18 thoughts on “Changes to Kingston Road, Dundas, Carlton and St. Clair Ave. W. Services (Revised)”

1. About the 512 St. Clair, the “good times” will last until 2024. Then from 2024 to 2026, they will be widening St. Clair Avenue West between Keele Street and Old Weston Road.

   I’m expecting they will be short-turning at Lansdowne Avenue. If I were dictator, I would have put the old Townsley Loop streetcar tracks back, or use detour streetcar tracks on the St. Clair Avenue West roadway (blocking off that section to car traffic completely). But since the single-occupant automobile is still #1 priority in Toronto, that won’t happen.

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2. Once again Kingston Rd loses its streetcar service, (or most of it) unbelievable consideration lots of streetcars seem to be available.

   Steve: Lots of buses are available too, and at least for the month of July, these are coming out of a pool of unscheduled extras. As for streetcars, a big problem and the delay in restoration until October is the leisurely pace of overhead reconstruction on the Wellington/York loop.

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3. The Salsa on St Clair festival takes place between Oakwood and St Clair West Station. Service suspension will there, not west of Oakwood Loop.

   In reply to wklis’s response, the only “good times” would be this summer. Starting in fall the whole line is to be operated with buses with various projects. Expect them to be stuck in traffic. A presentation is posted on the website last month. Let’s see how much of this remains true by September.

   Steve: Thanks for catching that. I will correct the article. As for the various St. Clair works, it is rather odd that this includes “overhead power upgrades” considering that the line has already been converted for pantograph operation. Also, the track in St. Clair West Station is relatively new. I suspect that this is not a complete replacement, but will check into it.

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4. Which division is doing the 503 Kingston Road Replacement Buses?

   Steve: For July, these will be RAD buses and they will come from that pool which originates in multiple divisions. The August schedule details have not been announced yet, but at that point they will be scheduled runs on a “real” route.

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5. The 47A extension is really had some bad service. The buses go in groups of 3 all the time, and then nothing for 30 mins when all 3 come back. And they do this the whole day. If the Barrie corridor work starts in August will that mean it ends later? I was hoping it would end in December as advertised. Now will we have to deal with erratic service in core winters (Jan Feb)?

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6. I’m reminded of a CityNews piece that ran two days ago as per the Kingston Rd service snafu:

   ‘It’s getting ridiculous’: East end commuters call out TTC

   […]
   Kieran Woods, an attorney who works in the financial district (says):

   “It’s roughly about seven to eight kilometres,” she said.

   A few months ago, it was somewhat of a breeze.

   “I would walk five minutes from my house to Kingston Road, hop on the 503 streetcar and I would be downtown anywhere from 35 to 40 minutes.”

   Today, things have changed.

   “It’s taking me an hour and 15 minutes to get to work,” she said.

   That’s because the 503 streetcar she had been using was put out of service, which wasn’t a big deal at first.

   “They did have a bus that was running in place of the streetcar for most of this year,” Woods said. “It was actually great at getting us downtown.”

   But that too has stopped running.

   “We had no information as to why. We called the TTC to ask what was going on and we were told there was construction on Broadview bridge but no reference as to why that would impact the bus from running,” Woods said.
   […]

   Steve: The degree to which Comms people at the TTC did not understand the reasons behind various route changes, and the total snafus in their implementation and operation, show how badly out of control the TTC is.

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7. Steve said:

   “As for streetcars, a big problem and the delay in restoration until October is the leisurely pace of overhead reconstruction on the Wellington/York loop.”

   They are working on this and it’s not much overhead. All the new poles seem to be up between King and York and some wire is starting to appear too. However, I suspect that ‘they’ will be upset to find the poles on York between Wellington & King are the older (thinner) ones they now seem to replace. What REALLY needs to be done is to fix the switch at King and Church!

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8. Glad that the Kingston Road bus is returning. And I’m guessing that these buses will replace and not supplement the 501/504 King/Queen shuttles?

   Steve: Yes, this is a replacement for the 501/504 buses.

   Still, I genuinely couldn’t believe how bad the TTC’s initial detour plan was:

   1. Running every Queen, Dundas and Carlton car on Queen St E until at least Kingston Road –

   Making all three routes too long to be reliable (on top of not even giving the Carlton cars enough running time), having streetcars on all three routes crawling through traffic in Leslieville and the Beaches (unless they get short-turned, which many of them do), and bottlenecking them at the turn at Broadview and Dundas. This is just a receipt for disastrously bad service.

   2. Not running direct service between Queen Street East and the King Street corridor –

   It shouldn’t have taken them until the detour began to see that they should have run some service between the Beaches and Downtown via King, instead of putting all of their eggs into having three east-west streetcar routes crossing the Dundas Street bridge. Even with construction preventing this to be run as a streetcar route and issues with the King corridor itself, it would still have offered a quicker and likely much more reliable service for riders heading west from Queen Street East. The fact that the TTC has to make up for this with last-minute “extras” is just… baffling.

   Steve: Yes, the diversion services were incredibly badly planned from the too-short running times to the late addition of transit priority signals on Broadview at Dundas and Queen for left turning streetcars. And the public info about how all of this worked was a real mess.

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9. Why is this poor excuse for a management team still employed? The TTC has become so unbelievably dysfunctional its essentially become non-functional. Any other employer and these morons would be fired. But for some reason the TTC management is allowed to continue running the life blood of the city into the ground. If I did not know any better I would suspect that none of the managers at the TTC nor the Board members ever use the service on a regular basis. It’s the only explanation I can come up with. What will it take to get some semblance of competency out of these useless twits? Or is that prospect so far out the window now we should just give up hope.

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10. Don’t know why TTC chose to service that part of St. Clair with the Landsdowne bus instead of adjusting the 189 Stockyards to service this area which isn’t that busy of a bus.

    Steve: In theory, the service on the Lansdowne bus is more frequent, every 10 minutes or better, whereas the Stockyards bus is worse than every 20. Also, when the underpass between Old Weston Road and Keele closes for expansion in a later phase of the overall St. Clair project, the Stockyards bus would not be an option.

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11. The Shuffle Demons sang about the Spadina bus, but think they could have followed up with the 501 blues or something.

    Living in the Beaches, I often think the TTC doesn’t care about us, even before the Ontario Line construction. Like the person in the CityNews interview, I will walk from Woodbine down to Kingston for some options, and watch 6 to 8 streetcars going East and nothing going West (No short turns!)

    I usually get off at Broadview to get on one of the buses going to King/York (as far as I’m going anyways). The other day (weekday) a TTC volunteer came up and asked me where I was going. I told him King/York and he said that’s only peak hours and they aren’t running. I mentioned the TTC info (Monday to Friday, 7am to 7pm) and he said no, best to take the 72A to King/Parliament. I ended up taking that as it just arrived, and then transferred onto the 504. A lot of transfers for a 10km trip.

    Going home after work at 11pm (I work at Billy Bishop Airport), I try and grab the 501 bus at King/Bay. Usually good, and maybe there is some reason behind this, but no communication between a bus dropping us off at Kingston, and a streetcar pulling away due East. Check App..next one in 25 minutes. I only get to my stop (Queen/Woodbine) about 25% of the time.

    I’ve lived in Ottawa, Victoria, and Vancouver … and Toronto does have the “best” (scare quotes) transit in Canada, feel that they are their own worst enemy:

    Queen Street is a major thoroughfare which can’t handle the amount of traffic (curbside park and the CafeTo again..why) so running 3 streetcar lines is just nuts, and the TTC should know this just with the 501.

    Transfer points aren’t thought out and are confusing – especially at Broadview/Queen – take the 504/505 or 501 bus, or cross the street in front of the hotel and take the 504 or 501 bus.

    It just seems that the TTC forgot about the Ontario Line, panicked, and just said “throw buses at the routes” and hope for the best.

    My next rant will be about the 509 and absolute packed streetcars to Union!

    Steve: The TTC schedules service based on what they claim are the loads on the cars, but the actual service is extremely erratic causing a lot of crowding and big gaps. The misinformation given out by some staff both online and in person is embarrassing, and further complicates riders’ attempts to get around the city. There was no advance consultation about the service design, and some of that was bound up in the secrecy about service generally during the budget “debates”. Rick Leary has a lot to answer for.

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12. A few comments on St. Clair West.

    The lack of work on the overpass has not gone unnoticed by TTC customers and is the topic of conversation and occasional Shouted Rants To All at my stop (#14889, SE corner of St. Clair and Lansdowne). I’ve been surprised by the sheer number of passengers waiting on the corners because they have been displaced by the change from bus to streetcar and vice versa.

    Something I’ve haven’t seen commented on: the TTC (or whoever) has so far not implemented a left turn signal for westbound streetcars turning south from St. Clair into the Earlscourt loop. Drivers have several strategies: some politely inch out on their green light and amazingly, eastbound traffic stops to let them through. Nervier drivers aggressively start the turn with the same effect. Most, though, wait for the red light and make their turn on it. This has the unintended effect of cutting off time for the automobiles northbound on Lansdowne waiting to turn left (and eventually continue north on Caledonia). Even without this reduced time, the line of cars often extends south all the way to Davenport.

    Even more disconcerting is that these red-light turning streetcars cut off pedestrians crossing Lansdowne eastbound along St. Clair, as well as those crossing St. Clair southbound.

    More: Can the TTC management not script an announcement for drivers to read about the “short turn” (perhaps when they are stopped at Earlscourt)? They all have to make up their own wording with varying degrees of brevity and clarity. I guess this suggestion will be made obsolete on Wednesday.

    Another thing: When this diversion first started, the TTC posted notices at the westbound stop on the northwest corner of St. Clair and Lansdowne, but they posted them on the red and white pole that is technically “the stop.” That pole is at the far west end of the streetcar island (are they still called that?) but everyone gets on the streetcars from the crosswalk at the east end of the island. You can’t access the island safely at the west end and no one goes down to that end from the east end. Consequently many riders did not see the notices. They were left waiting for streetcars that would never arrive until a kind pedestrian or potential passenger would go over and tell them.

    One last thing (I’ve recently moved back to Toronto after 30 years in Richmond Hill). I’m astounded at the number of TTC drivers who run red lights along St. Clair, in the sense that after taking on passengers, they enter the intersection on an amber light (or even occasionally on a red). I grew up in Toronto and was a close observer of the TTC as a kid in the 1950s and 1960s. Never saw that behaviour.

    Thanks for your good work.

    Steve: The absence of transit priority signals in many places is something I have flagged for years. The foot-dragging about this is very frustrating. Where they are badly needed is in locations used for regular diversions, not just for scheduled movements, because the extra turns and delays they bring can add substantially to travel times when vehicles need all the help they can get.

    Scripted announcements can be built into the PA system for operators to call out, or to be triggered automtically by GPS. For example, there are announcements about the non-availability of ramps at stops on Roncesvalles that are made both ways as cars approach that segment.

    Notices? Oh dear yes. If they get posted at all. My favourite recent cock up was at Queen and Broadview where there was one big notice inside the transit shelter, but many smaller ones (including one hand lettered) tied around the stop pole. When standing inside the shelter you would never see the stop pole because the view was blocked by the advertising wall.

    Red lights. There is a problem with the so-called transit priority which gives an extended green, but at some locations doesn’t extend it long enough to allow for typical streetcar operating conditions. The farside stops have their own problems, but they cause streetcars to drop out of the traffic “wave” and get to intersections just as the light has already decided to change. Nearside stops present a different problem because obviously while serving the stop, streetcars don’t need a green signal, and they can tie up the intersection with an extended green they don’t need until the last minute when it is too late. There is no way for an operator to signal that they want to leave “now”. I have seen proposals to have this type of function linked to whether doors are open, but even that could run aground on passenger activated doors. The whole problem is a design exercise that the traffic signalling industry does not appear to want to address, at least not here.

    Thanks for reading!

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13. Steve: Yes, the diversion services were incredibly badly planned from the too-short running times to the late addition of transit priority signals on Broadview at Dundas and Queen for left turning streetcars.

    They added protected phases for the turns at Dundas westbound and Queen eastbound?

    Steve: Yes. They have been active for about a week.

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14. That’s a minor miracle. While they’re at it maybe they can install additional signals at other nearby locations for commonly used left turns such as Queen to Parliament southbound and Gerrard to Broadview southbound.

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15. Queen Street is a major thoroughfare which can’t handle the amount of traffic (curbside park and the CafeTo again..why) so running 3 streetcar lines is just nuts, and the TTC should know this just with the 501.

    It’s astonishing what city departments allow to happen. These planned works didn’t spring up out of nowhere. I wonder why they even permit street side parking or accommodated CafeTO through this area this year.

    I would have banned street side parking and CafeTO on Queen Street from the Don River to Carlaw for the duration of these construction projects and diversions. I might allow for street side parking between 9pm and 5am but that’s it.

    Steve: What was quite striking was that they made a big deal out of supposed restrictions on Dundas Street to ensure the 501 diversion did not overwhelm the street, but did not address issues away from the core including the turns for diversions and how the three routes would co-exist on Broadview. It was quite obvious that this would be a bottleneck, but nothing was done to address it in advance. Moreover, some “early works” began on the underpass at Queen/Degrassi that throttled traffic even though the bridge work was not supposed to begin until after Gerrard reopened for streetcars. The claims of a well planned and co-ordinated set of projects ring a bit hollow when we see the actual execution.

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16. Steve, you mentioned how the traffic signaling industry does not want to address these issues. But this is only an Ontario issue, in many other. And smarter jurisdictions’ traffic management systems are state of the art. using sonar, and AI real time photo imagining to determine traffic flow, the type of traffic, number of pedestrians. And their predicted intentions. These systems can see traffic for about a km down the road and adjust accordingly. Even recognising buses and city vehicles to give them priority. So we are just using very dated tech with no sign of that changing.

    Steve: I suppose I was being unkind to the industry overall, but I so often bump into the “standard” methodology of fixed cycles with green time extension or reduction when transit vehicles are present, and not just for Toronto, Another troubling factor is the idea that “priority” would only be given to vehicles that are “late” in order to reduce the effect of transit on other road users. Transit should always get priority.

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17. The lack of work on St Clair at Caledonia has really been noticed! Just read through some of these comments and I have one reply to “Len Bick”:

    There is a transit priority *white bar* light that allows streetcars into the intersection safely when all traffic and pedestrians are supposed to be stopped. Operators just do not want to wait for it. There’s similar bars at Vaughan road both ways and the approach into Gunns Loop, as well as various points in the system. Transit priority has always been a problem with the City of Toronto though!

    Steve: The white bar “priority” signals in many places delay transit from making moves that they could safely do on regular greens for traffic. Many places that should have white bars don’t and this can delay service especially on diversions. Transit priority in Toronto means keeping transit vehicles out of the motorists’ way.

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18. Construction has been done on Coxwell for nearly a week and the 506 is still diverting up to Danforth. Any idea why this is happening or when it will stop? Normal streetcar service was supposed to resume west of Coxwell following the completion of the construction but the TTC has been completely silent.

    Steve: They like to let the concrete cure for a few weeks before resuming service. The last announcement was that later in July the 506 Carlton cars will start running to Coxwell-Queen Loop, and the 22 Coxwell bus will return on July 30. Bus service will remain on Upper Gerrard because work at Main Station will not finish until the end of August.

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