Updated February 10, 2012 at 1:00 am:
The description of the reporting mechanism and due date for Sheppard “expert panel” has been corrected to match what Council actually passed. The information previously quoted here came from the original version of the motion.
Updated February 9, 2012 at 2:00 pm:
The minutes from the Special Meeting of Council are now available online.
Updated February 9, 2012 at noon:
On February 8, Toronto Council voted to seize control of the transit agenda from Mayor Ford and to support much of the original Transit City / Metrolinx 5-in-10 Plan that was approved in 2009. I will publish a separate article on the debate and the motions later today.
Additional coverage is available from Torontoist, and a compendium of links to other media is available at Spacing Toronto.
The two most important motions were from TTC Chair Karen Stintz.
The first confirms Council’s support for the originally planned subway-surface alignment of the Eglinton LRT line, for the conversion of the Scarborough RT to LRT technology with an extension north to Sheppard (and eventually to Malvern), and for the Finch LRT west from Keele (the future Finch West station on the Spadina subway) to Humber College. Council also authorizes the TTC to discuss with Metrolinx the feasibility of several future projects: a Sheppard West extension to Downsview, a Sheppard LRT to the Zoo, a Danforth subway extension to the Scarborough Town Centre, an Eglinton extension from Jane to Pearson Airport, and the Downtown Relief Line.
The second creates a special panel with broad enough representation to command political and technical respect. This panel will advise Council on “the most effective means of delivering the greatest number of riders with the funds currently allocated for a public transportation project on Sheppard”. The panel is to report back to a special meeting of Council no later than March 21, 2012.
Reaction from Mayor Ford and his faction was predictably hostile, but now extends to openly defying the will of Council. Meanwhile, Ontario’s Minister of Transportation, Bob Chiarelli, issued a press release affirming the importance of support from “council, as a whole”. Chiarelli has asked Metrolinx to report as quickly as possible on the effects of Council’s position.
Original post from February 6, 2012 follows the break.
The Globe and Mail and the Star report today that Karen Stintz, Chair of the TTC, will file a request with the City Clerk for a special meeting of City Council. The business to be debated will be a reaffirmation of the 2009 Memorandum of Understanding for LRT lines on Eglinton, Sheppard and Finch, and the conversion of the SRT to LRT. Unlike Mayor Ford’s agreement with Premier McGuinty, this MOU has been approved by Council.
A special meeting can be called at the request of a majority of Council (23 members) and must be held within 48 hours making Wednesday, February 8 the likely date for a showdown with the Mayor.
The Globe article suggests that this move will doom Stintz’ position as TTC Chair and will result in the swift removal of Gary Webster, who Stintz has supported against the open wishes of the Ford brothers, as Chief General Manager. This begs the question of whether another special Council meeting will be required to replace the existing members of the TTC board with a more balanced group that will not attempt to thwart the will of Council on the rapid transit file and many other issues.
Steve Munro 
I would like for the SELRT to be scrapped and the money shifted to finishing the Eglinton LRT to the airport.
Steve: The SRT will be replaced with an extension of the Eglinton line, and the demand on it is such that simply closing it down is really not an option.
LikeLike
I really hate to ask this – but, is there any chance that some of the 24 councillors who signed the petition did so with the idea of getting this matter to Council so that they can vote for the Ford subway scheme? (Or might a few of the 24 be susceptible to, uh, persuasion from the Fords to vote in favour of the all-subway plan?)
Steve: You have far too devious mind even for a City Councillor.
LikeLike
Ms. Stintz is not standing for the City of Toronto at all in this transit fiasco. Ms. Stintz is also ignoring the report of Metrolinx that support the mayor’s plan.
Unfortunately Ms. has sided with lobbyists and union interests that favour LRTs, because those interests have financial interests. She made a pact with Ford, and now she is reneging what a shame.
Steve: Actually, Metrolinx’ report is inconclusive. It talks about the benefits of subways, but it also talks about the extensibility of LRT. As for “lobbyists and union interests”, the last person I would expect to side with them is Stintz. It is possible in this world to be in favour of something that a union likes without automatically being a union stooge. In the same way, it is possible to espouse a view of fiscal responsibility without being a serf of capitalism. Argue for your position based on its merits as a transit scheme.
LikeLike
So I sent an email to Doug Ford, my local councillor, explaining to him why Transit City and its current incarnation are a good thing for Toronto, disproving common beliefs the Fords have expressed, and why he should support it. As a sign of goodwill (and supposedly what Rob does), I even invited him to call me personally to talk transit. I doubt I’ll get a response.
Hopefully we return to sensible, responsible, affordable transit in the city, rather than a swanway from one shopping centre to another. Either way, I’m wondering if there is a way to get at least one less Ford at City Hall … one can only hope people in Ward two open their eyes and see the Fords for who they really are. Right now it seems unlikely for me, or anyone else, to defeat Doug.
Steve: Doug Ford said some time ago that he is fed up with City Hall and isn’t running again. I hope he does not change his mind.
LikeLike
I see the final outcome of the meeting was in favour of Stintz proposal. Interestingly, even TTC GM Gary Webster was stating LRTs made the most sense.
The Mayor is now saying this decision is irrelevant since this is a Provincial project and they had already agreed to a completely underground LRT, and Toronto voted for subways. (Councillor Kelly said that in his interview and Minon-Wong is singing the same tune).
That does of course raise an interesting question: if this is indeed a Provincial project, does that mean Metrolinx will now own and operate the Eglinton line? Is the Mayor’s statement a possible hint that he may push for Metrolinx to take over the TTC?
Phil
Steve: For accounting purposes, Metrolinx will own the line but the TTC will operate it under contract. This all comes down to having debt financing offset on the books by an “asset”. If Queen’s Park just gives the money to Toronto, then the asset is on the City’s books and the debt is at the Province.
LikeLike
Is there any chance a referendum could happen on the council plan? Or is the Mayor and his cronies just blowing steam yet again?
Steve: A referendum can only occur if Council approves the idea. The Mayor cannot initiate one on his own.
LikeLike
How the TTC Commissioners voted:
How do we get rid of the Rob Ford lapdogs on the TTC commission?
BTW. If Rob Ford had brought his MOU (memorandum of understanding) to council last year, things might have been different. Because he believed that he was Supreme Leader and anything he said goes, he believed he didn’t need city council’s approval to try to do a new transit plan.
Steve: Council will have to call another special meeting (it’s unlikely such a motion would make it onto a regular agenda) to strip the current crew off of the Commission and replace them. Oddly enough there is a report on Executive next week about the criteria for citizen members, and this could bring the issue to the floor of Council. Doug Ford has stated that this will give Ford an opportunity to cement his control over the TTC, but Council may have a different idea. I am not sure this possibility has dawned on the Mayor yet. Bit by bit, Council can strip his control of city agencies and even, if they wanted to, of the Executive Committee. Many of the Mayor’s powers are granted by Council, and Council can take them away again.
LikeLike
I was onside with Ford for the Subways, although more so for the DRL.
But I agree that is for City Council to decide as a whole, to decide what will be. I now want things to get going now Council has decided its choice.
I’m in the Warden/Finch area, now retired, mainly because my company moved to Mississauga from Scarborough in 2003. I retired when I turned 60 for a decent pension and saving 4 hours of my day travelling by transit, as I cannot drive.
Also to mention the GTA Pass to purchase each week. The cancelled Eglinton Subway should have been built before Sheppard, as the 32 bus is packed. Going to Mississauga took me the same time going bus-subway then the 32 bus, as going from home to Warden Stn. to Islington Stn. then taking Mississauga buses.
ps: Mayor Hazel should have picked up a lot of the tab long ago as her buses are wearing out Toronto’s roads coming to Islington. I mean why didn’t she chip in years ago and have the line extended from Kipling to Dixie Rd? She robbed a lot of Toronto jobs,but didn’t keep up very well with transit demand as more employees went out there. I know now there is a new terminal in the works for TTC, GO and Mississauga at Kipling Stn.
LikeLike
Steve, with no update to your blog I was worried you where in such a state of stock at the outcome you took to spending all night wandering aimlessly on the SRT talking to random people.
Steve: No, I went to the opera, then to dinner with a friend and then to bed. I have spent much of my waking time since editing comments here and giving interviews, although breakfast at Bonjour Brioche fitted into my day nicely.
LikeLike
Am I wrong to feel that even though council got this win that there is still going to be a battle over this? Somehow I don’t feel 100% satisfied. Though according to Rob Ford, doesn’t matter what I think, I’m irrelevant!
It’s time now – after this win, that those who are in support of LRT go out and educate people about it’s merits and it must be done correctly because Lord knows that Toronto has a history of screwing up transits.
Steve, you were at yesterday’s meeting, did the rebuttals sound like old men yelling from their porch?
Steve: Yes, but we still have a lot of work to do.
LikeLike
Why don’t they just build the originally planned underground portion of the Eglinton Line first, and then build the rest of the line later when they can decide what to do with the rest of the line.
It seems to me like the whole plan is going to be cancelled due to politics just like Network 2011.
Steve: This would require a “throwaway” terminal in Leaside at the end of the original tunnel, and going at least to Don Mills would be a more sensible interim step. However, the alignment east of Laird Station has different forms depending on which option is used, and getting across the Don River is not simple if they go underground all the way.
LikeLike
So Steve, when can we expect Steve Munro’s All Natural Magic Transit Beans to be hitting stores? I mean, plenty of Ford’s supporters on council have expressed an interest in trading all the city’s income for some. And yes, I’m probably not going to be the only one who will end up calling the Finch LRT The Beanstalk after Councillor Perruzza’s comment.
What I can’t fathom out of all of this is why Ford and his supporters suddenly care what people think. During the library budget consultation fiasco, they made it quite clear what they thought of public opinion on issues that matter. I guess when someone else is paying the bill, fiscal responsibility can go out the window.
And someone needs to explain to Hudak that you can’t oppose the province imposing their green energy projects on communities and then demand the province impose subways on Toronto at the same time.
LikeLike
I think Rob Ford is getting some harsh lessons on leadership. If he had compromised on the budget or slightly with Karen Stintz there would have been no special meeting. If had brought his MOU to council immediately, Transit City would have been killed, but he didn’t and it is rising like a phoenix.
Dalton McGuinty was just on the radio saying he respects Council’s decision and told Rob Ford he needed Council’s approval if he wanted to go ahead with the MOU.
Great times for transit in Toronto. Let us hope some re-aranging of the TTC Commission happens soon. Stintz stepped up for good transit this time but let us not forget how committed she has been in the past to being the point person for Ford’s plan and her disdain for council after the budget changes.
Watching the council meeting and coverage, some whoppers like G. Mammoliti crying for PPP subway on Finch and his motion to pass all money for Finch LRT to Eglinton in hopes for a dream subway left me stunned. CityTV’s coverage by Andrew Krystal was atrocious. Adam Vaughn did a great job putting out some facts and correcting misinformation. Krystal then ran to Mammoliti to try and get the ‘truth’ on LRT vs streetcars. Incredible! Sad to see the depths to which this station has sunk.
Once again, thanks Steve for all your work on this blog to keeping Toronto informed on and discussing improved transit in Toronto.
LikeLike
What does this mean in the short term?
If the expert panel suggests an LRT on Sheppard then I assume construction would get started in short order. But if it suggests a subway extension would that mean that we still wouldn’t see Finch begin construction until 2016?
I know the Minister suggested that the 8.4B would need to adhere to the original spending schedule, but if Sheppard was to be a subway would it not be conceivable that construction wouldn’t begin until 2016? If that were the case could the money for the Sheppard LRT be spent on the Finch LRT and the money for the Finch LRT spent on the Sheppard subway?
Steve: Things are a bit murky right now. The total value of the possible projects exceeds the available funding, and Council will have to decide what its priorities are once the expert panel reports. This must be tempered by the Province’s cash flow restrictions — the City cannot try to spend all of the money in one year. Note that part of the overall motion included a request that the Finch LRT be prioritised.
LikeLike
OK who do i have to sleep with to get the waterfront west LRT back on track?
Steve: I am not sure you would like the answer to that question, and there are probably at least 23 of them.
LikeLike
@joeparex,
The people do need to be educated. And I think the first question that needs to be answered is what the words “LRT” and “rapid transit” mean in the context of Transit City.
Are Transit City lines which save riders 1-2 minutes on their commute compared to the current bus routes, really “rapid transit”.
Steve: As on St. Clair, the issue with time saving relates not to calculated speed, but to headway reliability and the absence of interference from random traffic congestion. The actual times taken by some buses are much worse than the average times would suggest — that’s why vehicles are short-turned.
Are Transit City lines really “modern LRT”, or just glorified streetcar routes. With such close station spacing, no railway crossing arms or full transit priority, and slow running speed due to operations in street medians, Transit City looks more like a fancy streetcar route to many, myself included.
Steve: That’s your opinion. Much depends on how much “priority” the lines actually get. We do not need crossing gates. The biggest challenge is the traffic engineers who won’t give up green time and who work for an administration that values the convenience of motorists over everything else.
These questions and many many more have to be discussed. And above all they have to be discussed in a sound and rational manner. I find the tone on both sides of the debate a tad overbearing. All of a sudden someone who does not support this plan is bad in the eyes of most TC supporters. And this has lead to subway people having a bad view on TC people, etc.
The constant badmouthing and remarks have to stop on both sides.
And proper facts have to be provided. I just read a report which claims the BD subway is under-used. Whoever wrote that has probably never ridden the BD subway, or they would not have wrote that.
Steve: Not me. I live at Broadview Station and know what the BD line looks like. However, the question about Metrolinx love for an underground Eglinton must consider whether diverting traffic off of BD will leave it underused while shifting the transfer load on Yonge from Bloor to Eglinton.
I feel Toronto people are being mislead, because Transit City does not provide modern “LRT” or “rapid transit” like people think. And we have to settle this issue.
Transit City is basically a limited stop streetcar line. It is not “LRT” like most cities are building. And that has to be communicated to people.
LikeLike
In regards to claims that surface LRT can’t carry many people, you’d be surprised how many.
For example in Budapest, Tram lines 4/6 run in the ring Boulevard around the city centre. The road is about 40m across and has two traffic lanes with kerb parking and a segregated central tramline.
It uses a six segmented Siemans Super Combino ultra low floor 54m tram with a capacity of 352 passengers. They run at least every two minutes (often less) and the line shifts 10,000 passengers an hour per direction. Traffic seemed to move fine and there are frequent traffic lights along the route.
I used the system back in November and was very impressed by this high frequency line. Though the Budapest Metro is also great with its frequent trains and quick escalators that go straight from street level to platform, the tram was much more convenient for getting around on foot as each station was quite close, the time lost from frequent stops was made up on high frequency and short walking distances.
If the busy central streets of Budapest can cope with such frequent surface trams I can’t see why some suburban arterials can not. It might not have the capacity of a trunk Metro line but 10,000 per hour is pretty good. By the time it fills up it would be cheaper to build another tram line on a neighbouring avenue than go to the expense of a new metro line.
LikeLike
This probably isn’t the right post to ask on, but how does this decision shake out for Scarborough as compared to the other possibilities?
My understanding of the pre-Ford’s folly Transit City proposal:
Steve: In the original Transit City, the SRT remained ICTS, but this was subsequently changed to LRT as part of the larger network. The shutdown period is longer for LRT, but we don’t really know how long. The conversion period varies from estimate to estimate, and the longer times date from an era when TTC management was pushing an ICTS upgrade rather than LRT and, therefore, presented a worst case scenario for the LRT option.
Ford’s folly:
Steve: This is not correct. At one point, Gary Webster erroneously stated that the SRT would have a long shutdown, but this was corrected to say that the line could reopen from McCowan to Kennedy even before the Eglinton line was completed.
Approved compromise plan:
Steve: The BD extension and the DRL are only items among a longer list for study. There is no agreement or commitment to either of them.
Did Scarborough come out ahead on this in the end?
They’re stuck with bus service on Sheppard for the next several years, instead of having an LRT next year, which is an obvious major loss. And all that wasted time must have an impact on the RT replacement. What’s a realistic timetable on how long that will take to convert/be out of service now? And a separate Malvern line looks like it’s off the table.
But on the other hand, there’s a few projects that would be really beneficial and are now officially out in the open. How much of the list do you think might get built this decade?
~J
*I’m incredibly pleased that councillors voted for an actual expert panel, instead of one where the Mayor either directly or indirectly appoints 2/3rds of the members.
Steve: The Malvern extension won’t be built until the 2020s, but at least there will be an LRT line to build off of. The constraint is fiscal, not technical. With the decision to stay on the surface on Eglinton 2020 date should be achievable. By the way, even that date is a function of the rate at which Queen’s Park wants to spend money. The line could be built and open sooner, but the spike in spending would be higher.
LikeLike
Ah, relative sense and Schadenforde at the same time….
LikeLike
The Chair of the Meeting, Councilor Frances Nunziata claimed yesterday that she was unaware that Eglinton Crosstown was going to be at grade at its western part. The latter crosses her Ward. She was responding Joe Mihevc that if she had ever had a chance to know this she would have never voted for such a plan. Now people and businesses of this part of the York City are going to suffer as this area is facing road widening and expropriation of land.
Thanks to significantly improved design of City Council Database since December 2010, this year it was easy to find the document they were talking about.
According to this official link Ms. Nunziata voted in favor of this alignment of Eglinton Crosstown LRT (not subway).
There is also a REQUEST FOR APPROVAL OF THE EGLINTON CROSSTOWN LRT TRANSIT PROJECT ASSESSMENT STUDY attached to this voting.
So here are some details from this document:
1. Between Commerce Road and Weston Road, Eglinton Avenue will be widened to allow provision of two through traffic lanes in each direction.
2. Between Weston Road and Black Creek Drive and between Brentcliffe Road and Kennedy Road, two of the existing six traffic lanes will be converted to LRT right-of way, with four traffic lanes retained – two in each direction.
Let’s put it that way – Ms. Nunziata’s statements (along with many other statements of Ford’s allies) were not accurate and the reality was a bit different comparing to what we heard yesterday in their loud speeches. Another reason to think how they play their games.
LikeLike
I have such mixed feelings about yesterday’s Council Meeting – excitement at the outcome of the vote itself mixed with a very profound sense that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL AND TANGIBLE will ever come of it.
McGuinty & Co. said, yes, they’re respecting the vote of Toronto City Council – thereby ostensibly putting Transit City back onto the table – yet in the very next breath they expect Council and the Mayor to get on the same page and work as a team – knowing full well that will NEVER happen. Any hope for reconciliation and/or cooperation and teamwork between Ford and Council was dead in the water the moment he declared Council’s action ‘irrelevant’. We’re still stuck with “subways or nothing.”
Everyone knows that Rob Ford would sooner be hung by his petard from the nearest tree before he’d ever cooperate with what he described yesterday as a rogue council. Furthermore, Stintz betrayed him!
Unless the Province is willing to proceed with the transit plan solely on the basis of Council’s vote minus Ford’s support, yesterday’s efforts will prove to have been utterly meaningless.
Truth is, I will be stunned and amazed if one single shovel is “in the ground” a year from now – that is how little faith I have at this late date that anything can or will actually be done. There seems to be far too much divisiveness among Toronto’s citizenry, many of whom can’t or won’t stomach LRT coupled with the mayor’s sheer obstinacy – to allow this, or any, transit plan to be carried out.
I’m willing to bet the Province will take back its eight billion transit dollars and reallocate them. “Transit be damned!! Let Toronto stew in this mess of its own making!” may well be the credo of the day.
Steve: I believe today’s statements make it clear that Queen’s Park is following Council’s lead on this.
LikeLike
Why are they going under the Don River? Even the existing Subway system has enough grade level access an most subway’s go above ground over rivers and stuff.
Steve: This is one of those Metrolinx peculiarities. The Ford MOU clearly has an exemption from underground construction for the river crossings, but at public meetings Metrolinx claimed that it would be underground all the way. In due course they actually looked at the engineering challenges and changed their tune, but not until after several public meetings where they claimed they would go beneath the river. This is one of many examples of inconsistent public information about the design and engineering issues of this line that pollute public debate because Metrolinx was terrified that Ford would object to anything but all underground all the way.
LikeLike
One thing that’s always confused me is this:
People on this blog claim that the peak point ridership for the Eglinton LRT (as originally proposed) would be 9,000 pphpd (in the tunnel portion), and therefore, going underground through North Toronto is justifiable from the transit operations point of view.
Yet, appendix N in the EA clearly shows that it would be about 5,000 pphpd westbound at Allen Road. This is well within the capacity of surface transit.
Which is the correct number? 9,000 or 5,400 pphpd?
And if the 5,400 pphpd number is the accurate one, couldn’t a surface ROW be implemented through Leaside, and still leave 2 lanes/direction, one lane being for parking (much like St Clair)?
Furthermore, when the Agincourt-Crosstown GO line begins operations, I wonder how the peak demand on Eglinton would change, and if Eglinton really needs to operate as a regional corridor.
Don’t get me wrong, I support the current Eglinton Transit City plan. But it’s difficult to explain to Fordites why Leaside needs a tunnel and not Scarborough, when the peak ridership numbers don’t justify tunneling. The reason that Leaside motorists wouldn’t accept a surface ROW could be applied to Scarborough as well.
Steve: Variations in quoted demands on various parts of the line arise depending on which agency does the estimating. Metrolinx always wanted a fully underground option, and their demand estimates showed an appropriately higher level of riding. Note that the Allen expressway is nowhere near the east end of the line, and so peak demand there is not affected by the alignment from Brentcliffe to Kennedy.
As for surface operation through Leaside, Eglinton west of Laird is only five lanes wide for most of the distance to Yonge (Leaside ends at Bayview) and does not have room for two lanes of traffic each way plus LRT and the space needed for stations. It was a squeeze years ago to fit in the fifth HOV lane eastbound. In Scarborough, Eglinton is rather wider.
LikeLike
Hi Steve,
Consider this a proof reading leaving open the possibility I may be interpreting the motion incorrectly.
I believe the 21 Feb 2012 reference is incorrect; it should be 21 Mar 2012. Stintz changed this between her 07 Feb letter to councilors and when the motion was introduced on 08 Feb.
Secondly, it is the expert panel, not the City Manager, who will report to the next special council meeting. So at the meeting, the panel will take questions on their report and then councilors will introduce motions with regards to Sheppard East.
Regards
Steve: You are correct. I was working from the original motion, not the version as adopted by Council. I have corrected the main article. Thanks for catching this.
LikeLike
I would just like congratulate Karin Stintz in particular and the other councilors in general for having the intellegence and guts to stund up to this meglomaniac even at the risk of her own position, this is true courage. She has come up with the correct mix. Personally, I think Sheppard should be LRT but, it may not even meet the figures required for that. Then again, it may in time, require a subway, so be it. The rest is obviously best suited for LRT and the Ford “plan” (read nightmare) was shortsighted and just plain dumb!
Having studied transit all over the world, I would have to admit that I prefer Streetcars and Light Rail over buses and sometimes even subways, to me subways, isolate the travelling public and can take as long to get there as surface transit when you consider what you have to go through to just get to and from the train. In Europe, some cities in the 60’s felt, subways would take all transit off the streets, (whether the subways were LRT or heavy) only to find that, people who want to go a couple of blocks still need surface transit, one perfect example closer to home is Market street in SF, you have 3 (not two) levels of transit, deep BART, middle LRT and on the surface, streetcar, bus and trolley bus!!! And guess what, it all works!!! But I do freely accept, there is a place for buses too it all works in the correct mix.
I just hope that the new plan can now move forward into laying rails and when it’s all done, the nimby’s will vanish under the rocks they crawled out from.
My biggest fear though is, will this buffoon that makes our beloved city a laughing stock, turn his venom onto the streetcar network, I sincerely hope not as the legacy network has so much to offer for the future.
Greg
LikeLike
According to the latest update from , Metrolinx and the Province fully understand that council’s word is final. Looks like Transit City is full speed ahead on Finch and Eglinton once again.
LikeLike
Hi Steve:-
What else could be expected from immature bully boys!
Dennis
LikeLike
Following on to my previous post, this rift between your mayor and council amounts to a stalemate – one possible way out of the all-but-guaranteed deadlock might be if Ford and Council were to agree to put the matter of Transit City versus Subways before the voters in a citywide referendum. There’s just one major hitch – the present agreement between the city and the province along with its eight billion dollars expires next month – there’s no way a referendum could be held on such short notice, even if both parties were to agree to have one.
I don’t see how this matter can otherwise be resolved to Ford’s satisfaction – seems he’ll stop at nothing to block and delay any work absent a binding referendum – including taking the matter to court.
Failing a referendum, I see nothing but civic warfare erupting over this issue. You’re stuck with your mayor until 2014.
LikeLike
Thank you, Steve – I posted my second comment before I saw that you’d responded to my first – I’m very glad to learn that the Province intends to honour the vote of Council and proceed accordingly – maybe there’s light at the end of this tunnel AND on the surface as well, this time around.
LikeLike
I wonder how people would react if they were told that one could think of a Light Rail Vehicle as being just a low floor Heavy Rail rapid transit vehicle. Considering that the original plan for rapid transit in this city from the 1910s would involve funnelling the various streetcar lines under Yonge (or was it Bay St.?) and Queen St, we very well could have ended up riding CLRVs or low floor Bombardier Flexitys in the tunnels instead of Hawker Siddeleys or T1s/T3A05s. And had this underground streetcar rapid transit system been built at the very least the passengers would not be standing on raised platforms with the danger of people falling down onto the tracks (since most of these stations would have probably been like the 604 Harbourfront Queens Quay station). And I am sure that with the modular design of the LRVs (even the UTDC boasted that the CLRV was a modular design back in the day for longer articulated vehicle options) that they could make a single unit LRV as long or nearly as long as a Toronto Rocket train. An interesting little note that Mr. Webster pointed out is that in some respects an LRV can cost more than a subway car since the LRV has to be built and designed for side impact collision provisions, which is something I did not think about earlier.
When the residents of Finch West and the residents of Scarborough east and west of Kennedy get to ride on their nice low floor MU LRV trains they’ll see there’s nothing wrong with them. Unfortunately residents in Scarborough might mistakenly call the Scarborough RT the Scarborough LRT (though that was the original plan) and think that riding at grade or on an elevated guideway will cause as much trouble for the LRVs as it has for the ICTS trains, since I see on the news Mr. Ford riding on the SRT probably chatting with the riders trying to convince them that they will only get their just deserts with underground heavy rail rapid transit. If the SRT goes light rail those LRVs will just whack all that ice off the overhead catenary with their pantographs while cruising at their comfortably high speeds. And the funny thing is that when I look at the original artist renderings for the originally planned Scarborough LRT from the 70s, the streetcars would have had to stop at all the major roads with traffic lights, but instead thanks to the SRT being built, Eglinton, Lawrence and Ellesmere had to be given those big expensive overpasses to accomodate the ICTS line, so I guess you could say the nearly 30 years of the SRT with its unreliable service will grant the future riders of the SRT replacement line continued uninterrupted travel through that travel corridor.
Anyhow, I know I can ramble a bit, but at least there is no word limit here to what I want to say so I can properly say it. I don’t usually write as much as I have in the last few days, but I am very excited with this historic victory, and for once the schoolyard bully politicans aren’t wreaking their havoc unimpeded. I would also like to understand the logic of the right of centre powers that be that well within my lifetime nearly killed all new transit infrastructure construction in the mid 1990s with the cancellation of the Eglinton subway and near death of the Sheppard subway while only about 15 years later are trying to break the bank with a subway in every borough. But that is a ramble for another day… ; )
LikeLike
Rob Ford sure sounded convinced afterwards that the province wanted subways. It seems the expert negotiators of the province did rather spin him a line in order to get him to not demand publicly that all TC money go to a Sheppard line.
It looks like they used Metrolinx’s own desire for a subway using a PPP with Bombardier to sell the Crosstown to Ford, in essence indicating a subway would happen.
And it sounds like they are the ones that put the seed of the “We have people lined up to work with us on Sheppard” idea in his head.
All this would probably have still stood if Hudak had won. And if Ford had gone to council in 2011 to get approval.
Hudak doesn’t win, Ford doesn’t go to council.
And thus we get what we have today.
Such is the stuff of history.
Who would have thought that the visceral reaction of the Tories for a few million $ to give recent citizens a leg up on getting a job would lead to more LRT in Toronto?
LikeLike
Today’s editorial in the Globe (“Stintz acting more like a fiscal conservative than Ford“) is a bit muddled, but it feels like the point hasn’t been made nearly enough how Ford’s subway follies are at odds with the rest of his penny-pinching platform. If Karen Stintz just led us away from spending an unnecessary billion or two on Eglinton, hasn’t she just cut more municipal waste than Rob Ford has ever found? Are gravy trains OK, as long as they run underground?
As for the Mayor’s behaviour on this file, and the belated but now promising response from Council and the province, I’m reminded of that anti-bullying campaign. It gets better.
LikeLike
Jos Callinet said:
The strange part, or the more telling part, about that is the Sheppard subway is not off the table yet. If he can deliver his financial plan for it which “lives within our means” and outlines some of those members of the private sector pounding on his door by March 21st, he can deliver a subway to Scarborough. And let’s face it, he has had more than enough time to at least develop a draft of it by now.
Instead, he seems to be more interested in talking to the news media about what issues will define his reelection campaign three years from now.
Steve: I look forward to the all-candidates meeting where Ford will not be allowed to get away with his endless repetition of half a dozen talking points, and people will have no qualms about calling him out for the incompetence of his reign. By then, his gravy boat will be sitting at the bottom of the lake.
LikeLike
Think Ford is “business”? Then how come real business is sending him letters like this demanding LRT’s.
Steve: Ford does not seem to understand how his policies have interfered with plans long underway that affect the city’s economy. In the same vein, his sabre rattling about a possible lockout or forcing a strike of municipal workers had the construction industry rattled because the pipeline of new projects would be choked off for lack of city staff to work on their files and delays getting approvals through Council.
LikeLike
I also could not understand why the Eglinton line was looking at tunnelling under the Don River (East and West Branch). I thought that 2 or 3 years ago Ford talked about elevated transit on Eglinton through Scarborough – he may have even called it monorail – so maybe he was not married to the idea of underground, but really just wanted grade separated. It appears that tunnelling under the Don was a poor idea that was pursued by the faction who wanted to keep Transit City, just to make sure the TC proposal looks better.
Is there any chance that elevated transit will be looked at, or even side of road alignment west of Don Mills, or was the vote quite clearly about the original plan. Some councillors who supported the motion are still describing different scenarios.
Steve: The Transit City advocates had nothing to do with the idea of going under the Don. The Ford/Metrolinx MOU clearly states that the line wouldn’t do so, but Metrolinx chose to talk as if it would even when I challenged them on this at public meetings. I suspect that the Mayor’s office simply chose to believe that underground all the way meant just that regardless of what was agreed to.
I hope that we can get a decent re-think of a side of road alignment from the portal east of Brentcliffe over to Don Mills where the line was always planned to go underground through the station. The grades in the area make this easy to do. Remaining details include where to surface east of Don Mills relative to the DVP, what to do about the Celestica ramp if the LRT is running along the south side of Eglinton and what sort of structure will be needed at the CPR east of Leslie. The discussion will be affected by the details of the bridge design at the river. If it turns out that a separate bridge is the way to go, then side-of-road is an obvious choice.
I just wish that the whole EA had not been so defensive about discussing options like this. If there are bona fide reasons that a south side alignment won’t work, then give us the details rather than bulling ahead. The TTC is often its own worst enemy as the proponent of such projects.
LikeLike
Why is no one mentioning that Queen’s Park was willing to do what the Mayor said without a decision of the Council before – now they want to make decisions based on the decision of Council. Queen’s Park is not totally innocent on this.
Steve: The agreement with Ford required him to take the MoU to Council for ratification. He didn’t, but Queen’s Park gave him a year to get his act together.
LikeLike
An interesting comment by Mayor Ford was he is fine with Metrolinx uploading TTC. It would help integrate TTC and GO networks and even maybe reduce the overhead.
Steve: Metrolinx would be so overwhelmed by a system the size of the TTC that they wouldn’t know what to do. Meanwhile Toronto riders would have to put up with dribs and drabs of service expansion whenever Queen’s Park wanted an announcement. Ontario does not want the TTC to be part of Metrolinx. It doesn’t need the headache or the cost.
LikeLike
I hope that serious consideration is given to side of the road running from Laird to Don Mills and from Keele to Jane, with a tunnel under Weston Rd. This would give completely segregated Line between Jane and Don Mills which could run close headways under ATO with short turns. Service beyond this would run with normal surface operation.
There has been talk of ATO in the underground section but wouldn’t it make more sense to have ATO run to more useful termini than Laird and Keele?
Steve: We should not let technology like ATO (which by definition means the trains it controls are not true LRT because exclusive right-of-way is needed) dictate the geometry of the line. FIgure out first how best to build the line in the areas it goes through, then add ATO where appropriate.
LikeLike
Scarborough gets screwed again. Under the original plan, the Sheppard East LRT was supposed to be the first Transit City line to open. Aside from an extension of the SRT (future SLRT) to Shepard and Markham(?), Scarborough doesn’t really get any transit improvements or new transit infrastructure. The Eglinton Crosstown barely reaches Scarborough as it terminates at Kennedy station. Time to buy a car. Scarborough will never get reliable transit. I’m starting to believe Doug Ford’s rhetoric that there are some councilors who treat Scarborough residents as second class citizens.
Steve: Read my article over on Torontoist. Scarborough gets far more with the “new” plan, especially if the Sheppard LRT ever gets built out to Meadowvale, than it would ever see in Ford’s plan. Don’t forget that the Eglinton line was not even in Ford’s original scheme, the one he campaigned on, the one he has a “mandate” to build. The SRT would never get north of the 401, and Malvern would be doomed to bus service. Yes, Scarborough got “screwed”, but it was the guy who ran for mayor claiming he would fix all their problems who did the screwing.
LikeLike
Jacob Louy says:
Have I missed an important announcement? What Agincourt Crosstown GO line? Is this a reality or someone’s wishful thinking from seeing a map of CP tracks going from Agincourt across Toronto just north of Bloor St? I cannot see CP letting their right of way being used for more commuter rail without a fight. Also if you build it what would the passengers transfer to in order to get downtown. Yonge and University would not have the capacity to handle them.
If you want to build something from Agincourt make it part of the DRL and send it up the Weston corridor which has lots of track space, if you don’t have to follow TC requirements for mainline rail, for a true transit line. This is what Metrolinx should be looking at instead of converting 14 of their 65 locomotives to tier 4.
The average speed on the 7 GO rail lines varies from about 28 to 35 mph. This is not rapid when you come from Kitchener or Barrie. This is where GO should be concentrating their improvements instead of building the useless line to the airport which is just going to eat up valuable and almost non existent track time from the Weston corridor under TC rules. A number of jurisdictions in the US have received permission from the FRA to use non compliant equipment. SO should we. Sorry if I got a little off topic.
LikeLike