This post has been created for the sole purpose of being a repository for a string of comments in the “Feeling Congested 2” article that got into increasingly farfetched schemes for regauging the TTC to standard gauge or conversely arguing that TTC gauge should spread throughout the GTHA and beyond.
This issue has been debated, if that is the word, at great length here to no discernible benefit — Metrolinx is building a standard gauge network, while TTC gauge remains on the Toronto streetcar and subway networks.
Comments on this post are closed. Any that attempt to sneak in on another thread will be deleted.
Steve Munro 
I await with interest your detailed analysis of the merits of different gauge choices for Metrolinx LRT, starting with a proposed design for the Pearson Airport interchange station and continuing with proposals for LRT lines extending to Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Markham, and Pickering. No doubt you will establish that it is inconceivable that anybody will ever want to interline freight with the LRT system anywhere (note: already proposed for Waterloo, admittedly not in the GTA) and that the ability to interline with the subway on Don Mills trumps the (slight) additional complexity of buying TTC-gauged vehicles for every LRT system in the GTHA.
If it is needed to run both subway and LRT on Don Mills, the way to do it is to put the subway underground and the LRT on the surface. This way expensive underground stations aren’t needed for every LRT station.
Using TTC gauge for Toronto LRT (and therefore by extension and by the same arguments for the rest of the GTHA) would be the tail wagging the dog.
LikeLike
@Isaac, thank you so much for responding. Glad that somebody is paying attention to what I said!
First, regarding the Eglinton and Sheppard stretch on Don Mills Road, I cannot imagine paying the cost of an underground here. What about crossing Highway 401?
I am agreeing with Steve regarding south of Eglinton, underground makes sense when the line has difficulty following the street or topography.
I was, of course, daydreaming about connecting the Sheppard subway with the Relief Line – two dead-ends connecting.
So, it would make sense to put either or both subway and LRT at street level. Except that they would have different gauges. Seems dumb to me to do so, except at same gauge.
Isaac, I do not understand your logic regarding interlining TTC vehicles onto rail tracks, or why municipalities outside Toronto need to conform to a TTC gauge. There are only a couple of dubious interlining TTC-rail opportunities within Toronto. Therefore, I do not understand Metrolinx’s logic of using non-TTC gauge on the LRT’s.
LikeLike
I observed once before that all the successful urban rail systems in Ontario use TTC gauge.
LikeLike
I assume this was before the O-train was built?
LikeLike
By default, standards should be used. For example, when installing an electrical outlet, one installs a standard duplex 110V 15A receptable, unless there is a specific reason why something else is needed. Similarly, when Waterloo Region was developing its LRT proposal, I’m not aware of gauge really being considered — of course it was going to be standard gauge. There has to be a specific reason to use a non-standard gauge and therefore vehicles with an additional customization. So arguing for standard gauge is unnecessary, unless there is an argument for non-standard gauge which needs to be evaluated for whether it is strong enough to justify actually building non-standard.
In Toronto, there are as you know two existing systems which use the same non-standard gauge. This provides a possible justification for building new lines to the same gauge. Indeed, this has been done: when the Harbourfront and Spadina streetcar lines were built (re-built in the case of Spadina), they were built to TTC gauge. Similarly, the Sheppard line was built to TTC gauge. This is because in both cases they are extensions to the existing systems using the same vehicles and even the same maintenance facilities.
The question concerns the Transit City lines. These are however quite different. They will use different vehicles from either of the existing two lines. They will cover a huge area of the city, and there is already a plan for them to extend outside of the city (to Pearson airport, although the actual construction plans have been cut back so that is an “eventually” plan rather than a funded and scheduled plan). They need their own maintenance and storage facilities.
Now, what is the argument for using TTC gauge on Transit City? In the past we’ve heard “compatibility with the streetcar system”, and you’ve also suggested “compatibility with the subway system”. For the record I think interlining with the subway is probably a non-starter — that’s heavy and light rail on the same track, and also I wonder about the ability of light rail vehicles to physically clear the third rail that powers the subway trains, among other issues — so I won’t separately cover it, but I believe what I’m going to say about compatibility with the streetcars also covers compatibility with subway.
Opportunities for inlining with the streetcar are, however, limited. The existing streetcar system for the most part densely covers a small part of the inner city. Due to the differences in vehicles and in the nature of the lines (mostly on-street) it’s not clear the Transit City vehicles could really use the existing lines. Can you imagine one of those long vehicles traveling down King Street? So it’s hard to see how revenue service could share track. On the other hand, the new system has its own maintenance facilities, so the new vehicles cannot usefully use streetcar trackage to reach streetcar maintenance facilities. And due to geography, I don’t see how the streetcar trackage can help a Transit City vehicle reach its revenue trackage (deadheading). So I don’t see how non-revenue service could share track.
So what we have is a weak argument that Transit City vehicles maybe sometime could somehow use streetcar trackage for something (and maybe there is a reverse argument that streetcars could maybe sometime somehow use Transit City trackage).
Steve: In fact, the Transit City vehicles could not operate on the streetcar lines because their specs are for a “standard” Flexity regarding curves, switches, etc. “Legacy” TTC versions of the cars could operate over Transit City trackage, but the only proposed example of this was for St. Clair 512 cars to run from Black Creek Carhouse via Eglinton and Jane to the proposed extension of the St. Clair car. Neither the Jane LRT nor the St. Clair extension are likely to be built in the near future, and so the operation of St. Clair will have to be handled from the existing system. At some distant date when the new streetcar fleet outstrips the capacities of the three carhouses, there is always the possibility of changing part of Hillcrest into an operating yard since a goodly chunk of Harvey Shops will be redundant after all streetcar maintenance moves to Leslie Barns.
On the other hand, it’s reasonable to apply the same argument to service across the border of Toronto. In the future, can we really rule out a Sheppard LRT that extends to Pickering? Eglinton to the Airport and past, into Mississauga? Service to Brampton, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham? A forced transfer at the border of Toronto may not be the best service design. And remember the vehicles on both sides of this line are the same kind.
In conclusion, I see three choices:
1) Use TTC gauge for all light rail in the GTHA area;
2) Use TTC gauge inside Toronto and standard outside;
3) Use TTC gauge for streetcars and subways in Toronto and standard for all light rail (excluding streetcars)
I’m arguing for (3). I think you’re arguing for (2). I think I saw somebody else arguing for (1) at some point. I consider (2) to be confused — compatibility across the streetcar/TC line matters, but compatibility across the Toronto border does not. And I hope it’s clear to everybody that (1) using a non-standard gauge across a huge swathe of Southern Ontario really is the tail wagging the dog — because of a tiny existing system that one can probably walk around in one day, we’re going to use a non-standard gauge everywhere from Hamilton to Pickering and eventually beyond.
And remember, sometimes it is helpful to share track with heavy rail, as is already proposed in Waterloo. So even if the incremental cost of buying and using vehicles with TTC gauge wheels were zero, there would be another reason not to use non-standard gauge over such a wide area.
One final comment: I would suggest that a decision to follow a standard is somewhat privileged and has a presumption of being reasonable in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary. So calling a decision to follow a standard a “screw-up” (rather than just disagreeing with it) should require unmistakable and irrefutable evidence that taking a non-standard choice is indisputably and obviously better.
Steve: This issue has been beaten to death here before, and we are long past changing the decision. I see no problem with the Transit City network being run on standard gauge while the streetcar and subway networks remain TTC gauge. There are more important issues to debate such as whether and when we will actually see the LRT network expand both in Toronto and elsewhere.
LikeLike
If you limit it to light rail/street car then five of the North American systems that survived were broad gauge, Toronto, Philadelphia, Philadelphia Suburban, Pittsburgh and New Orleans; with Boston, Newark, San Francisco, Cleveland (Shaker Heights) as standard gauge. Broad gauge seems to be an advantage but I doubt that is quantifiable.
Steve: Just to make life interesting, the Norristown line in Philly is standard gauge as it was part of the Philadelphia & Western Railroad.
LikeLike
Perhaps you should consult an electrical engineer, I know of 2 who are close to you. The last time 110 V was standard was in the early 50s. It has been increased in step until it has reached the current value of 125 V, + or – a couple of volts, usually minus. Also many of the standard receptacles are now 20 A, not 15. They are the ones with the extra sideways slot off the larger pin. Standards are not meant to be unchangeable.
Since there is no way Transport Canada is going to let LRT and mainline freight operate on the same tracks, then using the same gauge loses any advantage. If any rail line is taken over the tracks are going to need upgrading, if just for the ground return connection. Building the surrounding LRT to standard gauge means that it will be impossible to interline any of the legacy cars with the new system. In Toronto the standard gauge for rail transit, not commuter rail, is 4′ 10 7/8″ not 4′ 8 1/2″. The standard gauge for most rail lines in Asia used to be 1 m. New lines are being built to broader gauge because it has many advantages that are worth the problems of having 2 different gauges. I doubt that we ever will see a set of LRT lines built that will make it possible to run one LRT vehicle from Toronto to Hamilton or Kitchener, but it would make a lot of sense to have run St. Clair out of the car house on Eglinton instead of Leslie.
I think I read somewhere that Ottawa’s cars will run of 1500 VDC. This will make them non standard for most LRT lines which run off 750 VDC. They will never be able to swap cars with any other system in Ontario. I have been googling for this item but I cannot seem to find it again so I maybe blowing smoke out of my ears.
Actually the Kennedy and Milliken stations on Stouffville, Port Union and Eglinton on Lakeshore East, Weston on Kitchener, Kipling on Milton make fairly decent connections for closeness. Long Branch is not too bad and I think they are going to rebuild and make it better. True there are some that are not the best but don’t blame the TTC. Their lines were there before GO built its stations to cater to the car.
LikeLike
Yes, I should have said 120V, although I’m interested to hear that it is actually inching higher than that. Oddly, I don’t think I would ever give 220V as the voltage for a stove or dryer — so in my mind somehow 110V × 2 = 240V. In any case, my numbers being a bit out of date doesn’t change my point.
Now, and this really is heading out into crazyland, your point about the voltage gradually rising suggests an interesting approach to TTC gauge: narrow it by a few millimetres at every track rebuild. Then after about 20 rebuilds or so (more than 100 but less than 1000 years) TTC gauge will be the same as standard.
Steve: There is the small problem that the cars need to be regauged as well. Also, the cycle time for the entire network is well over 20 years, not to mention the diversion tracks which are done every 40+. Intersections should be a lot of fun.
This is a completely bonkers idea.
Already provided for in the O-train infrastructure, and planned for actual use in Waterloo, subject to a minor quibble that the trackage in question is not really “mainline”. To be clear, this is with time separation, but time separation or no, the gauge has to match unless the idea is to install gauntlet track everywhere.
I admit that Kitchener is a bit out of the way, but I will be very surprised if we do not see continuous LRT (not necessarily seamless) from Pickering to Hamilton. Even Kitchener would get included if interurbans again became economically valuable, which I think is a “maybe” depending on a lot of technological and economic factors.
As for St. Clair, the solution to your observation is to convert it to a full Transit City line, including re-gauging. This could be done with essentially no additional impact by doing it at the next rebuild — simply rebuild to standard gauge instead of TTC gauge. And the way things are going, I think the rest of Transit City might get built around the time St. Clair is up for rebuild anyway. Note that this does not apply to the rest of the streetcar system except for Lakeshore West of Roncesvalles because re-gauging a single line would mess up carhouse moves, diversions, and other special circumstances.
Steve: You do realize that St. Clair won’t be rebuilt for at least 20 years, and the intent at that point would be only to take out the top layer — the track — but not the ties including their TTC gauge mounts for the rail.
This thread really is getting out of control and is miles away from the discussion of “Feeling Congested”. I plan to create another thread to hold the track gauge comments, transfer all of them to that thread, and close it.
Any future track gauge ramblings will be deleted. It was a point worth debating a few years ago, but no more.
LikeLike