The TTC’s new route, 514 Cherry, is travelling incognito these days with blank destination signs on the CLRVs and with only a small route sign bound over the “Short Turn” marker.
Originally, these cars were supposed to be signed:
- 504 Parliament
- 504 Dufferin
in their east and westbound directions, but clearly someone decided that this was confusing. According to @ttchelps this is supposed to be a “temporary” arrangement pending the arrival of new streetcars on the 514. However, that won’t actually be completed until mid-2017 at best.
Meanwhile, would-be riders are left to wonder just where these cars are headed.
If someone approaches from the rear or side of the car, nothing is visible. From the front, one might spot the small sign “514 Distillery” but even this is meaningless for a westbound car. Meanwhile, the TTC suggests the 514 as a way to reach the CNE even though nothing on the cars suggests that the Dufferin Gates might be their destination.
This is a recipe for discouraging ridership, especially from riders unfamiliar with the route. Regulars on King will quickly learn what these cars really are – after all, the TTC messes around with service in this corridor on a regular basis and learning this week’s variation is a survival skill. Visitors, be they tourists from New York or North York, are quite another matter.
From the 2015 Customer Charter Goals:
We will provide the clearest, most accurate and up-to-date service information possible to our customers.
Alas, it is time for another round of asking readers to report problems with inadequate, incorrect or out of date signs on the TTC. For a system that prides itself on “Customer Service”, they have a long way to go.
Steve Munro 
Yes, I saw this last week and assumed that it was an operator error but then saw it more and more. One really does have to wonder who decides these things at the TTC and whether they ever travel on the TTC or even ask the operators (who must get questions).
I saw a similar situation at the VIA station in Ottawa a week or so ago. There, there is one bus stop for all the buses. The stop has the bus number and the destination but if one does not know Ottawa it is unclear which bus/direction will take you downtown. There were lots of questions for the drivers – one of whom said “‘they need a sign here saying which bus goes downtown’. Indeed!
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Why don’t they make new roll signs. Is it that complicated to make them? Can’t they just modify existing ones? Maybe with stickers? Or have a sign the operator can put on the dash…or hang out the window. What is the problem?!?
If they can’t be bothered to make new roll signs for a multi million dollar new line then what other things have they been avoiding doing on the old vehicles. How much of it is unknown and affecting safety or other critical systems.
Steve: The old sign shop at Hillcrest has been shut down for years now that all new vehicles have electronic displays. The 514 situation is supposed to be “temporary” (although that word has quite a variation depending on which Bombardier delivery schedule you believe), and so getting at least some cars updated isn’t a trivial job. Also, the TTC has never been good at assigning cars to specific routes, and the “Cherry” cars would probably end up on Carlton..
But the only new sign needed is “514 Distillery” or some such because “504 Dufferin” already exists. Of course, we know from CIS data that some 514s never make it that far west.
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When I worked as a supervisor in the City of Toronto’s communications branch, I assigned one staff member to spend about 60 per cent of his work life keeping up to date with signs for City Hall and other public buildings — a most thankless job due to ongoing renovations and the determination of city workers to put their own hand-made signs.
That said, though, the TTC has lots of instances when signs are either absent or unnecessary.
Take signs along 506 Carlton route… the TTC has done a mostly good job of using signs to communicate the fact that streetcars don’t operate overnight or on weekends and that buses operate along the entire route at other times. Lots of signs on poles for streetcar / bus stops. Large notices on the glass walls of transit shelters. And destination signs correctly read “506 Bay” warning passengers what the last streetcar stop is.
But why do signs and large notices appear on poles and in shelters at eastbound stops well beyond the construction zone (for example, as far east as Coxwell)?
Steve: This is an example of conflicting approaches to situations. By contrast:
1. Abandoned stops with transit shelters get a small paper notice mounted with scotch tape that quickly is gone, and is in any event not very visible. A large sign saying “This stop no longer in use” as well as removal of the route map would be a big help.
2. The 121/514/72 reorganization deserves lots of big signs, but gets nothing.
3. In many cases, partially replaced serviced have displayed the “normal” destination even though there might be a bus shuttle somewhere along the line. The philosophy was that people would not board, say, a car signed “Roncesvalles” if their destination was Dundas West Station, but only buses on the west end of the line went there.
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Unfortunately, this problem is bigger than just the 514. I have been witness to numerous ALRVs trolling around Queen Street with a blank white space instead of the route. They’ve got even less excuse than the 514s – why can the driver not roll up the correct exposure?
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How many years ago did the TTC switch its buses that used linens over to the electronic display destination signs? Of those that were, how long before they were sold or scraped?
Yet, the ALRV’s and CLRV’s were never switched over electronic signs. They remained as linens, by order of the accountants. Bet they scraped some of the buses with electronic display signs, yet continued using linens on the old streetcars.
I’ll bet you the rebuilt streetcars will continue to use linens, long after the new buses currently with electronic signs are scrapped.
Steve: I would not be surprised to find that the electronic signs would not fit in the CLRV/ALRVs. The narrow sign box is the reason we lost route names and wound up with “501” etc.
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A similar ‘customer service’ situation with the new 121 bus that is advertised to run from The Distillery to the Princes’ Gates and which the TTC says it is a good way to get to the Ex. At least yesterday the westbound ones were turning back at Fleet and Fort York Blvd ‘because there is too much traffic’. Result: Buses full of people going to the Ex were emptied out early, though drivers were offering transfers to the streetcars.
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Communications from the TTC are overall appalling. They really need to hire a professional technical communicator (I used to be one, not interested post-retirement!) who can find the words, the graphics, and the placement to get the messages across. Example: When a stop is temporarily out of service, the TTC covers the red/white/black signpost with a cardboard sign that is exactly the same shape and proportions and guess what, red/white/black. How NOT to draw attention to important information. Fluorescent orange, as in all the other city construction/detour signs? Not for the TTC!!
Steve: Oddly enough, they use this type of sign for the subway shuttle bus stops and associated information.
How about those scrolling LED destination signs on the new subway trains? The top 1/3 displays the next stop (statically), and is almost entirely obscured by the central handholds and security cams unless you’re positioned very close. Two-thirds of the sign real estate is blank (=wasted). Why not use huge scrolling letters, three times the height, so someone who can only see 1/6th of the width could still make out “North York Centre” or “Eglinton West”? And don’t get me started on the green/red/(possibly, um?) orange LED lamps on the trains’ route maps. Glance up when the train is stopped, pretending you’re a visitor, and you have no f**king idea which station you’re at unless a transfer line is flashing. (The excessively dark-tinted windows don’t help much either — it’s hard to read the wall signage on the platform through that dim filter.)
Let’s not forget the grammatical fingers-on-chalkboard PA announcements and the mealy-mouthed “power off situations” (power loss? power outage?) on Twitter.
Pathetic and amateurish communications, all round.
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Do the rear-end rollsigns even work anymore? I rarely see an accurate one.
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Most of the TTC system maps in bus shelters and subway stations were replaced a few weeks prior to the 121/514/72 reorganization and do not reflect that reorganization. Thus, the old routes continue to show on these large wall maps. Too bad that the TTC didn’t wait to post post-reorganization maps. There are exceptions; I did notice that the map at the Distillery Loop shows the post-reorganization routes.
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The font used on the new cars destination signs includes a ‘4’ that is confusing, especially as in ‘514’. In my opinion it is not readily readable. Route numbers not including a ‘4’ should be OK. Font change please!
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On Caribbean Carnival Sunday I went to Union Station to buy a MetroPass from the machine as the August MDP MetroPasses were not mailed. I waited at King and Spadina for a “Union” car. I was surprised when we were all kicked off at Queen’s Quay and Spadina. The next car came and it short turned as did the next one. Eventually a young man (a member of the public) told me that he heard on the radio that they were all to be short turned.
My inner 15 year old had his heart set on a “new streetcar” ride along Queen’s Quay and I was in no hurry. After several Harbourfront CLRVs, a Harbourfront Flexity came along. I went into the station, bought my pass and returned to the streetcar loop. The electric sign showed the next two arrivals for the Spadina Car, but the redshirted guide assured us all that the cars were not actually going to arrive. Apparently, because there were so many visitors to Toronto that weekend, the TTC decided to cancel the service on that segment of the Spadina line. I went and sat down and once again waited for a Flexity. Redshirt was practically apoplectic. I “had to” take a Harbourfront car – he explained again. By this time I was wondering why I had invested in a discretionary pass for a system that does not work and I admit I was getting a little grumpy. “It’s OK”, I assured the Redshirt, “I know where to go. I have been using the TTC since it actually worked”.
Eventually the Harbourfront Flexity reappeared and I got on. Instead of getting off at Bathurst, I decided to go on a “rail-fan ride” through the Exhibition loop in a “new streetcar”. However, the TTC had another little surprise up its sleeve. The Exhibition loop was closed and we all got kicked off at Fort York loop. Here there was a whole flock of Redshirts – all eager to usher everyone to the shuttle buses. There were several cars blocking the tracks – preventing me from safely crossing over to the other direction to get a Bathurst Car home. As I stood waiting for the cars to clear, the Redshirts became really upset telling me once again where I “had to” go. Eventually I crossed over and got a Bathurst Car homeward.
I have been riding the TTC for almost 50 years. I know the routes – where they all go and the workarounds when – as is so often the case lately – there are gaps in what is supposed to be scheduled. However, on that Sunday I saw incompetence at an incredible level.
1. Cars that didn’t go to where the destination sign said (Union and Exhibition)
2. No signs at Queens Quay Loop or Union Station explaining the service.
3. A whole route segment cancelled because we had lots of visitors. (This is the star!!!)
4. Next car electric sign still operating when the car is not coming.
I can’t imagine the impression that the TTC made on the tourists in town that weekend – in whose honour the TTC cancelled a whole route segment.
PS: I did see the explanation for showing destinations for places that a streetcar is not going earlier in this thread. It is so much better to be “lured” onto a car that says its going where you want to go – and then inexplicably get kicked off when the service gets to where it actually ends.
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Which begs the question whether it is really that hard to create a temporary exposure that you may only need for 3 years? I mean, it’s literally a case of filling in the blank.
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The wasted space and needless scrolling really bugs me. Particularly when there’s a long message that could be displayed across the entire screen like when approaching Bloor-Yonge station with the notice about a transfer point but they choose to have one small scrolling line and a large expanse of blank screen.
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Actually Steve the prototype ALRVs were able to use the flip dot signs like the fishbowls, classics, etc. 4900 was used to test them as seen here.
As per Transit Toronto, the thinking is the sign cavities were likely too small to hold an effective sign so they were never converted. Can you imagine an ALRV with a flip dot sign saying 505 Dundas via Dundas to Dundas west station?
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The TTC has apparently put in an order for new rollsigns for the streetcar fleet. They had been trying to hold off on doing this, but there are now so few spares (a couple of cars were running around with rear rolls in the front for a short while) that it was finally decided that something needed to be done.
These new signs will not only include the 514, but also the new Blue Night routes as well.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Steve: Thanks for the update.
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It’s bad enough TTC operators have a habit of not changing their display signs when at their terminal points as it is. Ok, 31 GREENWOOD is a short route; but it’s a bad habit and needs to be remedied.
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How many new streetcars are in service? Are they running on Bathurst for the CNE? What’s the status on 4401 and 4402? What’s the status of the TTC lawsuit against Bombardier incompetence? When is the next new streetcar expected?
Steve: There are 22 cars in service, with 4423 being the highest number so far. 4402 is in Thunder Bay. 4401 is still, I believe, still in Toronto. There is no update on the lawsuit as parties to such things do not conduct their affairs in public. The next car is due soon, but where it is exactly, I’m not sure.
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On Topic:
1) The corridor leading to the Union loop is a mess, just full of people, no division by 509 vs 510, spills onto the new Union south platform. They need signage at the head of the corridor since you can’t see the signage at the loop since the corridor is filled with people. One car arrives and you have to break a cordon and use the exit side of the corridor to actually get to the car, if most of the crowd wants the other car.
2) I find the maps in stations above the tracks very confusing when they put east on the left side. e.g. At St. George heading eastbound, the map shows Kennedy on the left, presumably since the train leaves to the left. Who cares whether the train is moving right-to-left? I’m underground. The first thing I notice about the map is that it shows an arrow to the left, so I would usually assume that the train is heading west. So those maps are worse than nothing. Map conventions matter, it would be nice if the TTC would consistently use its own conventions, and even more so, general conventions.
Eventually on-topic:
That beats my most recent ordeal. Last Friday afternoon I tried to get from QQ station to Spadina station, so my young kids could see what a modern streetcar trip is like, and pass through a Chinatown. We got as far as King and Spadina, with at least one 5 minute stop beforehand as the operator tried to fix the doors on the Flexity.
The operator informed us he was turning back to Union, no explanation why. We exited and walked up to the next car a block away. That one wasn’t moving, but at least the driver told us why: blocked by another car ahead that broke down while turning onto Queen. The driver tells us that cars will turn from Dundas north onto Spadina and continue from there.
So we try that, but at Dundas the only cars making that turn aren’t servicing the stops. Abandoning plans, I walk a block east on Dundas to catch the Parliament CLRV that is sitting west of the Spadina intersection. Well, that car isn’t moving either, another pedestrian informs me that TTC has suspended service on Dundas.
At no time did we really receive any reliable information. Streetcars don’t actually go where they say they do. I have found that this is a typical experience.
I don’t use the streetcars very often, but when I do, I only take them as a novelty. But upon reflection, choosing to take a streetcar is really a form of self-abuse.
1) Why are there no electronic signs at 509/510 stops that can display notices to riders on whatever screwup is currently going on?
2) Why can’t the TTC communicate reliably with streetcar drivers?
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I wonder if the new rollsigns will include 508, which hopefully will return sometime. Despite the erratic operation, there were definitely some regular riders. Imagine how many it might attract if it actually came on time — or even just came!
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I’m thinking this might have been the car that lost its pole turning on to Queen. I wonder how many of the recent and seemingly frequent incidents with overhead are because of the hybrid setup the TTC is using.
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Losing a pole is pretty commonplace event. It should not cause much of delay – in fact not noticeable against the general background of poor service. There are so many other “good” reasons why we wait forever for a streetcar – the lead player of which is “mixed traffic”. This is the TTC’s favourite excuse. It is little hard to fully understand that when two cars follow each other out of the loop – resulting in a full car and a wasted empty car – and big gap before the next full and empty car – that this is exactly caused by “mixed traffic” but the TTC says it is so. Who am I, an amateur railfan to disagree with the experts who run our system. Mixed traffic it is.
When a “new streetcar” fails at a basic task – pushing a disabled car out of the way – and paralyzing two routes for a whole day – it is obviously caused by debris on the tracks. Obviously it is not the TTC’s fault that this debris was there. It was washed in by recent rains. Rain is such an unexpected event. The fact that previous generations did not derail in rainstorms is not relevant. The fully tested “quick delivery” Bombardier Flexity is surely not to blame.
We have a lot of waiting to do for the transit we want. (Heck, how those Downtown Elites love to complain.) It’s not going to get any better. I would love to pay more property tax to provide efficient transit. Likely I won’t be allowed to do so by a Mayor who is acting in my interests.
Sorry if you don’t like the thought that this sounds angry. I am.
Steve: The incident at Queen and Spadina was not just a dewirement, but from the photos I saw, a case of the pole getting trapped in a frog and pulled out of the trolley base.
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What about wrong electronic signs appearing on Line 1 trains all the time.When the front car is signed Finch heading to Downsview and when front car signed Downsview is heading to Finch. Who is responsible at the TTC for getting such details right?
Steve: The operator can likely change the sign, but may well assume it was set up correctly leaving the carhouse. I have seen “wrong” destinations on BD trains too where a set has been turned.
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Are the electronic signs on the TR trains supposed to emulate the somewhat static cloth roll signs, or are they changed in unison to reflect where the train is going?
If it is the former, I could see the assumption that it was set correctly at the carhouse. If the latter, why are operators still acting like they are operating roll-sign equipped signs given that they should be used to operating the new trains by now.
Come to think of it, given that something on-board knows the direction of the train in order to operate the lights on the route maps, why is that information not applied to the display of the destination signs as well?
Hopefully, once CBTC is fully implemented on the line (either with just ATP or full ATC), the destination signs should be under the control of the train’s on-board system.
Steve: When the subway is running with a section closed down, the onboard maps show only the portion actually in service. This even happens on BD TR trains that are going out of service at the “wye” to return to Wilson Yard. Obviously the settings can be changed as needed.
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This is my favourite “clear” signage on the NW corner Bay and Front.
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