On March 22, the Toronto Public Health Department hosted a meeting at City Hall regarding the issue of clean trains in the Weston corridor.
I was not able to attend, but Robert Wightman sent the following report.
I was at the meeting at city hall tonight and a few interesting things came up.
1 Prof. Christopher Kennedy, Civil Engineering U of T, said that far side stops on centre reservation LRT lines were a bad idea.
2 The number of 480 trains per day is only valid if GO gets every commuter to take the train downtown. They are only going to run an extra 10 to 15 GO trains per day. They were designing for the “worst” or “Best” case scenario. Gary McNeil from GO/Metrolinx said they did not have the capacity at Union for this many trains, no kidding.
3 Gary McNeil gave the impression that GO/Metrolinx really doesn’t know where it is going or what its real direction is. He did say that GO is inter regional as is not interested in providing service within the 416, but if the TTC wants to build a rapid transit line up the corridor they could tunnel under the rail right of way. GO is unwilling to consider anything that is not mainline railway compatible even if they own the entire corridor and have enough tracks to keep regular freight and passenger equipment off them.
4 SNC Lavalin is looking at a mainline version of the Ottawa Talent cars instead of recycled Budd Cars.
5 The Air Rail Link must be running for the Pan Am Games.
6 GO transit has NOT bought the Oakville Sub or any other tracks along the Lake Shore from CN but they are in negotiations for any and all lines that CN or CP will sell them. The guy beside me told me this. I think that his name was Bob Prichard.
7 McNeil said the electrification study should be done by December and that GO and MPI will have a tier 4 version of the MP40 Locomotive ready in about a year for testing.
The crowd was remarkably civil considering the fact that 99% thought that GO Metrolinx had been treating them like mushrooms, keeping them in the dark and feeding them manure.
If anyone else wishes to contribute observations, please do so in the comment thread.
Steve Munro 
Interesting remark re: TTC tunneling under the Weston rail corridor if they wish to build rapid transit…
begs a few questions…
1 – is the TTC looking into the Weston rail corridor for the western leg of the DRL?
2 – it seems like Metrolinx is leaving the TTC to it’s own by letting them decide whether or not they want to build an RT line up the Weston corridor. Isn’t Metrolinx the regional transportation planning authority? And shouldn’t they have a more assertive stance on rapid transit expansion in Toronto, especially along a corridor where they will provide regional service, as well as private sector service?
Steve: Metrolinx and GO still have not really merged their planning. Part of the problem, I think, is that GO’s plans are rooted in what they can achieve realistically given the historical level of commitment (or lack of it) to transit, while The Big Move is founded on a much higher level of spending and some dubious planning.
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To be fair, the comment about the TTC tunnelling was thrown out by Mr. McNeil after being bombarded with questions and suggestions that the line could have more stops if electrified and could then serve more 416 commuters including a stop in Parkdale. He was, I think, getting tired of his standard reply of either “we are studying that”, “the study is not finished yet”, or ” that is not our mandate”. When asked again about running the DRL along it he said that the TTC could tunnel under it if they wanted to use the corridor.
The biggest problem seemed to be that GO only knows how to build and operate main line rail commuter service or interregional buses and they are very good at that. They are not very good at thinking out side of the box. GO has not looked at the possibility of taking two tracks from the 5 to 8 that they are going to run up the corridor and operating a totally segregated service to the airport and Bramalea station. They could do this without running on any CN owned track and have a high speed inner end commuter service and they could still run the diesel service beyond Bramalea.
With a segregated right of way they could operate equipment that would not need to meet the buff loading requirements of the FRA and its Canadian equivalent which I think is being increased to 1 200 000 pounds. This would reduce the cost of EMU’s significantly, as well as their weight and energy requirements. GO also thinks that they are going to recoup the costs of upgrading the line to carry the ARL from trackage access fees, good luck!
Steve: As I have said elsewhere, GO and Metrolinx planning does not seem to have gelled at all, and the holes in the Metrolinx model become more and more obvious as time passes. Their concept of “regional” versus “local” traffic preserves the artificial distinction of the 416/905 boundary, and avoids looking at transportation in a truly “regional” context.
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Gary McNeil would never allow GO to be more than a pure commuter service. He needs to go look at cities with real regional rail, where telephone area codes don’t determine service levels.
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I was also there.
1. Very disappointing that Mike Sullivan, who let’s face it has been doing this awhile, said that we could electrify the ARL for $150m. At best, that’s the number to electrify the track, not all the way back to Willowbrook or to construct a separate electric yard.
2. McNeil did a poor sales job on the electrification study, did not go into detail as to what was being considered (did not refer people to the Lakeshore study to give them an idea of what was coming down the pipe).
3. Gord Perks made a snide comment about how GO was doing nothing about reducing vehicle demand whereas TC was taking lanes out of roads. This was sneaky because (a) St. Clair shows that cars are still in charge at CofT unless proven otherwise and (b) McNeil’s organisation doesn’t have the power to force lane reductions on QEW/427 in concert with increased GO capacity. If Metrolinx had Translink’s powers, on the other hand…
4. Going home on the subway, it also occurred to me that McNeil wasn’t doing a lot to defend the ARL concept. As it’s going to be a P3 anyway, you could understand if he was to openly say “you need to ask SNC-L about that” but it wasn’t until near the end of the night that he noted that ARL is a federally driven project. Could it be that GO would be quite happy for the ARL to collapse under public pressure? Surely not.
5. As an example of this, McNeil seemed happy to separate the “10 trains” GO would be adding from the “140 trains” of the ARL – despite the fact that his 10 trains would likely be burning 6-8x the amount of diesel per run that a 2-car train would.
6. McNeil came over quite wonkish overall given the number in the crowd who were looking for some kind of touchy feely response (one person actually said something along those lines from the podium), but in fairness he was taking a magazine full of bullets for Kathleen Wynne, who turned up at the back of the room, waved and said not one word.
7. McNeil actually said the following sentence: “We’re focused on the long-distance commuter”. Average trip distance 33km, spacing 3km. This won’t surprise anyone following the discussion about flat fare increases.
8. During my time at the podium I pointed out to Dr. McKeown that the Lakeshore is seeing train-equivalent numbers now Georgetown won’t see for 5 years+, so if he could start worrying about our air quality in that zone rather than fixating on Weston that would be terrific, and repeated the comment I have made here previously that a mile of electric on Lakeshore is going to save more emissions and transport more people electrically than any other line.
9. I noted that we should beware scaring the crap out of people who live near the newer/future GO tracks in places like Bolton and Kitchener by labelling GO trains are killers. I also took Chris Kennedy’s comment about “quality of place” defined by electric vs diesel amiss, since I had arrived at the meeting in a 6 Bay GM bus which probably had a lot less emission controls than an MP40, judging by how much a muffler for one costs vs one for an Orion 7.
10. There were some people trying to bring up the fact that GO trains add to peak energy demand (which means Oakville and Portlands gas stations) but then other folks started talking about how we could power everything off Niagara Falls or flooding Northern Ontario. Unfortunately a wide-ranging meeting is bound to lack focus on technical issues but that one won’t go away.
Steve: It is quite fascinating how one part of Metrolinx says that the ARL is a federally-forced project, while the feds disavow any connection to it, and others at Metrolinx say the whole thing is being driven at the provincial level. More and more i get the sense that either Gary is badly out of touch, or that Metrolinx really speaks with two unco-ordinated voices.
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@Matt
McNeil said DRL was not in big move because TTC only brought it up after it was published. They are looking at it for the Big Move 2nd Edition, and he mentioned the possibility of routing it under the Georgetown alignment.
Steve: Gary does not know what he is talking about. The DRL is in the 25-year plan, shown on the maps as a U-shaped line from the Danforth subway to somewhere near Dundas West Station.
“A new subway service in the King/Queen corridor in Downtown Toronto will provide relief to the Bloor/Danforth subway line and greatly improved service in the downtown core.” (Taken from the Big Move web page.)
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“He did say that GO is inter regional as is not interested in providing service within the 416”
Asinine … how can I travel inter-regionally if all the trains run express through my local station! What, I’m supposed to travel 40-minutes the wrong way on subway to take my 50-minute train trip?
Steve: This shows how badly Metrolinx is out of step with what “regional” really means. They are perpetuating the same distinction for which they so often assail the TTC and the artificial 416 boundary.
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If the TTC uses the Weston corridor for rapid transit, it would be a bad compromise. The stations would all be off to the side of neighbourhoods instead of at central locations at major intersections. Transfers to surface routes could also be more of a challenge.
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Several other interesting comments from McNeil including he would be interested in running the air rail ‘shuttles’ under GO if they would let him.
The most time-sensitive remark was his comment that they are going to test Tier 4 diesel on the Georgetown south line (or should we say ‘test track?’) and monitor it AFTER the electrification study is completed. So the planning minds at Metrolinx have built in another roadblock to delay any decisions on electrifying Georgetown. I suppose this means the Province does not need to make decisions on budget before the Provincial election and there will be little time left to do anything but diesel for Pan Am. The planning games being played to rationalize diesel decisions are badly in need of a major corrective.
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If the air rail ‘shuttles’ are indeed the future of regional rail transport as Mr Prichard has described them to the Toronto Board of Trade, let’s electrify the air rail link NOW as Toronto’s demonstration to the world. The Pan Am bid book has the link committed by 2015. Electrification can be fit into the Pan Am and stimulus budgets. The electrification study can be called for any early report on this project as part of its overall work. Let’s stop stalling and get it done.
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So, does moving people from Union to Pearson count as inter-regional or not? (Technically, it is not “within” the 416).
Also, there are 16 GO stations in Toronto, more than any other muncipality or region. GO already moves people from one part of Toronto to another.
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Number 4 is encouraging. The Talents are pleasant, comfortable units, and the noise levels (inside at least) are better than some electric trains I’ve been on.
Of course, the Talents already ~are~ main-line stock, with the modifications from Deutsche Bahn specification not going far beyond locking the door to the toilet, but it’s a bit speculative to assume that Bombardier can or will produce a version that meets the built-like-a-tank idea of safety standards that’s in place here.
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Thanks Robert for the insight & notes.
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Is the ‘Bob Prichard’ mentioned in item 6 Robert Prichard, President and CEO of Metrolinx?
The Air Rail Link will be completed prior to the Pan Am Games. Expect Metrolinx to worry about schedule more than costs on this project, and expect it to suck funding and cancel/delay less critical projects.
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Tom West says:
March 23, 2010 at 11:34 am
Yes but try and go from one station to another if one’s destination isn’t Union or on the Lakeshore line and do it within a period less than 6 hours.
Matthew Phillips says:
March 23, 2010 at 12:42 pm
One and the same. He came in sat down beside me and introduced himself.
He said he was there to get a feel for the public mood. He also kept sending memos to the front whenever a federal or provincial politician entered. He was the one that made sure that the minister of transportation was introduced.
One problem that I have noted at several different PIC’s was that people are not willing to compromise at all. It is “MY WAY or don’t do it”. One common attitude was that all trains in the corridor had to be electric and the money would have to be found to electrify all the way to London and Sarnia if necessary. If they live next to a rail line then they have to expect some trains to run on it; however GO’s stupid statements that there would be 460 or more trains was a wee bit over what most people would consider acceptable.
Similar problems are occurring with the Eglinton LRT. The idea of a surface run through Mt. Dennis is absurd but stating that the only acceptable alternative is extending the subway to Jane is not reasonable. No one seemed to be willing to consider the elevated line across Black Creek Drive and the a short tunnel under Mt. Dennis. Similar problems have surfaced (no pun intended) along the Sheppard and S(L)RT lines with (fortunately only some) people wanting full subway.
Part of the problem is created by the attitude of the operating entities, Metrolinx and the TTC that have a “trust us, we know what is best” attitude and their apparent ability to consult without really listening to what is said. The answers that they come back with are either so obviously a crock or they don’t put in enough explanation to back their opinion that no one trusts them.
I agree with Mark that the cost of $150 million to electrify the ARL is leaving out a lot of other costs such as he mentions but the ARL line is going to have it’s own yard on the extension to the airport so it would not need to go to Willowbrook initially.
GO only needs only to double track the Weston Sub from Union to Bramalea in order to run all the service that it foresees in the next 10 years. It is the ARL with its 15 minute service for 20 hours a day that is adding to the cost and complexity. I would like to see the amount of that extra cost that will be recovered from Lavalin’s “corridor access fees.” For some reason GO/Metrolinx decided to make use of this nice wide corridor by totally filling it with heavy rail lines. They admitted that Union can’t handle any where near the number of trains that it could carry so why do we need 8 or 9 tracks trough Parkdale and 4 or 5 through Weston plus the 2 for CP? Somewhere along the line GO/Metrolinx started listening to their own publicity and it went to their head.
They need to scale back the Georgetown South Service Expansion plan to something that is reasonable and to charge SNC Lavalin for ALL the additional cost required to run the ARL. I bet that it would die a quick death unless SNC Lavalin could talk one of the senior levels of Government into forcing GO/Metrolinx into paying for it; but, alas poor Yorick, the Pan Am Games are coming.
Steve: I would not consider “to consult without really listening” to be an “ability” except in the most detrimental possible sense. Do they have special courses to teach “transit professionals” how to do this?
As for the construction in the Georgetown South Corridor, the engineers took the future demands Metrolinx claims it would require, and built their infrastructure to match. They didn’t care about Union Station as that was non in scope, aka “somebody else’s problem”.
It would be interesting to calculate what proportion of the Pan Am Games traffic to Pearson will head downtown, and how much service would be needed to actually carry them.
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Steve said:
If they run Budds, the cars will have a capacity of about 75 each with the centre sliding doors and the luggage racks next to the doors. A fully loaded 2 car train carrying 150 people at $22.00 per passenger would generate $3300.00 in revenue. If all 140 trips were fully loaded in both directions that would carry 21 000 passengers creating about $460 000 in gross revenue. I cannot believe that they would approach 1/4 of this so they will generate between $100 000 and $120 000 per day which means that they have been smoking something funny. I cannot believe that they would get anywhere near this amount.
I think that they have fallen victim to the problem with all studies when you ask some one if they would do something that would benefit(?) the environment they say they would but when it actually comes to doing it far fewer comply. The only way this makes money is if they get the trackage rights for next to nothing.
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Some observations on last night’s panel discussion.
Mx are going to be testing Tier 4 prototypes within the next year. They are buying (or have bought) air monitoring stations. Why are they doing this if electrification is still a possiibility? Because it’s not. Let’s face it, they are going to push diesel through. The electrification study is costing 4 million! It’s going to go on a shelf while they say “maybe next time people, like 2025”. GO is very good at this, they have been doing it for 40 years.
Mx are giving us diesel that nobody wants and using our money to do it. In the meantime, here we are trying to drag these squareheads into the 21st century. What despicable politics!
Steve: I am astounded by an approach that sees Metrolinx publish a scheme for massive investment and improvement in regional transit, and then turns around and disowns the train frequency and pollution data based on their own plans. In effect, they are saying “we will never build it, so don’t worry”. How much more of “The Big Move” will never get built?
Unfortunately, Metrolinx claims of all the pollution they will avoid by redirecting riders to their Big Network won’t materialize because they will never actually build the network and run the services they claimed. The government tries to take credit for fighting pollution and gridlock, but doesn’t actually deliver. A familiar story.
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Steve: “I would not consider “to consult without really listening” to be an “ability” except in the most detrimental possible sense. Do they have special courses to teach “transit professionals” how to do this?”
It is a course that ALL professional faculties run for their students. “How to appear concerned when you don’t really give a rat’s ass.”
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jeff says:
March 23, 2010 at 6:07 pm
They are doing this because the then minister of the environment told them, they had to. Will it produce anything useful? Probably not. The really big shame is that GO Metrolinx cannot think of anything outside of mainline heavy rail and therefore will probably only look and electric locomotive hauled trains instead of EMU’s.
In my last post I forgot to say that I got an “A” in the course of “How to pretend you give a rat’s ass when you don’t. Fortunately for me the following summer I had job in Motive Power with CN Great Lakes Region and discovered that these “uneducated electricians” knew a helluva lot more than I did. I was smart enough to realize that there was more than one way to get an education and have never underestimated the knowledge of someone who learned by practical experience instead of by my “infinitely superior theoretical education.” (JOKE)
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I have a difficult time believing how deep GO management has their heads in the sand. They are convinced that the only trains on the planet are 10-car long, locomotive-hauled monster trains.
Meanwhile their own study shows that electrification will pay for itself in 10 years of operating savings. How they can continue to spout the “too expensive” excuse is mind-boggling.
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Very simply put- if the rail corridor is built as diesel, it will damage the west-end of Toronto through noise and vibration, and if it built as electric, it will enable my neighbourhood to revitalize and intensify.
When I said this to Gary McNeil, he said “This is not how I see it”. I said many condos have been built within 15 metres of the expansion. We simply do not matter to GO, and he admitted this to me directly.
That GO feels that they have the right to build air monitoring stations and test Tier 4 fuel proves that we can continue not to trust that they have our best interests in mind. They are always pushing the boundaries of legitimacy and accountability toward the public, and when does it end?
Steve: Gary McNeil has to learn that every time he says, in effect, “that’s not my problem” he drives a stake into the plans of anyone who hopes for credibility in a provincial takeover of TTC affairs. Imagine the same attitude from someone who wants to build a subway through your back yard.
Having said that, the City Council that approved those condos, and the developers who hope to sell them, need some serious questioning. Nobody would dream of building beside an airport, for example, but they don’t bother to check on the future of a wide rail corridor.
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The Tier 4 engines (on the GO trains at any rate) won’t go to waste. As I pointed out during the meeting – GO will be running significant numbers of diesel services well beyond even the most optimistic electrification rollout short of being annexed by China (Peterborough, Niagara, Kitchener, Bolton etc.) Electrification will just mean that once the F59 fleet is replaced the numbers of MP40s will level off somewhat.
Even if the Budds were replaced with EMUs, I would argue there are several places where Tier 4 Budds could be offloaded to even if fitted as short-range (like the Fraser Valley in Vancouver, or the Ottawa Valley).
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The $150 Million I was referring to concerning the electrification of the line was merely quoting Metrolinx’s own documentation, to show yet another obfuscation. Rob MacIsaac said it would cost tens of billions to electrify to Brampton.
My other point was that their own document (the EA) states that they can run all day service without building a single additional track. In addition, CN’s service evalution undertaken in 2002 states that 20 minute ARL service can run in conjunction with all-day GO service with only one additional track. Most of the bridges can withstand one additional track without modification, and with a stop in Weston, the level crossings can remain with 20 minute ARL service and only hourly GO service. A whole lot of expenditure can be avoided if only they were honest about their needs.
If they are to quadruple the tracks, it makes sense to separate out the heavy rail and use one track and a couple of passing spurs for a light rail airport/Brampton vehicle. But making sense is not part of the metrolinx or governments’ mandates.
Here’s a rundown of the various claims by Metrolinx.
Feb 2009 – Public Open Houses – 136 trains from Georgetown, plus 12 from Bolton, with approx 60 on ‘opening day’ in 2014.
April 2009 – Public Open Houses – 112 from Georgetown, 12 from Bolton, 59 from Georgetown on ‘opening day’.
May 2009 – Metrolinx advised the Cruickshank development in Weston that the maximum number of trains they should expect in the long term future was 40.
July 2009 – Environmental Project Report – 112 in the body, but only 109 in the air Quality assessment, in the future build (2021) scenario. Again, 59 as of opening day.
But the Air quality assessors were told by Metrolinx that without building any tracks, GO could run 42 Georgetown trains (up from 19) and Via 12 (up from 6). This would provide hourly all-day service in both directions, and more trains in rush hours.
Oct 2009 – Gary McNeil advises the press that the expected number of trains on opening day would be 29.
Mar 22, 2010 – Gary McNeil confirms the maximum future service level will be 40 trains (hourly all day service).
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@Save my Neighbourhood,
Gary McNeil basically told you, you are wrong. CP/CN won’t be running electric trains. The cantenary poles of electrication will most likely be an eye-sore compariable to the Gardnier. Electrication won’t fix within existing RoW widths. Your neighbourhood will lose 1-5m of lot area adjacent to the corridor. While I await more positive outcomes from the December GO Electrification Study, the above reasons are all valid points why Gary might not agree that it will revitalize and intensify your neighbourhood.
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About the claim that GO could run hourly service with the existing track.
The time for a GO train to get from Etobicoke North (mile 11) to Union Station (mile 0) is 26 minutes. The line is single tracked from Woodbine east (mile 12.5) to Keele (mile 5.3). While it would be technically possible to run an hourly headway over this stretch the trains would have to pass just west of Woodbine East. The inbound train would arrive at the time it needed to depart and this is not reasonable so GO would need another train sitting in Union to head westbound while the train that just came in would have to sit for almost an hour. If there were also hourly service on Uxbridge then the train could continue up there but the timing of the meet between Woodbine West (mile 14.1) and Woodbine East (mile 12.5) would be very tight. Any problem would throw the service of for the rest of the day.
On top of all this you need to add a few VIA trains plus the rush hour service to Georgetown and it is impossible to run without double tracking. GO is right in saying that you could run hourly service to Georgetown over the single track section; they just forget the fact that you could not run any other trains. Throw in 4 ARL trains per hour and you would be hard pressed to run GO, VIA and ARL on 2 tracks in the rush hour given the time and distance that must be maintained between trains following main line train rules.
The problem here is “Mind Set.” GO will only think of running main line rail service and the TTC will only think about running a subway if it has 800 m or so station spacing so that they can remove some surface line. A truly effective DRL should be somewhere between these services. A high speed electric service from the airport and Bramalea that runs on totally segregated track to downtown Toronto. Instead of going into Union Station, tunnel under Adelaide and make connections at St. Andrew and King. Stations would only be at major cross streets on a 1.5 to 2 km spacing to keep up speed. The line should continue out the east end to Agincourt after joining CP’s Belleville Sub at Don Mills road.
The major advantages are:
1. The line would not need to meet FRA buff loading requirements which would greatly reduce the weight and cost of the equipment.
2. The line would provide much faster service within the 416 than a subway to downtown and would be more frequent than a GO service
3. All seats would be transverse to provide a better level of comfort and it would be high platform to speed up loading.
4. None of these passengers would go into an already overloaded Union Station.
5. Over 90% of the trains on the corridor would be electric and the number of diesels would be almost the same as now.
6. It would be cheaper to operate and build than this monstrosity that SNC Lavalin, GO Metrolinx and the TTC would need to build to provide the same level of service.
7. It would make a much better use of the rail corridors.
Do I hold out much hope of this happening? NO! Metrolinx and the TTC can only think about and plan what they know; they seem incapable of looking at something that does not fit their preconceived ideas. They do not wish to be confused by facts.
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You are talking about a segregated track within the current RoW without emergency interchanges/switches? So if anything adverse happens, you have immediate service impacts or have the cost of frequent switches? I don’t think this matches with GO’s performance standards (92% of train trips or 87% in winter arriving within five minutes of their scheduled time). I don’t think GO often meets these standards, but if you don’t build to them, you’ll never make them.
I assume you are starting your tunnel at Dufferin? Or where does it surface? Seattle’s 3.15 mile LRT tunnel extension with 2 stations system (Westlake to the University of Washington) cost $1.7b. This seems comparable to what a 4.5 km tunnel from Dufferin to Yonge would cost, except urban tunnelling has the special challenge of requiring ground subsidence must be avoided. What route are you taking between Yonge and Don Mills? Tunneling that far will bring this into the price range of electrification of the Lakeshore line(s).
It’s far too late in the process of Georgetown South expansion to alter the fundamental details, such as routing. It would take years to restudy/design and fail to met the Ministerial promise of being ready for the Pan Am Games. Best case scenario: Oct 2011 Tories cancel ARL. A new EA will take a minimum of 6 months due to legislated review periods. Give 3 months to rough out your details into something substantial (tunnel depth, grading, equipment selection), and we are at July 2013. Tunnelling will take at least a year (rate of 10m per day). Then assuming a design-build for other works they will be completed in 12 months?
That said, it’s a very good idea, and I don’t see why it couldn’t be done independently to de-centralize Union Station and relieve the crush. I believe it is inevitable that GO electrifies, but believe network capacity issues (dual dedicated GO tracks) must be resolved first. Once funds have been spent on those issues, the barriers to electrification drop off significantly, if the surrounding communities are willing to trade part of their backyards for it.
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Matthew Phillips says:
March 25, 2010 at 9:59 am
Yes! I would run them between the CP’s Gault sub tracks (actually now GO’s) and the Weston sub until they split. North of the CP’s North Toronto Sub I would run up the west side of the corridor. There are no industries before Woodbine that I can recall on that side of the track. The line would be physically isolated from the mainline rail lines. It would be standard gauge, high platform but built to mainline rail loading gauge for dimensions, curvatures, switches etc. but since the lines are separated the cars would not need to be built to FRA buff loading standards and train separation would not be as great. The GO trains to Brampton and Kitchener would run on the other 2 tracks which would be built and run to FRA standards. Two tracks should be able to handle this service because it would all run express from where it met the electrified service to Union. If you wanted off in between then change trains.
Matthew Phillips says:
I would like to come up near Bathurst if possible and then swing north but I do not know if this can be done. Adelaide is mainly residential west of Bathurst. East of Yonge I would like to run on the north side of the Kingston Sub to west of Greenwood yard then tunnel up to run under Don Mills road to the CP’s Belleville sub then run on the north side of it to Agincourt. As far as I can tell there are no industries on that side. The TTC is talking about the DRL at least east of the downtown and has no real idea what to do west of there. This would make use of the tunnel they are already going to build and extend it way out into the 416 suburbs and a much lower cost and much higher speed than a regular subway. It would intercept a lot of people before they got to the Bloor Danforth and its increased speed would make changing trains attractive.
Steve: Not only is Adelaide west of Bathurst residential, there is a prominent Church at Portugal Square at the Bathurst/Adelaide intersection. I doubt the community would want it converted to a DRL station.
The GO trains that would be run to Peterborough and North Oshawa on the CP could go down the Uxbridge sub and in on the Kingston sub. The line really does not follow one major road but it does go through or near a lot of intersection: Midland and Sheppard, Warden and Ellesmere, Victoria Park and Lawrence, Don Mills and Eglinton, Thornecliffe Park, Flemingdon Park, O’Connor and Pape(?), Bloor Danforth Subway, Pape and Gerrard, Queen, Yonge, University, Bathurst, Queen and Dufferin, Landsdowne, College and Dundas, Bloor Subway, St. Clair and Keel, Eglinton and Weston Road, Lawrence and Weston Road, Industrial areas in north Etobicoke, and Airport. I think that it should be possible to run it on the south side of the Weston sub and bring it into the south side of Bramalea Station where it would make connection to the regular GO service.
Metrolinx’ plan would completely rule out any other use of the Weston corridor and is gross overbuild. The TTC’s plan for a downtown relief line has no logical west end and would be too slow to be attractive as a transfer connection. The cost of building this would not be much different than the cost for electrifying GO’s Georgetown South Service Expansion and the TTC’s DRL. A lot of money would be saved in equipment and operating costs. It would provide better service and it would replace all but about 40 diesel trains a day on the Weston corridor which is about what they have now. If you were at last Monday’s meeting you know that Gary McNeil does not seem to be able to think out side of the main line railway box and the TTC is the TTC.
As a line to the airport it would be a lot more useful because it would make more connections and would also be of use to employees as well as plane passengers. The line has the capability if diverting up 30 000 pphpd away from Union Station from both the east and the west. As far as I can tell from Google’s satellite photographs there are no industrial leads off the south side of the right of way until just west of Martin Grove. It should be possible to either grade separate the lead or put in an interlocking that would allow the switcher to cross, but not run on, the electric lines. Since GO owns outright the Uxbridge sub, and the Newmarket sub they should look into converting these to non FRA compliant lines and limiting the times when the one or two freights a day can operate. It would reduce the equipment costs as wells as the cost of electrifying. The Uxbridge trains would have to connect into my DRL line.
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Two points:
1) Rolling stock: all this talk of a seperate RoW to bypass FRA regulations completeing ducks the issue. This is Canada – there is absolutly nothing to stop Transport Canada from allowing European-style rolling stock to be used. In fact, I understand that TC would allow such stock providing the user can prove it’s just as a safe as FRA-compliant stock – but without saying how to prove it. As the nation’s biggest passenger rail operator by large margin, GO Transit should be lobbying TC about this.
2) Tracks required: all you need is two tracks for CP, and two tracks for all the passenger operations. With modern signalling (i.e. 30 year old technology), you can easily have headways of three minutes to give 20 trains per hour each way. That would be more than enough for current and furture GO/ARL/VIA operations. (If express trains start being an issue, than a third passenger track might be needed in some places).
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I feel like electrification is a perfect project to apply road-tolls to. Basically between toronto/oakville it could be done with the idea being that tolls will be applied only on the qew/gardiner from say trafalgar to union…all money collected would go to converting the lakeshore to 10 minute electric service from 7am-7pm, road tolls would apply during that time and only for trips that are longer than the distances between two go stations (so local trips are not charged).
Once the electrification is paid for, tolls would be transferred to improving service on the connecting routes (so mississauga/oakville transit and potentially some ttc service).
The same could be done on the 427 once georgetown is ready to be electrified, as well as hamilton.
Basically you end up paying for better local environment, improved regional transit and less congestion…and eventually better local transit.
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Steve:
But it would be the nicest station in the entire region.
Tom West says:
March 25, 2010 at 3:26 pm
It is easier to play by their rules and run two separate rights of way than to try and get TC or the FRA to change their rules. They tend to go lock step because there is so much inter line operation. What we need is to go back to the rules that the interurbans operated by until they disappeared in the late 50’s. Rules are NOT going to change so stop wishing for that, instead play by their rules and do what is necessary to run the system the way you want. You will never get 3 minute headways on any line that is signalled for main line rail operation. It is technically possible but you are dealing with mindless bureaucrats so learn to play by their dumb rules.
Also you are not going to be able to run the GO trains to Georgetown/Kitchener on top of the locals to Bramalea and the airport. My line works within the existing rules. Yours requires rule changes which ain’t going to happen. This is not to say that yours are unreasonable in a rational world but TC and FRA will not go for them. The FRA is talking about making the buff loading requirements for mainline trains apply to transit operations because of the accident in the Washington Metro. You have to play within their rules however dumb they may be.
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Christopher Hume writes about the Metrolinx meeting in today’s Star.
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Steve: Not only is Adelaide west of Bathurst residential, there is a prominent Church at Portugal Square at the Bathurst/Adelaide intersection. I doubt the community would want it converted to a DRL station.
Undoubtedly one of the most complicated parts of an Adelaide alignment. However, if the station is located completely to the east side of Bathurst St, and on a bit of an angle, the curves appear to work, but it is quite tight.
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Robert Wightman wrote:
It is easier to play by their rules and run two separate rights of way than to try and get TC or the FRA to change their rules. They tend to go lock step because there is so much inter line operation.
The rules for passenger rail vehicles are completely separate from those for freight vehicles, and the number of passenger trains between the US and Canada is highly limited. If TC chanegd the rules to allow European-style stock, they could still allow FRA stock in order to cater for international passenger trains.
Rules are NOT going to change so stop wishing for that, instead play by their rules and do what is necessary to run the system the way you want.
The FRA are actively considering changing their rules, so I am not wishing for something that won’t happen 🙂 Being defeatist never helps. (I’m sure the save our streetcars group were told they were wishing for something that wasn’t going to happen.) Besides, changing the rules would allow for cheaper and safer trains – I don’t like seeing my taxes wasted on trains built to less safe standards.
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george Bell says:
I feel like electrification is a perfect project to apply road-tolls to.
SNCL already has the cash register on the 407. Why not up the rate today to cover electrification costs of ARL?
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Tom West says:
March 26, 2010 at 8:12 am
Yes, but from what i have read they are going to make them more stringent like upping the buff loading from 1 000 000 pounds 1 200 000. The NTSB is even looking at making the requirements for transit equipment higher because of the Washington Metro accident and the one the Boston Green line subway. The Ottawa O-Train has to ensure temporal separation of its equipment from freight trains on its line, not that I think any freights use it any more. With the railways running 12 000 foot plus long freights the cars have to be able to withstand a collision with them. It is much easier to ensure temporal of physical separation of the two services than to try and get TC and the FRA to change their minds.
I would love to see a change in rules by TC but I am not holding my breath for it. What I am proposing is possible, but unlikely with the current mindset of Metrolinx and the provincial government. It requires no change in legislation, just a “Paradigm Shift” by the powers that be, but that might be just as hard. The problem is that almost all the technical people cut their teeth on main line rail and they can’t think of anything else.
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You will never get 3 minute headways on any line that is signalled for main line rail operation.
So what about Metro North, the Long Island Railroad, or New Jersey Transit? For that matter, I think the Center City Tunnel in Philadelphia probably comes close too. I think the busiest diesel commuter line is the BNSF Line in Chicago. And there are plenty of examples outside the US, including the two tracks running to the four platforms of Fenchurch Street Station in London, which carry 20 trains per hour during the peak, and are signalled with plain old four-aspect signaling with AWS and TPWS.
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I said
anonymouse says:
March 27, 2010 at 1:38 am
From what I gather the Metro North lines mostly have cab signalling. This allows smaller block spacing and closer headways but I cannot find out how many tracks it takes to run their three minute head way. Most, not all, of these trains are EMU’s with a few Dual powered locomotive hauled trains.
SEPTA lines get down to 3 minutes a couple of times during the rush hour but again I cannot tell how many tracks they use; however Central Philadelphia handles just over 61 000 passenger boardings per day while GO has over 75 000 at Union.
BNSF in Chicago has headways varying between 4 and 6 minutes in their peak but again I do not know over how many tracks but they seem to be operating some short run locals plus at least two different express service so this implies at least two peak direction tracks.
The New York Metro North lines are mainly EMU’s and have cab signalling which gives them an operational advantage. SEPTA trains are all electric and mainly EMU. BNSF are diesel and get down to a 4 minute headway but on how many tracks. GO operates about 19 or 20 trains into Union from the west in the peak hour so they get down to about a 3 minute headway but on how many tracks.
Bringing in European train into the comparison is not relevant because they don’t have our archaic operating rules. I probably should have said that no one is willing to pay for an upgrade that would make 3 minute headways possible. If the FRA forces the US railroads to all go to PTC by 2015 at a cost of between $10 and $15 BILLION dollars, then you might be able to get close but as long as there are 12 000 foot long freights, or the possibility that they could operate on the line, emergency diversion, you will not get trains that close together. I am not saying that it is impossible to do technically but that it is impossible to do from a bureaucratic point of view. That is why I want a pair of tracks that are totally segregated from interaction with the mainline tracks. Since GO Metrolinx owns most of these corridors they should be developed that way and freights only allowed on when they will have NO chance of meeting a passenger train or have GO run short electrically hauled freight trains during the off peak like the interurbans used to do. If the trains were short then they could stop in a reasonable distance.
GO transit thinks like a railway and not like a rapid transit passenger network. They need to get some people on board who can do both but with the latest provincial budget it will probably become a moot point.
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This is a mostly triple-tracked line.
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Oh no! What if the CRTC was to change or erase the borders of area codes? Then Metrolinx and GO would be in deep doo-doo.
BTW – There is one exchange code that starts with 905 and is officially part of Bell Canada’s Toronto Rate Centre. Does Metrolinx know this? Many that reside in 905 have mobile phones or VoIP services with 416 telephone numbers.
Perhaps one day the Bellheads that hang around CRTC offices in the City Formerly Known as Hull will figure that one out and abolish the use of rate centres in the (over)charging of telephone services. That day will arrive before Metrolinx will begin treating ALL municipalities within the GTA equally.
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