Toronto Council, after over a day and a half’s debate, has approved the construction of a Sheppard East LRT from Don Mills to Morningside by a vote of 24-19. This completes the rout of Mayor Ford’s subway plan and returns transit plans more or less to their position when he was elected. The Mayor vows to fight on, but now sees this as a future campaign issue.
Today’s debate was, for the most part, more civil and organized than what we heard yesterday, except for an outburst from the Mayor and a speech showing his passionate hatred for streetcars.
Now the ball is in Metrolinx’ court to come up with a construction staging plan allowing for the year-plus delay. During the debate, some members of the pro-subway faction claimed that, according to private conversations with Metrolinx, work would not start on the Sheppard LRT until 2016. My own sources tell me that this is not true, but we must await a definitive word from the Provincial agency.
The Sheppard LRT decision also ensures that the Scarborough RT extension will be part of the plan with the new LRT line running, initially, to Sheppard Avenue and using Conlins Road carhouse as a base. A motion by Councillor Cho, which passed as part of the package, seeks funding for extending the SRT/LRT northeast to Malvern Centre and the Sheppard LRT south via Morningside to UTSC campus. “Streetcars” might reach Malvern only five decades or so after the TTC’s original proposal.
A number of additional motions related to long range planning and funding of transit expansion. These were referred to the City Manager for future reports. Strangely absent in the discussion was any mention of the role Metrolinx and its “Big Move 2.0” might take in these discussions.
The details of the decision are available online.
This is an important day for Toronto. We are on track for an LRT-based plan and for a more detailed evaluation of our transit future than we have seen for decades. Talking about one line at once, about fundraising for one project at once, is no longer an accepted way of building the city. Leaving the debate to a secretive Provincial agency is no longer acceptable, and the City is clearly setting out on its own review. Co-operation is essential given the funding arrangements, but Queen’s Park must stop hiding from the transit planning and financing files.
Finally, a personal note. Throughout this debate, I have been gratified by the broad understanding of transit issues displayed by many Councillors, advocates and media. This blog and my own advocacy have helped, but there is the compound effect of so many people working with an informed sense of the topic. Congratulations to everyone who had a hand in this victory.
Steve Munro 
Josh Gould said:
I was already more than aware of the need to regauge the tracks from TTC gauge to standard gauge and the nightmare of lowering the platforms. However, those are issues of whether the conversion is practical. The point that I was making with my original question was to raise awareness that we’re not sure if the conversion is possible within the confines of the existing tunnels even if the TTC finds a way to avoid using overhead wires.
To put it another way, what’s the point of arguing the cost and difficulty of converting the Sheppard subway to LRT if the trains you would use on it wouldn’t fit in the first place? And let’s face it, modifying the track gauge and lowering the platforms is much easier than modifying the shape of an existing subway tunnel.
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The LRT ridership projections I am sure also take future development into account. And even without more development, it is a well known fact the subway would attract much more riders than LRT.
It is funny, that everyone is going on about how the density of Sheppard can only support an LRT. Well under this logic, why would we even be building an LRT to a wilderness park, which is what building LRT to Meadowvale and Sheppard will do?
Under the LRT ideology, Sheppard say east of Kennedy is served well by just having existing bus service. And therefore having the subway built and going into Scarborough Centre makes total sense.
I really do not understand this obsession with serving North East Scarborough along Sheppard with a line that is not even going to be an improvement over the existing bus service.
I would like to know why my tax dollars are being wasted to the tune of $8.4 billion dollars on an LRT project which is really just about building a fancy local transit route, which could be done at a fraction of the cost by painting bus lanes and using the existing buses on Sheppard and Finch and Eglinton. $8.4 billion and myself and my fellow Scarborough residents will still be sitting on transit for an hour to get somewhere. Seems like a waste of money to me.
Steve: The last time I looked, that $8.4b is going mainly to Eglinton and to the replacement and extension of the SRT. Sheppard gets only $1b.
If we are going to be spending such a large sum of money on transit, then there should be benefits in the tune of bringing true rapid transit to the areas of the city that need it. Not building something because it is the planning fad of the day (and that is exactly what LRT is in most cases).
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@Richard
Hi Richard,
I didn’t mean to offend with my comment regarding new immigrants. Both of my parents were immigrants to this country, and my mother is of mixed race, so I can assure you that I meant no disrespect with my generalization, but I can understand why you might have taken it that way. Of course I agree that some of the most ignorant people in this mess (including Rob Ford) are Canadian-born “white-bread” types. I’m thinking more in terms of many of my neighbours who are new immigrants with language barriers as well as other pressing problems that keep them from delving deeper into TTC funding issues. For instance, my wonderful next-door neighbours who recently immigrated from Iran are both extremely well-educated, but they don’t speak fluent English and they are so busy trying to make a living in their new country for their little boy that they don’t have the kind of free time I have to do all of the research I have done on this issue. Again, I apologize for offending anyone with my comments.
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Instead of trying to find money to eliminate the transfer at Don Mills station, why don’t we find money to actually improve service for Sheppard riders stuck between Don Mills and Yonge?
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In what I can only describe as a moment of serendipity, I ran into David Miller on the subway going to work on Friday morning. We had a brief chat about the SELRT vote and what it would mean for Malvern and points east, and I expressed my dismay that he had not run for a third term. He mentioned that he was enjoying coaching his daughter’s soccer team, and as I left, I told him that I sincerely hoped we’d have a new mayor in a couple years. He smiled and said “me too”.
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Steve, Kudos for you and your hard work on all of this over the years. Kudos to Brian C … great blog!!! Kudos also to Marcus Gee (“An open letter to those who elected Rob Ford”). Why? This was a Globe columnist not the Star doing such a column. Great job.
Do you know what I have found to be great reading everything in your blog at this time? It is the different names (voices and thoughts) that I have only seen for the first time on your site. It must also be very gratifying to you also. Great job everyone!!
I went into the archives to check something out. During February 2007, early in the 2nd term of David Miller, there was a group council photo session that was a fiasco, to put it mildly. (Let me preface by saying I’m not endorsing anything here that David Miller did…) A group of councillors (make sure you catch these names everyone and remember them well!!!!!) came early to the photo session and placed themselves front and center for the photo. When everyone else (other councillors) arrived, they refused to vacate their seats. The mayor and executive committee are usually in the front two rows, allies in the next with the others at the back. They apparently wouldn’t even move for one councillor who was well under five feet tall! Editorials then called it a very childish situation at city hall.
Guess who the other were who refused to move…
Their reasoning…. the mayor had given himself too much power. Guess it’s been proven that the mayor has great power only if he learns to work within the fabric of city council!! Hey Torontonians, remember those names for the next election. Once again great job all you bloggers here!
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Josh Gould looks at Sheppard from Yonge to Bathurst and argues that Sheppard doesn’t need a westward extension. This is like looking at Hogg’s Hollow and arguing that the Yonge subway can stop at Lawrence.
There is no reason — none — why converting the Sheppard subway to LRT is a bad idea, except cost. And so many people here are arguing that it should not be done, without even knowing what the number is! Why?
You just spent the last couple of months arguing that the Sheppard subway is underused and inefficient, and that LRT will deliver higher order transit all over the city. So, hooray! You won the debate! Everybody agrees with you! Let’s celebrate by saying that actually the Sheppard subway is not so bad, and that actually, we DON’T need higher order transit all over the city; we can just use LRT as a feeder network for the subway. Wait, what?
It seems to me we’ve ended up right back where we started. This strikes me as no new era at all.
Steve: That’s not the argument. Yes, it would be interesting to know what the technical and cost issues might be in a subway-to-LRT conversion, but that does not mean that this project should be at the top of the list for new spending.
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@Josh Gould: your example (trip from Bathurst & Wilson to Yonge & Finch) demonstrates that for short trips, service reliability and frequency matter more than speed. Hence, the advantage of a subway is minor, if any.
But for longer trips, the role of service reliability and frequency remains constant, whereas the role of speed increases.
For students traveling from northern Scarborough to York U, having a gap in rapid transit between the Yonge and Spadina subways will be a major problem. For example, one would board SELRT at Midland, transfer to subway at Don Mills, transfer to a 196 or 85 bus at Yonge, and transfer to subway again at Downsview; that’s 3 transfers, and a longer than an hour trip each way.
Bridging the gap would make a major improvement. That can be achieved either by extending Sheppard subway to Downsview, or by extending Finch West LRT along Finch East all the way to McCowan. (Actually I hope that both of those will be built eventually).
Steve: The Finch LRT was proposed to run all the way to Don Mills Station in the version announced by Metrolinx, but the section east of Keele (let alone east of Yonge) is off in the future somewhere. Also, there is a big problem with Finch itself east of Yonge which was preserved as a narrow, low-rise residential area by Mel Lastman. It is not wide enough to hold a surface LRT.
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Steve, your comments on 24 Mar:
– You found me out sir. Connectivity as in giving a N-S link between Sheppard and Eglinton and higher order of transit to those on route. This is a bad thing?
– At great expense? I’m proposing the SELRT should be 100% at surface to avoid great expense. Why put in a below-grade Sheppard-Sheppard transfer when it will be lightly used as seen in Eric Miller’s attachments.
– Using “their” line? Why would routing SELRTs south on Don Mills preclude LRTs from north of Don Mills from using the same track? We don’t have to run these like subways lines. Interlining won’t cause planets to fall from their orbits.
– Beaten to death. Perhaps, but I’ve yet to see any official design that demonstrates much thought.
Like the blog. Sometimes disagree with it, but it is never disagreeable.
Steve: Jupiter is dancing with Venus, but both seem secure in the night sky, when they are visible.
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Okay, my last comment on this point. They’ll have to shut down the Sheppard subway for 18 to 24 months to do the conversion. Once the LRT gets going, and demand picks up on the line, shuttle buses would have no hope of bridging the gap. (Admittedly shuttle buses would have a hard time even now, but it would work in the context of wider construction.)
So conversion is not a question of priority; the golden opportunity is right now. We can’t come back to this in 2030 after building X, Y, and Z — it’s now or never. So, your position is “never”.
Steve: You may not like what you hear, but my position is that we cannot “fix” every problem (real or imagined) on the transit system because it is a “golden opportunity”. That sort of analysis leads to engineered crises and artificial inflation of the importance of proposals.
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Michael says:
March 24, 2012 at 10:55 pm
By whom is this fact well known? I question the figures given for the future ridership of the proposed Sheppard Subway extension. What would happen to these riders from the STC area if it isn’t developed? Do they drive, go by another route or does the development not occur?
The Spadina Street Car, which I believe is similar in length to the Sheppard Stubway, carries more passengers per day though it is an “inferior” form of transit, 52,000 vs 48,000. Why does it do this? It does so because it performs a useful function. It runs at more or less regular intervals and has frequent stops that allow passenger to get to their destination with only a short walk. It may have a lower overall speed than Sheppard Stubway but it also has shorter total travel times for most users. Name me one other line that has more service at noon Sunday than in the a.m. rush. Given the fact that most of the riders along the corridor stay in or near the corridor LRT with more frequent stops will be more useful than the Subway would. Lower in vehicle and walking time beats higher speed and longer walking time.
For the amount of money necessary to build the Sheppard Subway extension to STC you can build 2 LRT lines that will serve a lot more people. Let’s compare benefit per dollar spent rather than line built. The LRT comes out on top. Face it Michael, you have lost this battle so find another dead horse to flog.
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Michael says:
I believe the Sheppard East LRT will be an improvement over current bus service. Light rail vehicles have greater capacities than buses. An LRT line on Sheppard will hopefully lead to less crowded transit vehicles. It all depends on how much service the TTC wants to run. If they’re looking to fill the vehicles to capacity to reduce operating costs then commuters will have to deal with uncomfortable commutes and won’t save any time on their trips.
I believe the plan is to have the Sheppard East LRT run on 5-minute headways which will provide sufficient capacity to more than deal with demand (read: less crowded transit vehicles). LRT’s have higher average speeds than buses and wider stop spacing so this should reduce commute times somewhat.
Much of northeast Scarborough wouldn’t get any rapid transit improvement under Ford’s subway plan as it dips south near Agincourt GO station to head to Scarborough Town Centre (STC). Extending the Sheppard subway line exclusively along Shepaprd Ave. to Markham and Sheppard would provide more effective rapid transit to northeast Scarborough than a subway to STC.
The extension could connect with the Eglinton-Crosstown SRT extension to the same intersection providing an indirect connection to STC. The Markham and Sheppard station can have a large bus bay so bus routes in the area can feed commuters to the new subway extension.
Since the Federal Conservatives say they support subways in Toronto they should write the City of Toronto a bigger cheque to build the subway extension. The $333 million they say they may give the city for the Sheppard East LRT isn’t enough to build a subway line.
What’s missing from the discussion is what will happen to the Yonge line. A Sheppard LRT or subway will both feed commuters into the Yonge line. How will it cope with increased ridership? If we build a Sheppard subway, I believe either the Downtown Relief Line or the Don Mills LRT would have to be built simultaneously to relieve congestion on Yonge.
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@Andrew
Converting the Sheppard Subway to LRT is a reduction in capacity, and will only have to be reversed if the Sheppard LRT were to be replaced by a subway. Yes, ironic that I’m saying this as an LRT advocate, but any infrastructure we build today is by no means absolutely permanent. Infrastructure, like streetcar tracks, can be torn up with the need arises. They did it in the earlier part of last century anyways.
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Steve said:
Finch east of Yonge is a challenge for LRT (or BRT), but perhaps the Hydro Corridor alignment should be considered for the route segment from Yonge up to Don Mills, or even up to DVP (serving Seneca College from the north in the latter case).
Running that line to Don Mills & Sheppard was proposed at one point, but I don’t think it is a good idea as the bus service further east on Finch would become sort of orphaned. If they take the pains of doing the difficult portion of Finch LRT between Yonge and Don Mills, then it should continue east along Finch, serving the relatively dense clusters at Warden and McCowan.
Steve: I agree that if we are to have a Finch LRT, it should stay on Finch, a very heavy corridor in its own right, rather than dodging down to Sheppard. This would be both a useful line and provide the east-west link across the top of the city so many crave without having to deal with a jog at Yonge.
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The Yonge line is the critical constraint on any Sheppard East growth projection.
I would consider the Metrolinx projection of 11,000+/hr/dir to be physically impossible since there would be no way for the Yonge line to function under such stress – the line would run out of capacity southbound from York Mills. Metrolinx’s demand model was run without any capacity constraints, so the impacts on demand for the Sheppard corridor when a capacity constraint at Yonge is included is not known from their model. At 6,000/hr, the Yonge line at least has a shot at getting by if the capacity expansion measures work properly (which remains to be seen), although this depends on the details of origin-destination combinations using the Sheppard corridor to reach Yonge (and also depending on what kind of patterns materialize at Yonge/Eglinton).
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On the topic of converting the existing Sheppard subway to LRT.
I would rather have the LRT be a success and have it get upgraded into a subway in the future. Similar to Bloor streetcars and Yonge streetcars.
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How about another approach … it’s been 50 years since we interlined the subways – the big problem then was controlling which subway train went where, keeping the passengers informed, and ensuring that train frequency was kept under control.
With Automatic Train Control supposedly coming to the Yonge Line in the “near” future, what is the possibility of integrating the Sheppard line with the Yonge line?
There would be a problem in that Sheppard-Yonge would not be served, and then you would have the problem of passengers waiting for their train to “Finch” rather than boarding the first train that comes and transferring at York Mills if they wish to continue on a different train.
Extending Sheppard to 6-car trains would not be a major challenge. The excess capacity on Sheppard would help once the trains get onto the Yonge line. And if capacity is an issue on Yonge south of Sheppard, wouldn’t the additional trains help out quite a bit?
Again, this isn’t about trying to “fix” Sheppard, but rather, to offer a service that might help passengers on both lines.
Steve, I’m looking forward to your exploration of all the options for the Sheppard corridor. I know you were going to focus on Don Mills, but I hope you extend your exploration both west of Yonge and east of STC as well.
As for the “drawing lines on maps” argument against a subway extension down Don Mills, I believe that if you compare Don Mills and Sheppard east, you would find more existing subway-supportive development and more opportunity for future dense development along Don Mills road between Eglinton & Sheppard, than you would find along Sheppard East of Don Mills. I’d love to see if there are any official plan numbers for Don Mills that would back that up.
Cheers, Moaz
Steve: This really strikes me as an example of trying to force a configuration onto the subway system that it was not built to handle. Can we concentrate on the larger issues at hand rather than the perception that we should move heaven and earth to give people one-seat rides? A good example would be the DRL to Eglinton. How long before someone argues that the Eglinton line should be a subway so that it can be through-routed to downtown via the DRL? This whole discussion is getting intensely focussed on “fixing” the Sheppard subway, and we have far more important things to do.
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I was not aware there was a problem???? Between Yonge and Don Mills, most residents are within walking distance of a subway stop which offers service every 6 minutes or less, seven days a week.
For the very few residents not within walking distance of the subway, a Sheppard East bus service which operates mostly on a 15-20 minute service handles these riders very well. Even more riders live on north-south feeder bus service as well.
If service was so bad, then transit usage rates and ridership in this corridor would not have skyrocketed, yet it did after the subway opened.
Steve: Careful. You cannot count usage added to the corridor by buses feeding into the subway at Don Mills toward usage rates within the corridor itself.
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Michael says:
March 27, 2012 at 9:47 am
Since the spacing between Yonge and Bayview is 2 km and between Leslie and Don Mills is 2 km I fail to see how these stations are convenient to anyone who lives more than 0.5 km away, especially if they live up a side street. Bus service that runs every 15 to 20 minutes in the rush hour is also not convenient, especially when compared to the bus service before the subway. It adds on average an extra 7.5 to 10 minutes each way to the travel time.
Steve: And one proposed location where a station was not built was Willowdale, one that would actually have served the population. It was even included in Ford’s electioneering subway map, albeit in the wrong location.
I had the privilege to try and use Leslie station today as I had to drive someone to and from the hospital for a minor procedure. I walked across Leslie and went to the nearby station which has a wheel chair ramp. If it has a wheel chair ramp it has to have a collector, wrong. It has a map that shows this entrance and 2 others but it doesn’t indicate which has a collector. I look to the west and see a station which appears to have a bus terminal; this must be the one with the collector, wrong again. I look across the road and down about 30 feet and there is the station with the collector but I can’t see an easy way to get down to it. Rather than wander around the area any more I pay the full adult cash fare. Who designed this station. It seems to be for Ikea and Canadian Tire. The staffed entrance is 150 m from the street bearing its name. I know it is under the bridge for Old Leslie so why not call it Old Leslie Station.
I got on the next east bound train a little after 8:00 a.m. and we almost got a fully seated load by the time we got to Yonge Street. The next s.b. Yonge train had an almost full standing load. I would hate to try and get on farther south. Yes the usage and rider ship on Sheppard where very very high for a full subway. There are 2 street car lines that carry more people than this joke.
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@Michael
I am still rather incredulous that you are the same person whom I’ve worked with on another transit campaign about a year ago. We even had this discussion on Facebook before: one cannot assume that all Sheppard riders live on Sheppard itself, and you have to take into account the walk to reach Sheppard, and along Sheppard to reach the station. Given the amorphous street layout, making walking distances longer than downtown, station access becomes critical.
Even more critical when passengers are carrying bulky items, or travelling late at night. Yes, increased speed is worth the increase in station spacing, so long as walking distances aren’t excessive.
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And Michael, as I’ve said before (as well as many others), if you have to wait for a bus that comes at best every 15 minutes, there is no time advantage with subway over LRT.
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Also, as a response to Robert Wightman, Michael will point out that the distance from Leslie to Don Mills is 1.25 km. Of course, that still leaves a coverage gap of 250 metres on Sheppard itself, nevermind the gap further off of Sheppard.
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Jacob Louy says:
March 27, 2012 at 11:08 pm
Mea Culpa as Spiro T Agnew said. I forgot that Don Mill is not the next concession road but I believe that it would be Woodbine which is buried under the 404 I think. Anyway when you add the distance that Leslie Station is from Leslie the spacing is probably 1.4 to 1.5 km.
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@Robert and Jacob:
It’s around 1.7km between the two subway stations. As Robert correctly pointed out, Leslie station is a notable distance west of the street proper. Although not nearly as big a factor, Don Mills station is mostly on the east side of Don Mills Rd. The distance from street centre to street centre seems to be about 1.45km (according to Bing, Google, and Toronto Maps).
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About politics in general:
I’m often surprised by the numerous counter-intuitive and unexpected actions by some politicians, and I do have to wonder if what they do and say in public is an accurate reflection on their true intentions.
Take Mammoliti. Supposedly very open about his opposition to the Finch LRT, even going as far as to hint that he’d “break the law” in order to stop the LRT (in an interview with Andrew Krystal of CityTV). I’ve watched the interview, and all I got from Mammoliti was that Metrolinx/TTC had better not build anything without consulting with the community and BIA’s, or else, face the consequences of community fighting and backlash. Minus the Mammoliti-image factor, his plea for consultation is a perfectly reasonable one that any councillor should demand. I would even agree that any project that’s rammed down the throat of the community is not favourable, even if it’s an LRT project.
It’s also interesting to note that the only clue of Mammoliti’s supposed opposition to the LRT on his official website is a primitive-looking biased pamphlet for an info session with the Emery Village BIA. In fact, it’s telling that Mammoliti’s office couldn’t find a more recent article with his thoughts on LRT than a newspaper article dating back to January 25th, before Ford came out swinging against any compromise. This was probably a time when more suburban Councillors, including Mammoliti, felt it was safe to break with Ford and support surface LRT.
So in conclusion, I do have to wonder if Councillors like Mammoliti really are against the LRT.
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