Various media outlets have reported that the Expert Panel struck by Toronto City Council to review options for the Sheppard East line will recommend the original Transit City LRT plan, not a subway extension.
To the amazement of many, Mayor Rob Ford appears to be trying for a compromise, but given his history, that word probably has a different meaning for the Mayor and his circle than for the rest of us. The essential problem is to decide whether the subway will end somewhere west of Scarborough Town Centre (Don Mills? Victoria Park?) or if the “compromise” plan would presume getting to STC some day. If that’s the “compromise”, them building an LRT to meet the subway would come under fire as a waste of money, and we would be back, essentially, to Ford’s all-subway plan for Sheppard.
Meanwhile, TTC Chair Karen Stintz and Councillor Josh Matlow held a packed meeting in North Toronto to explain and advocate for the LRT option endorsed by Council. Although there is good support for LRT, an uphill battle remains to counter the Ford camp’s pro-subway spin.
City Council will meet in March 15, 2012 to consider the panel’s report which, if the agenda process runs true to form, should be available in advance of the meeting.
Steve Munro 
I’m really starting to get irritated by the “LRT construction will rip up streets” argument. Do people not remember what Yonge and Sheppard looked like when they were building the subway? I’ve seen the construction in Vaughan by the new subway station, and boy is Highway 7 ever ripped up over there.
It’s a shame how people are being led on by the “horrors” of LRT — aren’t most of these businesses (especially on Finch) in strip malls that have their own parking lots? They don’t rely on curbside parking like on St. Clair. I mentioned this on Urban Toronto that Finch, from the 400 to Albion is all strip malls and the industrial area is on Signet — at least a half kilometer from Finch. How exactly are their businesses going to be affected by the construction of the LRT? I’m not too sure about Sheppard though..
I am pro-transit, I believe that a city requires an efficient NETWORK of transit, using all viable technologies. This is a silly game being played and I am starting to believe that Toronto is going to be left with nothing.
Steve: It is telling that when the media finally talked to a businessman rather than to Mammoliti, the story came out that the BIA is unsure of the relative effect of LRT or subway options, and wants more info. That’s a huge distance from being totally opposed to LRT and willing to wait 5 years for a subway.
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My comments to some of the comments in this thread and the whole idea of pushing for LRT on Sheppard from the committee.
1. This is a complete slap in the face to Scarborough. Because yet again, Scarborough riders will be asked to transfer modes half way through a trip that should be a seamless one seat ride right across Sheppard. I don’t care if the transfer is across a platform. It makes no sense and is still a waste of time.
Steve: Riders travelling “right across Sheppard” will not have a seamless one-seat ride. They will have to take a bus down to STC to connect with the Sheppard Subway. You reiterate a claim about one-seat rides for a subway plan that is plain out false. If you persist in doing so, I will start using stronger language suggesting deliberate misrepresentation, a hallmark of the Ford machine. If a transfer is a “waste of time”, then taking a bus down from, say, Malvern to STC to change to the subway is just as bad as having to transfer from the LRT to the subway at Don Mills.
2. Why are you all so eager to not service Scarborough Town Centre? LRT to the ZOO? STC is the largest trip generator in the east end, and a major transit hub. Yet LRT is going to bypass the one place where transit attracts a large ridership. This makes no sense. As much as you all may hate malls, the fact is they are huge transit trip generators and are part of the suburban ridership success in Toronto.
Steve: Well, actually, there is a lot of travel within Scarborough that does not go to, nor does it want to go to STC. That’s a matter of record from planning data. STC is an artificial node that forces people to travel out of their way. As for the zoo, that’s a fantasy of some Scarborough Councillors. Transit City’s plan never went to the zoo, and indeed the version under discussion by Metrolinx just when Ford cancelled the project was headed for UofT’s Scarborough Campus. That’s a real destination people want to get to all day and all year long.
3. The Danforth: The subway is not the reason that the eastern part of Danforth is not as vibrant as the west section. In fact is subways kill retail because people can’t look at shops from a streetcar window, then why is Bloor West Village and the western part of Danforth so vibrant? Do you want to know what killed the east part of Danforth (if you even want to say it is bad. All I see on the east part of Danforth are stores catering to local residents. Sure its not packed, but why would it be? Its just serving locals), is the Shoppers World Mall, the big boxes down on Lakeshore, etc. In fact look at Queen in the same area, east of Pape to the Beaches. It is probably in worst shape than Danforth, despite having a streetcar. And it has to do with the suburban retail that was allowed to be built off the main strips.
I was just in Manhattan, and despite only subways, their streets are packed with stores and restaurants.
The idea that people sit on a streetcar and look at stores and decide to hop off, is really a dream. People want to get to where they are going. They are not hoping to discover new stores on their ride around the city.
Steve: The point I have been making here is that subways are not a guarantee of redevelopment or of density. If a subway serves an area where there is already a potential and market for growth, then the subway will support that growth. Nothing, however, will make people rent space in office towers in less than desirable locations, or buy condos at inflated prices when they could live downtown instead. I agree that the supposed benefit of LRT for shops along the way is overstated by some LRT advocates, but that does not invalidate LRT as a transit mode any more than the inflated claims of subway advocates invalidates the benefit of subways where they are appropriate.
4. Malvern: I would love to be at these meetings to hear what Malvern residents have to say when they find out that LRT is not going to improve their trip times at all over the current bus routes. It’s still going to take Malvern residents an hour and half to get downtown, or to other areas of the city where they need to go. How is this connecting priority neighbourhoods?
My idea: Extend the Sheppard subway as an elevated line, east of Victoria Park all the way to Scarborough Town Centre.
Steve: And at STC those happy folks from Malvern will transfer to your new subway after riding a bus. As for an elevated line, good luck selling that to the affected neighbourhoods, not to mention threading it through STC.
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Given current conditions at city hall and the TTC it appears that LRT supporters are in the billiards term, ‘snookered’. Regardless whether the committee recommends Sheppard LRT over Sheppard subway extension it cannot be politically done. If council overrules the mayor’s position, his camp will move for a referendum. If it is held there is a very good chance that LRT will be defeated. LRT support consists of mostly, but not all, young and middle age technocrats as well as many, but not all, railfans. Their numbers simply cannot carry the day.
If Council refuses a referendum, then the outcry against the authoritian Council who deny the voice of citizens who elected them can scarcely be imagined. Indeed there may be enough citizen pressures that some members may be coerced into resigning, dissolving what support that does exist for LRT there.
Steve: You overestimate the number of votes the Mayor controls on Council, not to mention the presumption that the populace will uniformly rise up to unseat LRT supporters.
If the Council chooses to proceed with LRT in defiance of the mayor and his supporters, Toronto becomes a new focus of interest for political scientists across the continent; a municipal coup where Council seized power from the mayor and the citizenry.
Steve: “The citizenry” did not uniformly support Ford, and many of those who did so voted on the basis of (a) dubious alternatives and (b) a promise to clean up government and lower taxes. They will not fall for that scam a second time around.
If such occurs it will be no time for the mayor and his supporters to give up. They could proceed to obstruct any work on the project by every technicality in the book. They can argue that they are protecting the citizens from a dictatorial Council which works without legitimate authority.
Safe to say the council will retreat into a safe ‘do-nothing’ posture something not unfamiliar to Toronto politics. This may save their hides for this term, but will harm any chance they have of re-election. It also may produce laws against ‘civic rebellion’ by provincial and federal government giving them power to depose any ‘runaway council or mayor’ during the civic term. Toronto will never be the same again.
Steve: A majority of Council represents a majority of the City, not a dictatorship of one man unilaterally imposing his will without consent. Saying that Council does not have “legitimate authority” ignores the very basis of how municipal government works — Council, not the Mayor, is supreme.
The entire issue highlights the many problems with Toronto planners and transit policymakers. The only prospect of compromise could have been if LRT supporters had held extensive open meetings with the mayor and citizens to explain their positions and to find areas of agreement between them so that ‘more than nothing’ could be achieved.
LRT is a new and somewhat experimental transit mode. Dozens of practical problems with it exist which have never been raised in public, particularly with these proposed routes. It could be useful, if it was tried out experimentally on a much quieter route giving people and business a chance to see it and learn how it may/may not benefit Toronto Perhaps this is the best opportunity for LRT in Toronto.
Steve: LRT is so new and untried that over 100 cities around the world have embraced it in past decades. You don’t “try out” something like this on a “much quieter route” — I can hear screams about wasting money on an LRT where a bus was all that’s needed now.
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I was just wondering how many employees are required for each LRV consist. While I believe only an operator is needed, like most systems around the world, could someone please confirm this.
Steve: The intention is to have one-man crews.
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Could we please shift the debate from:
“fully underground Sheppard” vs. “above ground right of way LRT”
to
“above ground right of way LRT” vs. “above ground right of way LRT that dips under some if not all intersections if logistically it can be done + the cost increase isn’t obscene”?
Steve: The problem with “dipping under” is the length of the approach ramps needed to get enough room to clear not just the road surface but also the utilities under the street. This issue has been discussed and dropped before because it is not practical. Note that this also implies underground stations with all of the attendant problems of access and security.
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Steve says:
This is the exact reason why I never understood the staunch support for the Sheppard subway extension from so many people. A subway to Scarborough Town Centre (STC) does not make one’s commute faster when you have to take a 30 to 45 minute bus ride (worst case scenario) to get to STC.
Steve says:
I agree. If you look at the area around STC there isn’t much there. Recently condos started going up. For most people, they are being forced to STC to catch a bus that will take them to their destination. Forcing people to travel out of their way to use this artificial transit hub unnecessarily makes their commute longer. I also don’t understand the fetish of having every proposed rail line in Scarborough run to STC.
Michael says:
I cannot remember if this came from a TTC or Metrolinx report but a report on the Sheppard East LRT mentioned the travel time from Meadowvale to Don Mills station would be 40 to 45 minutes. That means it would take close to an hour to travel to Yonge street. It would take close to 90 minutes to travel to downtown Toronto. If these figures are to be believed, then I have to agree that the LRT will not speed up the commute for Scarborough residents but neither will a Sheppard subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre.
A Sheppard subway extension exclusively along Sheppard Avenue to Markham and Sheppard would speed up the commute. The proposed reconstruction and extension of the Scarborough (L)RT to Markham and Sheppard would provide an indirect connection to STC. The Sheppard subway station at Markham and Sheppard can have a large bus bay to handle bus routes in the northeast end of the city. However, there are three problems inherent with this plan. (1) Ridership levels would most likely be 2/3 (educated guess) of what is needed to justify a subway; (2) there is no way to pay for it; and (3) there may not be any land available to build a large station as development is occurring in the area.
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Michael says:
I’m sure some Malvern residents felt that they weren’t really given a chance to speak. After the presentation, the attendees at the forum broke off into small groups with a moderator in each group to talk about what they learned from the presentation. Each group thought up a question for the panel. Subway advocates who tried to speak up when the expert panel were answering group questions were silenced. There was very little open dialogue with residents in the larger forum. If the arguments in favor of LRT are so overwhelmingly strong why silence opposing viewpoints?
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Some of the comments in this thread really make me question if a lot of people on this blog and Transit City supporters even understand transit in the outer reaches of this city (most on here hail from the inner city).
Comments that the TTC is forcing people to transfer at Scarborough Town Centre makes no sense. The only TTC bus routes which operate into Scarborough Town Centre are bus routes which already pass Scarborough Town Centre. A couple routes like the 131, 132, etc terminate at Scarborough Centre. But where else would you have them end, at McCowan and Nugget?
Even just watching the skybridge between STC and the RT shows a constant stream of people going from the TTC to the mall, etc. So it is a bigger trip generator than many of you are making it sound. In fact malls across the city are major generators for the TTC. In fact malls are the perfect transit friendly place to focus transit on.
Further comments about a Sheppard subway forcing people to ride to STC to get to subway service is not true. People would simply ride down to a closer subway station on the Sheppard corridor, etc. People from Malvern would not have to ride into STC, because the TTC would hopefully get the idea that some buses would need to directly feed into the subway along Sheppard, either through local or express means.
Steve: You are changing the subject. Your original claim was that a Sheppard Subway would give a one-seat ride for people from eastern Scarborough to Yonge Street. That is simply not true if the subway goes to STC. People will have to take a bus either to STC, or if routes focus west on Sheppard, to, say, Kennedy/Sheppard or Agincourt GO station which could be a mini-hub for the area.
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Hi Steve:-
I’m glad Keith Milligan has written in to your blog as now we can hopefully get his attention and open his eyes. Hopefully he’ll keep his mind open and will continue to browse here.
Up until now Keith has missed out on being aware of the 115th anniversary of LRT, as we now call it, in North America! I’m referring to the Boston Subway and its feeder lines and routes. Keith, this was North America’s first subway and its feeders are all on the surface and are presently private reservation routes as well as, oh my should I say it, but conventional streetcar lines that all operate into the downtown subway portion of their trips. There’s even a stretch that runs out to a place called Lechmere and arrives there after climbing out of the subway on to an el. It then proceeds past the Boston Gardens and the heavy rail (our GO equivalent) commuter station, North Station, out to its terminus that it shares with suburban bus route feeders. Boston is only one City that has examples of all of the options open to establishing light rail routes in as flexible a way as possible in the communities it serves but it is presently the best example of the remaining NA systems.
It has been successfully carrying recreational riders, students, visitors and residents from all walks of life to and fro in all weather. I would not be surprised if over the last 115 years that Boston will have recorded average winter weather conditions worse that those Toronto will have received. There is also the one line that doesn’t go into the core, but services a suburb and then transfers passengers at one of the suburban subway stations.
Similarly Philadelphia has its streetcar subway, although not as long lived as Boston’s, but none the less, just as effective.
And Cleveland’s Shaker Rapid, now part of the City’s system, has been slogging away in lake effect weather conditions since the late teens. It carries riders who are affluent enough to be able to afford to live in that eastern suburb as well as their domestic staff commuting to their employer’s homes.
These Keith are only three of the 100s of examples of what is still in place worldwide and indeed typifies scores of other operations that have been lost due to economic and political activities in their respective communities.
Those mentioned above are the oldest examples Keith. Among the newer examples of North American installations are San Diego, Calgary and Edmonton, all who have had their core routes successfully running for more than 3 decades now. I will add that those Burgs count their installations as a source of civic pride and accomplishment.
Now with all of that said, I’m not sure how you can even consider stating that LRT is new and untested. Not so I’m afraid! Keith, I have been a student of the history of transit in North America for most of my life and can assure you that I have witnessed and read much of what is and what once was and can attest to the accuracy of my observations here.
One other point you made Keith that has me a little puzzled. I’m unsure of how a majority on City Council can be considered a dictatorship. As Mr. Churchill once said, and I’m paraphrasing, not quoting, ‘democracy is the best of the worst, but its a darn sight better that the rest’. It appears that our imperfect Council is indeed a democracy! But if our poorly informed, horribly misguided and much less than honourable Mayor had his way, Toronto Council would just rubber stamp his ‘Emporatic’ decrees. Much more like a dictatorship than the recently demonstrated democratic process of freer thought methinks!
Dennis Rankin
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I think it additional transfers in Scarborough is a legitimate point. If the Sheppard subway was built to Scarborough Centre most people in Scarborough could get to Yonge and Sheppard with one transfer, local bus to subway. If the Sheppard LRT was built it would reach more people who would have one transfer to get to Yonge (LRT to subway at Don Mills), but for those who didn’t happen to live near Sheppard they would have two transfers to get to Yonge, bus to LRT to subway.
I think the best solution in the long term is to modify the Sheppard subway to support the LRT. The extra platform space could be used to keep the subway in operation while other parts of the platform are under construction. No cheap, but billions cheaper then extending the subway.
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Darwin and other no-transfers-no-matter-what-the-cost supporters,
In reality, nobody living East of Kennedy will be traveling across Sheppard if their destination is downtown. Other more efficient routes will be available such as Agincourt GO, Oshawa GO, the successor of the RT that hopefully will get at least to Markham Road and the future Malvern LRT that will cost just as much as converting one rapid transit route (Sheppard Subway) to another rapid transit mode. If what was originally planned is implemented (that includes all day Lakeshore East GO and Stoufville GO) most people in that neglected part of the city will be within ten minutes from rapid transit by either bus, walking or biking and will be able to get downtown under an hour.
Transfer at Don Mills will be used either for folks going from Scarborough to North York or those who live right on Sheppard East and are going downtown. Inconvenience? Yes. Worth a megaproject to get it fixed? I don’t think so. I am skeptical that rapid transit on Sheppard will be able to redirect a large number of commuters that are currently taking the Finch bus due to congestion on the North South routes in Scarborough. Even if this is a subway. Dufferin bus is packed despite the fact that Spadina subway is so close. And if you live south of Sheppard you won’t travel north if your direction is south.
The objective of Transit City is bringing rapid transit to as many communities as possible. Unfortunately, even in the best case scenario we will only have four truncated lines built by the end of the decade. Extra funding from the province is very unlikely with current deficit projections and nobody seriously believes in mysterious “private sector subways that pay for themselves” anymore. The city will need to raise funds itself. The point that we have no money is moot – we are one of the wealthiest nations on earth. We need to raise more money and expedite the implementation of the Big Move. While gas tax, city sales tax, vehicle registration fees and parking charges are worth debating, congestion pricing on the DVP and Gardiner could be the bitter pill we desperately need to close that funding gap.
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Michael says:
Toronto’s transit system is designed so that the subway acts as trunk lines while the bus and streetcar routes act as feeder lines. Under that arrangement all but a couple of bus routes terminate at subway stations. Currently, there are 14 bus routes that terminate at STC.
Gerrymandering bus routes into subway stations doesn’t always create the most direct route for commuters to reach their destination. There are other cities where the subway system and the bus routes operate as two separate networks under one system. Many bus routes will pass by subway stations allowing commuters to transfer to the subway if they need to use it but not all bus routes are forced to terminate at a subway station. Montreal’s bus network is a good example of this.
Commuters who need to travel east of Agincourt GO station (where the Sheppard subway would veer south to reach STC) are forced to STC to take another bus to get to their destination. This doesn’t make much sense since the demand on Sheppard is across the corridor not to travel from Sheppard to STC. As a result, a rapid transit line is needed across Sheppard exclusively.
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Michael says:
The 131, 132, 133 and 134 run into Malvern. All 4 of those routes terminate at STC. Malvern residents would have to take a long bus ride to STC to get to the Sheppard subway or take even longer bus rides on the 85, 39, 116 and 102 to get to a subway station. Your argument doesn’t hold up to the facts.
Michael says:
During rush hour even more people are walking from the RT to the bus platform to catch their bus to get home. After a long day at work and a very long commute home not too many people are interested in stopping off at the mall. They’re at STC because that’s where the transit hub is. That’s where the bus is that will take them home.
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keith milligan says:
March 2, 2012 at 11:20 pm
I will not be as polite as the others! You are either a total idiot or a total liar. Over the past 30 years I have ridden many LRT lines around the world and they are not experimental or untried. If you wish to support subways then do so; but don’t resort to lies to back up your arguments. You just tarnish the people who honestly believe that subways are called for with the same brush that tarnishes yourself.
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Alex K says:
There are a couple of things to remember though. In a general sense, the mean annual income in many parts of Scarborough is below the municipal average. Will residents be willing to pay extra for the convenience of using the GO train when a cheaper alternative, the TTC, is available? Also, GO trains only stop at Scarborough GO stations during rush hour. If you’re schedule does not fit the typical 9 to 5 then GO isn’t an option under current operational practices. The final issue with GO is that Metrolinx hasn’t figured out the bottleneck and capacity issues at Union station. This means all-day GO service is remote at best.
I wouldn’t mind biking 10 to 20 minutes to rapid transit and then transferring onto a rail line to get to my destination. The problem is Scarborough lacks the infrastructure for cyclists to lock up their bikes and leave them there. Commuters would have to take their bikes with them. I’m sure this problem will be rectified in the near future as many bikes lanes have been recently built in Scarborough (with the exception of the handful that were removed by Mayor Ford and his allies).
Steve: If we have billions to spend on subways, we also have money to spend on improvements to GO capacity that may be better overall than throwing all our resources at the TTC. As for fares, I have written often on the problem created by GO’s refusal to examine its possible role in the outer part of the 416 preferring to think of its “regional” mandate as starting at the 416/905 border.
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The capacity issues are at peak period. I would not think that all-day service on some lines would be an issue, even with 15 minute headways. Of course if all lines ran all day, at reasonable headways, then capacity would be a problem.
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Darwin says,
While this is true, is it the case that people all over Scarborough want to go to Downtown North York ™? If Yonge and Sheppard is just a waypoint, there may be better ways of doing things than getting everyone to Yonge and Sheppard where they can try to pack themselves on an already overcrowded Yonge line.
If the goal is to get Scarborough residents quickly to a generally useful subway trip, then extending Bloor-Danforth to STC makes a whole lot more sense than extending the Sheppard subway to STC. Whenever I think of this, I really wonder what the real motivation is for all these alleged Scarboroughites to insist on the Sheppard extension. Currently, the trip from Don Mills station to Yonge and Bloor is at least 30 minutes, and if you’re travelling in the peak direction you’ll be standing the entire length of your trip on Yonge. Extending the subway to STC will make it a 45 minute trip at the very least. And that’s from STC, never mind the length of the bus trip to get to STC.
Notions of Malvernites being whisked downtown in half an hour, if only the Sheppard subway was extended to STC, are sheer fantasy. I believe that Doug Ford once mused on this subject in this vein, which should tell you all you need to know.
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Steve says:
I am not saying that we shouldn’t improve the GO Train network. What I am saying is that there are physical capacity constraints in terms of the number of tracks available at Union station that make all-day GO service remote at best. You’ve commented yourself that Union station is pretty much near capacity.
Steve: During the peak period there is a capacity constraint, not at off-peak. There are also plans in the works for additional capacity. We need to integrate the planning for intra-416 trips with the “regional” trips so that we don’t spend a fortune providing capacity that GO could handle.
The GO Train is the better option to get downtown. I prefer a 20 to 30 minute ride on the GO Train than a 90-minute commute on the TTC. However, traveling from Union station to north Scarborough on GO Transit costs $5.25. If you need to transfer to the TTC you have to pay the full TTC fare. It is unlikely that many folks in Scarborough are willing to pay or can afford the costs involved with using both systems.
I believe GO Transit and the TTC should work out an arrangement where commuters who transfer from GO to the TTC only pay 50 cents to get on the local transit system. This is how it works in York Region for example. I believe this would increase the number of Scarborough residents who would take GO Transit.
I agree with your view that GO needs to reexamine the role it plays in the northern 416 in terms of providing service. Until that happens, Scarborough commuters will continue to rely on the TTC to get them around the city.
Steve: The problem is the fare system. We are prepared to spend billions to duplicate capacity that GO should be serving via a subway network, but are not prepared to rejig fares so that there is not such a high penalty against riders from the outer 416 and for transfers between GO and TTC services.
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Someone “in the know” on Urban Toronto has commented that there seems to be some compromise in the works (despite the panel) involving council/mayor agreeing to a parking tax to generate revenue, and building the Sheppard subway as a 2-station extension to Victoria Park and a 2-station extension to Downsview as a spur off the Spadina line (north of the existing Downsview platform). Not sure if that wipes the Finch LRT or just the Sheppard East …
Have you heard anything like this? Sounds intriguing … yet I have a hard time seeing either Ford agreeing to new taxes, or the Scarborough councillors agreeing to nothing but surface LRT in Scarborough, but lots of new subway in North York.
Steve: I might believe the Victoria Park extension if only I could believe the part about a new tax actually being approved. However, one big issue with any of the new taxes is that the geographic scope and length of time they would be in place to pay for the subway with small, painless nibbles on the taxpayer. There remains the question of value for money — no matter how we raise the funds, is a Sheppard subway the best use of $1-billion? It’s not the only transit project in town.
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Tomorrow is the day for decision. Despite all discussion and argument, neither side has changed its position. Consequently the decision of Council should be, either to proceed with Sheppard Subway extension to Victoria Park North station or else hold a municipal referendum on the issue held very quickly. This would give citizens a chance to resolve an issue that has become very murky. On one thing Rob Ford is correct. People who wouldn’t dream of using any other forms of public transit do use subways, because it is the only of getting to their destination in any reasonable length of time. Subways democratize people.
Otherwise if they try to overrun this issue against the mayor’s opposition they immediately turn attention away from transit policy into an adventure in political science. Pandora’s Box can open widely. There are countless bureaucratic and legal technicalities which can be used to block any work on this issue. Probably Council will simply issue ‘words of dismay’ and settle back into a frequent activity of Council — doing nothing at all. If subway can be extended to Victoria Park North station with a large ‘kiss and ride’ terminus and a multi-story parking garage, the extension will justify itself not on the day after opening but over longer term provide a major improvement for public transit in Toronto
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