The full version of the Benefits Case Analysis for the Yonge Subway extension to Richmond Hill is now available online. I will comment on it at greater length when I have the time to do so.
Notable in this report is the acknowledgement of the effect of this extension on the existing subway system and especially Bloor-Yonge Station. There are conflicting remerks in the BCA regarding the degree to which improved service on GO Transit to Richmond Hill can divert riding from the subway line. A major issue here is that the implementation of very frequent all-day “Express Rail” GO service to Richmond Hill is not contemplated in the Metrolinx plan until 2031, long after a subway extension would open.
Detailed work on a number of related proposals will continue, and Metrolinx expects that a full evaluation will be available in late 2010.
Steve Munro 
I look forward to the Richmond Hill GO BCA report. I’d be surprised to see the cost be significantly less than half a billion.
Steve: The TTC’s budget estimate is over $3-billion. Metrolinx has a lower figure partly due to timing differences, and partly to what components are included.
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The Yonge line is already nearly unusable for Toronto commuters inbound at rush-hour. My wife and I located to the Avenue line for that exact reason. We’ve since moved from there, which is fortuitous, since once Avenue is extended to the north, that will be as unusable as Yonge.
In short, these decisions are not made for any but political reasons, and Toronto ridings are so stable none of the parties has anything to gain by courting them with making Toronto as livable as once it was. The parties have something to gain in 905 riding, and will ^&%& us to kiss @$$.
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I like the part where they say LRT was not looked at because it forced two mode changes, one at Finch and another at the Richmond Hill Centre. I quess that it did not occur to them that they could run the LRT farther up Yonge and a good distance east and west out the old highway 7 corridor for $3 BILLION. (I wonder if the right of way to Sutton is still available?) York has made its mind up that it wants two subways, mainly at Toronto’s expense and that LRT is beneath their prestigious region. I hope that York or the Province is going to fork over the cash for this extension.
Steve: Yes, this is a continuation of the same BS the TTC used to claim that LRT was inappropriate because it had been studied and rejected almost two decades ago. The fact that the context was completely different — a loop subway line which obviously could only use subway technology — didn’t bother them one bit.
I have heard, and am trying to confirm, that Metrolinx has now moved the Richmond Hill subway off of its “top 15” list and out to the 25-year plan. More when I know definitely.
Updated October 30 at 10:00 am: Metrolinx has confirmed that they have not changed the priority of the subway extension, and any such decision would occur only after the detailed study of options for this corridor to take place over the next year.
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Why are we building a subway line if our entire plan is to divert people away from it?
Steve: There’s an argument to be made for better transit in the Yonge Street corridor north of Finch. We can debate how that capacity might be provided in another thread, but there’s no doubt the demand exists and will grow.
Implementing that new capacity will also bring more demand to the existing Yonge subway some of which will contribute to the peak point at Bloor-Yonge. For some time, planning for new transit routes focussed on suburban expansion with the assumption that there was enough capacity downtown, but this is no longer true. The same problem is developing at Union railway station for GO Transit.
Network planning was one of the goals of the Metrolinx regional plan, but we are still trapped in a planning and funding model that examines projects in isolation.
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I thought that Viva phase two was to provide for a dedicated right of way on Yonge Street and highway 7, initially for buses but for eventual conversion to LRT in Viva phase three. Are Metrolinx and York Region working on separate plans or is the Viva one dead?
Steve: It’s not dead, it’s merely resting, at least if you believe the plans. However, Metrolinx has never been particularly fond of LRT and only reluctantly were forced to support Toronto’s Transit City plans. This is the inevitable legacy of decades where “streetcars” were denigrated as expensive, second class transit.
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Funny how the fact that they can barely use buses gives them the right to be appeased with a subway. Doesn’t this remind anyone of the States at all? I can clearly recall being in Cleveland, talking to a concierge asking if it was possible to get to the shopping mall in question by transit (it was.) His reply? “Well, personally I don’t do the bus thing.” They have a subway. Need I say more?
And also, I think it would be pretty funny if when all was said and done concerning the Spadina Subway, we simply refuse to operate it until Toronto gets a better deal regarding the planned deficit.
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Steve wrote, “Metrolinx has never been particularly fond of LRT and only reluctantly were forced to support Toronto’s Transit City plans.”
That may be more or less true, but when York Region held an open house for the Don Mills/Leslie LRT plans (northern extension of the Don Mills Transit City line to Highway 7 and possibly to Major Mac), people asked why this was being looked at. Their answer: “Because Metrolinx wants us to.”
Of course, now the VivaNext material contains phrases like, “busways, subways, and LRT,” like it was their own idea, but naturally no consideration to LRT options on Yonge.
Further to Robert Wightman’s comment about just how much further than Yonge and 7 an LRT line could go for the same money, I have outlined this on the York Region Options page (http://lrt.daxack.ca/YorkRegion.html on the LRT Information Site) of my site. I’m planning on updating this page with revised figures, but the first part dealt with Yonge alone and proposed extending the subway to Steeles and using the $1 billion remaining for LRT. The error in that assumption was that a $2.4 billion project was divided up with $1.4 billion south of Steeles and the remainder north, which turns out to be backwards. Even with that error, and the project now looking more like $3 billion, LRT can reach farther that what I proposed (which was an underground connection at Steeles, then above ground to Major Mac AND an east-west line on Highway 7 from Dufferin to Leslie all for that $1 billion!).
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Leaving out LRT as an option is unacceptable. Was nothing learned from the past?
Somehow, I would not be surprised if this subway is not built, and we are stuck with the traffic mess on Yonge.
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J. Macmillan wrote:
I thought that Viva phase two was to provide for a dedicated right of way on Yonge Street and highway 7, initially for buses but for eventual conversion to LRT in Viva phase three. Are Metrolinx and York Region working on separate plans or is the Viva one dead?
Steve replied:
It’s (the Viva phasing plan) not dead, it’s merely resting, at least if you believe the plans. However, Metrolinx has never been particularly fond of LRT… <– emphasis and clarification added by me
The Yonge Street busway from Steeles to 7 was designed and close to tender ready when the political winds shifted; suddenly Thornhill wouldn't abide the traffic difficulties imposed by an at-grade solution.
Viva's plan was to progress to a subway some time in the future by building the demand (BRT to LRT to subway).
I don't remember the extent of the expected conversion from BRT to LRT, but I can't imagine it was ever contemplated to end the northward push at Yonge and 7. Major Mackenzie, maybe? Viva couldn't segregate traffic north of Major Mackenzie for buses, as I recall, so maybe LRT was never contemplated north of there.
There definitely is a difference in plans contemplated by Viva and those contemplated by Metrolinx, just as there is between TTC and Metrolinx or GO and Metrolinx…
As I regularly travel past/through the Richmond Hill Centre terminal / Langstaff station and work near Yonge and Sheppard, any modal improvement over the Viva mixed-traffic operation down Yonge is a win for me. I could even work with GO improvements (more shoulder service would be a start), even though I'd then have to transfer Oriole to Leslie… I just wish Metrolinx would pick one improvement and do it already.
Steve, I apologize if this is in here multiple times – the submit comment button didn't seem to work…
Steve: For some reason, your comment went into the spam bucket from which I have rescued it.
As for Viva and LRT, if there is a bona fide reason for not taking space in the middle of the road for a section, then put it underground (that’s what Transit City did), but don’t throw out the mode because of one section. Of course, buses cannot run underground and so a “prebuild” for a BRT scheme won’t work.
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I strongly believe that the Yonge corridor needs a subway and not an LRT system like some suggest on this site. Though LRT maybe more feasible in terms of cost it doesn’t address that type of commuting pattern that exist in that area. LRTs are meant for local trips and a majority of the people coming in from York Region will be using system for long haul trips. Also keep in mind the VIVA already plans several LRT/BRT projects for the Yonge/Highway 7 corridor beyond where the new subway line will be, so I don’t think local transit be so much of an issue in York Region anyways. My only issue is the phasing of this project in relation to the DRL and the Go Express Rail. I would hope Metrolinx prioritizes the DRL first followed by the Yonge Subway extension and then the GO Express Line.
On a side note is it me or has anyone noticed that with all the transit announcements we’ve been hearing about over the last 3 yrs (starting with the Spadina subway extension back in 2006) not one of these projects has started construction. I’m sorry but i don’t consider a couple of engineer marks on Sheppard Ave E progress, or better yet a sewage pipe replacement that would probably need replacement anyways before it burst in the winter “subway construction”.
Politicians say most of these project will completed by 2020 … I highly doubt it. I’ll be surprised if even half of these transit initiatives are completed.
Steve: The Spadina line is under construction. Utilities relocation is always part of any subway project, and you can’t dig the tunnel until you get everything else out of the way. The tunnel boring machines have been ordered. Stations on the line are in the design stage (there was a big debate at the TTC about Steeles West on October 29 about which I will report in a separate post). Opening date is 2016.
The big work that has to be done on Sheppard East is the grade separation at Agincourt. That is needed whether or not there is an LRT line, but the local businesses are in a snit and tar the LRT line with what is really a GO issue. Service is planned to begin in 2013.
The EAs are still in progress for Finch and Eglinton, and the latter has several major design issues that will come back for public review later this fall. Finch service is planned to begin in 2015. Eglinton will probably open in stages, given its length, from 2016 through 2019.
The SRT project is almost but not quite officially now an LRT project, and that triggers a redesign. The TTC wasted some time by focussing on an RT-centric design and public presentation, but they are now in the final stages of settling the details of the LRT project with Metrolinx (according to TTC’s Gary Webster at teh October 29 meeting). The SRT is planned to re-open after reconstruction and extension in 2016.
Other major projects include the work on various rail corridors (some now underway) and a major reconfiguration of Union Station that will begin in 2010, with a target completion of late 2014. This will provide over double the existing passenger handling capacity for both the subway and railway (GO) stations.
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Kevin says:
October 30, 2009 at 11:51 am
“I strongly believe that the Yonge corridor needs a subway and not an LRT system like some suggest on this site. Though LRT maybe more feasible in terms of cost it doesn’t address that type of commuting pattern that exist in that area. LRTs are meant for local trips and a majority of the people coming in from York Region will be using system for long haul trips. ..”
If the line is built like St. Clair or Spadina then I agree with you, but LRT is a range of operations and it does provide high speed limited stop service in many areas. The subway would not replace local bus service along Yonge Street and neither should LRT. The St. Louis LRT is 74 km long with 37 stations for an average spacing of 1 station every 2 km with a top speed of 90 km/h. This is a far cry for St. Clair or Spadina and to be honest is closer to commuter rail.
I agree that the subway should probably be extended to Steeles with three LRT lines coming into it through an underground connection. The length of the subway in York is 4.9 km with 4 stations (not counting Steeles) for an average spacing of 1.2 km. If you built the LRT with longer station spacings and higher average speed then it would be more useful than a subway. It would require a better form of signal priority to ensure that it always got a green at intersections without stops but this is possible. Two billion dollars would build a lot of high speed LRT, even if you put in some tunnels or grade separations. I wish that the SRT could be rebuilt quickly as an LRT to show people the other end of the LRT spectrum.
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I will look to confirm and get more details, but I have heard from senior staff at York Region’s Transportation Planning Department that another study that does include LRT is being looked at for Steeles-7 is coming.
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Karl / Steve
What’s wrong with falling back on this study?
http://www.vivanext.com/280
Steve: Nothing at all, although one has to ask how York Region managed to disavow a BRT/LRT study and jump on the bandwagon of a subway option that is neither affordable nor justified by the projected demand.
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I have misunderstood (oh the wonders of crowded conference calls). LRT is still not being studied. Nevermind.
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I also believe that the Yonge extension is ultimately the right way to go about things. If the subway gets to Highway 7 we eliminate a transfer for passengers headed to whatever gets done on Highway 7 (or the existing Viva for that matter, still not insignificant), and avoid a likely T shaped highway 7 LRT/BRT system (an awkward design that ends up hurting frequency or through traffic). I’d be perfectly willing to discuss LRT going north of 7, but looking at the network as a whole Richmond Hill Centre really does seem the best place with a mode break, with a connection to major east west infrastructure, GO service and an existing regional bus terminal.
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Didn’t the jump from BRT to Subway occur after businesses (and residents I take it) rallied against the natural progression to LRT fearing another St. Clair debacle? It seems they may have gathered enough support under the umbrella “Subway Now” to prod YRT to go ahead with the subway.
Funny, the chaos that reigned while Sheppard was under construction wasn’t considered. The sudden jump in property value and taxes afterward will be a nice reward. Of course since Yonge divides Vaughan from Markham, they’ll be splitting the costs.
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I think it was electioneering in Thornhill that did it in. Peter Kent’s platform is essentially “vote for me, the CPC is gonna win anyway and you won’t get anything from the gov’t if you don’t.” Which, as we now know, is true.
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I would like to take this opportunity to extend a big FU to all the businesses that worked to kill the Thornhill/Newtonbrook busway. If it weren’t for them, this busway would be completed by now providing much needed expanded transport capacity and speed between Toronto and the northern suburbs. Instead this is one of the most congested corridors in the Greater Toronto Area, and is only getting worse.
The propaganda that the Yonge Subway Now group was pushing claimed the subway construction would take only 5 years, this is not including the EA and dealing with operational issues. The absolute earliest this thing will be done is 2020, and this is assuming we get started on the EA and other concerns next year. Odds are it won’t be done until at least 2030, and this is assuming that construction isn’t suspended until a DLR is complete (in which case, 2050 is a more optimistic estimate, a far cry from the 5 years claimed…).
As for capacity at Bloor-Yonge, I predict it won’t be a concern. Most people who commute to this area already take transit at some point, whether they take the bus, GO train, or drive to the subway. I don’t believe there is going to be a mass exodus of new riders who used to drive all the way downtown and will now take the subway. Also, the Places to Grow plan will see new growth at Yonge and 7, Sheppard, and Eglinton which will divert even more trips from Bloor-Yonge station.
Finally, on a side note, I think Metrolinx needs to determine which proposed rapid transit routes will suit which need. If you look at the current map, they show express/commuter rail > subway > LRT/BRT. This is great for determining capacity, but there are many proposed LRT/BRTs in the region that will exceed the speeds of rail projects. I think they should draw up a map of travel design. Local rapid transit (999m and under – Bloor-Danforth subway, Transit City), intermediate rapid transit (1000m to 1999m – Spadina subway, Yonge subway through midtown), and regional rapid transit (more than 2km – GO express rail, Yonge subway through North Toronto). This way we can see which lines will meet which proposed purpose, and can plan their future commutes and developments based upon those plans.
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Ben, the EA for the Richmond Hill Subway Extension is done already. If all the planets align and all the trees along Yonge street bloom in $100 bills instead of leaves next year, the construction could be done for 2018 – TTC are attempting to progress the conceptual design now in anticipation of next year’s leafing out. 🙂
More likely that the timeline for completion is 2020, though, and it all comes down to funds. Peter Kent, ante up!
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Ben wrote about the Yonge North subway extension, “… and this is assuming we get started on the EA and other concerns next year”
The EA on this was completed several months ago.
From the VIVAnext website under media releases (May 4, 2009):
“A Statement of Completion was filed today with the Ontario Ministry of the Environment regarding the proposed Yonge subway extension, becoming the first project in Ontario to be evaluated using the streamlined, transit-specific environmental assessment process called the Transit Project Assessment Process.”
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Ben said
“Finally, on a side note, I think Metrolinx needs to determine which proposed rapid transit routes will suit which need. If you look at the current map, they show express/commuter rail > subway > LRT/BRT. This is great for determining capacity, but there are many proposed LRT/BRTs in the region that will exceed the speeds of rail projects. I think they should draw up a map of travel design. Local rapid transit (999m and under – Bloor-Danforth subway, Transit City), intermediate rapid transit (1000m to 1999m – Spadina subway, Yonge subway through midtown), and regional rapid transit (more than 2km – GO express rail, Yonge subway through North Toronto). This way we can see which lines will meet which proposed purpose, and can plan their future commutes and developments based upon those plans.”
Kevin says
See the problem with metrolinx is that when they came out with there RTP it was just a bunch of pretty lines on a map of the GTA. It didn’t address what kind of technology would be used for each line and why. That’s how we got into that whole debate regarding Eglinton (LRT VS ICTS). “what a waste of time”.
On the other hand one shouldn’t put all the blame on metrolinx, for example. When Toronto launched Transit City the plan was also very vague. All we knew was that all the pretty lines they drew up would have some sort of LRT functionality. Two years later the TTC is finding themselves in hole because they realized that at least two of their lines maybe forced underground even though ridership doesn’t warrants it with the exception of Don Mills.
Lastly I will like to address that like Metrolinx the TTC also failed to study each line in relation to the entire system because if they did they would have figured out that adding an Eglinton and Finch LRT to the system would have probably put the Yonge subway over capacity regardless if the Richmond hill subway was built.
Steve: The only underground section added to Transit City officially at this point is the one on Sheppard from Don Mills to Consumers. Eglinton was always going to be underground in the central section. The south end of Don Mills will have to go underground, but if it does, it should do so as subway, not LRT for reasons already discussed here at length.
Transit City was designed as a network, and the expectation was that it would do far more to serve trips that were not core-oriented than adding to subway demand. Metrolinx forecast much higher demands on the TC lines than the TTC did, and this was used to “justify” the so-called need for ICTS on Eglinton. In fact, Metrolinx has all but renounced their demand estimates certainly with respect to the Georgetown and Richmond Hill corridors in recent documents. Their model grossly overstated demand on the transit networks.
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Isn’t Jane supposed to be underground in the southern end (from either St.Clair or Lambton Ave)?
Steve: According to the info on the project website, the underground option starts at Wilson. Also, it’s still an option, not a recommendation.
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Has the double track thing started on the GO Barrie & Stouffville lines yet?
They received the money for it but construction has yet to start.
Steve: No.
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The project website for Jane may say Wilson, but the project displays from Eglinton Crosstown say Jane will be elevated at Eglinton, not underground. Maybe it’s a left-hand right-hand thing, but I’d be quite surprised if a Bloor-to-Wilson tunnel got funded.
Steve: At the rate things are going, I would be surprised if the Jane line itself got funded. Definitely, the projects don’t seem to talk to each other.
Look at the new Steeles West station design that shows absolutely no sign of the possible connections to the Jane LRT, among its many other follies.
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Didn’t the presentation specifically mention the space directly under Steeles Ave being reserved for an LRT at Steeles West?
Steve: Yes, although it’s unclear why this would need an underground station. A bit more than a sketch note to indicate how a surface or underground LRT station would fit into the overall design would have been nice. The station must be designed so that it won’t need an expensive retrofit.
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Karl Junkins
The project website for Jane may say Wilson, but the project displays from Eglinton Crosstown say Jane will be elevated at Eglinton, not underground. Maybe it’s a left-hand right-hand thing, but I’d be quite surprised if a Bloor-to-Wilson tunnel got funded.
Kevin says
I noticed that too when I went to the open house back in the summer
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