address the claim that people don’t mind fewer stations on whatever replaces the RT. Don’t forget that Glenn (subway champ) DeBaereMaeker once wanted a stop at Brimley so his constituents wouldn’t have to walk to STC.
And ask yourself why so many people in Scarborough are Scarborough subway champions? First, there is an unnecessary and very time consuming transfer at Kennedy station. Secondly, all of our stations are exposed to the weather and wind and snow and ice and about 7 years earlier there was almost an hour of delay as an old man had slipped from the platform on to the tracks at Kennedy station (thankfully he survived). Thirdly, look at our stations. You talk about closing stations like Ellesmere because of their low ridership but do you have any idea why these stations have low ridership? Look at Lawrence East and Ellesmere for example, they are deep under very high bridges and in the middle of nowhere (not on Kennedy, not on Midland but under very high bridges). Ellesmere is so badly accessible that even buses can’t access it.
Downtowners who are so desperate to build LRT in Scarborough (an LRT that they will never even use) keep assuring us that the LRT will be 100% grade separated and will have more stops than the subway and will cover a greater distance and I will be more than happy to accept 100% grade separated LRT with more stops and greater distance coverage and I will even take the cold weather exposed stations but I will NOT accept stations far from major intersections, under very high bridges, very inaccessible not just for the old and the disabled but also for the young and healthy (look at Ellesmere and Lawrence East). I am more than happy to accept 100% grade separated LRT to replace the RT with more stops and longer length than the subway that we are told that we should take but the stations MUST BE AT MAJOR INTERSECTIONS AND NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE LIKE VERY HIGH BRIDGES. If you are going to build an LRT in Scarborough with stops far removed from street level and under very high bridges, then let us build a DRL through the Don Valley (passing under the Bloor Street Viaduct). There is plenty of space in the Don Valley and sure we will need to cut tens of thousands of trees but you have no problem in advocating for widening of Eglinton and Sheppard and Finch (at the cost of cutting our precious trees) to build on surface LRT in Scarborough.
Steve: Methinks you doth protest far too much here. I am looking out my window at the Prince Edward Viaduct, and it is considerably higher than the Lawrence or Ellesmere overpasses, not to mention that there is no station on the subway particularly close by the rail corridor beside Bayview. You are making an apples-to-oranges comparison.
The people of Scarborough don’t have problem with LRT but with stations that are far from major intersections, far from street level, inaccessible by even buses, exposed to the cold and the snow and the ice, and very inconvenient and time consuming transfers. The people of Scarborough are more than happy to accept an on surface LRT on Sheppard East but only if the whole route is converted to an LRT in order to eliminate a completely unnecessary and time wasting transfer at Don Mills station. We are willing to compromise and drop all of our subway dreams but you must also be willing to compromise to and spend a little more money to make a more convenient, travel time efficient transit system in Scarborough.
Steve: Oh, you will “accept” LRT if there is a through connection at Don Mills, will you? You know perfectly well that’s not going to happen, and so this is an empty gesture. By the way, the proposed connection at Don Mills has the LRT and subway on the same level, a much simpler connection than the existing trek from the bus loop to the subway platform.
I think that a McCowan subway (i.e. NOT the SRT right of way) with less stops is a far better deal for Scarborough since as some of your readers have pointed out SmartTrack will cover the Lawrence East and Ellesmere stations. The Scarborough subway is coming whether people like it or not as that is what the people of Scarborough have asked Santa for Christmas.
Steve: As has been stated many, many times, the planned new LRT transfer at Kennedy would be much more convenient than the existing one to the RT, and it would be underground. I am quite familiar with the windswept nature of the stations from the years I worked at Scarborough City Hall. Ellesmere Station is inaccessible by buses because it was designed that way, not because it had to be. I agree it’s a terrible design. However, SmartTrack would run in the same right-of-way with exposed stations typical of GO Transit. Lawrence East is served by buses, and one can walk into the station from adjacent developments. Nobody is going to make the connection from the peak of the bridge.
LikeLike
In terms of a Downtown Relief Line, I think that expanding the PATH system along with Regional Express Rail (RER) and SmartTrack and concrete protected bike lanes and more streetcar routes can eliminate the necessity to build a very expensive DRL subway. Removing sidewalk patios, vendors, panhandlers, etc will also help improve pedestrian flow on the streets and help reduce streetcar crowding.
Also I think that the Eglinton Crosstown should be buried until at least Don Mills where it can connect with future Don Mills LRT or subway. Eglinton Crosstown has the potential to become Bloor Danforth Relief Line but only if it is 100% grade separated.
Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if any of your readers might have images of the Durham Region curb side BRT being built. I think that building it on the curbside is a mistake (median of the 2 way roadway is better) but I don’t live there and so I don’t want to impose my will on the people of Durham the way Downtowners and East Yorkers try to impose their will on us Scarborrowists.
Steve: Since you are a Scarborrowist, I will thank you to leave your attitudes to downtown and your confluence of sidewalk patios with panhandlers, an attitude that shows how little you understand the city. I am sorry that Scarborough is so bereft of walkable neighbourhoods, but they are what make downtown so attractive.
The sooner people stop arguing for “my” vs “your” transit improvements, and start thinking of “our”, the better off we will be. If you insist on demeaning downtown to justify your schemes, you will get little comfort here.
You appear to confuse the purpose of a true DRL, one that would reach north to Eglinton and potentially beyond, with a small route downtown. The whole point of any “relief” is to avoid the need for people to use the Yonge subway, and they must be intercepted further out than Pape and Danforth.
LikeLike
Steve as you say part of the issue appears that there is not an understanding of the degree to which the DRL is required to allow a realignment of transit in general, as it will have such a large impact on all routes to the core, and Toronto’s subway system is so core centric. The TTC cannot reasonably attract more traffic onto the BDL without a DRL. Building a DRL will have only the smallest and most trifling impact on streetcar riders in the core, and increasing this capacity will only really matter for the subway if there is an inclination of riders from eastern North York, and Scarborough to ride a streetcar to the core and not a subway. Even that being the case the number of routes and cars would be difficult to say the least.
The general growth of Toronto of being dependent of effective transit, the DRL is at least in my mind the essential key to transit growth in the east and north of the GTA. The Don Mills Subway is about getting riders from the Scarborough residents on the Crosstown, Thorncliffe & Flemingdon Park and riders on the BDL from Scarborough to the core.
You cannot bring more riders to Yonge or the BDL subway without this relief valve. When you are looking an immediate relief requirement the 17.5+ K range by 2031. This line is about serving the North and East of the city, not the core. It is so people can have the possibility of safely getting to the core from Scarborough, without eventually having to wait for 20-30 minutes at Yonge to transfer, or even to have room to get off a BDL train, as the platform will be full of those waiting to get to the Yonge platform to board there (and not having a dangerously overload platform on the Yonge line where people end up being pushed off the platform).
I would advocate building an underground LRT Don Mills to Core, if that was all that could get built and that would get it built. As an Ontario tax payer, I would be deeply uncomfortable, knowing that this would very quickly be taken dangerously close to capacity. The idea of subway extensions bothers me, simply because I appreciate that it cannot reasonably deliver as good a service. This will be true for Vaughan and Scarborough subway extensions.
The Don Mills Subway, is not the dream of people for their own service, but rather of those who plan for the future of transit for the entire city. Because it appears to serve no obvious coalition it has never gotten off the ground despite an evident need. That need is getting close enough that the very core bound Scarborough riders that currently attack this as a service to downtown residents, will in perhaps 4-6 years will be demanding to know why this evident need was not addressed. However, while they can still board the train at Yonge they do not see the need. Yes downtown residents want improved service, but that is not mostly in the form of subway.
This lack of will be a show stopper later and will interfere with other service. Transit City would have served these other needs, and also brought more traffic to the subway. It would have at least served those other needs. Transit City is needed to serve Scarborough to Scarborough and North York and to subway trips. The Don Mills subway (DRL) is to serve the Scarborough and North York to core trips (including those collected by Transit City). It will suddenly become priority one to Scarborough to core as opposed to something to be taken hostage. At this rate by the time it is built it will be exhibit one, in how Scarborough is being frozen out of transit in the city. However, this is likely not to happen for at least 2 election cycles.
LikeLike
Honestly Steve. Your back gets up anytime a poster who feel somewhat jaded make a comment towards what they see as in equality. I agree some comments are over the top. But it come both ways on here & is actually just as negative towards the “suburbs” as its called around here. And that you don’t ever seem to take issue with those combative views by the posters who have no real ties nor do they care about the majority of Scarborough or any other severely neglected neighborhood in the City of Toronto.
I’m the biggest fan of not fighting between areas of the City and moving forward together to fill the major holes. But it’s complete BS what is discussed on here in terms of what Scarborough needs from those who discuss Scarborough as a small Borough with only one need.
The issue with major neglect isn’t just contained Scarborough. But again those areas don’t seem to matter around here. If you ever expect everyone to even come close to working together we need to address those who are complete without before we continue to keep building for those that have. Again with all the good things the Transfer City band-aid solution would have provided it basically segregated most of Scarborough on its own system and struck a nerve with many of us. Also for many other reasons than that depending where you reside in the little Borough.
No matter how badly needed the DRL is (and I agree it is) or how overcrowded busy your beloved fancy streetcars & subways are. None of these issues could ever be priority #1, 2 or 3 to those who have to take multiple buses only to realize they are so cut off from their own City & might as well move to the 905 & take the Go train anyway. Instead of paying only to get the short end of the TTC stick.
If we continue to turn a blind eye to building a fair City, we will continue to have polarizing elections for years to come.
Steve: My reply to this comment has now been moved to the main article that begins this new thread.
LikeLike
All this whining about Scarboroughites “taking multiple buses”? How exactly is a subway extension to STC going to change that?
If being “too far” from downtown hurts you in Scarborough, why on earth did you move there? Anyone with the ability to look at a map can see that Scarborough is big and distant from anywhere. That means that transportation to somewhere else will take a long time. It’s like someone moving to Shelburne and then demanding “respect and dignity” to be able to commute into Toronto the same as someone from Etobicoke … look at a map, it ain’t happening.
As far as a “segregated” LRT system in Scarborough goes, perhaps what the myopic subway-pushers can’t quite see is that an LRT system that covers most of Scarborough would be an item of envy for those of us who hope to get LRT (but probably won’t, for a long time anyway).
Steve: To be fair, many people did not choose to move to Scarborough. They were either born there, or live there from economic necessity. Some parts of the inner 905 are closer to downtown than the northeast corner of Scarborough of the northwest corner of Etobicoke.
LikeLike
How quickly the silly squabble re-ignites. I live downtown and have no use whatsoever of the Danforth subway beyond Broadview, however far it goes. But I do realize Scarborough residents need good transit, both within the area and to Downtown. However, since my tax dollars are at stake I insist that Scarborough transit developments are part of a competent region wide plan, put together by planners with a regional view and not influenced by local squabbles. That is what Metrolinx is for, and it should find its backbone and do it, and explain it, and quickly!
So when Scarborough’s wish list is seen in context of a competent and well explained regional plan, it might not get exactly what it wants and it might not get even that as quickly as it wants!
LikeLike
As I’ve often said, since moving to Mississauga in 1995, I have constantly given thanks that my parents chose a location that is along the major transit corridor and near a transit interchange. Express buses mean I can get to 2 GO Train stations in 20 minutes, or to the subway in 30. People living in the outskirts of Toronto save money but lose a lot of time.
Cheers, Moaz
LikeLike
Steve, fundamentally, the issues with regards to the subways have to basically come down to 2 basic questions:
1. They can only carry so much, and are ridiculously expensive when empty.
2. The line is a single line that perforce cannot go everywhere, and as it goes further from core, the greater the distance between points that the line could serve become (as seen in terms of distance perpendicular to the line).
In Scarborough for instance, if we bring the line out to serve the area of the STC, the areas of north western Scarborough and north eastern Scarborough are now in effect excluded.
The one point Joe had, that I strongly agree with, is that the constructions of the LRTs needs to start at the extremities, as they must not be aborted half way, and must provide fast service. Also RER is a a real answer to large areas but needs to be frequent and a TTC fare (even useable with only a Metropass).
I would also point out that I do not believe “downtowners” are desperate to build LRT in Scarborough or a Downtown Relief Line. They really only want their own, Waterfront East and West LRTs. The fact that they are being told that they want the Don Mills subway to serve them may eventually have them campaign to block it, as it will disrupt their neighborhoods, but only serve those on the way through to the core. From a purely personal perspective, I am not sure why Steve would support this idea at all, he likely uses the subway little in the core bound am peak, and seems to have great need of the King Car. I am sure the East Bayfront LRT would do as much for his neighborhood as the DRL (which in Riverside would be not much), other than in the case of the LRT might maybe perhaps reduce the loading on the car maybe perhaps just a tiny smidge.
Steve: As a retiree, I get to lie in bed listening to the radio while everyone else is fighting through their morning commute. On occasion, my travels take me out early enough that I get to experience the AM peak, and it’s no fun on any of the routes serving my neighbourhood. That said, my interest is less in what might help “my” corner of the world, and more what will help the network as a whole. Without broadbased support, none of the transit improvements we all want to see will happen.
LikeLike
I understand that economic necessity can force people out into the distant suburbs. A subway may help them briefly until gentrification and increasing property values drive them yet further out. Also, I think that a lot of those living by economic necessity in Scarborough will get much greater value from an LRT network than a subway leading downtown. The LRT network would allow access to jobs all over the outer 416 via transit. I assume that low-income people are more likely to be working in some strip mall or light industrial area than in an office tower downtown. Likewise, they won’t be travelling downtown to shop at Whole Foods; they need to travel to shop at local strip malls and shopping malls. None of which a subway to STC would provide.
LikeLike
I’m going to preface this by saying that for most of the time I lived in Toronto, I lived in my family’s home which was located halfway between Eglinton and Lawrence, halfway between Yonge St. and Avenue Rd. I guess would’ve made me one of the derided downtown elite benefitting from an embarrassment of subways except for the fact that I moved to Hamilton a year and a bit ago and the closest thing to a subway out here is groups of retired H cars being junked in one of the scrap yards.
Based on living in that location for about 21 years, Scarborough’s fascination with subways completely baffles me. The emergency exit between Eglinton and Lawrence stations was right at the bottom of our street, however it didn’t really help anybody living in the area with their daily travels and either station was about a 25 minute walk from home. That could be cut down to 20 by walking quickly, but could easily become a half hour or more if bad weather intervened especially a heavy snowfall with uncleared roads and sidewalks. Doing the walk in bad weather or carrying lots of stuff was not fun, but the walk was reliable: I knew when I left the house, I’d be at the subway about 25 minutes later or vice versa. The 61 Nortown (pardon me, Avenue Rd. North) bus or the 97 Yonge bus were much closer to home but the service levels were pitiful and unreliable, and attempting to take a bus was a crapshoot at best. You could end up with a short trip or just as easily between waiting for the bus and the travel time have a trip that exceeded the amount of time it would’ve taken to walk.
I also have some historical data on travel times from that neighbourhood and downtown. My grandfather grew up a couple of streets away and worked at Simpson’s until he joined the air force. He’d leave his house, walk to the end of the street, catch the Yonge St. car and be at work 40 minutes later door to door. Before the subway was extended north of Eglinton, the 61 and 97 service was frequent and reliable and the combined travel time was probably close to the same 40 minutes, but when the North Yonge extension was built and subway came to the neighbourhood and the local bus service was gutted, that’s when the trip expanded to 50-55 minutes or more depending on how well the trip from home to the subway went.
For all the supposed benefit of living close to a subway line, the travel time spent just on getting between home and the subway was equal to the amount of time it took getting from the subway station to the end destination. I had several jobs in locations where this was true. Between the long travel time getting to and from the subway by using unreliable, infrequent bus service or walking it even in awful weather, I have to ask: Does Scarborough really want this?
And, that question only applies to the small portion of Scarborough that the subway extension would serve. The rest of Scarborough, the vast majority of Scarborough not served by the subway now and not going to be served by the three stop extension, wouldn’t see any difference except the local bus might end up going to a different station in the future and people would still be required to transfer. A frequent, dense network of bus/streetcar/LRT service that quickly delivers you to the subway, even if the subway’s located further away, would work better than living on a subway line where trains go flying by underground without stopping because you don’t happen to live near one of the stations and the bus service in the area is nearly useless because the TTC’s decided that dense bus service isn’t needed because there’s a subway. The Sheppard and Scarborough LRTs would cover much more of Scarborough than the three stop extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway, and place a larger number of rapid transit stops within an easy walk of far more people. The apparent willingness of so many in Scarborough to cut their noses off to spite their faces with respect to rapid transit is truly baffling.
LikeLike
@jeff – you’ll see on the Crosstown website from Keele to Laird it is buried. It’s not buried at Leslie, presumably because of the valley. And, from what I understand, Don Mills will be buried (not as deep as the other stations) for exactly that reason – a future connection. Although, Steve may be better versed in the in-and-outs of this line.
Steve, Scarborough (and North York, where I live) always struck me as “Mississauga” in terms of wide roads and residents driving everywhere. I have always thought, just like in Mississauga, that Scarborough could be well served with an entire light rail network that would get people moving and provide better transit. Politics, and the money that flows from that, aside, is that realistic or am I just dreaming?
Steve: There are two branches of the Don River, and each presents technical problems if the line were to go underground.
For the west branch, west of Leslie Station, the depth of the tunnel would require that Laird Station be much deeper so that the grade to get down below the river was still within LRT capability. For the east branch (east of the DVP), the situation is more complicated because in that valley, the bedrock is very close to the surface. This means that the TBMs now in use for Eglinton could not be used (they are not designed for hard rock mining), and this crossing would have to be built by other means. (Info source: Metrolinx, Jack Collins)
Yes, Don Mills Station will be underground with portals west and east of the intersection. The bus loop for feeder services will be on the northeast corner of the intersection.
LRT with good signal priority to avoid “double stops” nearside and farside, and with no stops at all at signals where there is no station, would certainly improve coverage as an upgrade to major bus routes. I see that at least one politician in Mississauga already suffers from Subway Envy. I await his proposal for a subway tax following Toronto’s lead, shortly followed by restless locals, torches and pitchforks.
LikeLike
Exactly — serve the trips that are there. The last couple of travel intention surveys seem to indicate that the large majority of trips from Scarborough are not core bound. The subway will not serve many of those other destinations. The LRT network, however, needs to be the entire network.
I would strongly suspect that one of the major drivers in the mind of many would be the fact that there is a long history of making many promises and fulfilling few. I would be the first to concede that if I was sitting in Scarborough and 3 different LRT projects were being proposed vs one subway, I would to some degree expect only one project to be completed. There needs to be some assurance that the entire LRT project in Scarborough will go forward, not say just Sheppard, or just Scarborough RT replacement, and not just to the STC but the entire network, including a BRT or better in Kingston road, and LRT to UTSC and all along Morningside. Joe has suggested that this “start in the East”.
Also this network needs to integrated with the entire LRT network that should stretch across the city. It also needs to integrate tightly with frequent RER and subway, to provide people like Joe access to a quick trip to the core.
Steve: Well we have Queen’s Park to thank for scaling back Transit City from its original network vision, plus the city’s foolishness in losing control of the projects by embracing 100% provincial funding.
LikeLike
Hi Steve,
I liked your comment about “our” versus “us and them” for transit.
I suspect a big reason people in Scarborough want a subway is because the TTC has always presented it as their “top quality” service while downplaying the other services. It should be presented as part of a network with all modes. For example, the streetcar from St. Clair to St. Clair West station takes about 6 minutes and I can’t see a subway giving any better service than that. If you look at a TTC map, the subway are the most obvious lines so when the people of Scarborough don’t see one going their way, they feel neglected. Key question though: does Scarborough deserve a subway or good transit?
Another reason is that they have been given false information by some elected officials and also media reports and ignorant newspaper columnists. I suspect most elected official know almost nothing about transit since they come from upper income groups so they drive everywhere as do all of their friends and family. I live near Birchmount and Sheppard where the elected officials at all levels are trying to get the Sheppard Subway to go through to STC despite the Auditor General and also an expert panel saying it was a waste of money. Obviously these people won’t talk about the existing Sheppard Subway losing money. As well they talk about how a subway will boost development which isn’t really true as there are lots of condos going up around Kennedy/Sheppard without a subway and Kennedy Station is surrounded by open fields and strip-malls. So much for that argument. I e-mail them to ask them what their reasoning is but they never reply. I suspect they might say privately though that not supporting a Sheppard subway is political suicide in this area with all the bovine-effluent the residents have been given.
If Toronto where to hire a Gridlock Czar(Tsar?), I suspect the first thing they would do is shut down the Sheppard Subway, cancel the Scarborough subway, and then buy lots of articulated buses for the short term and use them on express routes. In the medium term, I suspect they would start building new streetcar, light rail, and BRT routes all over the city plus coordinate with the province for RER. They might build a kilometer of subway each year for long-term growth but that would be it.
I’ve seen a few stories about the Scarborough subway today on the Toronto Sun website so the issue must be heating up.
I wonder if a referendum might be the only way to solve all the political gridlock. For example, question 1: “do you support a subway-based transit system or a mixed system (street cars, LRT, BRT)?” Question 2: “do you support using the following list of revenue tools and if so, how much in dollars…”
LikeLike
The part that I find particularly frustrating about this, is that the city and province are prepared to find billions to fund 2 projects that run closely parallel (yes 2km is quite a distance, but that is also the spacing of stops for the subway), and will not offer much in the way of access. I understand the idea of RER, and it makes sense, however, this is a regional project.
Thus, from what I understand, LRT projects in their totality for Scarborough would cost less than the subway extension, do much more for local transit and providing improved access to RER and subway for core bound for a larger group of residents, and also support more in the way of priority neighborhoods. Also the LRT to RER would provide better access to the core, while slightly reducing the load at Yonge/Bloor and is required from a regional basis anyway.
If this is the case would it not make more sense to provide higher levels of local transit, and connection to region wide transit through RER and subway, instead of building subway extension? Would not the subway extension result in massive increases in TTC operating costs and worse service, whereas the LRT would likely be very nearly cost neutral and provide a large improvement in service. Has something changed that all this is no longer the case? So are not the province and city in effect getting ready to spend more money now, and wasting more money later, in order to avoid doing the best thing by their residents? I hope the voters can see through this, and start to apply pressure for improved services, not just ask for subway for subways sake.
It is in the interest of the entire city to see Scarborough and Rexdale be properly connected, with real transit close to many more residents, and this is also true for the shoulder areas. That means good service that is accessible to the destination they want to go to, not just the core, and not as a political end in itself. Scarborough needs and deserves good service, not a bone or political bauble to make it feel included, but quality transit that actually includes as many of its residents as reasonably possible.
LikeLike
As a preface to my comments about Scarborough transit, I would like to highlight what transit Scarborough has right now. That way you can agree or disagree with me as to the real problems with Scarborough Transit:
Buses: Frequent transit on most arterial roads (15 min or better before 10pm during weekdays) with a scattering of buses that run less than that (20 Cliffside, 113 Danforth, 132 Milner etc.)
Rockets on Finch, Sheppard and Eglinton-Morningside, Express on Steeles, Kennedy-STC, Lawrence East, Ellesmere and Kingston Rd.
Rail: RT, Bloor Danforth to Kennedy, Stouffville line during peak periods and Lakeshore East every 30 min off peak.
While Scarborough transit can seem to be inadequate, it is only the peak periods where the congestion is at its worst, like many other areas of the city. Otherwise, buses come frequently enough that missing a bus is not the end of the world. The bus grid is frequent and Scarborough residents who use transit are served well compared to other major cities which don’t even have a bus grid (such as Houston). What is driving up costs and travel times in Scarborough is the lack of transferrability between transit systems. The subway is enticing for people in Scarborough as there are few transfer penalties as compared to the GO lines. Reduce or remove the penalties and people will use it more in Scarborough as well as the rest of Toronto (it is ridiculous to have GO parking within Toronto as most of the stations are located at frequent bus lines).
As I have advocated before, the best solution in the short term is to add a premium fare to the Metropass such that Metropass users can get on the GO in the peak periods (Simply done by having a fare agreement, which should have been done before Presto goes online for the entirety of the TTC). There is no point to increasing GO trains to RER frequencies if the cost is so prohibitive that it becomes a transfer barrier. Time is money but not $225 extra on top of the Metropass for the people in Scarborough. Put the premium fare to good use, and I guarantee that operation costs will drop significantly due to not needing to run express services to subway stations during the peak periods. GO gets more revenue to run more frequent services than the ghastly 30 min intervals during the peak periods.
P.S. As for where to put the LRTs, one road is already deserving but is always ignored for LRTs: Finch East. Local and Rocket services run at 6 min intervals or better throughout the day, yet the TTC does not consider converting this route to LRTs. Are they waiting for Finch East to run at 30 second intervals combined and choke the entire road before LRTs are considered?
Steve: When Transit City was being designed, a big problem with Finch was that the portion in North York (East of Yonge to the Don River) remains a low density, comparatively narrow road. This is a leftover from the Lastman era in North York when he protected this single family district from redevelopment through restrictive zoning. Proposing an LRT line with the necessary road widening through that section was a political challenge that was too much to take on. If we ever get back to looking at LRT, or even BRT, Finch East is an obvious location, but it will be constrained if it has to feed into the Yonge subway by road capacity.
LikeLike
If you’re referring to Carolyn Parrish, her subway comments were shut down politely but firmly in council. Whether she chooses to bring them up again is another story of course.
Parrish represents Ward 5 which is the largest ward in Mississauga. It stretches from Hurontario St to the border with Toronto and from Eglinton Avenue up to the border with Brampton (the 407). It has Malton GO station at the extreme northeast, the under construction transit way to the south, the future Hurontario LRT to the west, and future bus ways on 407 & 427 covering the north and east. The main roads in the ward (N-S Dixie and E-W Derry Roads) will likely see MiExpress service in the next 2 years.
So if anything Ward 5 does not need a subway. It needs 2-way all-day GO service and a good connection to the crosstown.
But overall it makes a good point … too many people in Scarborough and Mississauga (the S & M crowd according to one long standing radio morning show host) suffer from subway envy when they should realize that they need a reliable network instead.
On that note … I won’t call it a reliable option but the east is already taking so much punishment what is a little more?
So this: remember back when Ottawa planned to replace the O-Train with a north-south LRT line and there was talk about buying the DMUs and using them on the Stouffville corridor? Well, Ottawa recently bought a new batch of DMUs and it looks like the old ones might be declared surplus soon.
Now, these DMUs aren’t in the best of shape, but I wonder if it is possible for Metrolinx to buy them at a pittance, slap a TTC logo on them and run them up and down from Kennedy to Milliken on behalf of the TTC (and for a TTC fare) while the double tracking of the Stouffville corridor is completed … at least hoping that they will last that long.
Yes the corridor is single tracked so at least 1-2 bypass tracks would need to be built and there are freight trains that rarely run on the line but they could be accommodated.
TTC would get the service, Metrolinx would get the PR, Ottawa would get their trains sold and Scarborough would double their km of light rail (of course it wouldn’t be called that) while other decisions about upgrading transit infrastructure are made.
Cheers, Moaz
Steve: I am not sure that a few second-hand DMUs toodling up and down the Uxbridge sub will make much of a difference to Scarborough. And the transfer at Kennedy is at least as tedious as the one to the RT.
As for Carolyn Parrish, I thought that there were more than her calling for a subway during the election campaign, but she was the only one elected, and that on the basis of her general reputation, not that issue.
LikeLike
One clarification – MetroLinx had proposed to extend the Crosstown tunnel beyond Brentcliffe east to Don Mills. This meant that a station at Leslie would be deep underground and cost an estimated at $85 million. So they proposed to have no station at Leslie as no one lives within an easy walk and the corner is mostly park land. They also offered to build scenic walking paths to Don Mills. When presented at public meetings, there were some vocal opponents, including residents of condos on Leslie and Leaside ratepayer associations. Since MetroLinx feared that the whole project would be up for destruction by Ford and his friends at Council, they went back to the current plan, which has drastically slowed every bus on Eglinton in the area and will create a station at Leslie that will serve a car dealer and not much else.
Steve: The mess on Eglinton is due to the location of the tunnel launch site, something that otherwise would have been east of Don Mills Road fouling up the approach to the DVP. As for Leslie Station, spending millions on an underground station to serve the car dealership would be quite ridiculous. If underground, then no station at all.
LikeLike
Some points in favor of Scarborough Subway:
1) The subway will run 1-2 km east of the proposed SmartTrack line, while the LRT line (alternative to the subway) would run much closer, literally in the same corridor from Eglinton to just north of Ellesmere.
2) The subway will serve the Scarborough General hospital, while none of the proposed LRT or BRT lines touch that location.
3) The subway does not preclude the construction of other transit lines with a more local function, such as Sheppard LRT, Kingston Rd – Morningside LRT, or Ellesmere BRT. The funding allocated for the subway has not been taken from either of those routes.
One definite disadvantage of the subway plan is the loss of rail connection to Centennial College. Hopefully, this can be addressed by building a light rail connection between STC and the Centennial Progress campus. Such connection may be a branch of the Sheppard LRT (Don Mills Stn – Sheppard – Midland – Progress – STC – Centennial). Or, it could be a part of Malvern Centre LRT.
LikeLike
Thank you Steve.
Joe M said: It’s not even debatable in my 15 year experience riding TTC from East Scarborough — the main reason Scarborough citizens only travel locally is because it’s too hard to get anywhere else and we are BOXED in using TORONTO public transit. We have been almost cut off from going downtown by TTC. Adding transfers does NOTHING for us. We have enough of those.
The idea that segregation is what Scarborough want because this local travel pattern study is used to support a small minded narrative is concerning to me. Furthermore we need more than just improved local transit.
A central hub on the same main artery infrastructure platform that citizens from all corners of Scarborough could use not only to connect to the City core just as Etobicoke & North York has would be FAIR, but it would also be the new heart of the area for us and other Toronto Citizens from the other areas to get to much easier.
Whether you agree with Etobicoke & North York having subway infrastructure or not is not the argument because they now do & yet the largest Borough of Toronto has been treated as if 3/4 of the area does not exist on the transit map yet still are forced pay the same taxes to support all others.
Reading through comments where posters “suggest” or “guess” why someone from Scarborough wants the subway just shows that they have no idea. All the facts and figures for ridership would render useless 50-100 years from now as not only would we have a more cohesive City the areas population would increase at a greater pace and demand would not be an issue.
Transit is built on politics & that won’t change anytime soon. We can either start to receive support from those that “have” in the City, or we can continue to watch the political divide increase and see how well that works.
LikeLike
Agreed. It became another joke. Most out here would have supported a fully funded & connected LRT network instead of short LRT stubs leaving out massive areas of the City & in the case of Sheppard where you have a scale down LRT stub which dead end connect to a subway stub in North York. But this is politics & Scarborough is well aware what direction on the compass loses when things start to get scaled back.
Also a big misconception here in other comments is the belief that the fully funded Transit City covered Scarborough effectively. Or even worse the the comment that replacing the RT with and LRT on the same inefficient path is really all Scarborough needs.
LikeLike
Steve of course the other major constraint that I would be deeply concerned about, is that while this is a very busy route, I would be concerned that if it saw a notable increase in ridership that this kind of service improvement might induce, the increase in load at the North End of Yonge would be an issue. I cannot help but wonder if this would create much more loading on Yonge than an LRT in Sheppard will.
One of the core issues here really is where it makes sense to build such a hub. In effect, currently from a transit perspective there is sort of a dual hub, one at the STC and one at Kennedy. The issue of transfers is being looked at from the perspective that they are perforce very difficult and time consuming. A bus to bus transfer with both routes having unreliable schedules and a 10 min headway is certainly a pain. Similarly the current RT transfer at Kennedy is poorly designed, and the headways too long is also a pain. I am not sure what hub you are referring to in Etobicoke, the bulk of that area is well North of the subway, and not well connected at all, and face long bus trips to Kipling and Islington, Etobicoke Civic Centre is about 3.4 km off the subway now.
A trip that was a short bus ride to LRT at 2-3 minute headway to subway at 2-3 headway minute to subway at 2-3 minute headway would not be onerous. However, make the transfer involve multiple levels, 5+ minute waits, waits for multiple trains to go by, etc suddenly this becomes a massive issue. I would be more concerned about the transfer at Yonge, riding in on an LRT that had good transfers, than getting to the BDL subway, in terms of connecting Scarborough to the employment centres. If nothing is done shortly in terms of the overload, I fully expect to see massive overload at St Georges, and eventually even Spadina (get on before overload at St Georges) , as people start to select their transfer point to place themselves to be able to board a train. Joe has a point given the current painfully poor conditions that are created by a poorly designed transfer to an heavily overloaded RT system. However, as long as all are prepared to build a proper transfer, and keep capacity available and headways short. Start with small trains, that exceed capacity requirements but sustain a 2 minute headway, and when they are approaching capacity add cars.
I would put to you the money clearly would affect the source of other funds for other projects. Also, and more materially perhaps is that an underloaded subway will consume operating dollars that clearly are limited. Cost constraint in terms of construction and operations is a basic reality. The province has a debt that should be deep concern to us, and the political reality is that cuts are extremely hard. Spending to have all solutions is simply not realistic. This is especially so, when if these project succeed at all, it will mean additional spending elsewhere is required to sustain them, notably increased capacity to core to transfer additional load generated on the Crosstown and BDL.
Also, in terms of whether a fully funded complete “Transit City” plan, requires the inclusion of the full Bus plan, and real transit priority (ie one that allows the vehicle to move nearly immediately upon completion of loading, and almost never stop except for loading) is also something the city needs to make a real focus for in median ROWs to make a complete TransitCity cover Scarborough (or Etobicoke for that matter). The BRT and Morningside Hook are both required.
The slow destruction of these projects, along with the failure to really create a proper signal priority system for the city go a long ways in my mind to understanding why Joe M. and others will not settle for anything but subway. It is a single project, and as such is seen to be indivisible, ie it is built yes / no, unlike what has been going on with LRT, where it is possible to imagine 50-70% being built and the province “saying OK were done”.
LikeLike
P.S. The destruction of these projects (full TransitCity), is made all the worse, when they would have been better alternatives, and the funding so removed, then needs to be more than matched with additional funding for projects that will sate the political requirement. If the province had simply chosen to ignore RoFo, it could have much of this work complete, and the actual impact would be clear.
LikeLike
I like Scott R’s comment about a Scarborough transit referendum. I have no problem spending my additional property tax dollars (or any revenue tool) to help boost the order of RT service to any part of the city. While I know this isn’t going to go anywhere politically, I wonder about the thought exercise..
Imagine a referendum with… Scarborough, you are going to have 3 levels of government spend $4B dollars (approx dollars for Shep E + Subway Ext.) to give you better TTC service. You have 2 options.
1) Map of today’s BD subway extension plan (3-4 stops to Shepp), and the Shep E LRT line.
2) an equivalent map of an LRT network that could be built for $3B instead of the subway extension, and leaving the $1B (ish) in place for Shep E. Probably could add on the Malvern extension, and maybe Kingston Rd/Xtown extensions too?
I bet you option 2 wins hands-down on the basis of coverage.
Never going to happen, and the subway is not my choice, but I do think that Scarb LRT supporters need to move on and accept the reality (even if ST is only 1-2 km away). Otherwise we are no better than the pols that rip up plans every 4 years. 2 wrongs (or is it 4 or 5 in this case), don’t make a right. My hope is that the ripping of plans spiral stops.
LikeLike
While I agree with you in principle, the ripping up here is so recent that there has yet to be an EA, and the formal agreement still is the LRT. Also as you note in your presentation from Nov 7th, the subway nominal subway route goes around the high priority neighborhoods, and other areas of employment concentration. Basically I have a hard time accepting that it has really changed when the formal process is barely underway, and the plan of record was at least very recently still the LRT.
Having said that, my position on this will morph especially if the subway routing is changed to be more effective in the EA, planning is done, so that this plan will not result in stranding many more riders away from rapid transit, and something is done so that the transfer issues at Yonge that will be made worse by this are addressed.
However, I do care that my tax dollars be spent in a sustainable way, and this must mean on services that are at least moderately cost effective, this generally means built to be at least realistic to load (ie not another Sheppard or Vaughan subway debacle). Having said that, yes, part of the issue here, and one of the reasons I understand the desire for subway, is a very bad habit of doing things halfway.
LikeLike
For the most part, LRT supporters have moved on to what to do with the elevated portion of the RT once the RT closes.
Amusingly though, politicians are starting to show signs of buyer’s remorse over the BD Scarborough extension if the lack of effort on the negotiations regarding a new master agreement compared to the effort getting SmartTrack off the ground is any indication.
LikeLike
Steve said months ago that all of the Yonge-University-Spadina line has been converted to the new trains but guess what I saw this morning? An ugly old train which made my morning commute hell. I don’t trust what Steve says anymore.
Steve: I am not responsible for the TTC’s inability to keep its fleets separate. I am sorry that you were so stressed out by the experience of riding an older train on YUS that you felt compelled to write this post which, btw, has nothing to do with the topic.
LikeLike
I don’t know what your problem is: the T1s have doors that open and close sooner than the TRs.
LikeLike
I was working on a portfolio project regarding Scarborough, which is now of lesser relevance since Tory’s win. However one thing I noticed was about how piss poor the planning in Scarborough is. Not just your ordinary piss poor suburban planning, but it was set up in a way to ensure transit would be difficult to implement.
First, the plans and construction for a downtown Scarborough were put forth AFTER the subway made its way beyond Victoria Park. Imagine if Scarborough Town Centre was a mixed use and high density neighbourhood located at Warden and St. Clair, rather than a Le Corbusier inspired mall located at a highway interchange.
Even if we attribute what turned out to the planning styles of the time, the destiny of the Scarborough RT is far less forgivable. How come these stations are surrounded by industrial and parking lots, and not transit oriented development? If they had done this, then perhaps the push to retrofit over the subway would be more successful as it would have more going for it than being the cheapest option.
Steve: When the subway came to Kennedy, Scarborough deliberately downzoned Kennedy/Eglinton so that development there would not compete with their precious Towne Centre.
LikeLike
What Does Scarborough Transit Need?
1) 100% underground Eglinton LRT (i.e. bury the Scarborough portion)
2) extension of Bloor Danforth Subway to Malvern via McCowan and Sheppard
3) extension of Sheppard subway to McCowan
4) 100% grade separated Scarborough LRT to replace the RT (ONLY after number 2 above has been completed)
5) 2 way all day Regional Express Rail / SmartTrack
6) York Mills / Ellesmere subway to UTSC via Centennial College (Morningside/Ellesmere)
Steve: And a pony, preferably with mining experience.
LikeLike
Soooo, it appears from the last articles I read that Tory’s Metrolinx is promoting electrification of Kitchener & Stouffville lines as the first “RER” route.
Great, both should be done, but, come on, how about Lakeshore?!? 3.5 times as many current passengers? Already has a completed electrification study? Already owned by Metrolinx from Oshawa to just short of Aldershot? Stations spaced closer together, so electric acceleration is more valuable?
Do the more northerly suburbs just shout louder than the lakeshore suburbs?
Steve: It is the perceived value in votes in Liberal southwestern Ontario. North of Toronto, they vote Tory.
LikeLike
Regarding the capital costs, I respectfully disagree. I used to think that there is a stable portion of public funds that the public is willing to spend on transit. But after watching the transit debates for a few years, it became obvious to me that more popular projects are much easier to fund, while less popular projects get delayed, sometimes even after the funding has been announced.
In practical terms, if the Scarborough subway plan was reverted back to LRT, it is much more likely that the property tax surcharge will simply get cancelled, rather than redirected to other LRT lines in Scarborough.
On the operational side, you are probably right; the subway option will have higher operating costs than the LRT option, since underground stations are expensive to maintain. However, it should be noted that almost every transit improvement project currently on the table will require more in operating costs than it will bring in revenues. Better bus service, especially off-peak, will cost money. Finch and Sheppard LRT lines will have good ridership numbers in the central sections, but light usage at the extremities, while drivers still work for the same hourly rate. SmartTrack for the TC fare will certainly require a subsidy.
Then, it becomes a judgement call about which improvement is more useful. You might feel that the subway extension is an unnecessary luxury, while better off-peak bus service is a necessity since the riders have no alternatives. But quite a few other transit users will have it one way around.
Steve: They may want it the other way around, until they find that their bus connection home from the subway runs, irregularly, on a 20 minute headway.
LikeLike
I can imagine a branch of Sheppard East LRT running there. It would directly connect the Don Mills Stn, Scarborough Centre, and Centennial College.
I can even imagine such branch going further east and connecting to UofT Scarborough; although this may be challenging due to the Highland Creek ravine.
LikeLike
It seems the problem in Scarborough is that transit planners from 4 to 8 years ago misjudged the public’s disdain for a transfer at Kennedy, and to a lesser extent the dislike for a lengthy closure of the SRT corridor. When Transit City was killed, the replacement was the Eglinton-Scarborough line. Other than cost, there was little opposition to this – signifying that the Kennedy transfer was the main issue. It also showed that keeping the outdoor stations along SRT was not a big concern.
The main advantage of City politics vs. Party politics was supposed to be that City politics promotes compromise. However, there appears to have been no attempts at compromise. When underground Eglinton was deemed too expensive – did anyone suggest elevation? This is between in-median and underground for cost and also satisfies the need for high capacity rapid transit. We are left to wonder whether a continuous SRT-ECLRT line would have been the best option. After all, Metrolinx found it to be the best option in June 2012 when fully underground.
Other areas could be offered a similar compromise. Finch West would never warrant a subway, but the precedent would be set that elevated transit is the mode to be used when ridership levels do not meet subway, but distances are large enough that speed and reliability of grade-separation is desired. Now it seems people have dug in their heels even deeper and refuse to consider anything but the original LRT or subway.
Steve: You have been plugging elevated transit in every post you write here and elsewhere. An elevated along Eglinton was considered many, many years ago as part of the maglev train concept, until it was recognized that in the central part of the route, the el would cover the street taking into account tracks, platforms and access routes to the surface. A lovely slender elevated in the middle of a wide street with boulevards might be acceptable (but don’t bet on it), but not on an old narrow street like Eglinton.
Bombardier would love to have Eglinton/SRT built as one “upgrade” to the SRT without even having a comparative technology evaluation, but that proposal didn’t fly, so to speak.
LikeLike
As I recall, the key issue around the Eglinton LRT through the West Don River was deception on Metrolinx’s part. When the plan was first floated to continue underground to Don Mills, the reason given was that a portal on the hillside east of Brentcliffe was not possible. When some wanted the Leslie stop re-instated, Metrolinx reverted to the EA route – which included a hillside portal. This portal could have just as easily be located 7.5 m south of its present location to create a south side alignment. Along with a $10M bridge over the West Don, this would have create a fully grade-separated line to Don Mills – and no matter what work would be required here, it would not be on the critical path and affect the overall opening of the line.
Now without a grade-separated Eglinton line, we are left to wonder if the DRL will ever be built to Eglinton – or even built at all.
Steve: Your argument for a grade separated line extends all the way to Kennedy, and indeed it is the issue of a faster trip from Kennedy to Don Mills via Eglinton that you argue would make the DRL more attractive. The surface operation from Brentcliffe to Don Mills (a) is not part of the section you normally cite, and (b) will operate at quite a good clip given that there is only the stop at Leslie from Laird Station eastward. Unlike the buses, the LRT won’t get stuck in traffic from Laird to, at times, the bottom of the hill west of Leslie.
LikeLike
1. Extend the BDL Subway (preferable to Markham/Sheppard but that makes too much sense to happen)
2. Connect the LRT from Kennedy/Eglinton & loop it up Kingston rd/Morningside to Sheppard
3. Build the BRT from STC Ellesmere past UTSC & into Durham
4. Old RT route could be a bike path or be a future streetcar route one day through the core to Centennial College.
Done. That is what Scarborough needs & anything less would be shame.
Efficient local transit & easy access to Metro Toronto & Durham region.
LikeLike
To “Steve Lied”: The T1 trains remaining on the Yonge line are, I read elsewhere, fitted with glycol dispensers which to date TR sets have not been. Given we are experiencing winter weather, we may have to put up with the odd T1 set here and there until this is accomplished.
LikeLike
Moaz: I’m curious about this because if you look at the area around Islington Station (subway, nearby railway, high density neighbourhoods and main road with limited retail) it isn’t exactly designed as a neighbourhood that is pedestrian friendly or enjoyable. Most of that may be because of the office complex on the northeast corner of Bloor and Islington and the bus loop and commuter parking on the northwest.
Who’s to say if, 40-plus years after being built, Warden would have been any different from Islington.
Moaz: And if the subway gets to Scarborough Town Centre one wonders if Toronto City Planning will upzone the area around Kennedy … or will they be afraid it will compete with the McCowan Precinct?
Moaz: Don’t forget the dismay of the percentage of riders who will (horror of horrors) be turned out of their train at Kennedy.
Cheers, Moaz
LikeLike