The City of Toronto’s consultations about transportation plans and financing continued on the evening of March 4, 2013, with a panel discussion at the St. Lawrence Centre. The 500-seat Jane Mallett Theatre was packed for the event, and had been sold out for several days in advance.
The participants were:
- Matt Galloway, host of CBC’s “Metro Morning”, as moderator
- Jennifer Keesmaat, Chief Planner of Toronto
- Larry Beasley, retired Chief Planner for Vancouver, keynote speaker
- Carol Wilding, president and CEO of the Toronto Board of Trade
- Councillor Peter Milczyn, chair of Toronto’s Planning & Growth Management Committee and member of the Toronto Transit Commission
- Councillor Michael Thompson, chair of Toronto’s Economic Development Committee
- John Howe, Vice-President, Investment Strategy and Project Evaluation at Metrolinx
The most newsworthy comments of the evening were a clear break by the two Councillors, both members of Mayor Ford’s Executive Committee, with the Mayor’s position on financing transit. Michael Thompson stated that getting rid of the Vehicle Registration Tax was “a mistake”, and Peter Milczyn stated that Council (by implication with or without the Mayor) would approve “a suite” of tools to generate the needed revenue.
The message that “the people are ahead of the politicians” on transit financing, first raised by Carol Wilding, was a consistent theme.
Updated Mar. 5, 2013 at 11:10 am:
Although Larry Beasley’s thesis was that Moscow was trapped in an inescapable hole caused by decades of inaction on transit investment, this information appears to be out of date. As one commenter here has noted, since the arrival of a new mayor and the availability of petrodollars, a lot has been happening. This can also be seen by a cursory trip around the internet looking at the Moscow system.
Yes, the hole they have to dig out of was very deep, but they’re trying. Toronto has not yet really acknowledged the effort needed not just to arrest the decline, but to make up for decades when transit wasn’t “important enough” beyond fighting over a vanity subway line or two.
Introduction
Jennifer Keesmaat led off with an introductory talk about the City’s review of its Official Plan and the critical issue of how to finance transit. As already reported here in a previous article, Phase 1 of the process runs to the end of March when staff will recommend to Council the tools that should be endorsed as part of the regional Metrolinx Investment Strategy. Phase 2 will follow with identification of priority projects and refinement of policies. Phase 3 will produce the recommended project list and link reduction of congestion to funding tools. All of this will take place, in theory, by the beginning of 2014.
Keesmaat is still touting the standard argument that reduction of congestion is the goal, but we have known ever since The Big Move was published by Metrolinx that the best we can hope for is to manage congestion and the effects of growth, not eliminate it. She also raised the question of goods movement and the role of the road network.
This is an undercurrent in many discussions, and could be a Trojan horse used by advocates of car-oriented projects. What is still missing is a recognition that the balance between roads, transit, cycling and pedestrians varies across the city, and the presence of a 16-lane expressway in one part of town does not imply that entire city should be bulldozed in the name of faster trucking. Indeed, the trucking needs vary from one area to another, and the densely developed residential and commercial areas do not have the same needs as an industrial park.
Keesmaat noted that Toronto has been successful in directing growth to areas identified in the Official Plan. That’s good as far as it goes, but this misses two key points. First, many of those areas would have grown anyhow whether the OP flagged them or not. Second, the OP may have identified transit corridors and hoped to sustain growth with new routes, but in fact Toronto has built little to support the premise that transit will be integral to the City’s growth. The most flagrant example is on the waterfront, but we also risk increased density on major corridors without a commitment to increased transit service or infrastructure. This inactivity feeds directly into public skepticism about new transit plans.
Keesmaat noted that growth should be directed, and land use should be organized to reduce the need for movement — be it commuting for work and education, or to leisure activities. However, changing existing land use and travel patterns on that scale takes a generation or more, and the established city is self-reinforcing. Downtown is and will remain downtown. Universities will not move to new locations to suit the convenience of transit planners or the aspirations of every municipality. Industrial uses will remain where they have good transportation, almost certainly road-oriented.
The Feeling Congested website has had over 10,000 hits and there have been 6,000 responses to its questionnaire. (The hit count seems rather low considering that a site like mine goes through that many in less than a week. The number may actually refer to unique visitors.) Keesmaat reported that feedback from consultations shows that people want a clear link between new revenue and actual building, and that improvement of the travel experience (for which read quality and quantity of service) must improve. The site remains open for responses until March 15.
Keesmaat concluded by saying that there is an “enormous appetite for tangible outcomes”, and that people want “more pleasure” in their everyday lives.
Keynote
Larry Beasley echoed the mood of the evening in saying that it’s about time we have this conversation, and then launched into a defense of land use planning as the best way to plan transit. Proximity is the best solution with diversity in choices of modes for movement. People will choose their travel mode trip by trip, but policies should encourage and support movement by walking, cycling, transit, goods movement and last by automobile. There will be less space for cars, but they won’t disappear. He lauded what Toronto has already done with its directed growth (see above), increased densities, strong transit ridership and high cost recovery (which Beasley sees as a mark of a health transit system, not of a skinflint collection of funding partners).
Toronto has a very different transportation problem than other North American cities, one that is harder to cope with, and Beasley calls this “the Moscow syndrome”. Beasley has worked in that city in its attempt to come to grips with rising transit demand and strangling congestion, but Moscow faces the result of 20 years during which nothing was invested in the system after the fall of the Soviet system. The transit network has very high daily ridership, the urban structure encourages walking and transit trips, but things are coming apart at the seams. A trip to the airport takes three hours in traffic, and crowd control measures are needed on the transit system. There is not enough money for any projects, and governments have been in a collective denial about the scope of the problem.
There are universal truths — transportation needs cannot be sustained just on automobiles. Auto investment leads to increased use, and in Moscow’s economic climate, to exponential growth. Failure to invest leads to a decline in transit’s attractiveness and falling riding, and the longer this persists, the harder it is to catch up. Moscow planners have no idea how to get control of the situation. The dysfunctional network makes the city less competitive and economic development incentives don’t work because they cannot overcome fundamental transportation problems.
Moscow offers a lesson to Toronto. We are not as far down this path, but the symptoms are there for anyone to see. Moscow’s experience confirms that this is not about choosing one funding source, but all that are available. The debate will be over timing and ordering of new revenues (some are easier to implement both organizationally and politically), what Beasley called a “choreography of spending”.
There are basic consumer trends that must be recognized:
- People have a high expectation of what they will consume, that they have a good experience, and that service (in this case) transit must be there. Who provides it is secondary to its actually existing.
- People are fed up with government’s loss of control.
- People will avoid what they don’t have to pay for, but will pay for what they want.
- People will pay up front if they have a guarantee of delivery at the promised quality.
- People will always compare new costs with what they face now and will regard new transit spending (at a presumed $600/person/year) as “not that big a deal”.
- People want to be involved in the decisions.
Beasley had a set of recommendations for Toronto:
- We must go further to get integrated planning across the region and across transportation modes.
- Citizens must be involved for widespread understanding and acceptance of plans.
- There must be an air tight guarantee of directed spending, and a citizens’ “bill of rights” for mobility.
- Key decisions should be made directly by the electorate. Direct democracy is messy and should be saved for fundamental issues. There needs to be advocacy for new plans including information on the effect of doing nothing or of various approaches to balance between modes. Trust in the wisdom of the people and engage them in the debate.
Beasley noted that extra charges could be used to discourage unwanted practices, while discounts could be used as incentives for desired behaviours. He then undercut his own thesis by proposing that the wealthy could buy the right to park and this revenue could be used to subsidize transit for the needy. Density bonusing could be formally on sale with extra revenues going to fund transit investment.
Well, no. If parking is bad, it does not matter whether you can buy your way to paradise. As for density, if your Official Plan says that an area should grow at a certain density, then buying your way out of that constraint makes the “planning” irrelevant. Moreover, fast turnover of land near new transit lines is not guaranteed as we have seen in Toronto. This is not just a question of bad planning by Toronto (look at the long-dormant “Etobicoke Centre” at the six points, or the lack of development around the Spadina subway), but of the basic fact that “the market” builds where there is a demand and a profit to be made.
Toronto must plot out a pro-active strategy and plan for growth or we will not stay as an “A-league city”. Toronto has to pay for what it needs. There may be some money in budgetary savings and “waste”, but this is nowhere near enough. New money is needed, and Toronto should borrow now against future revenue to deliver improvements quickly. Get on with the job, and flag anyone who stalls the process and the cost of delay.
The Panel Discussion
Matt Galloway directed a series of questions to the panel.
To Carol Wilding: What has the Board of Trade been doing? Public engagement has been ongoing for over a year, and the public, including the business community, is ahead of the politicians who may be unwilling to seize the issue. People are fed up with policy “zigzags”, constant changes of direction, and there is a real sophistication in understanding issues and costs. Galloway replied that polls show that huge numbers of people don’t know what is going on with planning. Wilding observed that there is a “range of understanding” but people are ready for decisions.
To John Howe: Nobody knows what The Big Move is. Metrolinx is a young agency, only five years old, but they have an integrated plan. What is needed is a better communications job, and a desire to think and act as a region. Galloway again: but many don’t know about this. Howe: we are building already and we need to sell what we are doing.
At this point I must offer an observation of my own. Metrolinx repeatedly trots out the $16-billion in projects now underway as an example that “things are happening”. The problem is that the majority of this money has not yet been spent and there is some concern whether the first tier of projects will all be built, or at least funded from general revenues as originally announced, thanks to ongoing deferral of actual spending by Queen’s Park. As for the individual projects, a great deal of this is out of sight to most people.
- The Spadina subway extension, a project launched before Metrolinx even existed, has major construction effects on the areas through which it passes, but is otherwise of little concern to most of the GTHA.
- The Eglinton LRT project has not progressed beyond construction of the access pit at Black Creek Drive.
- Construction at Union Station is a constant reminder for GO Transit riders and for people who work or travel near Front and Bay, but is unknown beyond there.
- Work on the Union Pearson Express affects those along the corridor, but few others.
- Work on busways in Mississauga and in York Region similarly affects the immediate vicinity of the works, but nobody else.
The GTHA is a big place, and if we were to draw a map showing where work is actually underway and visible, there would be a lot of white space.
To Jennifer Keesmaat: The same issue — a large number of people don’t know what’s going on. The City’s consultation rounds are intended to get the message out, and talk about the City’s role and its future. Movement must be refined around pedestrians, cycling and transit. Toronto is part of a regional framework, but this won’t necessarily mesh with the City’s plans. Toronto is already a large region on its own crushed under the weight of its amalgamation.
To Carol Wilding: What about a “Toronto first” outlook? Wilding’s definition is much broader than borders. She agrees with Keesmaat that there is a micro conversation about the City of Toronto and active transportation, but there are also discussions around the region.
To John Howe: How does Toronto thrive in this context? Howe feels that for the region to work, there must be a strong Toronto. However, there are 6.6m people in the region and travel across regional boundaries is common. This misses the whole point that we are supposed to be encouraging local demand, but recogizes that regional demand isn’t going away soon.
Jennifer Keesmaat observed that creating places to live in Hamilton while working in Toronto will cost a lot to support, and we will fail. We need local transit, closely spaced stations for easy access and neighbourhood hubs. A network designed around long-distance movement will not provide this.
Peter Milczyn felt that there is too much parochial talk about “fair shares” in any planning. He would like his constituents (in Etobicoke) to be able to move around the region into Brampton or Markham, say. Local land use should support good transit access and compact urban nodes. Toronto has done a bad job with nodes notably at subway stations. Metrolinx is a new agency — can/will they do better?
Michael Thompson wants to look at the region in its entirety. It takes someone three hours to get downtown from Malvern. We need to look at everyone’s needs and all of the transportation network. He remembers when the zone fare paid at Don Mills and Eglinton was eliminated, but also when stickers on transit vehicles proclaimed that they were funded by the Province of Ontario. How can we connect local neighbourhoods into the system. The public needs more say at both the local and regional levels.
Matt Galloway asked Thompson whether he would ask voters to support transit funding in the coming election. He replied that he is in favour of distance based fares, and that his constituents would pay this if only they can get service. What else beyond fares? A sales tax seems to be a very appropriate tool.
Peter Milczyn prevers a parking levy because this links bad land use to the cost of providing transportation.
Galloway: Is there the political will? Milczyn replied that the status quo isn’t working. How much of an obstruction is the Mayor? Milczyn calmly but forcefully replied that “Council will speak”. In the past administration [Miller], there was no linkage between new taxes (Land Transfer and Vehicle Registration taxes) and outcomes. Now that we are delivering on new transit investment, the debate will shift. Michael Thompson spoke of the need for leadership. This is not just about travel, but the loss of competitiveness in Toronto. The view that we can have affordable transit without paying for it no longer holds, but we must show people what they can have and make a realistic presentation of the options.
Galloway: How do you counter people who are opposed to the plans or the spending? Michael Thompson replied that at the end of the day, we have to look at the future of the city and make tough decisions. Does this mean something to people now? You can’t have it both ways — this is not realistic. Leadership requires that we let people know somebody has to pay for transit.
On the “choreography of spending”, Larry Beasley explained that some sources are easy to implement, some more painful. Road and bridge tolls faced stiff opposition in Vancouver. If you start with easier sources and build something, then there will be greater reception for additional revenue sources. We must be specific about phasing, project costs and the actual cost/person.
Carol Wilding agreed saying that the conversation is about the appetite for funding tools. Everybody has to sacrifice, and there are many examples of urban centres who have already done this.
Jennifer Keesmaat noted that bringing people into the conversation with good information and analysis yields benefits, builds trust and gives politicians information for discussions with their constituents. She reported a recent conversation with Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion who urged using the revenue tool cities already have — property taxes.
Matt Galloway asked John Howe about the issue of charging for parking at GO lots. Howe replied that Metrolinx must report by June 1 with a recommended set of tools for 25 years and beyond. We are one of the last urban regions without dedicated funding tools. Direct funding from governments doesn’t work any more as they are already “tapped out”. But what if parking charges drive people away from transit? People don’t want to feel that we are targeting just one segment for new revenue. A mix of user fees, “everybody pays” taxes such as sales tax, and beneficiary levies (such as development charges) are all needed. Moreover, we shouldn’t just build transit but also walking and parking for access.
Larry Beasley noted that good transit station integration with access to neighbourhoods are needed.
Peter Milczyn noted that when the TTC started to charge for parking, transit riding went up and parking use went down to the point that some property is now being redeveloped for housing right on the subway’s doorstep. If people don’t want to pay for parking, they won’t get anywhere fast by driving rather than by taking transit. What about pedestrians and cyclists? The city has a responsibility to provide infrastructure and space, and must also look after road improvements and maintenance.
What about the polarized conversation of roads versus transit? Michael Thompson felt that Toronto is “getting there” on this topic, but we will continue to be a car-friendly city for a long time. We rely on the auto industry for economic activity. Galloway: What does this have to do with getting around — if there are fewer cars there is more opportunity for better transit, cycling and public realm improvements. Thompson noted that autos won’t disappear overnight.
Larry Beasley pointed out that in 10 years, at most, automobiles will be “clean”, and the pollution argument will go away. The demand for personal mobility will continue to rise, and we need to manage cars more aggressively than ever. They are only one of the movement choices. Pedestrian and cycling facilities are too often “value engineered” out of projects, and these modes need to have a guaranteed source of funds. The focus is on transit because that’s where the big problem is seen.
John Howe noted that 25% of the proposed Next Wave revenue stream will go to local projects including active transportation. Jennifer Keesmaat replied that the challenge is where this 25% is used — for example there is no public realm budget for the Eglinton corridor — and that there is a gap between statements and the reality of what is planned. Who pays for what remains an issue (and by implication especially if Metrolinx downloads some aspects of transit projects into that local 25%). Keesmaat felt that money should be provided for a cross-city cycling track across Eglinton.
Should we put these questions to the public? Peter Milczyn wondered whether we have the time or the leadership for such a campaign. Los Angeles had a mayor as leader of the transit tax referendum, but Milczyn was unsure that Toronto has this leadership. We know what the problem is, what the solutions are, and there is the political will to proceed. The 2014 election will be the plebiscite. Larry Beasley felt that this audience was “the converted”, and these policies need a deep constituency. It’s basic democracy and a stronger way to build support. Michael Thompson agreed that consultation with residents is needed, but many of his constituents say “just act”. Carol Wilding said that from a business perspective, there is a need to consult, but businesses don’t want more and just want politicians to get on with the job. Anyone who says “I don’t like that” must be challenged for an alternative. Saying “I won’t pay” is not acceptable any more. What more incentive do we need beyond the $6-billion annual cost of congestion?
As a wrap up question, Matt Galloway asked what sign people who are not at this meeting will have that action is here. John Howe: We are building already, and this is the launching pad for the next wave of tools. Carol Wilding: The Board of Trade will come out with a narrow set of tools and a shift in focus to specifics from the general discussion. Peter Milczyn noted that the city’s consultation on revenue tools will come to Council for a decision soon.
Jennifer Keesmaat felt that the conversation should be “unending but evolving”, and without it we will miss a deep understanding among the public. We must hold politicians accountable. The conversation is very different from three years ago and we are now talking about how to pay for transit. A charter is needed setting out what the City of Toronto will commit to with new revenue tools, and we must build trust with the public.
Michael Thompson reiterated the need for leadership. This is a time to act. Although there is a lot of work in progress, the public doesn’t know about it and we must demonstrate what is going on. Where will this leadership come from? From the people and from Council.
Larry Beasley argued that if in three months everybody adopted the same citizens’ bill of rights for mobility that would give a guarantee that we will deliver to a common commitment.
Questions From the Floor
Will electric vehicles (unspecified) be included as a transportation mode. From Thompson and Milczyn, “yes”, although it is unclear just what this means.
The elephant in the room is Rob Ford. What will Council do to get “Ford Nation” to open their eyes that the Mayor’s hope for private funding with no new taxes won’t work. Peter Milczyn replied that Council will approve a transportation plan and a funding plan — there will be a majority in support. Michael Thompson said that the fact we (the Councillors) are here should send a strong message about support for this direction. Milczyn said that we have had a lot of drama that is entertaining, annoying and frustrating, but not much is slowing down. Thompson observed that there has been no response from the private sector on funding and this is not a reality. Part of the process will be to change the dialogue to realistic options.
A student from York University (who took only one hour to get downtown from the campus!) spoke as a suburbanite wanting to keep what they have. Does user pricing mean that we will segregate populations by tolls and distance-based transit fares? Where does local funding come in? Jennifer Keesmaat replied that The Big Move is looking region-wide, but we don’t want to create unintended consequences. When we look at projects for Toronto, there may be a gap with what Metrolinx is doing, and planners need to work with Council on filling that gap for specific projects. We must avoid the consequences of selective application of revenue tools across the region. John Howe felt that regional benefits should be “equitable” without explaining just how this would be measured given that spending in one location may benefit residents elsewhere.
In the GTA, there are 15,000 condos built each year representing a $40b investment over 10 years. The transit investments proposed are much smaller, relatively, than we are making this out to be. If the problem is $6b in lost economic activity, how do you solve this with only $2b in annual investment? Who will stand up and say this is not enough, let’s spend $40b in the next 10 years. Carol Wilding replied that we need to get the money, and a different suite of tools is needed to get more. She noted that Los Angeles tried to accelerate its multi-decade program. Do we need to be more ambitious? John Howe replied that we need to manage expectations. We are not going to eliminate congestion, only manage it to a reasonable level.
Toronto is seeing corridor development, but it should use buses, not surface rail. Users should pay through fares, and there should be higher gas tax. Carol Wilding replied that through consultations, the Board of Trade concluded that a combination of tools is needed. One “user pay” mechanism won’t get us where we are going.
The “weak mayor” system guarantees poor leadership and candidates. How do we get a discussion of this? Peter Milczyn replied that Council has all the discretion they need about how to spend. We have state of good repair and expansion issues, and these are better addressed on a regional basis than by individual municipalities. Michael Thompson warned that we must be careful what we wish for, that the “wrong person” could wind up in power. The Council system works, it is collegial, and members work through challenges. Thompson is not supportive of a “strong mayor” system.
Twenty-five percent of the city is paved (roads, parking lots). Should there be a progressive gas tax to penalize cars? Jennifer Keesmat replied that it makes sense that users pay. Peter Milczyn noted that in some jurisdictions, a vehicle tax is based on engine size. John Howe cautioned that gas tax is not a robust revenue source as consumption is falling as people switch to more efficient vehicles. This is not necessarily a long term tool.
Do politicians have to go against the oil industry to increase taxes on cars? Most folks would hate a toll, but if it is just added to their fuel bill it would be easier. Larry Beasley replied that gas tax is “a damn good idea” for the near future because it causes costs to the user and can shift demand. However, we should not fall into “one source” funding and need a robust bundle of tools.
A Vancouver study showed that the public subsidy of cars amounts to about $2,700 per car per year. Is there the political will to address these cost, and what will Council do to reinstate the Vehicle Registration Tax? Michael Thompson replied that it was “an absolute mistake” to remove the VRT. Many of his residents didn’t really mind paying it, but if asked “should we get rid of it” were more than happy for the savings. How will people be confident that there won’t be a future rollback of transit revenues as a tax cut? Thompson replied that given the need for better transportation and funding tools, this is something we must not do. The mistake won’t be made again “at least not by me”.
Peter Milczyn argued that there will be a suite of new levies, but these will be dedicated to transportation. The old VRT went into general revenue, an error of “the previous administration”, and that a general tax generates general discontent. People will accept a specific tax. (I could not help thinking that if this is the fig leaf needed to get Ford supporters to embrace a Miller era tax, so be it.)
There is a lack of cycling infrastructure. One quarter of the new revenue stream will go to local projects, but what proportion within this goes to active transportation? Jennifer Keesmaat replied that this is essential, and Peter Milczyn confirmed that this will be part of the overall Official Plan, and should be included in a mobility bill of rights.
What will be the effects of the new tools on those with lower incomes, and what guarantee is there that businesses will pay too? Jennifer Keesmaat replied that on a regional basis the city has a high business assessment and this is a risk flagged by the commercial real estate industry. However, Toronto has very low property taxes and has more room on this side. Carol Wilding noted that this is an issue in addition to the ongoing migration of employment lands to residential use. Businesses are ready to pay their share, and the key is to avoid too much distortion in the market.
Twenty five years ago, the same issues were being discussed at public meetings. The greatest concentration of development is downtown. What is being done about more capacity and the ability to get around? The Moscow syndrome is here already. People won’t come downtown because of congestion. John Howe replied that The Big Move has advanced the “relief line” for more access to downtown, the UPX will provide a direct link to the airport by 2015, and the passenger concourse for GO at Union Station will be expanded to three times its current size.
There are workers in skilled trades all over the city working on transit projects. They are having the same discussion about how to fund future projects and jobs. An educated workforce will support the politicians, and workers understand that they need to contribute to future jobs. By analogy to Los Angeles, will large infrastructure projects be used for job creation in “at risk” communities? Michael Thompson talked about the City of Toronto’s strategy to bring young people into the trades through public projects.
There is a lot of asking (consultation), but not a lot of telling (education) people about what is going on. Does Metrolinx have a plan to bring the public onside? John Howe talked about consultations now in progress including a residents reference panel. A public campaign through advertising will begin soon. Larry Beasley urged that education should not get lost in consultation.
Conclusion
The need for real movement on network planning and funding is beyond question except, possibly, to those misguided politicians who hate taxes and who prefer to play to those voters who can be sold a something-for-nothing view of the future.
What is needed is for politicians at City Hall and at Queen’s Park to focus on getting new revenue tools and credible plans in place rather than working on each other’s defeat.
Steve Munro 
@L.Wall
There are about 979,450 households in Toronto and 1.1 vehicles/household (circa 2006 census). That’s 1,077,395 private automobiles. Of just people living in Toronto. This doesn’t even include the vehicles coming from outside Toronto! You can do a lot better than raising $90 million/year in additional parking fees. As much as people bitch about parking fees in Toronto, parking fees for a city the density of Toronto are actually quite generous. And in the suburban areas (which makes up the majority of the Mega City), there is plenty of on-site parking offered for “free” to customers and employees. Not to mention the ample free curb-side parking on side streets. And you can park for free curb-side on main roads after 9pm. There is a lot of land real estate devoted to the temporary storage of cars for “free”. And it shouldn’t be offered for free (unless a private enterprise chooses to pass on their parking levies to all their customers instead of charging for parking specifically).
Parking comes at a price to society and should be monetized. Motorists are heavily subsidized to begin with so it’s only fair they pay their share. I would be OK with paying more for parking in exchange for faster traffic flow and fast public transit. And yes you wouldn’t be able to fund subways upfront with parking. But that’s what loans are for. You take out a loan and then you pay it off gradually in X amount of years (say 30 years). Most people don’t buy a house outright. They get a mortgage. And you pay off that mortgage with your steady income (in this case, the parking revenue).
You could make the case that motorists are just not willing to pay up what is necessary to build a comprehensive subway network. But they don’t want LRT either and they make up the majority of the city so I doubt that the LRTs are going to end up being built. My prediction is that nothing will get done and then Toronto’s population will see a depression, suburbanites will stop driving to Toronto (we are seeing this already to an extent. Most of my Mississauga peers don’t want to bother with Toronto anymore. The traffic congestion is too much hassle) and Toronto’s economy will shrink. The 110 minutes/day Metrolinx doomsday scenario won’t happen because the market forces will adapt and you’ll see an exodus of people and jobs from Toronto and eventually the surrounding 905. The housing prices, rent and auto insurance rates in the GTA are a joke anyway. Too much density here and no infrastructure (transportation, affordable housing) to support that density.
As for the short stop spacing on subways, that’s only for high-density areas. Bloor-Danforth has an average stop spacing of 873m. Yonge-University-Spadina 974m. Sheppard LRT average stop spacing is 460m! It’s basically quasi-local service to replace the Sheppard East bus. In that report the TTC released, apparently the average Sheppard East bus rider will save only 4 minutes with LRT. It seems to me that LRT is more about meeting growing capacity needs rather than delivering rapid transit. That 4 mins isn’t going to do you a whole lot of good if you are going downtown from Sheppard East. How is LRT going to take cars off the road when typically cars are used for longer-haul travels? “Oh wow Sheppard East is 4 mins faster, I’m going to leave my car at home now!” In the US it was found that most LRT riders were in fact displaced bus riders, not motorists/former motorists.
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Average stop spacing for a long line is a meaningless figure. For shorter lines, it is less likely to be wildly distorted (but not impossible).
If you get on the subway at Jane to head eastbound, your trip will not be anywhere near 873m. Your average will be around 650m, possibly less, unless you’re going to Main Street or Scarborough. The stops through Scarborough are over 2km apart, and distort the average for rest of the line (through Etobicoke, stations are around 1.5km apart). Same applies to the Yonge line north of Eglinton, where it’s 2km or so between stations, except for North York Centre. If you’re getting on at St Clair to head south, you’ll have a stop spacing around 650m again.
The line averages of 873m and 974m only apply to those getting on at the end of the line, but even then it is not mathematically true because the average spacing for a trip will vary with where a rider gets off. Hardly anybody rides the Bloor-Danforth line for its entire length, and absolutely nobody does so for the Yonge-University-Spadina line, making the average for the latter irrelevant. Most trips made on both lines have average distances between stations that are less than the average for the entire line.
Transit mode is supposed to be determined by capacity, not speed. The TTC’s mandate is to provide local transit service. Longer distance trips are better accommodated by GO Transit (off-peak schedule convenience issues notwithstanding).
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I think this is a good time to remember that the Yonge and Bloor-Danforth subways were originally built in order to provide a higher level of transit service, not just to appease motorists or reduce congestion.
Look at the frequency that MU sets were running on Bloor in the 40s and 1950s and the streetcars running on Yonge and parallel roads in the 30s and 40s … they built subways because there was no other option … the surface lines were maxed out and subways represented the next level of service.
Today we are in a similar situation … many surface corridors have reached a plateau and the only way to offer better service is to go to the next level of transit. The thing is, we are nowhere near near the end of the line for surface routes. We are not maxed out the way that Bloor and Yonge were.
So let’s drop the subways argument and the congestion argument and the appeasing motorists argument and just focus on building better transit because that is the only thing that can be backed up by both numbers and history.
So on highly travelled routes with multiple branches that means we move from buses to LRT. On very busy bus routes that means we add buses and make them longer, and ensure that service is reliable and frequent. Let’s fix the line management issues and improve the quality of the whole network.
It may not be the sexiest or most interesting option but it’s the one with the best chance of success.
Cheers, Moaz
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Ok so if the TTC is going to wash their hands of long-haul intra-416 transit and GO Transit (Metrolinx/Ontario Government) is washing their hands of intra-416 transit, how are people supposed to get around in the 416? By car. Bingo. And god forbid you can’t afford a car or can’t drive and you live in Malvern and work at McDonalds in downtown Toronto or (worse) Southern Etobicoke or something (people don’t necessarily have the luxury to get a job close to home in this economy. Scarborough Town Centre’s economy shrunk since 1986 ffs.)
I just read an article online about the World’s Best 30 Metro Rail Systems. They actually listed 32 rail systems. The TTC was not on the list! (surprise, surprise) Montreal and Chicago (which Toronto recently past as the 4th largest city in North America), however, made the list and they have a similar population density to Toronto. It’s not about “not enough density”. It’s about Toronto, Ontario and the federal government not wanting to foot the bill and being riddled with debt at the moment (aka footing the bill for the irresponsible financial policies of previous administrations).
Steve: As a starting point, I might mention that those “irresponsible financial policies” included tax cuts that prevented governments from funding infrastructure investment.
In line with the discussion here about station spacing, I can’t resist quoting the caption on the photo of the Paris Métro:
The systems shown fall, broadly speaking, into two groups. First are the brand new systems where governments chose to spend immense sums to create a transit network. The decisions may be economic (the value of moving more people around) or nationalistic (pride of having a system everyone else puts on their “top 30” list) or a combination of both. Second are the “legacy” systems such as Chicago, NYC, London where the core of the network was built a century or more ago. Cities that matured before the automobile had extensive networks. Even Los Angeles had a widespread network of streetcars and LRT that actually enabled the city’s sprawl to develop. LA is rebuilding some LRT and some subway depending on the character of each corridor. A subset of the “legacy” systems are those where a renaissance in spending has occurred such as Madrid and Moscow.
Without question, Toronto could have had a bigger network. What did it do instead? First any hope of building LRT was demolished by provincial interference with the technology scheme that eventually led to the SRT. A fetish for automated systems on elevated structures in the middle of narrow streets (there are artists’ renderings at places like Queen and Church) didn’t help their credibility, and the whole thing imploded because it was unable to achieve the promise of being “cheaper than subways”. The TTC was a subway-only shop despite the fact they had written an LRT plan in the 60s. With the limited funding available and the wars between pre-amalgamation politicians, not to mention changing fortunes at Queen’s Park, we got very little.
The Peterson government proposed several subway extensions in a bid to be seen as “doing something” about transit. Bob Rae defeated Peterson, but kept most of his plan as a job creation and economic stimulus package. This lasted long enough to get Sheppard underway, and preliminary work on Eglinton. Enter Mike Harris and Eglinton was killed off. Sheppard only survived as a sop to Mel Lastman so that he would support amalgamation. Many years later, McGuinty announced MoveOntario2020 with a long list of projects, most of which found their way into The Big Move. However, we are unlikely to see many of these actually funded and built in our lifetimes without sustained support for both the projects and for new funding tools.
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Moaz said:
The reason why Eglinton is getting a subway through Central Toronto is NOT for the same reasons why Yonge and Bloor-Danforth got subways. The peak volume on Eglinton isn’t anywhere near the peak volumes experienced on Yonge and Bloor-Danforth.
I should have been clear that I think Eglinton is getting a subway to appease the concerns of a lot of other non-transit-riding parties besides it being necessary for improved transit service. And I believe that that’s [a] legitimate reason.
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You should be asking for electric trains on our rail right of ways not super expensive subways through the lowest density parts of Toronto. A lot cheaper and the very wide stop spacing that you desire and 2-3 times faster than the subway.
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GO Transit is prohibitively expensive for the consumer though and this is something that the Ontario government and Metrolinx need to evaluate perhaps. You’re looking at paying $300+/month for public transit depending on where you travel within the 416. Say you commuted from Agincourt GO to Mimico GO every work day. It would cost $222.90/month for GO Transit (PRESTO would stop charging you after 40 trips). And you need the TTC Metropass ($128.50/month) for those feeder TTC buses. You’re looking at over $350/month.
That’s ridiculous when off-peak GO Train service is poor or non-existent, GO parking lots fill up early from what I’ve heard, GO trains are over-capacity and intra-416 is kinda tacked on and seen as an afterthought by GO Transit. If you can’t afford GO Transit, you’re stuck with just the TTC. Not much you can do there.
GO Transit has fare integration with Mississauga Transit (Miway) and some of the other GTA transit networks. Why not the TTC?
Steve: Because GO doesn’t want to risk its high cost recovery by having to subsidize TTC riders. In the 905, they justify the subsidy as a way to avoid building parking and to build ridership. GO is one of the worst offenders when it comes to thinking regionally about fares because the 416 is a big black hole in their service map.
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Transit costs money. However, if driving is one of the alternatives being considered, the assumption is that a car is available. A car costs money, too.
Everything is too low, in my opinion. Minimum wage is too low. Road usage fees are non-existant (except 407) and gas taxes come nowhere near paying for road upkeep. Transit fares are too low due to a lack of political courage to implement fare hikes on a fixed schedule to keep up with expenses. TTC should probably be fifty cents higher than it is now, and the TTC would still easily be value for money compared to its neighbouring properties (which currently charge more than TTC while providing lower service levels). However, minimum wage needs to rise with cost of living in order to accommodate that.
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A car is a money pit. But there are lots of people in Toronto and the GTA (something like 15.5% of Mississauga residents take public transit to work and if you look at the statistics, there is clearly a class division there where the poor take the bus, the middle-class and above drive) who can’t afford a car anyway because the private auto insurance companies are given free-reign by every political party to fleece us in the GTA (the NDP and Green Party have no interest in challenging them). $350+/month is a lot of money to be spending on transit when someone is making $1,640/month before taxes ($10.25/hr * 40hrs/wk * 4 weeks). More than 20% of before-tax income. Employers are only required by law to provide unpaid 2 weeks vacation (or 4% in lieu of). And I believe that rule applies for statutory holidays (~10 work days) as well? So not everyone gets 50-52 weeks pay per year. At any rate, still not much more if you are paid 52 weeks.
In a socialist society like the ones you see in Europe, they see public transportation as a basic necessity that should be provided by society to everyone. Just like health care and education. That’s why public transit is more heavily subsidized there even in the face of mounting debt. Ontario, on the other hand, doesn’t hold these values. Or at least not to the same extent. Most people here think that if you can’t afford a car or transit fare, you are too lazy to work towards a better job and don’t deserve subsidized public transit, minimum wage hikes, etc. But at the end of the day we need people working in the low-level service sector to prepare our fast food and coffee, serve us at restaurants, etc and they need a way to get to work (they may not be hiring locally where they live). Not everyone can be an engineer, doctor or a rich entrepreneur and live the American Dream. The American Dream, ironically, is more achieveable in socialist Europe than the United States. Imagine that.
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It’s also important to note that sometimes you need something that is “in between” local transit and commuter transit. You need to have three levels of public transit service: local, rapid, commuter. For eg. My 20 km work commute to my Brampton office from Mississauga (I also have a Mississauga office that is about 8km from me) isn’t suited to either local or commuter transit. If I were to take transit to get to my Brampton office, I’d have to travel 6.2 km eastbound with my first bus (Eglinton), then transfer and travel 4.4km northbound on the Mississauga bus (Dixie), transfer again and travel a further 9km northbound with the Brampton bus. It’s a 1 hour 9 min commute by transit. 47 mins busing (25 kph), 11 mins walking to stops/destination, 11 mins waiting (for 2 transfers). An auto commute taking HWY 410 takes me about 20-25 mins in the morning, 25-30 mins in the afternoon because I go the off-peak direction.
But what if you don’t drive? Then what? You’re screwed. I pay $2,600+/year for auto insurance, I’m over 25 and I haven’t made one auto insurance claim or had any speeding tickets/road infractions yet *knocks on wood*. People who can’t afford auto insurance need viable alternatives. When I was still in school, I couldn’t afford a car. I took the bus (this is why I feel downtown leftist intellectuals are out of touch. I lived the suburban transit commuter reality in a very auto-dependent world. They don’t. People in the 416 burbs and 905 are rightfully pissed. My work prospects, standard of living, quality of life and social life improved dramatically after I could afford car ownership. And I would never look back because buses in the 905 and 416 burbs are a symbol of class segregation. Glorified streetcars will be the same). There is no commuter rail option for my Brampton work commute. And the commuter bus option is a joke. Feeder bus to the Mississauga City Centre (south-east direction), GO Bus up to a station in Brampton, then a feeder Brampton bus after. What’s the point of taking such a roundabout non-direct route? No time savings at all, more expensive, sometimes taking longer than using the direct local transit options.
If Mississauga and Brampton offered harmonized services along shared corridors, it would shave off a transfer. And if they had 1 km stop-spacing (major intersections only) instead of <400m/stop, it would be a lot faster for me since I live 550m/7 mins from the nearest major intersection. Some people are even more isolated from major intersections. This is what local service is for). People who live further out from a major intersection could take the local service or use the local to transfer to an express. Local service actually tends to speed up after express service is introduced. Less boardings on the local service means more time saved.
Steve: Your point about the need for better local service in the 905 does not negate the value of LRT lines on corridors where the demand will justify them. If your attitude is that transit is a form of segregation, if only in the perception of would-be riders, it will not matter what we run, they will never use it. Mississauga will never, ever have a subway line, and even if it did, there’s a very good chance it could not possibly serve the wide variety of trips that people want to make without, wait for it, an extensive surface bus feeder-distributor network just like we have in Toronto.
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The problem caused by patterns of suburban office park development is not one that can be solved by or with transit, rapid or otherwise. At best it is an ineffective treatment of the symptoms, an obscenely costly one at that.
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Chris said:
Chris, how far into Brampton is your office? If Hurontario was an option for you, the BtZum 502 or MiExpress 103 woukd take you quickly from Hurontario and Eglinton up to Shopper’s World-Brampton Gateway … if you took the 502 it would go as far as Sandalwood Parkway.
Chris said:
MiWay and BT already have harmonized the services on Hurontario and Dixie … with additional express buses on Hurontario.
Putting a MiExpress and Zum route on Dixie would help a lot, since Dixie is a very busy corridor. It will be interesting to see if MiWay and BT could do that this fall when the Dixie BRT station opens … run a MiExpress route from Long Branch to Steeles, and a BT Zum route from Eglinton up to Bramalea city centre.
I agree that perhaps there should be a Peel Region Transit but unlike YRT and DRTs ancestor bus companies which used contractors, BT and Mi Way are city divisions. Presumably the situation is similar in Halton which still has 3 cities with their own separate transit systems rather than a single HRT service.
Cheers, Moaz
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@Chris
I agree we need some high-speed regional service across town. What I don’t agree with is that this regional line has to be under Eglinton.
I don’t understand why high-speed advocates insist on the more expensive alignment, when there’s a parallel rail corridor that can serve regional needs at a fraction of the cost. Why isn’t Metrolinx taking a harder look at upgrading the Agincourt-crosstown corridor?
Steve: This would be an expensive upgrade as the corridor is constrained, it runs through residential areas, and it is CPR’s main east-west route across Toronto. Then comes the question of where exactly people travelling east-west begin and end their journeys, and how the CPR line would fit into this.
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@LWall
Suburban city planning doesn’t lend itself well to public transit usage. Yes. This is why 460m/stop spacing for LRT in suburbs is absurd. I’m not saying kill local service in favour of rapid service. I’m saying supplement it. LRT on Sheppard East, Finch West, Eglinton and the Scarborough RT replacement/extension should have a stop on every arterial intersection. Roughly ~1 km/stop. And then retain local bus service to fill in the gaps. You can’t have Yonge/College to Union-esque stop spacing on a suburban corridor. Downtown Toronto is more dense so you don’t need to travel as far to get to where you need to go. So more localized-service is more important than speed.
As things stand now, the Sheppard East LRT from Meadowvale to Don Mills would take 40 mins, running at 22 kph according to Metrolinx. About 28 stops (that would be more like 500m/stop but I could have sworn I read 460m/stop in another Metrolinx report. They probably don’t have the stop list set in stone yet). Currently, the Scarborough East bus runs that route in 48 mins (53 stops). So you’re looking at 8 minutes savings max (22 kph vs 18.625 kph).
@Moaz
It’s located at Bramalea City Centre. Queen St (what’s known as HWY 7 to York Region)/Dixie. There is no MiExpress/BT ZUM Dixie bus to take up there. Eglinton would be a good candidate for MiExpress as well. The problem is that Mississauga is barely doing anything with MiExpress. Brampton is doing more with ZUM at least.
And Mississauga/Brampton transit isn’t really harmonized on Dixie. You have to transfer from the Mississauga Dixie bus to a Brampton Dixie bus to get to Bramalea City Centre and there’s no Brampton Dixie buses running down here. On Hurontario, you’re covered pretty much if you live anywhere between City Centre and Sandalwood Parkway.
Subways are a pipe dream for Mississauga and Brampton. But the least they could do is expand their MiExpress and ZUM service.
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Don’t forget the crosstown CPR corridor is not public infrastructure, and never has been. I find this is often unacknowledged.
Steve: There is a widespread problem with folks who draw lines on maps but don’t know what is actually available on the ground. This extends to many professionals.
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@Chris
Since you work at Bramalea City Centre on Queen Street at Dixie, I’m surprised that taking the Zum 502 bus up Hurontario to Queen and the Zum 501 over to Dixie is not an option. I guess you have to balance faster, limited-stop service on Hurontario and Queen against lower traffic levels and fewer traffic lights on Eglinton and Dixie.
MiWay and BT haven’t fully harmonized service in Dixie (with overlapping express bus routes like on Hurontario) but they are pretty close.
I believe that a little gentle nudging would bring them even closer. After all, besides Hurontario, Dixie is the only other major north-south corridor that connects Brampton and Mississauga AND 3 GO stations AND has a mix of residential, commercial and industrial uses.
MiWay’s 5 Dixie also uses artic buses for both branches. Methinks that, with the Mississauga BRT opening 4 stations (including Dixie) this fall, it is time for a MiExpress 105 on Dixie (Long Branch to Steeles), overlapping with a Zum route running from the BRT at Eglinton running up to the terminal at Bovaird.
That would be something for Minister Murray to work on facilitating … especially since the BRT connection would bring Brampton/Bramalea residents closer to the subway … and hopefully a BRT-lite on Eglinton opening at the same time as The Crosstown.
Cheers, Moaz
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Chris said:
8 minutes of savings refers to actual travel time but there are other savings and improvements that can be factored in, especially if the TTC does NOT make the mistake only switching modes (bus seats with LRT seats on a lower frequency).
Improvements such as:
level boarding at multiple-doors (lower dwell times)
POP operations (lower dwell times)
separated right-of-way (no conflicts with mixed traffic, less likely to be affected by congestion)
Direct down-the-platform access to the Sheppard line (reduced connection time)
Larger vehicle leading to more seats passing a point (you won’t get left behind by a full bus~but this depends on the service level the TTC chooses).
Cheers, Moaz
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Chris said:
Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at it.
There are 5 MiExpress routes (101 Dundas, 103 Hurontario, 107 Airport-Malton-Humber College, 109 Meadowvale and 110 Clarkson GO-UTM-City Centre) soon to be joined by a sixth (100 Transitway) compared to 3 ZUM routes (501 Queen, 502 Main and 511 Steeles).
On the other hand ZUM has nicely designed station, live service information, and bus priority. I’m not sure about POP or multiple-door boarding though.
As for a MiExpress on Eglinton that would be good. I suppose it’s worth considering that Eglinton only got a full cross-city bus route a few years ago. Before that there were separate routes for west and east of Hurontario with a connection at Square One (or at Kingsbridge Garden Circle and Hurontario if you were familiar with both routes).
Cheers, Moaz
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@Moaz
I live on Mavis, not Hurontario though. That’s the problem. The route would have to be Eglinton (for a couple kms max though), Hurontario, Queen. Instead of just Eglinton and Dixie. Google Maps calculated Eglinton and Dixie as the fastest public transit option. Indirect routes only work for rapid transit with short headways. Like the TTC subway. I don’t know what the ZUM 502 and 501 headways are during rush hour but for Miway 103 Hurontario Express, it’s 13 mins. The local service has shorter headways.
Eglinton hasn’t had a cross-town route until the recent few years or so. But it is an important east-west corridor and I’d think it would deserve consideration when Mississauga finally decides to expand express service.
If I were City Council, my vision of Mississauga’s “Transit City” would be as follows: 7-8 east-west MiExpress routes: Derry Rd, Britannia Rd, Eglinton Ave, Transitway (coming soon), Burnhamthorpe Rd, Dundas (existing), Queensway (may be too short for one) and Lakeshore Blvd. 6-8 north-south MiExpress routes: Ninth Line, Winston Churchill, Erin Mills/Southdown, Mavis Rd, Hurontario (existing and then replaced by the LRT when that rolls out), Cawthra Rd (too short?), Dixie Rd, Airport Rd (too short?). Expand route coverage during off-peak hours, especially Sundays (max 30 min headways as well). Blue Night service (vast majority of the population is within 15 mins of a bus stop, max 30 min headways). I would fund this through a progressive property tax. Those with large properties would pay progressively more in property taxes. Tax break considerations would be given to commerical/industrial property owners who meet specific employment quotas and participate in certain government employment initiatives targeting vulnerable communities and at-risk youth. Parking demand management solutions would also be considered and used to fund public transit in areas where it is necessary (City Centre, on-street parking on Queen Street South in Streetsville).
The beauty about BRT-lite express service is that if any of my proposed express routes perform poorly, there is very little sunk capital cost if you scrap the route and use the buses elsewhere.
I respect Hazel McCallion. But she is a small c conservative with more traditional, old-school values. She talks like she’s all big on public transit and how we are experiencing gridlock here (I haven’t drove all over Mississauga during rush hour but I think it’s only really bad in City Centre. If I had subways on my pet corridors, I would still drive because it’s still faster at current traffic congestion levels. Subways are competitive with cars but you still have to walk or bus to a subway station and wait for transfers) But she’s only big on public transit if Ontario or Canada foots the bill for Mississauga.. lol. She has no interest in raising municipal taxes to fund it.
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Chris said:
I found a document from back in 2009 that mentioned plans for new MiExpress routes, namely 102B Hurontario S (from Square One to Port Credit, supplementing the 102 Square One-Shopper’s World), 103 Lakeshore from Long Branch to Clarkson, 105 Dixie from Dixie Mall to Bramalea city Centre, and the 104 Derry. The 2013-2016 Business Plan updates those plans.
I also agree there should be a Mi Express 135 Eglinton, and the 107 does serve Airport Road … perhaps a Zum route on Airport would help (although BT does have the Airport Express). Erin Mills is covered by 110 (south of 403) and 109 (north of 403). When the transitway phase 2 opens there will be a transfer at Erin Mills station.
Streets like Cawthra, Britannia and Queensway would probably not be good for MiExpress service. 8 Cawthra and 4 Queensway are two of the lowest demand routes. MiWay tried an Express Bus (route 84) on Queensway in 97 or 98. They couldn’t fill a 40′ bus so they switched to an Orion II … and couldn’t fill that bus either. Britannia might have a limited stop bus but not MiExpress.
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Steve – I had commented that elevated LRT or heavy rail should be considered more in Toronto. I should have clarified where I thought it should be considered.
I did not mean to say it should go along Eglinton through mid-town Toronto — in that area, as you commented, the LRT clearly needs to be tunneled due to the narrow width of the Eglinton right-of-way. Where I think an elevated LRT should be considered is east of Laird Drive as far as Kennedy. Most of the land uses alongside Eglinton in that area are commercial or mid to high-rise residential, usually set back from the road quite a distance.
The reason is that the tunnelled portion of the line will be rapid transit AND will not interfere with car traffic or pedestrians or bikes — why all of a sudden east of Laird make the different modes interact with each other, thereby slowing everybody down. If you’ve invested the money to make it grade separated 75% of the route, why not make efforts to maintain the grade separation all the way. Having the rapid feel all the way to Kennedy is what will make more people take the LRT.
Where it is at-grade, there will be noise impacts on the adjacent uses anyhow, and raising the LRT up onto a guideway will not increase those by all that much. Having the grade separation would also reduce the bad will that drivers have against LRT.
Steve: When the Eglinton line was proposed as part of Transit City, it would have been underground from Black Creek to Laird, but at grade from the Airport to Black Creek, and from Laird to Morningside (dipping underground only for Don Mills and Kennedy stations). This is not a case of being 75% underground. The common factor in Transit City designs was to use surface alignments where there is room to do so and, thereby, reduce structural costs especially at stations.
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I agree with him that the decision to have the LRT in the median should have been re-evaluated as the design progressed. For the phase being constructed now, about 80% is grade-separated (I am counting the SRT into the totals). With the extension to the airport, this number would drop to somewhere in the 60’s percent, depending on how much of the line is grade separated at Pearson. The thing is, they have probably added over 5 km of grade-separation since the first decision to go “in-median” was made – would the decision be the same given the new information?
The decision to not proceed with the West extension (and the Scarborough-Malvern LRT) and the relatively easy ability to grade-separate the line through Etobicoke (and Scarborough through Eglinton) should also be considered when the grade-separation/in-median choice is reviewed.
Steve: I don’t buy the “in for a penny, in for a pound” argument. The whole point about LRT is that it does not require grade separation as a precondition for design. On the outer ends of lines, the service requirements may be lower, and the justification for complete segregation not financially viable. This option should not be precluded.
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Considering the delayed state of transit investment in the GTA I would rather see the money invested in building more kilometres of LRT and rapid transit rather than investing more money to into the same kilometres by elevating the line.
The thing about the adding of tunneled segments to the Eglinton line is that the western addition (at Weston Road) is necessary because there isn’t much room in Mount Dennis, and the eastern addition is logical because it allows construction to proceed faster (by launching the Tunnel Boring Machines from the Ontario Science Centre parking lot) … and the line was going to be underground at Don Mills anyways.
If not elevating the surface segments of the LRT lines means a line such as Eglinton can be extended to the Airport or out to Mississauga then I’d prefer the extension … and frankly the extension will bring about more benefits than elevation would.
Cheers, Moaz
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Karl, please consult WIKIPEDIA “Summerhill railway station”.
The plans for parallel CPR service thru S. Ont. fell apart (according to WIKI) in 1930, above mentioned railway station was used twice since that time for passenger traffic (1939/1945). Board sign at Don Mills, which was there until late 20th century, is gone (two pairs of switches and lots of signals mark that spot just east of Don Mills rd.), connection of Don branch to Millwood station is very bad (behind Loblaws store).
So — there is a corridor; however it can never be used again for passengers traffic — what a shame!
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