Today a Ministerial Advisory Committee headed by former Ontario PC leader John Tory released its analysis and recommendations for the future of Ontario Place.
For those readers who are not familiar with Toronto, Ontario Place is a park opened in 1971 with then-futuristic architecture on the shore of Lake Ontario west of downtown Toronto and immediately south of the Canadian National Exhibition grounds (now known as Exhibition Place). Over the years, its attractiveness faded and much of the site was recently closed pending a review of its future.
Access to the site has always been a problem because the transit loops are at the north side of Exhibition Place over 600m from the entrance bridge to Ontario Place, provided that events within Exhibition Place itself do not block off a straight route south. The recent Indy car races and the annual CNE itself are two good examples.
Forty years ago, the Ontario Government toyed with a magnetic levitation train under development by Krauss Maffei. A trial installation of a one-way loop around the grounds was proposed, but all that was ever built was a few foundation slabs and pylons for the elevated guideway. This project ran out of steam when the German government, a partner with KM, withdrew its funding. Technical problems also arose, and a simplified version of the technology appeared roughly a decade later as the Scarborough RT replacing the originally proposed LRT line in that corridor.
Many years later, the Waterfront West LRT proposal included a route turning south (and underground) from current point of entry to Exhibition place, under Princes Boulevard (the main east west street in the park), and emerging into the land now occupied by the Ontario Place parking lot. This scheme was strongly opposed by Ontario Place management who preferred to cater to motorists coming to their site rather than transit riders.
Within Transit City, there is also a Waterfront West LRT. Its alignment through Exhibition place included various options differing mainly in whether the route followed the north or south side of the park. Because the WWLRT was seen as an “express” route to southern Etobicoke (a dubious claim at the best of times), a southern route was seen as taking passengers “out of their way”. Sadly, there has been no recent examination of transit to Exhibition Place as opposed to through it.
The Advisory Panel’s report includes a short section on transit to Ontario Place on pages 45 to 47. This includes:
ONTARIO PLACE IS UNDERSERVED BY PUBLIC TRANSIT. TTC streetcars and the GO Train do not go to Ontario Place. Streetcars go as far as Exhibition Place, and the commuter GO Train service provides access at the GO Exhibition station that is adjacent to the streetcar loop. The only mode of public transportation that goes directly to Ontario Place is the Dufferin Street bus — but this is only in the summer season.
Well, no, the Dufferin bus does not GO to Ontario Place per se, only to a loop along Princes Blvd provided that it is physically possible to operate buses on this route. This service is infrequent presuming that it is not short-turned. (Some of the Dufferin buses did run south to Ontario place in 2011, but this operation was dropped for 2012 because Ontario Place closed.)
The Advisory Panel recommends that parking for Ontario Place be provided in either a parking structure (under of above ground) or by Exhibition Place which has a vast amount of parking most of the year long.
Among the options proposed by the Panel are:
WE SEE A NUMBER OF OPTIONS TO IMPROVE THE ACCESS REQUIRED to generate the crowds Ontario Place needs to attract:
First extend Dufferin Street further south to provide direct bus access to the area and extend the streetcar loop from Exhibition Place.
Second, create more north south pedestrian and cycling paths.
Finally, bicycle storage and rental locations must grow — to encourage riders to bring their own bicycles, and to link to the growing network of bicycle rentals.
Notable by its absence is any mention of the implications improved north-south access through Exhibition Place will have for events that now take over the entire park.
This brings us to a recommendation:
RECOMMENDATION 18
Working with the PRIVATE SECTOR and PROVINCIAL and MUNICIPAL PARTNERS, Ontario Place should explore NEW PUBLIC TRANSIT OPPORTUNITIES to better access the western lakeshore area. [Caps are in the original text]
It is unclear what exactly is meant by a private sector role in “new public transit opportunities”. The fundamental point in any transit scheme is that only with very high, sustained demand is there any hope for profitability and hence attractiveness of any scheme to the private sector.
Possibly Queen’s Park hopes to recycle the bits of infrastructure dating back to the Mag-Lev scheme, or hopes for someone to propose a monorail loop around the grounds as an alternative to extending the streetcar/LRT trackage. This would impose a needless transfer for riders trying to reach any development on the south side of Exhibition Place.
Finally, Metrolinx has its own scheme to bring the “Don Mills / Downtown Relief Line” west from a proposed GO terminal at Bathurst Street into Exhibition Place. If that’s a goal, and it will happen quickly (not very likely), then this will compete with other proposals that would be termed “short term”.
As with the eastern waterfront, planning for transit to the western waterfront has been a slipshod affair between the TTC, the City, Waterfront Toronto and Metrolinx. If we are serious about redeveloping Ontario Place and the lands along Lake Shore Blvd., we must include good transit as an essential part of any plan.
Updated July 28: The Globe & Mail weighs in with an article (the print version includes a large map).
Steve Munro 
Lack of transit is why I was never all that interested in going to Ontario Place (age was another, unless you are a kid, Ontario Place wasn’t a fun place to go) after the 121 bus was eliminated in favor of 509. I went to see the Chinese lantern festival the second year it ran, (in September after the summer season so those private tour operator shuttles that used to pickup in front of Union Station wouldn’t have been running) and haven’t been to Ontario Place ever since and it wasn’t fun getting to by transit. I had to get off at the ex streetcar loop and walk to the bridge, walking though the ex grounds isn’t easy and a bit scary alone at night.
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I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest the following “NEW PUBLIC TRANSIT OPPORTUNITY” which is really the opportunity of a lifetime!
Instead of building a “Waterfront WEST” LRT, let’s just build a “Waterfront” LRT. Humber Bay shores, Sunnyside, Ontario Place, HMCS York, and then … Toronto Island!
Yes, take the LRT across the Western Gap and service the Island Airport. Then, run along the pathways to Hanlan’s Point, Centre Island, Ward’s Island, and cross the Eastern Gap to reach the Portlands …
From the Portlands, continue on to Ashbridge’s Bay.
Why? Why not? After all, these are “new public transit opportunities” that should not be missed. After all, Toronto is the only city in the world without an LRT to its island (or something like that).
Oh, and if Doug Ford can arrange for the private sector funding, we can make it a monorail instead!
Cheers, Moaz
ps. In all seriousness, though … Ontario Place (and the shoreline/trail areas to the east and west of the park) will need a lot of work. I don’t know how they will find the space to build all the amenities that Tory is imagining for the site.
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Why hasn’t anyone thought of extending the 47 Lansdowne bus south of Queen Street? Jameson is wide enough to handle bus traffic, would serve a high density apartment community en route and connects directly to Lakeshore Blvd. A nice routing to Garrison Creek looping around Stadium, Queens Quay, Bathurst and Lakeshore would more than suffice access to Ontario Place.
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Yes, Ontario Place will never be a vibrant place 365 days a year until it has decent public transit links. If the current (John Tory) recommendations for some residential or office space there are accepted I certainly do not see them being realised without vastly improved transit but, as you say, it’s not easy to see how to achieve this without the ability to go through Exhibition Place with no ‘black-out periods’.
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Steve, just out of curiosity, do you ever remember anybody proposing elevated streetcars in any fashion? I’m sure OP could get service from the lighthouse/roundabout on Fleet if elevated.
Steve: No. An elevated structure is very expensive, and on the waterfront will not contribute to the natural setting of the park and lake shore. Even when the maglev line was proposed, it was a single direction track with small stations. The Ministry of Transportation went out of their way to misrepresent the actual effect of elevated structures particularly on arterial streets and at stations.
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Regarding Dufferin, it’s a classic case of slapping lines on a map to look good. I used to work at Exhibition Place and if they extended Dufferin it would 100% for sure impact Muzik, Liberty Grand, Medieval Times and anything happening at the Bandshell. It would not fly at all.
What is needed and would be useful is a branch of the 509 to Ontario Place via Lakeshore. Now that the new streetcars will have programmable digital signs I do not see any problems. Running streetcars on Lakeshore for a few hundred metres should not be an issue and would be a logical alternative to tearing up Exhibition Place.
Steve: The last thing we need to worry about for routing changes is programmable signs. After all, routes 508, 509 and 510 did not exist when the CLRVs were delivered.
On another note speaking of Streetcars, Dufferin and Exhibition Place there is talk amongst the TTC Rank and File (according to Brad Ross) about recreating the 521 during the CNE given that the 509 is bus only as of this weekend. He confirmed via twitter earlier that the commission was looking into it given the obvious need for transportation to the CNE.
Steve: Yes, I saw that tweet. It will be interesting to see if it bears fruit with a revived 521 King Exhibition car.
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How about an ‘event’ train, a simple tractor hauled two or three car rubber tired train that runs during events from the Ex Loop/Go Ex Station, to Ontario Place when it is operating, to FC for games, to one or more Ex parking lots, to the National Exhibition Hall, and to the Dufferin loop maybe.
Routes would vary day to day, and be published along with next bus times on electronic signs at stops, and on hand held devices.
It could be free to the user, paid for by Ontario Place and other Ex events. In any case it would not be an expensive proposition – six or eight trains – and operating costs limited by not having to run all day every day.
The vehicles could be a lot like those at Niagara Falls, or perhaps more spartan. Who knows, perhaps the Falls are eying new ones and we could get the old ones. How about a name – ExBus.
Such a thought ignores the more serious questions of transit through the ex, to the ex, the DRL and the WW line etc, but come the day any of that becomes a reality the rubber tired buses could simply drive away.
Steve: The last time I looked, the capacity of major venues such as Ontario Place was considerably higher than what will fit in a tractor hauled train. This is not High Park.
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A bit off topic, but I read in a neat visual history of Toronto’s streetcars that new models were always rolled out to the public at the CNE. Will the TTC do it with the new cars, and if so can a prototype make in time for this summer?
Steve: The first prototype is not expected until September.
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Streetcar tracks on the Lakeshore down there? I can see the screaming now from the Wheels section of the Star “Oh my God, they want to kill the Indy for the sake of trolley cars!”
Seriously though, any transit really has to fit the form and function of what goes on down there throughout the year. Buses might be enough.
Steve: I think the Indy might be the victim of any residential or commercial development on the waterfront. Imagine having an office building that nobody could get to so a bunch of jocks can drive their extremely noisy cars around in circles. Any transit serving waterfront development must be able to operate all year round, not just when it suits Exhibition Place to let the vehicles through.
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Another transit alternative to Ontario place without bothering with Dufferin is to bring back the 63C branch of the Ossington Bus straight down Strachan Avenue (when it’s open), along Lakeshore Blvd, and into the Ontario Place entrance. The little bus bay with bus stop pad is still there.
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Two things come to mind:
1) You can’t get there from here (particularly from the existing Exhibition loop)
2) Should service be a stub-end branch, or do we look for through-running?
For 1), I don’t see any easy way to continue tracks beyond the loop to Ontario Place. Sure, you could just run it down through the middle of Exhibition Place and put a bridge over Lake Shore, but you’d have an elevated loop. Maybe the revitalization can incorporate such a thing, but in the present layout, it’s not practical.
Running down Strachan from the existing Fleet trackage might work. However, trying a south-side alignment would conflict with the Waterfront Trail, which has become *very* busy, partly I suspect because of residents in all the new condos around Fort york.
What I’m left with is an alignment that runs along the existing Lake Shore roadway, possibly on the south side. That would take away at least two traffic lanes. I can imagine the outrage.
2. I’m not sure I like the idea of the revitalized, year-round Ontario Place being at the end of a branch route. Possibly we could run (most?) Harbourfront and Bathurst cars to Ontario Place instead of Exhibition loop. The only advantage the existing loop has is its proximity to the GO station, but I’m not sure how many connections are made there.
If we want Ontario Place to be on a through route, then the two options that come to mind are:
a) WWLRT, i.e. on an east-west route
b) Dufferin South, i.e. on an L-shaped route similar to Spadina. With the elimination of the Dufferin jog it becomes easier to run a streetcar up Dufferin, but there’s the problem of looping at Dufferin station. (I really can’t imagine a Dufferin streetcar running further north, given the gradients on Dufferin. A trolley coach route, maybe.)
Anyway, it seems that the elements of the “revitalization” have to be developed together with the transit plans. There’s little point drawing detailed routes on a map without knowing what elements are going where on the site. The location of the new attractions, businesses, and homes will help dictate the location of the stops….but the feasibility of getting transit to Ontario Place may dictate the location of the new construction as well.
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The proposed bus extensions seem like the easiest solution and they can be implemented quickly. Both bus routes could terminate at the “new” Ontario Place. The challenge would be in making it possible for both buses to bypass Lakeshore Road between Ontario Place & the Exhibition … so that bus service would operate year round and not be affected by daytime traffic, events, the Ex or the Indy. Besides, that part of Lakeshore Blvd. is unfriendly to pedestrians & public transit users and there doesn’t seem to be any plan to change that.
As for Dufferin being extended down to Ontario Place … well it does look like someone saw the map and decided to draw a line. And, while it would be a disappointment for the Ex grounds to be carved up even more, that seems to be the long term trend in how the ground have evolved.
But at the same time, something tells me that developers will not be willing to put money into the “new” Ontario Place if it has no streetcar service and just has buses. So, why not this: If the money can be found, build an extension of the streetcar track from the Exhibition loop to meet with Dufferin. Then, run a single-track “toonerville trolley” route through the Ex, from Dufferin loop down to Ontario Place (along the line of the proposed street extension), east along the Ontario Place parking lot, and then back up through the Remembrance Park area, before reconnecting with the streetcar tracks.
Cheers, Moaz
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Are we, (or have we been) at the point where we need a Freeze on All Development in the Toronto core, south of Queen St. between Humber Bay and the core/Yonge until we have a firm plan with funding in place for some form of improved transit?
Just a few short years back, when fussing about the folly of the Dumb Growth of the Front St. Extension, after several years worth of wondering where transit options were instead of the Pantalone Parkway, (and many progressives were blindp to transit here), I got to look at the original WWLRT EA – and they’d actually kinda suggested and urged a more direct link to the core via Front St. – and surely we could manage to somehow get a link to the vicinity of Ontario Place, and So What?!! if we lose the car race – there’s something called climate change, and we here in Caronto, Ontcario, are actually far more on the side of climate cariminality and eco-pigs than the “green saints” that some say that we are eg. don’t believe the greenwash, though there are a number of good people trying to do good things.
As for funding, maybe to start the process, the TTC should announce plans for a gas-fired generating system for their/our fleets/subway – and time it so that by the time the next election rolls around, they too could be bought off and maybe we could actually shuffle some mega-millions into planning for transit; even new buses!!
And if we can’t get funding for transit through that route – what about a new tax on hard surfaces for parking lots – including all the gov’t buildings and public agencies and institutions like the Ex, because all that hard surface area is a eco-problem, right?
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Half-baked idea: From what I recall of the topography in the area, the Exhibition grounds are at a higher elevation than Ontario Place and Lake Shore Blvd – by about 10 metres or so? I wonder about the feasibility:
– Putting a deck over Lake Shore Blvd from east of British Columbia Rd to Newfoundland Rd (give or take), ‘burying’ Lake Shore at its already-lower level. The south end of this decking could be open for natural light and ventilation. Meanwhile, nearly the entire width of the Ex and OP grounds just became an enormous pedestrian/transit connection.
– The Exhibition streetcar loop could, at no insignificant expense, be reconfigured to (warning: spaghetti on a map coming up) point cars south along Nova Scotia Ave to head for the OP grounds across the new deck.
– Bonus: More seating for the air show on Labour Day!
Given the lack of through streets on the Ex grounds and the highway-like nature of Lake Shore, this seems like a solution that involves very little reconfiguration of existing roadways. Thoughts?
Steve: Decking over Lake Shore, aside from ventillation requirements, will raise problems for the Indy races and other events that use this road as a parade route.
As a general observation, I don’t think that any route through the CNE grounds is practical given the way this area is used at various times of the year. Any transit service to Ontario Place will go via the perimeter of the site. The question is whether we put it underground (as originally proposed, taking advantage of the grade difference north of Lake Shore).
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per your comment to OgtheDim
This is exactly the situation for some of the world’s most high-profile car races – Monaco Grand Prix, Gold Coast Indy, and so on. As a once-a-year weekend event that would pack hotels and balconies on the Ex site, I would expect the Indy race to be a selling point, not a detractor, to new development.
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The major transportation problem with Ontario Place, and Exhibition Place, is how the car took over. There used to be NO Lake Shore Blvd.. See this map of Exhibition Park (now Place) in 1914. No Gardiner Expressway, no Lake Shore Blvd.. Too bad we can’t use that map as the first step in creating a new Ontario Place. Instead, we have to consider how do we cross through or over Lake Shore Blvd. to reach it.
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I have a thought for the redevelopment of the Ontario Place grounds and to be honest the Port Lands as well. I think that we should put bids to the highest bidders for each space and as part of the redevelopment there must be certain conditions that are met. Things like solar panels on buildings and other eco friendly options, as well there should be a contribution say 10 percent of the money from each successful bidder goes towards improving transit in the local areas. The city and the provincial and federal governments may also be more willing to help fund a transit expansion as long as the companies that are bidding on the sites and doing the redevelopment are also helping to improve public transit to the Ontario Place and Ex grounds as well as the Port Lands.
In all honesty I have even suggested in the past that on the Port Lands site we build a new Exhibition and Ontario Place type site, something more state of the art and then build a much better transit system that way and then take the existing site and build a better Lake Shore Blvd and eliminate the Gardiner in the area. The downside to my idea was that BMO field was built after I had suggested it. Plus there are a couple buildings on the EX grounds that could be heritage style buildings.
All I know is to rebuild Ontario Place we need a better transit system partially paid for by developers and the different levels of government but in the meantime running new branches of routes and even for the next year while the 509 is a bus maybe running the bus to Ontario Place would be a start.
Steve: The idea that there the city is awash with developers who have nothing better to do than spend heavily on waterfront sites is off base on a few counts. First, anything they build must be marketable, and delicious though the waterfront may be, there is only so much demand for very high end condos. Second, there is a limit to how much development the market can absorb. This issue came up in studies for the Port Lands where it was estimated that it will take decades to soak up what could be built there, and that if we go too fast this will simply be at the expense of development elsewhere in the city. Third, the cost of infrastructure has to be borne at the beginning of the cycle, probably before much of the development is in place, and there is no guarantee that there will be sufficient development to cover infrastructure cost (not just transit, but water, sewer, hydro, etc) even in the medium term.
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Question: Was not Toronto’s Mayor Barbara Hall’s husband the head of Ontario Place at this time?
Steve: Yes, he was.
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With every development, whether residential or commercial, there are city by-laws that require the developer to provide a minimum number of parking spaces. This requirement can dramatically increase the cost of the project and is often higher than what the developer would provide if they simply used market factors. If the city removed these parking spot requirements, and instead required the developers to pay the money ‘saved’ towards transit improvements this could be a win win situation, providing one source of funding; out of many, without the developers crying foul. This might also ensure transit is built as a priority by all concerned parties, rather than being an afterthought.
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Ontario Place is accessible during the Indy. Every summer before the Indy they convert a section of the Martin Goodwin trail by Lake Shore and Strachan so it can used by cars to access Ontario Place. It is converted back after Caribana.
Transit isn’t easily accessible if you live on the Toronto Islands, but that hasn’t made it any less desirable to live there.
Steve: Accessible means transit and a reasonable walk. It should not mean getting of a streetcar and trying to figure out what roundabout path will get me across a “public” park today.
As for your analogy to the island, let’s start running the Indy on Queen’s Quay. Shut it down for a week or so, fill it up with noisy cars, and see how the folks in all those condos and waterfront businesses react. It’s amazing how people in Toronto can get bent out of shape over cycling events taking over highways on Sunday mornings, but it’s ok to have a car race move into a major chunk of downtown roadway for several days.
The Indy leads a charmed life because it operates in an area that has tolerated it for years, but if the waterfront builds up through Exhibition Place, I would not count on that lasting much longer. Good riddance!
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Spending $100 million on a streetcar line to Ontario Place is not a high priority. There are many other far more pressing transit needs throughout the GTA, in particular running GO trains on the Lakeshore line (which runs to Exhibition Station) more frequently. It only takes 10 minutes or so to walk from the GO/streetcar station to Ontario Place, maybe 15 minutes if there is a special event and you go along Manitoba Dr, Strachan Av and Lake Shore. Better signage should be installed. This is hardly any different from the walking distance from the SkyDome to Union Station or from Canada’s Wonderland to the far end of the huge parking lot there.
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Let Waterfront Toronto take over planning. Notwithstanding political interference, they seem to know what they’re doing, based on their completed projects.
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I would like to see a dedicated route along the Lake Shore heading east from Humber. You would get all the park space east of Humber river, Sunnyside beach, the Exhibition/Ontario Place (people can use the service to go to the Exhibition even if it is meant for Ontario Place), and then the Waterfront. It could either end around Union, or end up continuing east as part of the eastern WWLRT.
I do question having transit going through the Exhibition grounds. The Dufferin bus already gets rerouted because of the Indy, the CNE, and the Royal. Any other plans running through the CNE grounds would have the same issues.
Steve: One of the schemes for the WWLRT involved branching off of The Queensway at Colborne Lodge Road, turning south and running east in the median of a revised Lake Shore Blvd. This was to be integrated with plans for a revamped Western Waterfront park and improved pedestrian access to the lake. The TTC fought against this idea preferring alignments that stayed closer to King Street and involved very difficult connections close to the Queen and Roncesvalles junction.
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J McMillan says:
The Star suggests in an editorial that both Ontario Place and Exhibition Place should be transferred to WT.
Much as I appreciate the work WT has done, I do not think they have discovered a money pit during their various excavations. It makes much sense to have both parks planned and run as one but any changes will take LOTS of money. In addition, WT is funded by the three levels of government and though the City and the Province might be happy to ‘unload’ the parks to WT, I am not sure the Feds would accept them.
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Actually the Indy only limits access for two or three days, not more then a week.
The diversion is little worse then a typical streetcar diversion, which tend to last for months.
Steve: The problem is with setup and teardown which blocks paths through the grounds for days before and after the actual event. Even the Dufferin bus service was rerouted/removed at times this year.
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First let me say that this is another project that can’t see beyond its nose. No thought of a transit network, or any long range vision of how the city should develop. The question should not be “How can transit serve a revitalized Ontario Place” but rather “How can transit cause Ontario Place to become revitalized”.
If the province whats to increase the value of its “asset” what better way then to put a useful connection to the transit network at its front door?
So, my line on the map; first look west? Restore a Sunnyside transit/pedestrian bridge roughly lined up with Roncesvalles, to get the streetcars south of the Gardiner. (What is a 5-way grand union?) Then stay south of the curent LSB all the way to Bathurst. Remove Fleet St. entirely and the current exhibition loop. There is too much pavement in that area.
Also, in my preferred future world I see the real white elephant in the room, the Gardiner, brought down to the ground and split around the Exhibition grounds with west bound lanes on the current alignment and eastbound lanes where the current Lake Shore Blvd runs. LSB west of Exhibition would just be a 2-lane road and not function as an artery into a downtown road network that can’t handle it. Routing what is essentially the WWLRT as I described above makes this road reconfiguration doable.
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Andrew said:
Do we really need to once again bring out the example of Danforth Between Donlands and Woodbine to illustrate how much of a failure the “You only have to walk for 10-15 minutes to reach transit” mindset is for economic development?
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The real problem is that there are still people who think we need to cater to the automobile. Instead, we get vast asphalt deserts creating barriers for pedestrians and transit users. We have parking lots separating Ontario Place and Lake Shore Blvd.. We have another parking lot on the site of the “New” Fort York (only the Stanley Barracks remain), which was basically located near the south-east corner of Exhibition Place.
Parking lots should be hidden out of sight. Transit should be up front and easy to use. And pedestrian use should be encouraged, not put in at the last minute.
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Nick L said
Between Coxwell and Donlands, the longest spacing is 650 metres. Even Coxwell to Woodbine is only 850 metres. It’s a maximum 5 minutes walk to the nearest station.
I know that some like to think that it was the subway replacing the streetcar that changed the vibrancy of Danforth … but surely Gerrard has suffered even worse over the same period of time from Broadview to Woodbine – with only Little India saving it from complete oblivion.
Perhaps a bigger factor on what has lead to the decline of Danforth, is the NIMBYish zoning along the street, that has really limited development.
Though perhaps that was a good thing, as what will likely be developed now that zoning is gone, is probably more liveable than what would have happened in the 1960s and 1970s, based on what got built around Main and Victoria Park stations.
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The walk from Exibition GO station to Ontario is about 600 meters. A predestrian bridge with a roof (like the Pickering one which spans over the 401) would serve well there. If 600 meters post a physical challenge to some people, installing a movator would solve that problem. This cost much less than building a people mover system or extending any form of transit. Transit has to end somewhere. We all like a metro train to drop us at a hotel lobby directly, but this is not possible.
The transit assets are already there. There is a tram and a GO station there, which can be enhanced. Right now, a walk from the GO station and the tram boarding area is not very pleasant. If that area can be roofed, build restrooms and a few snack vendors, it could very well become a mobility hub especially with upgraded GO service.
On a side note, when the tunnel at Billy Bishop Airport is complete, the Exhibition tram line will be able to bring foreign guests to the Exhibition (and Ontario Place) in a one seat ride shortly after landing. The same tram line will also allow another connection to GO transit bypassing Union Station.
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I used to take the Dufferin 29D bus southbound every morning (part of a transit commute that took me from the Corso Italia area to Exhibition GO). The TTC eliminates or diverts this route extension whenever there is anything going on at the CNE grounds, including set-up or take-down for events. For example, the Exhibition itself diverts the route for about a month (the Ex itself and then a week or so on either side for set-up / take-down) Similarly for the Indy, CHIN picnic, etc. The net effect is that the 29D basically doesn’t run during the summer months. And, at least in the past, there is generally no prior notice from the TTC when these changes are made — the 29D simply doesn’t come — no mention on the website, either. So you suck it up, get on a regular 29, and walk (or run) the last 800 m from Dufferin and Liberty to the GO station.
My complaints about this to the TTC were answered with finger-pointing to CNE staff, who apparently give the TTC only day-to-day notice about 29D routing.
Needless to say, I have an alternative commute now — one that doesn’t depend on the 29D.
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The Tory report is very vague and filled with every politically correct phrase imaginable. I lived for seven summers on my boat at Ontario Place Marina 1994-2000, and experienced some of the negative changes which reinforced its decline, especially the northward move of the transit loop and the replacement of the Forum with the Molson Amphitheatre, along with earlier decisions ending “free” concerts and general political patronage hanky-panky. In the 1980’s it was still a vibrant place for families, but in the 90’s all I saw was decline. Even free video games for kids were eliminated …
The CNE transit loop move was particularly unpleasant because it made commuting by bus or streetcar unpractical.
I was astounded that the report said absolutely nothing about the future of the Marina, which has both a regular “permanent” clientele and short-term visitors to Ontario Place from other ports on Lake Ontario. It was a delightful place to both stay in and visit because of the service provided by the summer student employees. And as a live-aboard, more than once I saved boats from serious damage due to storms in the middle of the night… It is conceivable that the Marina’s continued existence would be opposed by private marina operators, who have faced severe competition from the fine public marinas in and near Toronto opened since the 1980’s. Ontario Placed serves mainly smaller boats, those owned by people of relatively modest means, and it is very important that the waterfront have room for such a low intensity use as marinas and yacht clubs, given the tremendous financial pressures exerted by developers all around the Great Lakes to build very expensive waterfront condos which may include private dockage.
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Andrew wrote:
Actually, you make a valid point. It is not a long walk. But yes, SkyDome requires a walk (longer for Union/GO Transit/subway) than the 510 streetcar, but still a walk. And from the crowd at Union on Saturday there is demand for transit there too. You can’t have transit cover every single square inch of Toronto, but it can work if it is close-by.
But if the WWLRT is built from Humber Bay heading east, then turning into a Waterfront east line, it could potentially make things better, especially for a redeveloped Ontario Place.
Steve: We have to stop thinking of Ontario Place only as a recreational, fair-weather destination. The comparison with a walk to Skydome fails on two counts. There is a weather protected, if roundabout, path available for a good chunk of this journey and it is to a facility whose primary activities occur during warmer months (and under cover if need be). The path to OP is entirely exposed. The Dome is not an office building nor is it a residential complex to and from which travel will occur all year regardless of the weather. As for the GO Train, it would be an, at best, secondary carrier to OP considered as a residential/commercial area.
The comparison I would make is to Harbourfront pre-1990 when the only access was via infrequent service on the Bay and Spadina buses. Attending events in February took resolve (or more likely a car/cab). More than once, I left Harbourfront Centre at 10 pm and had to walk up York Street to the side door of Union Station rather than await the bus (which was never on time) as the gales blew in off Lake Ontario. Please don’t tell me about 10-15 minute walks. Now, when events at Harbourfront let out, there is a good crowd boarding the streetcars which can have standees into Union Station.
As for the residential population, yes, some of them walk over to the business district, but the Spadina/Harbourfront cars (when they ran) are packed. Don’t tell people they can make do with a walk to King Street (and yet another overloaded transit route).
I find some of the comments about walking distances quite dismissive of the fact that there is a great variety of ages among travellers, suggesting that it’s ok to have a forced march to get to transit. In discussions of various rapid transit schemes, people have written here at great length on the ideal stop spacing and walking distance, and yet for OP, suddenly all of that seems to have been forgotten. Exhibition Loop is in a lousy location, a political decision made years ago because nobody wanted to put transit where it would actually be useful, but also be in the way of more important facilities like parking. Such are Toronto’s priorities.
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I think that if we see frequent service on the Lakeshore line, this will be by far the most heavily used way of getting to Ontario Place and the Exhibition grounds. For obvious reasons, trains going once an hour do not generate high ridership.
In any case, there are many, many places in the city where you have to walk 10-15 minutes to a transit stop. Or if a transit stop is available that is closer, many people will just walk anyway because the transit service that is closer to one’s destination is infrequent/unreliable. It seems unlikely that a streetcar to Ontario Place, if built, would run more often than every 10-15 minutes outside special events due to lack of demand. The existing 509 streetcar is deserted outside special events right now. A casino will not generate enough ridership to fill up the streetcars (Montreal’s casino is quite a long walk from Jean-Drapeau station, and there is an infrequent bus), and there is fairly limited room for residential/commercial development, and parts of this site are unsuitable for residential development due to proximity to the island airport flightpath. This line will see ridership similar to Karen Stintz’ pipe dream streetcar to the zoo.
Steve: Deserted? Try telling that to the riders living in those condos on Fleet Street who complain about inadequate service in the rush hour. As for the Lake Shore GO line on which you fixate, there has to be some reason for it to be preferred as the mode of access to and from the OP site. If it won’t generate riding for a streetcar line, it certainly won’t generate riding for a GO train that involves a long walk.
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Back when the Eaton Centre was being built, someone commented that there was a limit of, say, 500 feet that customers would walk from one store to another. The front door of the new Eaton’s store was 510 feet from Simpson’s.
Could we get a loop running clockwise around the Exhibition grounds — along Lakeshore and turning back in around the Ontario Government and Hobbies buildings to connect with the current loop? One extra curve at the Princes’ Gates and they could electrify the Indy.
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Andrew, now inexplicably touting the benefits of GO Lakeshore, writes:
Sure there are: suburban cul-de-sacs, dying industrial areas, river valleys. But how many of these places are massive redevelopment showcases?
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Just want to point out that a walk that is 10-15 minutes for a fit adult can be an excruciating experience if you have a family in tow — even if everyone is able-bodied.
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10-15 minutes. Aren’t we exaggerating a bit? Google maps has the paths in CNE and the pedestrian bridge to Ontario Place. It says it’s 800 metres (9 minute walk) from Exhibition Station to Ontario Place and only 650 metres (7 minute) from Exhibition Loop. Given Google walk times always seem a bit generous, and there isn’t a single traffic light to slow walkers down, it’s not unreasonable at all.
Compare it to the 1,000 metres (13 minutes) that Google shows to walk from Union subway station to the NW corner of the Skydome.
For those that drive to major attractions, compare it to how far you walk in parking lot from your spot at the Zoo or Canada’s Wonderland sometime . You only have to look in Google Maps for the current Airphoto of Canada’s Wonderland to see cars parked 700 metres from the entrance (and the lot wasn’t full … could be up to 900 metres!). And a similar length for the Toronto Zoo (the overflow lot to the east was in use).
As for the family-in-tow … seems many these days put their able-bodied children in baby strollers and push them everywhere … no wonder we have weight issues in society. I’ve had no problem getting my 3-year old (and now 4-year old) walking from Gerrard down to Queen to go watch a movie she wants to see. Just checking Google … 1,700 metres – 19 minutes. Yes, it takes closer to 25 minutes with a 3-year old, particularly up-hill home. But I don’t see why 750 metres or even 900 metres across the CNE is a big deal, even with the family in tow, particularly if it’s something they want to do.
Steve: OK Now I am going to get snotty about this. First off, we are talking about redeveloping the south edge of the CNE grounds and Ontario place as something more than just an entertainment centre used by people who want to go there and primarily in fair weather. People choose to go (or not) to the Dome or Wonderland, and access issues are an integral part of that decision. If we are talking about something with a wider, all-weather market, then we have to talk about accessibility for a broader population.
The crow-fly distance from Exhibition Loop is meaningless when the centre of the park is cluttered with preparations for the Indy and the CNE, and during the latter reaches a point where one cannot walk straight through the park but rather must get off at Strachan and walk down and in from the east (that’s if the operator of the streetcar even bothers to stop there).
If we were building Ontario Place brand new today, and made it so hard to get to, there would be howls of outrage. However, many here seem to prefer making excuses. Maybe you should all take up the cause of a Sheppard Subway with one or two stops between Don Mills and the Rouge. It’s only a short walk, after all to the spots in between.
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“10-15 minutes. Aren’t we exaggerating a bit? Google maps has the paths in CNE and the pedestrian bridge to Ontario Place. It says it’s 800 metres (9 minute walk) from Exhibition Station to Ontario Place and only 650 metres (7 minute) from Exhibition Loop. Given Google walk times always seem a bit generous, and there isn’t a single traffic light to slow walkers down, it’s not unreasonable at all. “
First of all, take a look at the Google map. It’s not from Exhibition GO station, which Google can’t quite connect, but the exit for Exhibition loop. Moving the start point as close to the station exit as possible makes it 1.0 km, and that’s not the entire distance, even if you are on the car facing the exit. And I’m not sure that Google know exactly where Exhibition loop is.
Secondly, the path stops short at the entrance by the amphitheatre. It’s likely you will have to walk further to actually get somewhere. Even if it’s the “closer” parking lots south of Lake Shore, unless we make quite a number of footbridges, there will be extra walking to the bridge, and then from the bridge.
Finally, Google assumes a walking speed of 5 km/h or so, which is pretty brisk for most people.
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I agree if Ontario Place has residential, and turns into year-round use, then you need some kind of transportation. I guess I’m assuming that this is typical Toronto planning and that none of those things would actually ever happen, this century at least.
I was only thinking of the current situation. Yes, access across the CNE and Indy is a problem. There are ways to solve that problem though, except perhaps for the 2-day period when the race cars are actually on the track, if people wanted to make it a priority.
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