Thanks to an oversight on the security on the Metrolinx website, it was possible to view a report that was pulled from the agenda for this Friday’s meeting. (Thanks to one of my regular correspondents for spotting this.)
The report talks about integration of services between the TTC and other systems as well as a Metrolinx-GTAH pass. Because the report has been withdrawn it cannot be considered to be an authoritative Metrolinx statement, but it’s indicative of Metrolinx’ ham-fisted attitude to local systems including the TTC.
Updated: Comments on the report added.
Update 2: Tess Kalinowski writes about this issue in The Star.
Update 3: For the convenience of readers, the report which was pulled from the Metrolinx site is now available here.
John Barber’s scathing commentary on this report is online at the Globe and Mail.
This report proposes that Metrolinx embark on a takeover of fare integration and service co-ordination for cross-boundary operations. To that end, Queen’s Park would be asked to implement the necessary legislation to remove jurisdictional obstacles and to proclaim the section of the GTTA act empowering Metrolinx to implement a Farecard Division. The target for full GTAH-wide fare integration would be 2012.
Notable in many discussions of fare and service integration is the absence of GO Transit, even though the GTTA Act includes GO as part of a future integrated system. Nobody wants to mess with GO’s revenue stream, or to contribute “local” demand to what is seen as a regional service. Strangely, the same approach is not taken with respect to the TTC (see the Richmond Hill subway debate).
The report notes that between 1996 and 2006, transit trips to downtown Toronto from the 905 have increased while auto trips decreased. I venture that the vast majority of this effect is thanks to GO rail services, not to cross-boundary bus routes.
The two proposals in the report are that:
- Mississauga Transit’s 20 and 26 Burnhamthorpe routes, with some additional peak service, would replace the TTC’s 50 Burnhamthorpe bus, and
- Viva Orange would carry passengers in parallel with the TTC’s York U Express so that surplus Viva capacity could relieve overcrowding on the 196.
These two routes are the “low hanging fruit” of service integration because, for the most part, services between the 905 and 416 do not duplicate each other. Indeed, the TTC operates many routes across Steeles Avenue under contract to York Region.
Work has been underway at the staff level on some joint operation agreements, but much of this was on hold through late 2008 while labour negotiations were concluded by various agencies. However, “TTC senior management is not in favour of progressing any further”, and this currently precludes further consideration of joint operations. TTC’s concern lies with collective agreements about who has the right to carry which passengers.
I find it hard to understand how it is acceptable for York Region to contract with TTC to operate its buses (and its drivers) into YRT territory, but not for TTC to agree that Mississauga Transit (possibly under contract) could operate into Toronto. Whatever the impasse, a future issue for Metrolinx will be the inevitable consolidation of bargaining units among the regional agencies and the likely standardization to the highest common denominator of labour costs.
Other legal problems include provisions of the Public Vehicle Act and the City of Toronto Act, although neither of these is considered to be an impediment.
Although the two proposed corridors are easy pickings for the “save our tax dollars” crowd, the proposal is silent on the issue of fare integration. Metrolinx would like to take over administration of the GTA Weekly Pass, but this is hardly “integration”, only an administrative transfer. For cross-boundary riders, nothing would change at all, only the name on the pass (assuming that they bought one).
The biggest drawback, of course, is that the pass is useless on GO Transit because it is a completely separate fare structure. Yes, GO has “integrated” fares with the smaller 905 systems, but only as a way of reducing the demand for their parking lots. There is no TTC/GO integration or discount even though this is probably the single most important issue for GTAH fare policy.
One issue the Burnhamthorpe proposal appears to ignore is the effect of the new Kipling regional terminal on Mississauga’s route structure. Will any of their routes even come to Islington Station?
The report is rather vague about comparative costs of the current MT/TTC overlap versus a consolidated MT operation. Much calculation is to be done, some extra costs such as fare inspectors need to be added, and yet this calculation does not appear even pro forma in the report. The report notes that cost savings “should result”, but declines to show how.
Metrolinx makes one startling comment:
“It is not necessary to wait until the Presto fare card is fully implemented, as this is a fare policy issue and does not require a technological solution.”
Huzzah! Huzzah! We don’t need hundreds of millions in technology to integrate fares! But wait a moment, the issues on Burnhamthorpe and at York U are small change and don’t really address cross-boundary fare policy at all.
Metrolinx needs to get away from the chaff, the small operational issues, and concentrate on the big picture of revenue sources and sharing for the GTAH systems. We need to understand how new fare systems would affect the cost of commuting, and whether capital programs will consume so much of any new transit income that nothing will be left for service.
Steve Munro 
I hope that Metrolinx views the open door policy as a short term solution to the lnog term problem. Is there a chance that we could see transit operator mergers?
An obvious one would be to join TTC and GO transit, as GO’s primary objective is to get people into and out of Toronto (although they have expanded in recent years to provide more regional based transit).
Other big cities operate all transit systems under one umbrella – MTA (which also looks after swan boats and the like) and the Paris RER system…
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Make GO travel within the city of Toronto a TTC fare. In Paris, one can ride the RER trains (like express trains, but in this case a separate network) for the same fare as the Metro within city limits. This makes travel so much easier, because the RER serves places in Paris that the subway doesn’t, and covers some parts of the Metro network much faster.
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That is hilarious. Unfortunate that there aren’t any other juicy secret documents lying about for us to see.
I wonder why this was pulled though. The only guess i have is that they didn’t think they had the board support to move forward on any of it.
Steve: There is actually one collection of private information visible, but I won’t tell you where it is. Metrolinx has been advised of the situation. Now let’s see how long they take to fix it.
For an organization that was paranoid about leaks of its documents last year, this is an amusing and embarrassing state of affairs.
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The RER system in Paris is not a good comparison, as it was created and operated under the umbrella of RATP. Paris has a separate suburban commuter rail network that is more comparable to our GO system and it is (I believe to this day) operated by SNCF.
A better example is Trinity Rail Express in Texas. It is operated by Dallas’ DART and by Fort Worth’s The T. A DART fare allows you to transfer to a TRE train for free, provided you don’t take the train into The T’s territory and the same holds true the other way around. One may purchase a 2-zone fare to freely travel anywhere on all three systems, and this costs less than the sum of the two fares.
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Right now it would cost me $14 to go to Newmarket………
Scarborough-Finch Station/Finch Viva: $2.75
Finch Viva to Newmarket Viva: $4.25 (since I will be crossing two fare zones). I do whatever I have to do in Newmarket and then same price/route to come back.
Fare integration…….so it will mean I will pay ONE adult fare to go to Newmarket, that I will pay one fare at the begining of my route, or I will have it like Viva has and each zone/region is one extra dollar? ($2.75 Toronto, +$1 for first VIVA zone, +$1 for second ViVA zone)…please explain the fare integration in a simple manner.
by the way, I do have a metropass and I chose newmarket at random, what will happen to monthly pass holders of any of the systems if this fare integration happens?
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The report link is no longer working. I hope someone saved a copy.
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Steve do you know if this whole process will also address how fares are collected on surface routes? I ask because I think all-door boarding and reducing/eliminating the operator’s role in counting nickels is crucial to the future of transit. I remember reading a while back that all-door boarding would be a crucial feature in the efficiency and capacity of Transit City.
It might seem trivial, but just off the top of my head:
-HSR in Hamilton is front-door only, but a machine gives you change
-Burlington ditto, fare discount w/ GO
-Oakville?
-Vaughan?
-Mississauga?
-TTC is front door only with exact fare (grrr…), except on the 501
-VIVA is all-door boarding with mandatory prepaid fare
-GO Transit trains ditto, buses as HSR
The current arrangements are very frustrating and incompatible with an integrated fare; my ideal would be a carbon-copy of Oslo’s system (similar to most of Europe):
-the cheapest is a pass or prepaid card which you swipe once you board any door
-a prepaid single fare cost $4, again any door
-you always have the option of boarding at the front door and paying the driver cash (who will make change), but it costs $6
This means that the vast majority of riders to board as efficiently as possible, but you always have the option to just jump on a tram/bus if you see one coming, without fiddling with ticket machines. The drawback is the additional overhead for fare police and lost revenues from gatecrashers.
Steve: Yes, until the fare system moves to an all-door, self-service scheme, there will always be problems. Transit City (and the rest of the Toronto streetcar system) will go self-service once the new fleet arrives because the vehicles will not have a door layout that permits pay-as-you-enter fare collection and inspection. The TTC (and other operators) have to get their heads around a fundamentally different way of charging for transit use and inspecting fare media.
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Looks like Metrolinx has dealt with their “security” issue by requiring a username and password for the entire site. 🙂
Steve: Actually it is the “Agendas” subdirectory that has been locked down excessively. Other folders are still open, although you have to know how to get into them.
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Miroslav Glavic asked, “…so it will mean I will pay ONE adult fare to go to Newmarket, that I will pay one fare at the begining of my route, or I will have it like Viva has and each zone/region is one extra dollar? ($2.75 Toronto, +$1 for first VIVA zone, +$1 for second ViVA zone)… please explain the fare integration in a simple manner.”
What it will mean will depend on what they come up with, but I suspect we should be starting the rant for fare integration from now.
I have advocated basically the second scenario described above. While it would be all well and good to have a single flat fare for the entire GTAH, far more people than now will bitch and complain about how their short ride is subsidizing longer distance commuters. At the same time, those longer distance commuters are the ones you want to attract to transit. A reasonable zone system, with overlapping boundary areas, is the balance between these two. Oh yea, this would be combined with a time-expiry fare.
To use the example above, a common base fare would apply across the GTAH, possibly $3, but tickets would lower this price. Your transfer would be good to board ANY transit vehicle in the same zone as the fare was paid until its expiry time. If you take a vehicle that crosses entirely through a zone boundary, you would pay a $1 supplement to upgrade your transfer to cover both the zones (there may be a small extension of the expiry due to the wider coverage area, but that’s another issue). Cross another zone boundary, pay another $1 supplement.
In the above scenario, your fare from Toronto to Newmarket would be $5. I would include GO Transit in this, so the Toronto-Newmarket fare on GO would also be $5 and as long as there was time on your transfer or receipt, you could transfer to/from GO at either end or anywhere in between without paying any extra.
I mention “wide boundaries” between zones, and this means that a boundary would not be a street like Steeles. Instead, it might be from Finch to Centre Street. A base fare paid in Toronto would allow you to travel as far north as Centre without paying more, and a base fare paid in York Region Zone 1 would allow you to travel as far south as Finch without paying more, regardless of who operates the vehicle.
All of this would not preclude the TTC (or anyone else) from offering something like a “City Saver” fare. This could be a lower fare (maybe $2 or even less) with a shorter expiry (say, 60 minutes instead of 2 hours) that could not be upgraded for crossing into another zone.
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One problem I have with fare integration, is that people automatically associate it with a fare-by-distance system which, in my opinion will only hurt the people who cannot afford to live close to work, or near the downtown core.
The argument is that short distance riders are “subsidizing” long distance riders. How does this argument stand, when the majority of transit passengers use transit pass of some sort?
Am I missing something here?
We are implementing Presto just so the fare structure will be made more complex, just to ensure some riders pay less, and the majority pays more?
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Well well, looks like they have caught on to the idea of using the large empty space on VIVA Orange from York U to Downsview. It is unbelievable that they had yet to do that and instead make people jam onto the 196 instead. Since VIVA is suppose to have POP (Although i never see it on the Orange Line) all they will need to do is inspect TTC Fares in that case.
Metrolinx has to think big but its always good to start with a small experiment before going full scale. Like what they are doing with Presto!
In sept 2009 when the new bus only lanes come into effect it is vital that the viva orange buses are used so that it benefits both the TTC and the YRT and reduces environmental impact AND best of all….reduces waste of tax dollars! It is a win-win.
As for the burnhamthrope route, that is a bit more tricky and should be studied more before proceeding with the idea.
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Steve wrote, “I find it hard to understand how it is acceptable for York Region to contract with TTC to operate its buses (and its drivers) into YRT territory, but not for TTC to agree that Mississauga Transit (possibly under contract) could operate into Toronto.”
I find this hard to understand as well. Within the report, right at the top of page 8, it says, “At the Working Group level, TTC management advised that the City of Toronto Act gives Toronto (i.e. the TTC) the exclusive right to provide transit services within the City, or to allow another operator to provide the service.”
So, the law allows them to “allow another operator to provide the service”. The question is, who’s empire-building plans disallows this?
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I’m a bit ashamed to say it, but I’ve taken VIVA Orange from Downsview to York U numerous times. If anyone had asked I’d have claimed a “transfer to Purple” with, if needed, a “quick washroom break”
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Regarding the Viva Orange route, what is so hard about not requiring a YRT fare between Downsview and York University? Most, if not all riders, who would have otherwise taken the 196, will pay a TTC fare when entering or leaving Downsview Station, YRT should not lose any fares. Are they worried about the gophers living in Downsview Park getting a free trip to university?
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One of the issues is effectiveness of fare inspection. GO’s fare-evasion rate is only 1%. That’s pretty impressive for POP. Viva’s, however, I’m told is way higher. I’m not aware of any official published figures, but guestimates are as high as 10% (earning it the nickname Freeva). I’ve noticed that inspections are not frequent on Viva, even compared to GO Transit (which is considered infrequent by some of the less-frequent users).
Steve: GO has the advantage of having much better controlled access to stations as well as a captive audience for its inspectors for considerable periods. Local routes are quite another matter.
The big issue with self-service and fare inspection is to organize things so that the vast majority of riders have passes because that’s the best deal going. They need them for their subway trip (say) and the proportion of riders on surface routes who are freeloading goes down automatically. As long as your regular trips take you through a fare barrier on a regular basis somewhere, then you would need a pass.
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I see that going to the Metrolinx website now first gets a 404 message and then a request for a password and then, if you try to “X-out” that box you get:
Welcome to Metrolinx
Metrolinx.com website is undergoing maintenance. We regret the inconvenience.
The Metrolinx Board will be meeting as scheduled, on Friday, January 16 at 10 am. Metro Toronto Convention Centre 225 Front street West, Toronto North Building, Room 201 B, D &F
If you would like advance copies of the agenda and corresponding materials, please contact Andrea Crockford at 416-874-5948
andrea.crockford@metrolinx.com
You seem to have woken them up! :->
Steve: It has been amusing all day to watch various pieces of the site disappear as they fix the security. I am reminded of HAL’s singing in “2001”.
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I used to take the route 26 on regular basis seven days a week up until about a year ago. The service was generally reliable on all days but Sunday. On Sundays it was common to encounter real problems with headways. In the late afternoon and early evening demand was usually greater than the loads that even the articulated buses could handle. It was common for a thirty minute gap to become a 45 minute gap. At that point the bus would be full and it would operate with closed doors until it reached Mississauga. I doubt the situation has improved much.
I also find it more difficult to stand on Mississauga buses as the seats are twined on both sides of the aisle leaving a very narrow space. This increases the amount of front door bunching. I notice this isn’t the case on the TTC buses I take as they tend to have single seats along one side of the aisle. Route 50 riders will have to be prepared for this in exchange for more frequent service.
Of course it wasn’t that long ago that the TTC locked the route 26 and 20 out of Islington Station and we all had to line up on the sidewalk without the benefit of shelters. Not much fun when it was -20 C like today. A little leadership in those days and we might have seen fare consolidation on this little stretch of road back then.
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Steve, regarding GO’s fare evasion rate, that really only applies to trains. On buses, you’re supposed to show your fare boarding and leaving. Absolutely no one does when leaving, and when boarding with passes, most drivers only take a cursory look at it – enough to determine that the pass is for the correct month, not to check the zones (e.g. buying a cheap pass and then using outside of the paid zones) There is lots of room for abuse and no realistic way for GO to check evasion rates.
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The common complaint with fare intergration is the price of Go Transit. It is $10.40 from Barrie South to Union station. A flat fare for all systems, like $3 would kill the cost recovery ratio, but get people into transit. This is not rocket science.
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Well, the fare integration topic keeps getting bigger. I just received a copy of a Durham Region Finance and Administration Committee report to the effect that DRT staff are recommending elimination of the GO/DRT fare agreement with no offsetting DRT service enhancements. This means that instead of taking GO buses in Durham region for a DRT fare and being able to transfer between GO and DRT buses seamlessly, GO buses will become separately costed services. No reason is given, but it’s reasonable to assume budget pressures are at play.
So here we actually have a successful (DRT staff use that word repeatedly to describe it) example of fare integration, and the proposal is to eliminate it. The Finance Commissioner is insisting on seeing a full business case for the change, given its impact, and delaying the DRT 2009 service study/budget for a month to accommodate.
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I can’t imagine that anyone is going to buy that intercity transport of someone from Barrie to Toronto should cost them the same it costs me to take a streetcar 6 stops to get my groceries (or at least lug them home).
At some point there needs to be a zone system.
Now one could easily rig it so that 416 is Zone 1, and (north at least) up to Highway 7 is Zone 2, and that travel between Zone 1 and Zone 2 is the same as within Zone 1 and Zone 2.
Or even have South of Eglinton as Zone 1; Eglinton to Steeles as Zone 2, and Steeles to 7 as Zone 3, and make Zone 1 to Zone 2; Zone 2 to Zone, and within the same Zone as all the same fare.
What you need to do however, is stop charging people who are paying $10.40 commuting from Barrie to Toronto another $2.75 to take the subway from Union to St. George.
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Matthew Kemp Says:
“The common complaint with fare intergration is the price of Go Transit. It is $10.40 from Barrie South to Union station. A flat fare for all systems, like $3 would kill the cost recovery ratio, but get people into transit. This is not rocket science.”
Instead of using Union Station, just walk to Chinatown or any Chinese Malls in the GTA and use the FREE Casino Rama bus to Barrie or how about the FREE Niagara Fallview Casino bus to Niagara Falls. They even include free meal tickets! Gee, I wonder if they have rush hour service. 🙂
But seriously,… if Metrolinx (or whatever other provincial body the Province of Ontario is hiding behind) wants Toronto’s TTC onboard for some regional fare integration scheme,… err, I mean system,… then the Province of Ontario really should be providing continous funding to the TTC. The Province of Ontario under Mike Harris and his common sense revolution stopped funding local public transit like the TTC in the mid 90’s. Since then TTC only gets funding from farebox and Toronto taxpayers. And when I say the Province of Ontario should be providing continuous funding to the TTC, I mean funding every year for the on-going operations, maintenance and expansion of the TTC. Not those once in a blue moon multi-billion dollar projects to construct $300-$350 million/km subway into low density suburban York Region when much higher density urban areas of Toronto are in more desperate need of a subway (ie DRL).
BTW, if you’re as ticked off as I am that York Region want Metrolinx/Province of Ontario to fund the expansion of the $350 million/km Yonge Subway expansion to Richmond Hill Centre,… so it’s easier for York Region’s army of YRT and Viva buses to dump even more 905 passengers onto the already 100% capacity full Yonge subway line,.. then here’s your chance:
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Fare integration? We have it now in the 905 region. Each system accepts transfers from the adjoining system at normal transfer stops. Some routes even cross the boundary into the adjoining system and operate normally picking up and dropping off along the whole route.
Brampton and York region even has a unique shared route (77) running between Bramalea City Center and Finch subway station along highway 7. Brampton Transit and YRT each contribute a number of buses related to the distance travelled in the associated region.
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Gordon Keith Says:
“Fare integration? We have it now in the 905 region. Each system accepts transfers from the adjoining system at normal transfer stops. Some routes even cross the boundary into the adjoining system and operate normally picking up and dropping off along the whole route.”
TTC handles 85% of all public transit rides in the GTA. And most cross boundary transit use crosses into or out of Toronto’s TTC. TTC is really like a black-hole, … all other transit users gets sucked into TTC!
If the TTC participated in that type of fare integration, TTC would be losing lots of money. Think of it this way, 905er going to work in Toronto, pays for local 905 transit taking them to TTC, transfer and ride TTC without paying TTC to work. On way back home, this 905er pays TTC for taking them to local 905 transit, transfer and ride local 905 transit without paying to home. TTC would lose that one fare from this 905er going to work, which it now gets. Multiply that by the number of 905ers using public transit to get to work in Toronto. (If you go into any office in downtown Toronto and randomly ask people where they live, about half would tell you they live in 905) That’s a very big number.
How can the TTC recover such a big lost in revenue? The TTC isn’t a cash cow. Ride the TTC, it doesn’t take long to find things that should have been repaired long ago but hasn’t because the TTC can’t afford it (all those subway stations with water leaks, 20 year old TTC buses being pulled over for NOT being road worthy, by their own city cops!, etc, …) How can the TTC recover such a big lost in revenue? How much higher can the TTC raise their fare?. The province doesn’t fund TTC, … so TTC will have to recover the lost revenue from the City of Toronto, … and the City of Toronto will have to raise property tax even more. Thus, it’ll be the residents of Toronto, … Toronto tax payers who suffers. Why? To subsidize 905er who want to work in Toronto????
One can argue the same scenario happens between the various 905 transit systems with their fare integration. But in 905, only 16% of residents regularly uses their own transit system. Meaning in 905, the 16% who regularly uses their public transit system are subsidized by the 84% who don’t. In other words for every one 905er using 905 transit system there are 7.4 tax payers subsidizing that one regular transit user.
In Toronto, about 34% of all residents are regular TTC transit users. Meaning in Toronto, the 34% who regularly uses TTC are subsidized by the 66% who don’t. In other words, for every one Toronto resident using TTC, there are 2 tax payers subsidizing that one regular Toronto TTC user. Thus each Toronto tax payer carry a much heavier burden in term of their property tax subsidizing regular TTC user compared to their 905 counterparts.
Not only that, but the operating cost for the TTC is huge compared to their 905 counterparts. 905 transit only consist of buses which cost a few hundred thousand dollars each. TTC has buses, lots of buses, … plus streetcars, that cost at least a million dollar each, …. plus subways. Each subway car cost millions of dollars, … the new subway cars cost $3 million each, .. 6 cars in a subway train, that’s $18 million, … add the $2 million seventh car to the train, and you have $20 million for each subway train pulling into the subway station. To put it into 905 perspective, $20 million can by you about 40-50 buses.
In the GTA, there are about the same number of 416ers as there are 905ers. And each 416er Toronto property tax payer subsidize more transit user and pays for a much better quality of public transit system then their 905 counterparts. 905ers uses Toronto’s TTC much more often than Toronto residents uses 905 public transit system, … thus Toronto tax payers are already subsidizing 905ers who uses Toronto’s TTC, …. yet you want Toronto tax payers to subsidize your TTC ride even more???
Steve: Be careful here about mixing up capital and operating costs. The subsidy arrangements for new vehicles and for major repairs are different than for day-to-day operations and maintenance. The big difference Toronto has is that it has infrastructure that has to be kept in working condition. Also, people often think of GO fare integration in the 905 (bus-to-train services), but this is a special GO arrangement to save them the cost of building more parking, not an incentive for more transit use generally.
Gordon Keith Says:
“Brampton and York region even has a unique shared route (77) running between Bramalea City Center and Finch subway station along highway 7. Brampton Transit and YRT each contribute a number of buses related to the distance travelled in the associated region.”
It’s non-TTC routes like this that harm the TTC’s Yonge subway line. Why does this Brampton Transit/York Region Transit route 77 originating from the far west end Bramalea City Center, travel along Hwy 7 then Centre Street, then down a busy overly congested Yonge Street to Finch Subway station? And further clog up the 100% capacity full Yonge subway line??? This route passes Dufferin Street. Why not just cut this bus route short at Dufferin and have it travel down Dufferin Street to Downsview Station (which also has a regional bus terminal) on the 80% capacity Spadina subway line. “This is not rocket science.”
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Richmond Hill Go corridor AM peak departure times …
BUS 0540 TRAIN 0628 0658 0728 0758 BUS 0830 0835 0840 0910
Ok look at what we have here. With the exception of the three bus trips in the ten minute period, service is every half hour at best. This is a deterent to ride the GO in terms of the timetable if you wanna see for yourself.
Now let’s look at our pocketbook, the costs, assuming you are a GO monthly pass holder, or have a ten ride card you can ride a YRT bus to the station for 50 cents! Not to mention the YRT/GO Sticker for $20 a month. Let’s assume we are all monthly pass holders here.
It’s $162 even for a monthly pass from Richmond Hill Centre to Union, plus $20 for a sticker. Now it’s $182. Now add a Metropass, that’s another $109 for a grand total of $291 a month for unlimited travel to work. Or we could buy a GTA weekly pass for $47 a week, umlimited travel on YRT zone one, TTC, Brampton and Missisauga transit. And for $188 a month adding up all the weekly passes to a monthly price. Of course with the reliablity and frequent subway service people are going to flood the subway.
OK what about people not going to Union? What about Oriole and Leslie station, the connection? Oh wait there isn’t any. OK what about Old Cummer? Oh wait too close to the YRT border it isn’t worth the effort if it’s just at Finch. Fine examples of the crap that is going on with our system.
So in conclusion we do have options, but the options are not good enough for masses to use the GO Train at this time.
Steve: This is a classic example of people wanting what they know — a subway at one fare that runs all the time. The fact that we have engineered a fragmented system partly out of politics, partly out of an unwillingness to properly fund transit, partly out of sheer bureaucratic stupidity, creates a situation where the only “acceptable” fix is build more subway lines. Why is it OK for us to provide a huge subsidy for riders coming from a Richmond Hill subway station (both in fares and in capital investment), but not to make an investment in other network and service changes that would provide a greater range of benefits at a lower cost?
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I really don’t know why the government has to play politics with every transit expansion or initiative. I guarantee you that a Bloor-Danforth expansion to the Missisauga City Centre with a huge commuter lot there would bring massive ridership to the Bloor-Danforth line and the TTC since people taking the QEW from Oakville, Mississauga, Hamilton and other places would take this new service. It would also help to relieve some of the congestion on the Gardiner. But of course this won’t happen for another 50 years it seems because:
1) TTC wouldnt be able to handle this with its current infastructure especially at St. George.
2) No Politicians these days seem to have common sence in HOW TO RELIEVE CONGESTION which costs the economy billions every year.
3) We’re wasting money on what seems to be worthless subway expansions compared to one like this or the DRL.
And on the note of service integration this expansion could eliminate some Missisauge bus service that connects all the way into Toronto.
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Those who worry about ridership either (a) not justifying a subway into Richmond Hill or (b) overwhelming the Yonge subway (pick one – you can’t have both) are barking up the wrong tree, in my opinion.
Crossing municipal jurisdictional boundaries is _exactly_ what’s needed.
The “tiny perfect mayor,” when consulted at the time of amalgamation, said that either Toronto (and Metro as an umbrella for Etobicoke through Scarborough) should be left alone or it should encompass the south 905 as well… the last thing he felt should be done is exactly what *was* done, which was amalgamating only 416 into a single municipality.
The subway, by crossing those poorly chosen boundaries, is the starting point for creating proper regional governance, and will ultimately lead to the 905 properly sharing the burden of running a megacity, as they share in its benefits.
It’s a long road, but it’s one we all have to travel.
Steve: Problems with ridership overwhelming the subway do not stem from riders originating in Richmond Hill itself, but from existing and future riders in the catchment area of the subway system. More service will be needed just to handle projected growth over the coming decade whether we build the Richmond Hill line or not. At some point, the existing line is “full”, or can only have capacity expanded at considerable expense.
The issue for me is the provision of alternative capacity both for Richmond Hill (via frequent GO service) and for passengers from the BD line wishing to get to the core area (the Downtown Relief Line). Moreover, we can get improved GO service to Richmond Hill faster than we can build a subway line. The real political issue is fare integration — it costs far more to get downtown on GO than on the TTC, and that’s why people want the subway.
How much will it cost us to provide all of that capacity on the TTC system? When will GO fares (and regional fares in general) be consolidated so that long-haul trips are not discouaged from using the mode best suited to them, commuter rail?
Metrolinx’ projected demand for the subway extension and for improved GO service shows that the majority of riders will use GO. Demand for subway service north of Steeles will be respectable, but for something less monumental than a subway line. Not improving GO would guarantee lots of riders for the subway, but at great cost and with the loss of reserve capacity further south.
The TTC chooses to claim that ridership on the extended Yonge line won’t be a problem, but the model they cite presumes the existence of both the GO and DRL services to drain demand off of the Yonge line itself. You can’t have it both ways. Build it all and the model is valid. Build one line, and you overwhelm the subway.
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One problem with self-service fares is crowding. In Bordeaux, the recently opened LRT network has been quickly overwhelmed in terms of ridership, acting like a subway of sorts. The B Line to Pessac operates at least at 2-3 minute intervals, and their lengthy LRVs are packed beyond anything I’ve ever seen in Toronto upon leaving the City Centre, for the majority of the route. This is such that people who would like to pay their fare are simply unable to reach the machine that stamps your ticket. Not a big problem, but it does exist.
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Matthew Kemp Says:
“Richmond Hill Go corridor AM peak departure times …
BUS 0540 TRAIN 0628 0658 0728 0758 BUS 0830 0835 0840 0910”
But Richmond Hill is NOT Richmond Hill Centre,…Huh? Richmond Hill Centre is really Richmond Hill south,… WTF! (at least according to the locals) Confused? The Richmond Hill GO station is at Major Mackenzie Drive between Yonge Street and Bayview Avenue. What YRT and Viva are calling Richmond Hill Centre (now) is Hwy 7 and Yonge Street where they have the Langstaff Go Station,… here’s the time for Langstaff GO Station
BUS 05:52 TRAIN 06:33 07:03 07:33 08:03 BUS 08:30 08:35 08:55 09:00 09:10
Why focus on the Langstaff GO Station, because this is where the proposed Yonge Subway extension from Finch to Hwy 7 will end,… at Richmond Hill Centre station. Other than that,… same argument you had, just that there’s an extra 08:55 bus here.
“It’s $162 even for a monthly pass from Richmond Hill Centre to Union, plus $20 for a sticker. Now it’s $182. Now add a Metropass, that’s another $109 for a grand total of $291 a month for unlimited travel to work. Or we could buy a GTA weekly pass for $47 a week, unlimited travel on YRT zone one, TTC, Brampton and Missisauga transit. And for $188 a month adding up all the weekly passes to a monthly price. Of course with the reliability and frequent subway service people are going to flood the subway.”
Huh? Reliability? Are we talking about the same Yonge Subway line??? Which chokes up at least once a week, usually during rush hour,… well, reliability as compared to GO train, fine.
If you go to the Finch Station Regional Bus Terminal, you’ll see most of the York Region buses coming in are Viva,… there’s a few local YRT (Bayview 91, John 2, Bathurst 88 & 23). YRT are mainly the local buses that stop at very stop,… Viva is the express service. Most local YRT buses connect to a Viva express bus along Hwy 7 or Yonge Street. Viva Purple services Hwy 7,… Viva Blue comes straight down Yonge from Newmarket, Viva Pink comes Hwy 7 East and goes to Finch station. These 3 Viva routes intersect at Richmond Hill Centre where the Langstaff GO Station is.
So by the time these York Region commuters get to Richmond Hill Centre (See NOTE below, this station will be the busiest on the extension by far, it’ll handle 65% of all daily boardings along the new 6 station Yonge Subway extension and only 6.3% are walk-in,.. that means 93.7% are transferring from a bus to get to Richmond Hill Centre station!) at Hwy 7 & Yonge Street, where the Langstaff GO Station is,….They already have paid for their YRT and Viva (monthly pass, sticker, whatever doesn’t matter),… but here they have a choice.
-Option 1- Wait for one of 3 half hour GO Train to Unions Station ONLY! in Toronto with $162 monthly pass
-Option 2- Wait 4-6 minutes for a Viva Pink or Blue if you’re on the Viva Purple otherwise you’re already on the Viva Pink/Blue which is just making a stop here so continue to ride Viva express bus down to Finch Station,..at no extra cost since it’s in the same zone! Once at Finch, just go to the platform where at least one subway train is always present and waiting since it’s a terminal station! Of course, you’ll need the $109 TTC monthly metropass,.. to go ANYWHERE in Toronto!,… anytime that month! Great to use TTC metropass on Lunch break to Chinatown or Little Italy, shopping in Yorkville or Yorkdale after work, etc,… And get to SAVE $53 each month!!!!
Also note, with GO train, you’ll also need to take the GO train from Union Station back home,.. GO trains leave at a fix time,.. you miss the last one,… good luck getting home. How often does something come up at work and you need to stay late???
Which option would you pick? “This is not rocket science.”
Steve jumps in: By the time the Richmond Hill subway opens, GO service will be very substantially improved to Richmond Hill and beyond. Frequent (at least every 15 minutes), bidirectional, all-day service should be in place. The comparison will be completely different than it is today.
Hmmm,… so the real question is,… how much extra would a York Region transit user be willing to pay for going to Finch Station? (Insert evil laughter here!) Surely, it’s worth more than the $53 they save using TTC metropass over GO train monthly pass.
NOTE: York Region staff provided TTC/City staff with the following preliminary 2031 forecasts:
Daily Boardings – Station
113,500 – Richmond Hill Centre
+13,700 – Langstaff/Longbridge
++6,800 – Royal Orchard
++8,100 – Clark
+23,900 – Steeles
++9,200 – Cummer/Drewry
===========================
175,200 TOTAL
NOTE: These are not opening day forecast,… these are for 2031, 15 years after opening day.
Thus 64.8% of all daily boardings along the 6 station Yonge Subway extension will happen at Richmond Hill Centre station,… and 7.8% of all daily boardings along the 6 station Yonge Subway extension will happen at Langstaff/Longbridge station with 2,000 parking spot!,.. which is just on the other side of Hwy 7 from Richmond Hill Centre,… easily serviced by the Langstaff GO Station. Folks, that’s 72.6% of all daily boardings along the 6 station Yonge Subway extension will happen at the Langstaff GO Station.
18.9% of all daily boardings along the 6 station Yonge Subway extension will happen at Steeles and Cummer/Drewry stations which are both IN Toronto and already serviced by TTC.
8.5% of all daily boardings along the 6 station Yonge Subway extension will happen at Royal Orchard and Clark Station.
Ok,… 72.6% of all daily boardings along the 6 station Yonge Subway extension will happen at the Richmond Hill Centre station and Langstaff/Longbridge station,.. an area already service by the Langstaff GO train Station. 18.9% of all daily boardings along the 6 station Yonge Subway extension will happen at Steeles and Cummer/Drewry stations which are both IN Toronto and already serviced by TTC. So they’re actually thinking about spending $4-5 Billion (including conditions TTC are adding) of tax payer money to build a 6.8 km Yonge subway extension to Richmond Hill Centre to basically provide train service to the 14,900 daily boardings at Clark and Royal Orchard. That works out to $335,570 for each of those passengers at Clark and Royal Orchard. Hey, that’s enough to buy a house!,.. for each one of those passengers! So this is how they’re thinking of spending OUR Tax money??? WTF!
BTW, why is Steeles station with 28 bay bus terminal projected to be so low at 23,900? I mean even North York City Centre station already has 26,070 now and it doesn’t even have a bus route,… it’s all walk-in!
Matthew Kemp Says:
“OK what about people not going to Union? What about Oriole and Leslie station, the connection? Oh wait there isn’t any.”
At the Oriole GO Station, it’s better to crawl underneath the fence and go to the IKEA store to catch the IKEA free shuttle bus to Leslie Station. Wow,… I’m starting to sound like a cheapskate,.. first with FREE Casino buses to Barrie and Niagara Falls, now free IKEA shuttle bus service.
Vic Says:
“I really don’t know why the government has to play politics with every transit expansion or initiative. I guarantee you that a Bloor-Danforth expansion to the Missisauga City Centre with a huge commuter lot there would bring massive ridership to the Bloor-Danforth line and the TTC since people taking the QEW from Oakville, Mississauga, Hamilton and other places would take this new service. It would also help to relieve some of the congestion on the Gardiner.”
Well, I would argue that TTC Subway expansion to Mississauga City Centre will NEVER ever happen because that area is ALREADY serviced by GO Train (Dixie, Cooksville & Erindale with shuttle bus to Mississauga City Centre)! Ditto for all the rest of Mississauga, Oakville, Hamilton, Brampton, etc,… And clearly regional transit from these areas are the responsibility of our (Government of Ontario) GO transit and NOT the TTC. And how dare anyone from Mississauga think about getting a Subway extension when they’re NOT already getting one costing $2.8 Billion going to it’s local big box stores! And expansion of the Bloor-Danforth line which is operating at NO WHERE NEAR full capacity makes it impossible! The TTC WOULD NOT need Billions and Billions of dollars increase capacity at its current station along the Bloor-Danforth line. And the Bloor-Yonge station WOULD NOT need a $500 million renovation. What are you nuts? Add more passengers to a subway line that can actually handle more passengers??? It’s UNSPEAKABLE.
But we MUST,… and I can’t begin to emphasize how much we MUST,… we MUST ABSOLUTELY expand the already 100% FULL CAPACITY OVER-CONGESTED Yonge Subway line to Richmond Hill Centre because Richmond Hill Centre is ALREADY serviced by GO Train!!! That’s right they’re ALREADY SERVICED BY GO TRAIN!!! And servicing regional transit is the responsibility of the TTC and NOT GO Transit!!! That’s right, regional transit is the responsibility of the TTC,…TTC doesn’t stand for Toronto Transit Commission, it stands for 905 Transit Commission!!! And since York Region is ALREADY GETTING a $2.8 Billion Spadina subway extension to service it’s local big box stores at Vaughan Costco Centre, that ONLY shows how DESPERATELY York Regions needs another multi-billion dollar subway extension! This time to a GO Station in Richmond Hill Centre,… Don’t worry in a couple of years, York Region will also DEMAND ANOTHER multi-BILLION dollar TTC Subway extension of the non-existent DRL to a drive-thru Tim Hortons in Markham! (Hey, what do you expect, Big Box stores plaza, GO train stations and Drive-Thru Tim Hortons,.. that’s all they have in York Region!) And if after spending $4-5 BILLION of Taxpayers money on the 6.8 km Yonge subway extension from Finch Station to Richmond Hill Centre, we see that we really can’t cram any more passengers onto the already 100% FULL CAPACITY OVER-CONGESTED Yonge Subway line,… when we’ll do the logical thing and trash all 50 of our brand new $20 million subway trains (6 x $3million per subway car + $2 million for 7th subway car) and replace them with old volkswagen beetles and paint clown faces onto all passengers because I know those old volkswagen beetles can hold an endless number of clowns,…. I’ve seen it with my own eyes!!!
Ok,… now that I’ve shown my foolish idiotic logic,.. where do I apply to be a politician???? 🙂
PSC Says:
“The “tiny perfect mayor,” when consulted at the time of amalgamation, said that either Toronto (and Metro as an umbrella for Etobicoke through Scarborough) should be left alone or it should encompass the south 905 as well… the last thing he felt should be done is exactly what *was* done, which was amalgamating only 416 into a single municipality.”
Well,… this “tiny perfect mayor” also had a tiny perfect little 14 year long love affair on the side that produced 2 sons,… so his words shouldn’t be taken as if he’s a GOD. Though,… we do love him in North York.
Steve: The “tiny perfect mayor” was Toronto’s David Crombie who didn’t have anything on the side. You are thinking of the former mega-mayor of North York who had fears about cannibals.
Note to Raymond: This is the last of your epics I will post. This is my blog, after all.
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Re: extending Bloor subway to Missisauga City Centre?
Connecting the Toronto and Mississauga downtowns with a rapid transit line is a good idea. But Bloor subway is not the best way to do that, because the trips will take too long. The trip from MCC to St George will take about 35 min, add a few minutes to change trains and 10 minutes to ride south, and it is close to 50 min.
In contrast, the schedule time for the GO trip from Cooksville (about same distance as MCC) to Union is 27 – 30 minutes. If the Milton GO line is electrified, diverted through MCC using a relatively short tunnel, and gets a frequent all-day service, it will create a superior connection between the two downtowns. At the same time, a stop at Kipling would connect the express GO route to the Bloor subway.
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Why does Richmond Hill want a subway? It’s $4.85 from Langstaff to Union, $6.00 from RHC to Union.
Langstaff-Union using GO is 37 minutes, RHC-Union should be 50 minutes (taking into consideration that RHC-Finch to be about 15 minutes).
If you use Richmond Hill GO Station instead then it is $4.95 (same price since RHG is still in Zone 1).
Also GO Transit trains are more comfortable than TTC subway trains.
Steve: I am convinced that they want the subway because it’s a known quantity. The push for a subway line started a few years before GO and Metrolinx got around to publishing upgrading proposals for Richmond Hill commuter rail service, and even then they’re dragging their feet.
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Steve said: “Moreover, we can get improved GO service to Richmond Hill faster than we can build a subway line. The real political issue is fare integration — it costs far more to get downtown on GO than on the TTC, and that’s why people want the subway.”
I’m not sure that’s entirely true about people wanting cheaper fares; although Viva fares are about half of GO fares, a trip to Union is cost-neutral for a rider whether by bus/subway or GO train. People from the 905 will expect a second zone for the subway (or some sort of distance-based fare) rather than the TTC one-fare zone being expanded. The issue for GO trains is that they only serve the College-and-south destinations. If you need to get to St Clair on a regular basis, GO is nigh on useless. (It wouldn’t have to be, but that depends on Oriole, I guess.)
I’m also guessing that twin-tracking the train through the valley, since I’d expect the tracks as they exist are inside floodplain areas (and any expanded embankment will further encroach on TRCA-governed lands) will *not* be a slam dunk. I’d be interested to hear someone’s estimate on design and construction time for a rail project of this length (including the grade separation) to give us a way to compare apples to apples here.
Steve also said: “The TTC chooses to claim that ridership on the extended Yonge line won’t be a problem, but the model they cite presumes the existence of both the GO and DRL services to drain demand off of the Yonge line itself. You can’t have it both ways. Build it all and the model is valid. Build one line, and you overwhelm the subway.”
I’m not convinced the TTC is saying something so different from what you’re saying. Let’s face it, if Transit City isn’t expected to deliver a bunch more people to the subway lines, there wouldn’t be much justification for LRT, would there? North-south transit capacity is a significant problem, but it seems to be that we’re contemplating a whole bunch more east-west lines, too far north to be a help…
Thanks for the (unintentional) laugh, Raymond. I can’t imagine anyone other than Mel calling Mel “perfect.”
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Whether one agrees or disagrees with Raymond, you’ve got to love his facetiousness. At the risk of sounding more like an advocate of extending the Yonge line than I really am, I’m wondering why in the name of Frederick Gardiner this proposed extension isn’t being projected to go right into downtown Richmond Hill. If two way all day GO service ever actually comes to pass I sure as hell hope that it drains off at least a fair amount of riders from the subway, extension or not.
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David Aldinger asked, “I’m wondering why in the name of Frederick Gardiner this proposed extension isn’t being projected to go right into downtown Richmond Hill.”
At the risk of sounding apologetic for Richmond Hill’s council, I would suggest it was NOT them who were rallying for this subway extension. Though they are in support of it, it was Markham politicians Jim Jones and Frank Scarpitti who have been the cheerleaders for this extension (which I call the “Jones Express” http://lrt.daxack.ca/blog/?p=52 ). Don’t forget, all the stations between Steeles and RHC fall in the part of Thornhill that is part of Markham.
Getting back to the issue of fare integration, I have posted one proposal for integration at http://lrt.daxack.ca/FareSystems/index.html – It tries to strike a balance between one flat fare and fare by distance and includes GO in the mix. It is a work in progress, so comments and criticisms are welcome.
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