Updated March 25, 2013 at 1:50pm: The TTC has advised me that 4402 has been unloaded at Hillcrest and is now in the shops for inspection and testing.
Thanks to reader NickL who included a link in a recent comment to a photo of car 4402 on a flatcar coming to Toronto. The photo is by Eric May on the Railpictures.ca website.
Car 4401 remains in Thunder Bay as Bombardier’s test car.
Steve Munro 
4401 is in Ottawa having air chamber testing.
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Talking about new Flexity models arriving, I sure would like to see one of these models, but in the new TTC colours.
That’s model as in HO models.
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There was a brief “clip” (favourite 20-second sound bite) on CP24 this morning (25th of March 2013) suggesting,that StClairW ROW will have to be adjusted for new LFs. Do you know anything about it?
Steve: The platforms are not at a uniform height to mate with the handicapped access ramp. This is a minor fix which the Sun turned into an anti-St. Clair rant, and the CBC blindly picked up. The specs for the platform height were not known when they were built.
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Where in Ottawa is 4401 being air chamber tested, at the NRC at Uplands?
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Does this mean that the rail spur at Hillcrest has finally been restored? I suspect it would have been noticed had it travelled by truck from Etobicoke (more or less) in the night.
Steve: Yes.
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I’m surprised to hear that the streetcar will not fit on the platforms at St. Clair according to this CBC.ca segment.
Steve: This is NOT true. Thank you Toronto Sun for bad initial reporting, and CBC for further fouling up the message. The problem is with uneven platform heights, not with the cars “fitting” on the platforms. This is not a major retrofit. The CBC article errs in showing a picture of the curb between the right-of-way and the auto lane, not the loading platform, and by repeating the inaccurate claim that the project escalated to $100m when this was thanks to scope creep and utility work unrelated to the TTC part of the project.
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I agree that it is bad reporting but I can understand that people might be concerned … whether or not those concerns are completely overblown or not.
The CBC Toronto segment had Byford saying that $58 million had been set aside. The reporter also said that they have to retrofit Spadina and Roncy … so I really don’t know what to say … except $58 million (if that is the correct amount) for a retrofit sounds like a lot of money relative to the cost of the original project … and having to do work on 3 lines makes it sound like a big problem
Like it or not Byford is going to have to deal with these negative perceptions of the TTC … and the people who are actively feeding those perceptions. Hopefully he’s armed with the right information and ready to ‘do battle’.
Cheers, Moaz
Steve: I will be asking the TTC for details on the breakdown of that $58m. There is more involved than realigning a short portion of transit platforms and making 700 curb cuts. TTC needs to justify this number.
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As an example of the differences in how a story can be reported (or dare I say, spun) see this article in The Star.
Cheers, Moaz
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$58 Million! How about giving the people of St.Clair a break? Leave this work go for a few years. It will be a long time before all the new cars are delivered. They could first be assigned to other routes.
Steve: That $58m is for a lot more than fixing the islands on St. Clair. If you saw the work on the Spadina islands last year, only a short chunk of the concrete was broken out and replaced at the correct level for the new cars. If the TTC cannot get this work done in one schedule period (six weeks), then they deserve to be called on it, but this is not work on anywhere near the scale of the original construction.
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Hey, that toy streetcar is cool. Where can I buy one?
Steve: I will leave this question here for readers to ponder.
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Is there a chance that the ROW platforms would work with level boarding on these new streetcars? Maybe the gap is a little wide but if they are to do some modification, they can factor it in?
Steve: It’s not the gap, but the height. The platform must be low enough that when the ramp extends out from the car it does not strike the platform, but so low that the gradient faced by someone trying to use the ramp is too steep. Also, for the few places where there are old style, narrow safety islands, these must be replaced with wider islands (and associated changes to road lanes) to give wheelchairs and scooters enough turning room. Bathurst & King southbound has a new style island, but there are still some of the old ones scattered around the city.
There is a similar issue with the curb cuts for wheelchairs at regular stops. The grade has to be gentle enough for someone to wheel up from the road surface to the sidewalk, but the depression this requires must not present a safety hazard for pedestrians. In some locations it may be necessary to extend the sidewalk into the roadway to get enough length for the ramp. As a comparison, think of the way intersection corners are now designed for accessibility as compared to the much shorter ramps at curb cuts for driveways.
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Adam Giambrone on Metro Morning this morning gave an interview defending the new streetcars that, to my ears, wasn’t helpful.
And what on earth is Adam Vaughan up to? Keeping the old streetcars because the new ones are too big?
Steve: This ties into the debate about whether larger cars should be replacing existing cars on a 1:1 vehicle basis, or 1:1 capacity basis. If the TTC goes entirely with the capacity view, then the new cars won’t improve service in terms of crowding, and the wider headways will combine with line mismanagement to make wider gaps. If they go entirely with a vehicle replacement, then capacity will be doubled, and that is almost certainly more than is needed even on the busiest routes like King and Spadina. The TTC’s fleet plan, which I have discussed in a few posts, has varying degrees of replacement lying between the two extremes for each route. Whether they actually implement this remains to be seen.
Some of what Adam Giambrone had to say was not entirely accurate, but I am not going into a line-by-line review here.
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I too have been hearing new about “problems” with the new streetcars and loading platforms and noted the front page of the Sun with its usual tirade on waste of taxpayer money. It seems St Clair will continue to the be the “poster child” for why we should build subways. As if feeling left out, now councillor Adam Vaughan has decided to chime in without much forethought, this time stating the new streetcars are too big! Which leaves me to ponder how 75ft ALRVs were okay for Queen but 100ft LFLRVs are too big? Wasn’t the whole point of getting these new cars to improve accessibility and increase capacity (although the latter may be in question if the frequency of service is reduced).
I guessing at some point we will see daylight testing of these new LFLRVs?
Phil
Steve: Daylight testing will occur, I suspect, once the TTC is sure that it can take the cars out and not risk interrupting service thanks to problems with track (some intersections are old, and a few curves are already off limits to CLRVs, never mind new equipment), and overhead (both the suspension system and the size of the contact wire are changing to suit pantograph operation and the higher current draw through a single point of contact for a car twice the size of a CLRV or PCC).
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In my part of the suburbs, any sidewalk that has no boulevard between it and the street has a ramp for every driveway, so the sidewalk goes up and down and up and down and…. Often pedestrians will walk in the roadway rather than deal with the uneven sidewalk. Fortunately streetcar stops will be further apart, and a lot of them are by street corners. However, the extra length of the new streetcars may require curb cuts further back along the street to let wheelchairs board. Which door(s) are the accessible/wheelchair ones?
Steve: The ramp is at the second set of doors in the second section of the car.
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This is one of those situations where Byford should have quoted two prices … one for ticket machines, and one for curb fixes …
The TTC needs to learn to break out costs so that people understand what is being purchased … if 90% of the cost of the project is work being done by Ontario Hydro, let’s say the project cost is going to be 10 million instead of 100 million …
Steve: I agree and will be pressing the TTC to give a breakdown of the costs and type of work to be done. This entire project has too much of a sense of scope and cost creep because money for long-overdue system upgrades has been salted away in various departments’ capital budgets.
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I thought the two-Adams were on board long ago. First Giambrone’s statement with a not-so-helpful spin and then what the heck is Adam Vaughan up to? What an incredibly weird statement…”new ones are too big?” What is that?
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Wouldn’t a lot of that be for the power and data supply for the new ticket vending machines at many stops? Does it include the ticket vending machines themselves? (some more questions TTC should answer!)
Steve: There is supposed to be a separate $17m for the ticket machines as part of the Presto project.
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At locations where island protection is not present, the wheelchair ramp will presumably extend further to contact the roadway surface. I wonder how long it will be until the first collision occurs between a disobedient motorist and the wheelchair ramp. Perhaps they are designed with some sort of deliberate weak point to mitigate damage to the rest of the car as the ramp gets torn away. (hopefully not with someone on it!!)
Steve: As I said in a previous reply, there are two ways to handle this. Either the ramp extends back into the sidewalk area if there is room enough, or the sidewalk is extended into the roadway with a “bulb out” to enclose the ramp probably as part of a widened waiting area.
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I was a bit involved with the Roncesvalles Renewed project that included extending the platforms out to the streetcars and making them long enough for the four-door configuration (along with many other street improvements). At the time, a couple of us asked about platform height and compatibility. The platforms were built after the order for the new streetcars was made.
If the Roncesvalles platforms need to be adjusted, it would seem a shame that the design wasn’t thoroughly planned. As Mike Holmes says, “Make it right the first time.”
Steve: I have heard conflicting reports about whether the platforms on Ronces are affected by the height problem or not. Until the TTC does a review of all its stops with platforms, we won’t know for sure.
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The National Post has some breakdown of the costs.
Steve: Yes, I have seen this info in a few places, but would like to get a breakdown of the $58-million specifically related to platforms and stops. This seems rather high for the type of work that has been described so far.
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So let’s take a typical stop for example such as the stop at Queen and Sumach. Presently, there is no provision (nor is there likely room for) a median stop island. During rush hour, no parking is permitted on street to permit traffic flow in both lanes. This scenario repeats itself (for discussion’s sake) approximately every 200m, and constitutes the bulk of streetcar stops on King, Queen, Dundas and College.
Am I to understand it that a ‘bulb out’ is to be constructed from the sidewalk out towards the streetcar lane (similar to Roncesvalles, but with traffic in lieu of the bike lane) and a pronounced curb separating two through lanes of traffic? I am having difficulty envisioning this scenario, which if both through traffic in the right lane and a level surface for ramp deployment are both to be maintained, sounds potentially problematic. Are there any photographs of this arrangement on the ‘net?
Steve: First off, there would be no provision for autos to cross through the “bulb out”. What we are more likely to see is an arrangement that makes the street effectively one lane wide. This is only possible where parking is permitted and the curb lane would not be open anyhow, as on Ronces. The situation varies from place to place around the city. Major stops such as at Yonge or University would never see this type of arrangement.
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Since the city and the police do not seem to have the stomach to enforce no parking at the best of time then perhaps it would be best to put in bump outs at all stops that do not have an island. This would stop motorists from passing stopped street cars while discourage traffic.
Another question, there are presumably going to be be ticket vending machines for those who do not have presto to allow them to obtain a valid fare, preferably for a fixed time period. Are these machines in the $58 million dollars?
Steve: No. There is a separate $17m budget for this work.
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Steve said: The platforms are not at a uniform height to mate with the [retractable?] handicapped access ramp.
I was expecting that the retractable ramp would not be needed at platforms much like at subway stations. I was looking at photos of a CLRV stopped at a Roncesvalles platform. It seemed that the lowest step of the middle doors was roughly level with the platform but that the gap seemed wider than for a subway platform. It seems unfortunate if one needs to deploy a ramp at a platform. Wouldn’t the operator have to leave the cab?
Steve: No. “Roughly level” and “level” are not the same thing, and whichever is higher, it doesn’t take much to make it impossible for a wheelchair to pass as a one-person move (ie without tipping the chair to get over the change in level).
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Steve said: There is supposed to be a separate $17m for the ticket machines as part of the Presto project.
But is that for the cost of the machines or does it include the installation work?
Steve: Both, I believe.
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You know, the Coxwell-Lakeshore alignment is suddenly looking very appealing. Costs grow in spur track to Leslie Barns.
Steve: There are many things about both the selection of the Leslie Barns site and then the connection route to Queen that do not sit well with me. The city managed to transfer a good chunk of money to the Port Authority for a piece of otherwise worthless land which was then cleaned up at the TTC’s expense. Then the route via Leslie was rammed through with all alternatives played down because of cost or perceived problems, only for us to find that there were many conflicting utilities on that route. The TTC is blaming the city for not providing the information, but it’s hard to believe that at least rough location information was not on existing utility maps.
This is one more black eye the eye the new streetcar project has to take through no fault of its own.
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Forty-some years ago, the Turbo train was built to travel between Montreal and Toronto. Montreal had high platforms; Toronto had low. The Turbo floor was in between. The train had a set of steps or something that went up in Montreal and down in Toronto.
Steve: But there were still steps, and the height difference was substantial.
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So then isn’t this a similar problem to what the TR cars encounters once in revenue service? On some platforms they were level, on others there was a minor difference that for those in wheelchairs made boarding difficult/impossible?
Steve: The TRs have automatic levellers that should bring the car to the correct height for the platforms. The streetcars do not. Either way, this presumes a consistent platform height at all stops.
That said, could the TTC not have predicted this by simply measuring the height from concrete to door level in other cities which have the Flexity? I believe Andy Byford mentioned something about 150mm, but is that the curb height required? If so, wouldn’t this have been known about and planned for during the construction of any islands, post-Flexity order?
Steve: Possibly, but it would not surprise me if there is some variation in the platforms “as built” because there is nothing that required them to be exactly “xxx” millimeters high until the new cars came along. Don’t forget that all of Spadina and almost all of St. Clair had been built before the specs for the new cars were known.
Steve, you also mentioned that there are a few curves off-limits to all streetcars. Where are they, and what’s the reason (damaged rail, angles too sharp, etc)?
Steve: Worn switches and rails that cause derailments. West to north at Queen and Broadview has been out of service for close to a year, although the intersection is to be rebuilt sometime in 2013 at which point the curve should be available again. It will be interesting to see how they make out with a test run to Russell Carhouse where the ladder track on Eastern Avenue has tight compound curves (both horizontal and vertical) into the carhouse tracks. This ladder is to be completely rebuild and regraded in 2013.
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Steve,
Your replies to several messages seem to indicate that all stops will be at an island (or the equivalent).
Steve: No, not at all. However, there has been talk of adapting some stops with bulb-outs like on Roncesvalles where this is feasible from a traffic point of view.
As I understood it, the ramps would extend to reach the road level at those stops that are not at an island such as those on King just south of Roncesvalles. I seem to recall the final acceptance of the new car being delayed for a significant period because the ‘full length’ ramps, as originally designed, were too weak and therefore unsafe. Or at least that was the buzz at the time, although I don’t recall seeing any official documentation of this.
Steve: I heard the same rumours, and the whole idea of a ramp that must extend out that far from the carbody certainly is challenging. It will be interesting to see how this works in practice. One point worth remembering is that accessibility requirements in Europe are not as stringent as in North America and so “standard” designs don’t transfer across the pond.
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I don’t see the distinction. The TTC has a project to get the new streetcars running. This is part of it. Another part of such a project should be the PR as to what the additional expenses entail.
If this is not the “fault” of the new streetcar project, what on earth’s fault is it?
It seems that the the mistakes the TTC made on the St. Clair project, including abysmal PR and transparency, are being repeated on the new streetcar project. Nothing has been learned.
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4400 did a run from Hillcrest last Saturday night along Bathurst and Queen to Russell Carhouse entering 7 track into the carhouse. No problems along the route or entering the carhouse (it did make the grade). As the yard was almost full there was only 1 track available to test going around the yard. 7 track houses the wheel lathe, and those tests went well. It stayed for the day and returned Sunday night.
Last week 4400 went to Roncesvalles Carhouse and the streetcar had no problems, including the S bend at the back of the yard. The raising/replacement of the Eastern ladder track will improve access, as 7 track is the easiest grade to enter. It will also improve safety for carhouse workers (traffic).
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This whole finger-pointing, bad reporting and under-costing/estimating is similar to military purchase of CF35 (or whatever number) that was recently discussed in Fed. parliament. How much was the real cost of an airplane and how much was needed for supplementary expenses — longer runways, new tools, hangars, fuel storage tanks, training? TTC is not new in this predicament and the method of under-representation is quite common in business world.
The result is that TTC has new vehicles, which will arrive gradually and will cost XXX$$$$ (and anti-street-car people are already upset about the cost). However before new vehicles will be fully operational, the network will need two new transformers (for Queen str. route), platforms will have to re-ground, vehicles will have to be tested, whole network will have to be re-wired for higher energy needs — and probably more. The folks at TTC should go on PR offensive and say it loud and clear that these supplementary expenses are common for all networks that use streetcars where a substantial change between vehicle generations is about to happen.
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4400 was at Russell last weekend and had no problems with getting up the wash track-number 5 but couldn’t fit through the washers due to different sizes-a simple fix and also made it onto the lathe track-number 7 where it spent the night. Sunday they went to Neville and had no problems. It had a couple of scratches but on the whole our TTC Instructors were very happy with its capabilities so far.
What amazed me the most is how quiet it is.
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I think someone needs to produce the map that was used on Leslie street for the estimates, and some examples of why the price couldn’t have been determined before hand.
For all I know, they are just looking at google maps and saying – ahhh … it should be about 1km, so let’s say 14 million dollars … or maybe the engineering department is giving them the wrong maps (or playing a hilarious joke on the TTC planners by giving them printed google maps).
This has happened way too many times (and by a huge margin of error) to be reasonable … perhaps there needs to be a review of the accuracy of these EA’s … does the engineering department sign off on it? Maybe there should be a rule that after the EA, any cost overruns should be charged to the department that owns them, rather than the project.
Steve: The TTC has issued a “Fact Sheet” about this project that explains how the total cost of the carhouse project has risen. I don’t find it very convincing that some costs such as soil remediation were not included in the site evaluations that led to Leslie’s selection. Rather than add my detailed arguments here, I will start a new article later today.
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Steve, you deputed on the connection track to Leslie Barns sometime last summer. Didn’t your deputation specifically pointed out the TTC’s omission of the cost of utility relocation associated with the Leslie Street option? And isn’t this now the story of the day?
Steve: I am going to write a separate article about this later today rather than getting into details in a comment thread.
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Looking forward to your article on the Leslie barn fiasco.
It’s one boondoggle after another at the TTC, most related to streetcars.
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So just how are they going to deal with the new streetcars in Broadview station?
I only take a streetcar all the way up to the station once or twice a month, and I hadn’t noticed this before. Arriving on a 504, there were already 2 CLRVs on the platform, and the third CLRV could only unload through the front door. I’m not sure what happens now when there’s an ALRV and a CLRV on the platform and a third CLRV arrives (I don’t tend to see two ALRVs following each other on Broadview).
So if there is a single new streetcar on the platform, a second car would only be able to unload through the first of the 4 doors, and also would be blocking the sidewalk and perhaps part of the roadway.
Presumably there has to be a lengthening of the platform somehow?
Steve: Nope. There is only room for one car at a time. This is a major problem given the extra time some cars take at terminals like Broadview where only one will fit in the loop at once.
When Broadview Loop was being redesigned, there was an option to extend the loop property east into the parking lot, but the TTC didn’t want to take that route as it would cost extra, and the local businesses (read the local Councillor, then Case Ootes) didn’t want to lose any parking spaces. A related problem is that the platform runs diagonally to match the station underneath, and going further east would make an impossible curve back out onto Erindale Ave.
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I suppose that the TTC will want to slow down any CLRV that is scheduled to run after a LFLRV.
Since the LFLRV will probably ‘eat up’ most of the waiting passengers it would leave any following CLRV with fewer passengers to carry and therefore, fewer stops to service … meaning it would probably run too fast and bunching would occur.
I suppose in the case of Broadview and Dundas West, the TTC would put LFLRVs on one route (probably 504?) and use CLRVs on the other.
Seeing a LFLRV running up and down Roncesvalles will be quite the sight.
Cheers, Moaz
Steve: Considering that the TTC has been unable to run a uniform assignment of cars for as long as I can remember (current example is the mix of CLRVs among service on the Queen car), I will not be surprised in the slightest to see CLRVs trying to carry LFLRV headways and getting hammered as a result.
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I went by the south end of Hillcrest yesterday to see the new unloading spur. Everything is nice and fresh with a platform extending along one side from the ramp. The ramp connects into the siding where the rail grinding train used to be parked and the refreshed overhead wire runs a bit past the end of the ramp. The customised delivery flatcar is currently parked there.
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Just a comment, they closed the Spadina Streetcar in June 2012 to make those adjustments and the line didn’t re-open up again until November 2012 (granted, they had to rebuild the intersection at Queen street as well).
Steve: There was also track replacement at the north end of the line including the portal at Spadina Station. Why this wasn’t done during the summer when the line was shut down is one of those mysteries of TTC scheduling.
The streetcars were supposed to be re-opened along Spadina all the way to Queens Quay on December 23, 2012, but there remains a pitiful stretch from Front street to Queens Quay that remains unfinished. They keep pushing the date back and now I think it’s sometime in May 2013. That’s almost a full year. They blamed the delays on bad weather, but an extra five months for bad weather???
Steve: As I have already published here, there were unexpected problems with the bridge structure discovered as part of the city’s work. This has nothing to do with the TTC, but their reopening was delayed.
I’ll admit it’s tough to compare the more extensive construction they’ve done on Spadina to an assumedly less extensive job of platform modification on St. Clair. But the TTC pathologically underestimates timelines and overlooks construction details (see the track laying on Leslie street that’s in the news right now).
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Re Leslie track, there needs to be a better way of explaining costs than just lumping together all of the public service costs into one project.
The fact that City agencies/depts often merge expenditures under one or the other budgets is not a scandal and actually can result in economies of scale (if done properly). However, while that may be perfectly understandable in reports written by engineers or project managers, it isn’t clearly understandable by the average joe, particularly when you’ve got the Toronto Sun trying its best to manufacture scandals as it desperately tries to identify itself as “investigative journalism.” Automatically labelling anything “over-budget” as “gravy” is easy, but often wrong because it implies there is no value received for the extra money spent.
Maybe spending an extra $90 million when the street is already dug up is worth it to get a brand new sewer under Leslie, maybe it isn’t. I don’t know whether the Leslie project is a justifiable expense or not, but I do know that the Sun made a science of misrepresenting almost everything about the St. Clair project, and I certainly won’t take their word for anything to do with the TTC. As with most of these “scandals,” I would like to have more factual information than a vague finger-pointing exercise before I make up my own mind about who’s zooming whom.
Let’s also remember that an EA is not meant to be a rigourous comparison of all costs and benefits as one would do in a business case analysis. It would require a level of detailed design which is costly to do for one option, let alone for all of them under consideration and would add considerably to the time to do the study. An EA is intended to compare the environmental impacts of various alternatives at a conceptual level of detail that allows the province to assess compliance with provincial environmental legislation. The expectation that the EA should provide the definitive business case for any project is unrealistic. The question really is whether the TTC’s and the City’s protocols for cost estimation meet normal project management standards for comparable projects (I don’t know), and whether it’s time to change the way these costs are reported to the public (I think so).
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