The City of Toronto will hold its first public consultations on the proposed Scarborough Subway Extension (SSE) starting on the coming weekend:
Date: Saturday, January 31, 2015
Time: 10:00 a.m. – 12:00 p.m.
Location: Jean Vanier Catholic
Secondary School, 959 Midland
Date: Monday, February 2, 2015
Time: 7:00 p.m. – 9:00 p.m.
Location: Scarborough Civic
Centre, 150 Borough Drive,
The primary function of initial meetings such as these is to make sure that what the staff proposes to do actually meets public expectations. In the old days of traditional Environmental Assessments, this was the most tedious part — establishing the Terms of Reference — in effect a study to define a study. That’s no longer part of the official scheme, but some prep work is required to validate the work plan. For the SSE, this is complicated by the desire to get everything done quickly and in parallel with other related studies.
When the SSE was approved by Council as an alternative to the LRT plan then on the table (and still, officially, the signed deal with Queen’s Park), the subway was the only game in town. Talk of significant improvements to GO Transit service in Markham, let alone frequent “SmartTrack” service at TTC fares in the Stouffville GO corridor, had not yet been added to the conversation.
In some ways, the study now getting underway reflects that isolated view of the project — so typical of much rapid transit planning — in that the focus is on one project. However, a parallel study by Metrolinx, the City and TTC will review a wider range of options including how the presence of GO corridor services might affect demand and travel patterns for the SSE. (See Planning for SmartTrack) Necessarily these studies will interact because the selection of a route and stations for the SSE will interact with plans for other rapid transit services.
This map shows the area covered by various studies including the GO network, SmartTrack, one of several possible versions of the Relief Line, even an extension of the Finch LRT southwest to the airport. Long-dormant Transit City LRT and BRT proposals are also shown, among other things from various wish lists.
A recent change in the scope of the SSE study has been to widen the study area eastward to Markham Road.
The purpose of this expansion is to allow the inclusion of potential subway corridors further east of the SmartTrack/GO corridor to discover how or if this might affect riding projections. When the subway was proposed, its projected demand stood much higher than the numbers previously cited for an LRT line. The reason for this, as it turned out, was that the demand model included many would-be riders from Markham who were funnelled into the north end of the new subway for want of any competing service. With GO/RER and SmartTrack, the network has changed a lot, and a subway line close to the GO corridor might not be such a good idea.
A flaw in this thinking is that if the “extra” riders come from the north, not from the east, then it does not really matter where the subway is located because it will only carry the “local” riders originating in Scarborough, not those from Markham.
In any event, there are now many, many possible “corridors” for the SSE on the table for preliminary comments by the public. All of them must address the need to link Kennedy Station, the Town Centre and Sheppard Avenue.
- The McCowan corridor — east from Kennedy Station via Eglinton, northeast on Danforth Road, north on McCowan to Sheppard — is the route approved by Council.
- The SRT1 corridor is the “Glen Murray” route touted by the former Transportation Minister as his preferred alternative. This would follow the existing SRT line to Scarborough Town Centre and terminate there.
- Several options turn north on Midland taking various routes to the north and east. The common purpose of this group is to avoid the need to re-orient Kennedy Station to point north rather than east.
- One option (SRT2) swings back west into the SRT corridor north of Eglinton.
- One option (M1) continues straight up Midland to the existing SRT corridor and thence eastward.
- One option (probably M2 although this may be a labelling error on the map) follows Midland to the Hydro corridor south of Lawrence, then turns northeast following this over to McCowan where it joins the McCowan alignment.
- All of the options that use the SRT east-west corridor through the Town Centre have an option for extension to the east and north with two possible routes to Sheppard Avenue, one via Markham Road, and the other via the alignment originally proposed for the LRT line.
- A Brimley option would run north from Eglinton, but would not use the existing SRT route through the Town Centre. Instead it would pass through STC diagonally to meet up with the McCowan route.
- Routes via Bellamy or Markham Road would approach the Town Centre area (actually McCowan and Progress) from the southeast. The exact route either of these would take is unclear and there is no obvious clear path back to McCowan from a more easterly route.
Some of these proposals will fall off the table fairly early for basic reasons such as constructability or availability of routes through already build-up areas. At this point, every conceivable scheme is included if only to establish why it should not be included in the short list.
Normally at this stage of a study, any attempt by the public to engage in discussions such as “where should the stations be” or “how much would this cost” would be rejected because these are normally design issues dealt with later in the process. The inability to engage on such details is a deeply frustrating part of the process. However, given the urgency of the project in the political realm, the hard line on what can or cannot be discussed at this stage will not be enforced. (This is an obvious and long-overdue change to transit project reviews generally, but that’s a story for another day.)
At a media briefing regarding the consultations, one question was pursued at some length: what happens if the alternatives such as a Markham Road alignment are substantially more expensive than the amount contemplated by Council when it approved the SSE? City staff were somewhat evasive on this topic as one might expect give the sensitivity of the question. The basic problem is that in launching the study, Council did not explicitly say “by the way, don’t propose anything that will go over budget”, and staff are now faced with some pressure to move the subway in order to gain more riders.
The process for eliminating potential options and dealing with high-cost alternatives appears to be that the project team would go to an executive steering committee from the City Manager’s Office and the TTC CEO. They would decide what to do and whether to involve Council in filtering the options. The problem here is that higher-cost options may stay in the mix longer, and there may be pressure to accommodate them within the dollar amount Council expects for the SSE project.
As I reported in an article about TTC fleet plans, the TTC is now showing the SSE’s fleet as coming from existing spare equipment (thanks to a surfeit of T1 trains on the BD line) rather than from new purchases. This would mean that the SSE budget lines for new cars and a carhouse to store them could be dropped, at least in the short term, only to reappear as a general requirement for greater system capacity in the mid 2020s. As an accounting measure this would allow a longer SSE to be built “within budget”. This is not a new trick in Scarborough — Queen’s Park did the same thing with the SRT to keep the base project “within budget”, and then pushed extra costs into a supplementary project.
That scenario may be a bit Machiavellian for the TTC, but I wouldn’t put it past any number of politicians to attempt a scheme like this.
The SSE study must report back later in 2015 given the need to nail down a specific subway proposal as part of a larger package of rapid transit schemes now under study. If the subway survives this process, detailed design would begin sometime in 2016 following provincial approval of the Transit Project Assessment (a mini EA), construction in 2018, and revenue service in 2023.
The LRT option is still on the table, technically, although unless the subway scheme goes completely off of the rails due to high cost or low potential demand, the LRT is unlikely to get a receptive hearing. Too much political capital, too much ego has been invested by “subway champions” for this project to be dropped unless it simply becomes unaffordable, even by Toronto standards.
Surely the 512 could at least be extended to Runnymede along with the proposed streetcar (504, 505, 507? …just pick one) extension along Dundas Street would replace the 40 Junction Bus.
There would even be room for a streetcar loop at the Walmart on the SW corner of Runnymede & St. Clair.
I’m only half joking though. The Junction bus and Runnymede buses date from days when that area was wholly industrial. Now that the Stock Yards have become residential and commercial land and The Junction is growing, there is some sense in bringing back a higher order of transit.
Steve: But I am not sure Runnymede should be a terminal just because it was once upon a time. The route structure in those parts is as you say a function of earlier days, not to mention the old City of Toronto boundary.
…and without any public consultation, after everyone thought the preferred design was final? I almost refuse to believe that they would be so short sighted and go forward with this.
The so called operating cost for the Sheppard line is approx. $.70 per ride as per a Steve Munro post years ago.
The Spadina/Vaughan extension subsidy at $ 10 million per year and say 50,000 riders per day is close to $.70 per rider plus or minus.
Maybe the fares on these lines should be bumped. If they are not bumped we all pay the subsidy.
I continually hear proposals to extend the Sheppard subway line eastward and even eastward to Downsview. I like this idea as it creates a loop, but it’s a very subsidized loop.
And Council approved the proposal, or maybe they didn’t … Hello Houston, we have a very serious problem.
I think one of the lessons needs to be to build lines for possible conversion, but start on the light end. Start with LRT, and convert if and when required. Build stations in such a way that they could be extended if required, and start to look at road designs to permit longer trains in median. We need to be constantly asking questions like: “Is that road that limits the train to 120 meters really required to cross, or can we direct the traffic to an adjoining roadway with a light already?” If we could ultimately protect the ability to run 180 or 210 meter LRT trains the argument for allowing future growth could be well answered.
A subway route via Eglinton and Markham Road to STC and Sheppard would very likely appeal to riders using buses along Eglinton to reach Kennedy Station but such a route is probably too expensive. The original subway extension plan does not support riders on Eglinton east of Kennedy.
Perhaps the $1.6 billion from property taxes and the federal government would be enough to build a 4 km subway extension along Eglinton from Kennedy to terminate at Markham Road with about 3-5 stations depending on cost. The provincial contribution would then be used to build the Scarborough LRT as originally planned. Thus, we could have 2 rapid transit lines for the price of the original Scarborough subway proposal and many more people would be served.
Perhaps an LRT or BRT along Eglinton would be a more appropriate choice, but I am assuming the some subway construction is politically mandatory somewhere in Scarborough. Note that extending the subway eastwards instead of northwards weakens the argument that the Scarborough LRT would be an unnecessary technology change and removes the threat that Smart Track would steal ridership from the Scarborough subway extension.
A very good point, and something that should apply to all route planning. Runnymede would work for the terminal of a hypothetical 512 extension given that it needs space for a loop (which would be hard to find further west unless they chose to use the parkette at Scarlett Rd). Extending a hypothetical Junction Streetcar from Dundas & Runnymede would be a bit more challenging given that there is very little going on along Dundas west of Runnymede except some dense residential at Scarlett and the TCHC townhouses overlooking the old Lambton streetcar loop. In any case it is a bit fanciful thinking for an unlikely project.
On the other hand, some good news … the Regional Relief Line study is about to begin its second phase (long list of options) in “a few weeks” (probably sometime in March). Jennifer Keesmat hinted at it last week and the website will be updated soon.
I look forward to seeing at least 9 Regional Relief corridor options … and seeing how they managed to work Smart Track into the planning between April 2014 and now.
Richard L seems to have a reasonable idea with sending a 3 stop subway to Markham/Kingston Road and Eglinton. This satisfies the Scarborough Subway demand and connects the B-D subway with Kingston buses, Lakeshore GO, Markham GO. It also only uses +/-$1.5B, leaving $2B for other projects.
However, I think the LRT along the SRT corridor will not fly because of the transfer — the main bone of contention from day 1. It would make more sense to have a branch of SmartTrack go to STC (and Centennial and Malvern). That nicely connects STC to the rest of Toronto. It also frees up the entire SRT corridor for GO.
Steve: That’s not as easy as it looks, especially at the service level a line out to Malvern will require.
I was a big supporter of connecting the SRT to a grade-separated ECLRT, however, I now realize the political shortfalls of the plan. A grade-separated ECLRT works very well with a DRL subway to Don Mills/Eglinton. Everyone who supported the on-street ECLRT is really saying they do not want a DRL (although some are still paying lip service to the opposite). Wynne does not want it because she wants to appeal to the swing ridings of the 905 instead. Tory does not want it because he wants SmartTrack instead. Other people have other reasons for wanting ECLRT on-street and not having a DRL. In this political reality, I think it better to put our efforts into using SmartTrack to connect STC to the downtown.
IMO the most effective solution to rectify this Political planning time bomb before & keep everyone happy would be:
1. Build a 2 stop subway extension from Kennedy to STC. (only other stop at Lawrence)
2. Let Tory build his SmartTrack
3. Build a complete BRT loop from Kennedy/Eglinton, to Kingston Rd to Lawrence then up Port Union and around Sheppard.
4. Build the BRT from STC to Pickering with stops at Centennial College & UTSC
1.The subway likely is never going away so this is the best compromise & will do wonders for Scarborough integration. Although at a cost..
2. Tory is going to push his Smart Track & unless a Ford is elected in 4 years it should keep moving forward
3. BRT’s would be sufficient & provide a solid secondary network through Scarborough’s perimeter. It would provide a much more efficient commute for local workers, as well commutes for all Torontonian’s to the main post secondary schools, & attractions (yes Scarborough has attractions – Zoo, Rouge Park, Closer to the Guild)
My question to Mr Tory and the Province would be, why would we not be discussing SmartTrack or subway. Could we not be looking at substantial subway improvements, and spending the Smarttrack money to create capacity for the subway network? Or do SmartTrack and arrange all so that there is high quality integration with surface transit (if that is possible) and have a significant increase in the frequency on GO with TTC fares on Lakeshore East as well. Let us be frank, subway with 2km+ stop spacing is in effect very high frequency commuter rail. What is require is service.
Yes, build the subway and screw SmartTrack if need be to save the subway. SmartTrack we will take as dessert but subway is the main entrée which MUST COME BEFORE DESSERT. Amen!
The simple question that needs to be asked is whether reaching Scarborough Town Centre is a/the priority for rapid transit in Scarborough. If Scarborough Town Centre is the priority then bus routes will continue to be gerrymandered to reach it. If the subway extends to the east end of Scarborough bus routes can be realigned to better fit with the road grid and speed up routes … but the tradeoff is that 1-seat bus trips to the subway may turn into a 2-seat trips.
I think that the question needs to be asked, where are people actually headed. Do we have a solid answer to the question of where are/would people be headed when they board those buses. As you have noted before all these bus routes head to through and around the STC, but how many people are headed there as a destination and how many are headed there to get elsewhere.
I am quite convinced that the subway is a political design, and the politics appear to be driving this project, and it would appear that there is a strong political need to connect the STC. I worry that questions surrounding good transit design are being ignored, and we will end with subway that should not have been in a less than optimal route even for subway.
Joe M Says:
Having the subway skip STC or not run up Markham Road would defy City building logic on a greater scale than what the Politicians have already accomplished in Scarborough.
The simplest fix to this issues is to extend a 2 stop line from Kennedy Station to STC & design BRT routes any other areas which should require local rapid transit. The residents would be content, Politicians would be “Champions”. And we can move on.
To me the goals should be better service to riders, and let the city building flow from that. Doing this properly should mean much better service, with similar operating costs. Running a large number of buses long distances when a proper route design and mode choice would have reduced the bus route length and crowding should be avoided. I do have to admit however, it would simply feel odd to run a subway around the STC.
Even when I look at it as an LRT solution, It is hard without highly resolved ridership origin and destination information, to resist the temptation to run a couple of LRTs to the STC and one from there. However, city planning with the proper data in hand (ridership, density, land use plans etc) should be allowed to propose a route that is free of the political considerations (and knee jerk reactions like mine) to propose and justify the logic of the route. I would like them to have resolved O-D information when they are doing so (beyond just planning districts into block level information) so that they can actually optimize the routes, however, a good job of planning for trip time minimization and best loading may result in some surprises. The STC was located based on highway, and is only a very small part of Scarborough. It is not clear that it should perforce be the center of the transit universe in Scarborough (especially given that it has already developed on a auto oriented land use basis), only that it should be well served.
While the outcome may be a surprise, when the layout is explained, if it has been done with the right information, it will be a pleasant one. This is my problem with the air being full of preconceptions and political not serviced based demands before the planning even starts.
You had to know it was inevitable: since Scarborough is getting a subway, Etobicoke deserves nothing less. According to an article in today’s Globe and Mail, councillor Giorgio Mammoliti would rather see nothing on Finch W than an LRT line. Apparently, only a subway along Sheppard W is good enough in light of the BD subway extension into Scarborough.
So you have a bunch of petty, parochial councillors climbing over one another’s backs to get something, however unwarranted, for their wards without any thought to how damaging their demands are for the City as a whole. If it didn’t lead to such waste, as in the current Sheppard subway, and inaction, as in the development of any higher order transit in Scarborough in recent years, you could laugh at this situation for the pathetic farce that it is.
Joe M Says:
That would certainly be another glaring epic fail in the history of Scarborough planning.
Any “proper data” used which leaves STC out of a main rapid transit line is not really good data. This high rise area would most likely become another slum in 20-30 years. If the public is not willing to invest in the future, neither will the private sector. Saying that I don’t see any plan which would not bring some form of Rapid Transit to this area of Scarborough.
Although nothing of any common sense will be easily achieved in Scarborough. Not only is that difficult to design a vision & plan in any City, it’s even more difficult in Scarborough as we are blessed with numerous non-Scarborough Municipal Councillors who are creating an extra layer of chaos & dysfunction
Currently there is still an ongoing cat fight between an inefficient LRT hack job promoted by outside Councillors vs. an inefficient Subway extension led by local Politicians playing off the spite and neglect of large areas within Scarborough. It’s likely going to get much worse as these next studies come to the table & more questions are raised.
Joe M says:
If the government is only going to fund plans that picks winners and losers & continues to leave many areas in the cold with public funds you will only see continued transit envy & more political hostility.
Finch W is a very HIGH priority candidate for rapid transit but is a completely separate issue to a Central Scarborough Subway extension which is going to provide assistance to a massive area of Toronto with multiple pockets left behind. Etobicoke & North York which have areas of neglect which should be considered a priorities but they also both have subways to their cores. Scarborough which is larger than both areas does not.
Saying that. Until we FUND a network that covers all of Toronto with some level of equity. This is what we’ll see.
On a side note:
Anyone else notice the Toronto Star’s all out political assault on the Scarborough Subway since the new Year. It’s one thing not to agree with the Subway its another to beat down a neglected area and offer no valuable input aside from opposition. Hard to move forward with this kind of media BS.
Peter S. says: I measured it on a map – Scarborough has more subway than Etobicoke. As well, Kennedy Station is quite centrally located in Scarborough, whereas Kipling Station is down at the one quarter mark in Etobicoke. Furthermore, Scarborough has the RT, but there is no such equivalent neither in North York or Etobicoke.
Peter S. says: No BS at all, the Star is being accurate and pragmatic. They point out that building LRT instead wasting it on subway would bring rapid transit to ten times more distance within Scarborough. Is this not valuable input? Is this not pro-Scarborough?
I believe that there was one called “Transit City” but it was destroyed by Ford
Since when has speaking the truth become BS?
Not using Hydro corridor for Scarborough subway is just wasting of money. Why should we waste a lot of money for tunneling when at grade or elevated subway cost much lower and even close to LRT? We should also consider a study for elevated subway for Sheppard East corridor.
Joe M. seems to believe that Etobicoke has a “core” and it happens to be slap-dab at Six Points (or maybe at some other station; it’s not clear). I invite him to actually come out to Etobicoke and see for himself the exciting amenities, glamorous street life, and opulent buildings of….oh, well, no, there is in fact no there there.
At the same time, Scarborough’s “core” miraculously exists wherever the “Scarborough Subway” ends up. Like on the “Yonge Street of Scarborough”, which sounds as exciting as the “Yonge Street of Mississauga”. (Hmm, wouldn’t it be Line 2 or Bloor-Danforth line anyway? Will Scarborough threated to secede unless the entire B-D is renamed the “Greater Scarborough Line”? We must give respect and dignity to Scarborough don’t you know?)
Oh, and transit envy works both ways Joe. My property taxes are paying for a political folly in Scarborough. Do we in Etobicoke not deserve the same respect and dignity that accrue to those in Scarborough? Maybe this is a hit why the “Scarborough” subway is not quite the slam-dunk that certain commentators seem to assume and hope for.
Yes the basic issue is that transit planning has become nothing but a political game. It was ridiculous to allow the Vaughan extension through as subway, to build Sheppard as subway. The city planners seem to have a decent handle on what the ridership will be, and yet we override the decision, and the politicians then inform the planners what the correct answer is. Lo and behold we see revised studies with adjustments to land use, that comes as close as the model can to the desired outcome. The original studies for Sheppard never came close to requiring subway, and Sheppard has delivered the ridership expected.
Let us learn our lesson (as voters) and understand that those that want to get re-elected are going to tell us what we want to hear (which rarely resembles the truth). Scarborough is still paying the price of political interference on the original RT project. LRT was a better choice then, but even if ICTS had been selected, if there had been no interference, the tunnel would have been larger and an allowance made for conversion, so at the very least Mark II cars could have been bought and added to the fleet.
The current ridership of the RT is a very busy bus route or a moderately busy streetcar route. While the stations are questionably located, the point has been repeatedly made, the bulk of ridership will come from the STC, so how do we leap from there (even including bus runs in parallel) to subway.
If I even begin to think about subway on Sheppard West one is not sure whether to laugh or cry. Sheppard East is better, but still does not even qualify as one of the top dozen bus routes.
Robert, the problem with Transit City is like that of the LRTs themselves. There is a complete failure in the ego boost area. You should clearly understand the subway (properly known as ERT “Egoboost Rail transit) is vastly superior in its ability to promote an area to the first rung among the boroughs, and it is really about which one has the most stops in it. Transit City was a political failure, because it was founded on the mistaken belief that transit is about serving riders and providing practical transportation.
Chow and Soknacki clearly failed to appreciate this all important aspect of transit, and Soknacki who in my mind was most clearly off base in this area, was decimated in the polls because he was .so terribly out of touch with the reality that government and transit policy are not about serving people but stroking ego. The mere discussion of ERT (subway) is so superior, that its discussion is preferable to the actual construction of lowly ego free LRT or especially lowly BRT.
Steve: I am waiting for someone in Barrie (or further north) to claim that GO Trains simply do not give their booming metropolis the global relevance it deserves.
Transit City was NOT FULLY FUNDED. And the 2 funded route were very inefficient & inconvenient. It was only fully funded & useful in the eyes of those who could care less about Scarborough transit & growth.
I use to live in Etobicoke. I’m also working on construction Projects in Etobicoke at the moment. I’m well aware of the quality of projects currently being build around the Subway lines compared to other areas.
I’m not here to fight against Etobicoke receiving more transit. If anything I’m supportive of fair continuing growth everywhere.
Also if you have read thru my posts prefer LRT/BRT if its a fully funded & effective plan. The Scarborough LRT route was not. The Sheppard LRT wasn’t even worth drawing on the map. The Subway will at least give Scarborough something it doesn’t have. Bearable TTC access into Metro and spur some decent development.
Because of Politics & hungry Media we are forced to be pitted against each other to fight for funds. Most of which are not even available. The Media is also likely missing out on good money without a crazy Ford as the Figurehead of the City. I expect they will likely continue to ramp up the divide narrative in hopes we can get a polarizing Mayor back in office to cash in.
So needless to say with what I read here & hear from the media & Politicians… I’m not expecting we will see any useful transit projects actually proceeding in a timely manner in this City.
How silly of me Malcolm not to realize this. Lastman had his ego line, Sheppard, but I wonder how he handled the fact it only ran with 4 car trains. He probably never rode it so it didn’t come to his attention. Perhaps we should see if Ferrari or Lamborghini make, or are willing to make, subway cars. Perhaps they could reach 250 km/h between stations and we could extend the Finch Subway to London via Kitchener. It would double as HRT.
@Robert I think Lastman has noticed you can see how sad his eyes are in those ads. It has clearly abbreviated his ego. If only the line had been 30k and 8 car trains think how those eyes would twinkle.
Well, I’m sure that Nuovo Transporto Viaggiatori would have no problem taking on a taxpayer firebombing project to convert their AGV’s into subway cars.
If we really want to be serious about planning a public transit network for Scarborough then there should not be any fear in questioning whether Scarborough Town Centre is the natural Centre of the Scarborough transit universe.
We already know that bus routes have been gerrymandered to reach STC since it is the end of rapid transit in Scarborough. Those bus routes can be rerouted if the Bloor Danforth extension were to run east to, say, Eglinton GO station. Service might even be faster and more direct.
I’m not saying that is the answer…I’m just wondering if we are asking the right question.
Joe M says:
Certainly no question should ever be off the table. It’s certainly worth taking a good look at because in the end some areas have to be left out using the funds available.
But … I could see the become another escalated political road block. I mean you can take stops away from Midland & Ellesmere (currently on the RT) and receive minor opposition But removing a rapid transit stop from possibly the most built up area in Scarborough will not go down without a fight from residents & politicians.
Other questions should be asked. Now that greater funding has been “secured”:
— Cost of a 2 stop subway to Lawrence Ave & STC with a BRT along Sheppard, down Port Union or Morningside, along Lawrence/Kingston rd & along Eglinton.
— Cost of a fully funded LRT network similar to the BRT route above.
If either of these options fall within budget, they should certainly be on the table.
Exactly. The more assertions we force before the planners start trying to optimize the harder it is to achieve a true optimum. I absolutely believe that the STC should be well served, and it is likely the natural center if we are to assume a hub spoke model (also not perforce clear). It needs to be well served, but let us please minimize the politically driven limits, the facts on the ground place enough limits. This is especially so, give that it will be hard to gain access to the few clear rights of way, because their current owners have reasons to limit the nature of their use.
I would be surprised if there was a system designed using real land planning and ridership data that did not place a high priority on STC service. I would not be surprised however, if it resulted in many bus routes being directed to other points of collection.
Moaz: it’s less about removing the stop at Scarborough Centre and more about asking seriously if Scarborough residents would be better served by multiple rapid transit lines that came closer to them (and they were able to get to faster).
Remember the subway extension is not going to serve Scarborough Town Centre, but will be somewhere north of Ellesmere at McCowan.
Moaz: That’s what I am curious about. I understand why people might disagree with the idea decreasing rapid transit service to Scarborough Centre … but if people have better, more direct access to rapid rail transit (via the a higher frequency Stouffville line, Scarborough subway on Eglinton and Sheppard East LRT … and possibly future quality bus/bus rapid transit on the streets) will they need to/want to go to Scarborough Town Centre?
There is a very detailed article in the Star today regarding an SRT “makeover” which, as i read it, is more of a rebuild. Can’t help but wonder if having a much more reliable SRT for the next 10 years will make some people reconsider their position on supporting the Scarborough subway. Could this be the first step in yet again changing the plans for transit in this area? We shall see I guess.
Steve: Until we get through the studies of alternative alignments and costs for the Scarborough Subway, as well as demand modelling for parallel GO/RER/ST and subway lines, the debate really cannot get seriously underway. At this point, I don’t think anything will derail the SSE barring a major cost increase, and even then, the “fix” would simply be to end at STC. Indeed, if the line goes up Markham Road and then swings back west, I foresee pressure to leave it facing west at STC for an eventual link to the existing Sheppard Subway.