The TTC has a report on its Supplementary Agenda for the June 2 meeting regarding the Unilever property at the foot of Broadview as a possible carhouse site.
During the initial search for new carhouse and maintenance sites, this property was rejected because the then-available acreage was too small. The situation has now changed, and quite a large block of property is available. However, the lead time to acquire and clear the site means that a new carhouse and maintenance facility could not be ready in time for the delivery of the Flexity LRV fleet.
All the same, it would be worthwhile investigating this property as a long-term site for a new carhouse replacing Russell and/or Roncesvalles once the high-floor fleet is completely retired. This would allow redevelopment of two choice pieces of property on Queen Street.
Those familiar with the old Lever Bros. property know it is bordered by Sunlight Park Blvd., a street named after a well-known product. If this does become a carhouse, that would make a fitting and historical name.
Of course, with that BMW dealership next door, the carhouse would have to feature a large window framing an LRV looking out onto the DVP!
Steve Munro 
Actually, the street is named after the location – on the grounds of the former Lever Bros. plant, if I’m not mistaken – of one of the first baseball “stadiums” in Toronto.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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I find this is very interesting considering that there’s been past talk on this blog before about Sunlight Park/Eastern as a potential loop site (as an alternative to the TPA site further north along Broadview).
It’s not explicitly stated, but I get the understanding from the report that a turn from Eastern Ave Eastbound into the carhouse is too tight (acute angle) and therefore not feasible.
If, hypothetically, there’s bidirectional track on Broadview for a Sunlight Park Loop anyway, I wonder how the expenses would compare with a shorter route between the two properties (loop and carhouse) where Eastern Ave Westbound provides a carhouse exit, but the entrance is provided by acquiring land that used to be a CN Spur at the northeast part of the BMW dealership and cutting out a new railway underpass for an eastbound carhouse entrance. It’s a lot less track compared to a route along Booth when Broadview trackage both ways is already present, even though a new railway underpass isn’t cheap (but would involve the least amount of infrastructure outlay by volume).
This really is an ideal site for a carhouse given it’s isolated location while still having rail access by the Toronto Harbour Commission yard if this site were to accept deliveries to a carhouse there (the same track can reaches across the street from the Ashbridges site as well).
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The report says that non-service tracks are required between Eastern and Queen via either Broadview or Booth. But these sections of Broadview and Booth are residential streets according to Google Streetview. Wouldn’t there be the noise/traffic issue as on Leslie?
Steve: Booth would definitely be a problem. Broadview is already a busy street and I don’t think the streetcars would make much difference.
If the first LRV arrives a few years before the estimated 2016 completion date, wouldn’t that be a problem?
Steve: Yes. That’s one reason why the TTC does not like this site. I don’t propose it as an initial carhouse, but simply mention it as a central location for possible expansion and/or replacement of one of the old carhouses whose property could be redeveloped.
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The TRCA has an interest in this property as the site of a berm to channel stormwater from the Don River. The berm can’t be built until the mouth of the Don is redesigned. The berm is needed to prevent flood waters from impacting neighbourhoods south of Eastern Ave as far east as Leslie Street. I am unsure as to the dimensions of the proposed berm but the area required may make it unsuitable to also house a car barn. Something to keep in mind.
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IF (that’s if?) this site was considered, I would want to see it looked at with the BMW site; with an eye to the full extension of Broadview (and dual-directional track on same) as has long been envisioned, to Lakeshore.
Environmentalists have long coveted the western part of this site as part of the lower Don Valley.
Not directly for use as valley parks space (though that’s a fine second choice), but rather for shifting the Don Roadway to the east, thus creating new land beside the river for habitat and for meandering the stream.
I think there might well still be ample space for an LRT facility; but these things should all be considered together, rather than on a piecemeal basis.
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Replacement of Roncesvalles? So all storage would be east of the Don? Seems like a recipe for lots of deadheading. I’d replace Ronces with something west of Humber Loop.
Also, can’t imagine Cinespace being thrilled about the noise level likely to come from a major streetcar facility. From a non-transit point of view, there’s a case for saying the City should be helping Unilever replace the tenant with another industrial concern – god knows there are few sites in Toronto left into which residential has yet to encroach and demand the retreat of nasty making of things. While a streetcar yard might fit the description of industrial, the continued existence of Roncesvalles and Russell show the possibility of coexistence
On the plus side, the railyard immediately south of the area shown has been ripped up I believe, so in the event that TTC wanted to acquire it it might be possible to use some of that too even just for staff parking or something. Also, who wouldn’t love the irony of punching a streetcar line from Broadview through BMW’s car park on its way to an underpass of the rail embankment?
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Something else that may be worth considering with the Unilever site is that there is a rumour floating around that CN is considering abandoning the railway yard on the south side of the property due to the continued decline of customers in the portlands.
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I can’t see Rocesvalles Carhouse going under. But if this location gets full approval and Russell Carhouse closes permanently, the real estate agencies would have a field day on the Russell property because of it’s property value. Plus, the Sunlight location would benefit all 504, 505 cars saving driver times to and from the yard. The 501, 502, 503 and cars would see adjustments to its schedules. The 506 cars would loose since all cars going to and from Main Station would benefit since turning cars hasn’t been done full time since the deletion of the Harbord streetcar service. But, all cars going to High Park would have to use Parliament because they can’t turn west off Broadview unless the change the intersection again. Plus this location could also take more 510 cars off the Roncesvalles hands.
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This is clearly a valuable site that needs to look at carefully with an open mind. As noted, it borders the CN Rail Yard which is not much used and, if not completely closed, could well be shrunk. The site may well be a good long-term bet as a car-house (replacing Russell), some of it may be needed for the Lower Don and Don Mouth changes and the flood-protection berm. Some might be useful for GO as it is linked to their (new) Don Yard.
Though I have doubts about the TTC’s ability to predict how long things will take, I agree with the staff report that says it’s not possible to get it ready for the arrival of the new streetcars but this should not simply be the end of it. The site and its possible uses should be looked at globally with all the ‘players’ at the table. (City, TTC, Metrolinx, CN, TRCA etc)
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The railyard immediately to the south of the property is not CN’s (or CPR’s) to abandon.
It is owned by the Toronto Harbour Commission as are all of the trackage to the east and south. So long as there are industries in the area that require rail service, the yard will continue to exist.
Mind you, at the rate that the amount of track has been dwindling, it may not be too much longer until it is gone.
Should a streetcar storage facility be built at the former Lever Bros. plant, it could open up some interesting track layouts. It may not be a bad idea, for instance, for the TTC to construct a track connection along Commissioners and Don Roadway to connect the two. That way, if one connection to the system is unavailable, the other can still be used to get the equipment into and out of service.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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The old Lever Bros. site sounds very interesting especially considering the likely availabliity of the THC Keating Yard adjacent to it. Further, remediation of the site would be easier (and cheaper) for industrial use compared to residential. Also, I note the proposed Ash Bay location is acknowledged as being unable to accommodate the required amount of equipment. How strange the TTC would propose building a new facility that cannot be built large enough to hold the required quantity of cars. As for building both the Ash Bay and Lever sites, the reason the Fez City location was nixed at the last moment is because in the event of a power failure near Bathurst and Lake Shore nothing would get out on to the streets. With one car barn in the east and one west then at least some cars could be run.
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Since the new east end carhouse is to be built near the Ashbridge’s Sewage Treatment Plant, a west end carhouse could have been designated near the Humber Sewage Treatment Plant. Unfortunately, most of the land around it is not big enough for it. Unless the Queensway Food Terminal moves out or they build on top of the sewage plant.
Having said that, the Roncesvalles carhouse is a fine location as is. When they rebuild it, couldn’t they build a second floor for offices?
Steve: I have yet to see a proposed layout for Ronces with an all LFLRV fleet in it, although one is supposed to exist. It’s an oddly shaped site, and whether its layout can be improved while keeping it partly in service is hard to say. If the TTC could find some industrial property in the west end, I bet they would get a bundle for the Ronces site for condos.
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I agree that Ronces is a great location and also agree with the idea of a multi-storied approach, and that point was even raised at this past Commission meeting with a reference to Hillcrest by a deputant. That said, it would be challenging to keep Ronces partially in service while such dramatic construction takes place, although, while restrictive in movement options, should still be feasible, as entrance/exit pairs are available both on The Queensway and on Roncesvalles Ave.
However, it is worth noting that building two-storey transit facilities is expensive – rail vehicles are heavy, even when preceded by the word “light.” Even Vincent Yard is only partially elevated at its entrance to the west (…and partially buried to the east). In order to pay for it, and taking Steve’s condo point off on a tangent, building a mixed-use condo/office mid-rise complex on top of a two-storied LRV facility is something that I’d like to see explored, as something comparable has been done successfully in Paris (with their Lagny facility). I’d point to the difference in elevation between the carhouse access off of The Queensway versus that at Sunnyside loop; part of the change in grade is existing.
The other thing to keep in mind is that, as revealed by past statements in question-answer sessions between staff and commissioners, the TTC has only come up with enough space for 204 LRVs at its existing properties. System growth (i.e. expansion of the legacy system, like East Bayfront, Cherry St, St. Clair W. extension, etc.) does not have room in the current plan, meaning that TTC needs yet another carhouse site in any event. It’s a question of “when,” not “if.”
I’m also intrigued by DavidC’s comment implying the prospect of TTC and GO collaborating on the Lever Bros.’ site. The need to expand GO’s Don Yard, in the long term, is quite pressing. Having a TTC LRV facility beneath a GO Rail layover facility extended across the Don River is, while certainly challenging from potential conflicts in structural and track layout design perspectives, potentially a great example of space management in the waterfront, particularly if the BMW property is taken as part of the package and, like Ronces, something is done overtop (assuming GO is electric only in this part of the facility). There’s a lot that could be done with that, but GO and TTC first have to acknowledge that one-another exists.
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Just wondering, are rail yards developable for other uses, like residential or commercial? Has building whole structures above yards/carhouses been done before elsewhere?
Steve: It is technically possible, but much easier to do as a brand new development where one does not have to keep an existing site in operation during construction.
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Steve comments:
Hmm, put streetcar tracks back on Dundas north of Bloor. There are industrial areas along the rail corridor. Or via Runnymede to St. Clair. (I remember when they tore out the never-used tracks on Runnymede.)
There’s also lots of vacant industrial land in New Toronto, but it’s too isolated from the rest of the system–a problem along Queensway or Lake Shore would cut it off.
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Jacob Louy says:
June 3, 2010 at 2:51 am
Does anyone remember “Eaton’s Davisville”? I remember when when I was in high school a proposal, from Eaton’s I believe, to build a retail complex over Davisville Yard that would be at the same level as Chaplin Crescent. There seems to be no end of schemes, what is lacking is an actual application, at least in Toronto.
Ed says:
June 4, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Have you been up there lately? Most of the vacant industrial land isn’t vacant or industrial anymore. I also vaguely remember a scheme at one time to redevelop Roncesvalles and move the car house out to the Ontario Food Terminal area. While I would hate to loose the food terminal I fear that its days might be numbered because of redevelopment. If they could get a strip along the railway right of way perhaps they could put parking above and whatever else closer to the Queensway. There have been scores of plans to build new things in Toronto, unfortunately few get beyond the model stage.
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I personally think the lever ponds site should be used as a subway yard. We will need capacity expansion soon and if the DRL gets of f the ground, then this site is ideal…
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The Toronto Baseball Grounds, as they were known, were original home of the first Maple Leafs.
The park was named Sunlight after Lever Bros. bought Comfort Soap from Pugsley Dingman. What is now named Sunlight Park Blvd. was Eastern Ave. before the diversion. Could we not bury all the tracks and the DVP there, covered by a renewed riverside parkland?
Call it Sunlight if you like.
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