You have a tradition of keeping at least some of your streetcar system going through the decades (unlike here, where the whole system was unceremoniously ripped out), and a semi-grid type system like this is somewhat different than your current streetcars, but not so different that people can’t envision its workings or alien to your city’s culture. Good for you, Torontonians. And good for you that now there’s a formal, official proposal that’s put forth by the TTC that people can start debating.

That said, and acknowleding the relative transit bargain the Transit City program represents, I still believe your subway system is incomplete. I know this has been debunked before, but I still believe the best bang for your buck subway wise would be two giant loop lines: Connecting the Yonge Street line to the University/Spadina line along the “top” at the northern end. This could still be done even after the extension to Vaughan Corporate Center were to be completed. The Other loop would be to connect the Shepherd subway in the east to the Scarborough RT (at the least, really the SRT should be replaced with a subway), and continue the Shepherd subway to the west, then swing it down to the South to connect it with the Bloor/Danforth subway. I know this would cost billions, but I think this should be the long term plan, and just construct a piece of it at a time, as the money could be gathered. It might take 20 years, 30 years, even 50 years, but that’s the big backbone of your transit system, I feel.

The LRT lines in this proposal would expand the system greatly as far as increased ridership, so I would advocate building those first. But subway extensions should not be abandoned entirely. I’ll be visiting eventually to check out some of these facilities first hand.

Since I’m on the subject of subways, my biggest concern is the Sheppard line. If we’re now only going to give it a an LRT extension, then why did we make it a subway line in the first place? Although it’s now a done deal, the money for the VCC subway extension was misplaced, in my opinion. To me, Toronto should be the TTC’s priority, not York Region. That money would’ve been better spent on expanding the Sheppard line east.

Steve: Neither the Sheppard nor Spadina subway extensions make sense if one looks at potential loads and LRT capabilities. However, both of them had incredible political support, especially the Spadina line. “Value for money” is a phrase politicians use when talking about other people’s pet projects, not their own. As far as TTC priorities, don’t forget that the cost of the line north of Steeles Avenue will be borne by the Ottawa, Queen’s Park and York Region. The TTC is just designing and operating it. The money to build that extension is not available as “Toronto” transit funding.

Maybe some tracks from Broadview over Danforth to Pape or on Pape north from Gerrard could make getting cars from the Russell carhouse easier (and possibly serve as a Downtown Relief Line precursor).

I’ve already commented on here about my concerns with the reduction in service that is likely to happen on the streetcar lines if the replacement fleet is ALRV-sized or larger. The opportunity for differing sizes of streetcars is huge, and your description of “a family of vehicles of different sizes” and Councillor Vaughan’s comments are welcome relief from talk of all long vehicles and the reduction of fleet size and service frequency that would result.

As an example, a recent discussion group item pointed to a low-floor streetcar from the Czech Republic, the VarioLF, that would be comparable to a PCC or CLRV – fewer seats but more standing room. (www.ckdpragoimex.cz/en/l.php?id=2) But they also have a longer 30-metre articulated version, plus 10-metre trailer units. These would offer service flexibility and interoperability of components. And certainly these can’t be the only examples of traditionally-sized low-floor streetcars on the market. (Though it helps that the fleet in Brno has a similar livery to the TTC bus fleet.)

Some negative comments have complained about using pictures of CLRVs when discussing the LRT plans. (I got a screenshot of the Star website using the SRT as an example, before it was quickly replaced.) To me, that’s not the critical point – indeed, the CLRVs were originally intended to be capable of providing LRT-type service. What is critical is showing how the LRT service would actually operate, and what measures would make it more than just a streetcar ROW. If anything, that’s where showing CLRVs as examples is a problem, because Torontonians have little experience with them providing higher-speed service and only think of them being stuck on King or Queen.

The first PR step is done: showing the extent of network that could be built and how wide an area of the city could benefit. The next PR step should be emphasizing how LRT service – not vehicles – is different in other cities and how the service would operate.

Steve: That is already the plan for the new streetcar fleet and the TTC is working on the design implications this has for the existing overhead structures.

What do you think of ending Jane at Steeles West? Wouldn’t it be better to do so at Finch West to allow better interconnection/interoperation with the FWLRT?

I’m a bit worried about the effect on the Danforth line of Malvern LRT, SRTMk2 and DMLRT all pouring in… it’s pretty busy at peak right now.

Steve: Yes, I did have a hand in this scheme along with many others. It’s helpful to have someone outside the official bureaucracy who can talk about this sort of proposal on the political and technical levels at the same time, and that’s a role I have played a lot recently.

Yes, there may be a problem with capacity on the existing subway, but that also exist if we just build subway extensions. Long term, there is the option of bringing the Don Mills line into downtown as a relief to the Danforth line.

In my opinion, the city should cancel the Subway Extension. Use the money to built the LRT. As for York Students, integrate fares with GO Transit and give them a Busway to Downsview. That way, the city doesn’t need to beg for another billion and half.

For selling the idea, show Torontians pictures and videos of Calgary’s C-Train. Toronto is probably closer to Calgary than a European City.
Calgary’s LRT system is the most successful in North America. Our LRT provides Subway like service, but in an LRT format. I am certain that would make LRT easier to sell.

Steve – do you have a guesstimate on how long the TTC and tenders will take to finish the design of the new streetcar? Hopefully soon, as I think, as Cynthia’s comments prove, that the TTC from here on out should a) never use the word “streetcar” when pushing this proposal and b) as the great pictures provided show, they should never use a picture of a CLRV in their marketing.

One more thing – I’d like some clarification on what “transit priority” means to the TTC. Is it more and extended greens for the LRT line? Or is it more like something you see in Calgary where cross-traffic’s light automatically goes red as the LRT approaches the intersection?

Steve: The TTC plans to put out tenders for new streetcars this fall. Plans are afoot to get something to Toronto as soon as possible so that people can actually see what sort of vehicle we might be looking at.

As for transit priority, yes, this is a huge problem and it lies with the staff in the City’s Works Department who refuse to make changes to the existing design. We need to get some spine in Council to direct the staff to look at what other cities are doing and implement real priority here.

Not too bad, except for one small thing…

IT LOOKS LIKE MORE OF AN EXTENSION TO THE SPADINA/HARBOURFRONT/ST. CLAIR ROW RATHER THAN A TRUE LRT NETWORK!!!

Now, maybe they are just setting it up like this to make it easier for people to grasp, or maybe they are going to impprove the current ROW network so that it is more like true LRT. But knowing the TTC…

Also, does it strike you as odd that the Jane route ends at Bloor and does not go all the way to the Harbourfront “extension”???

Steve: The map (available with other materials at http://www.transitcity.ca) was actually done by the folks who run spacing.ca.

(2) The Jane line should really go to Dundas West Station via the Weston rail corridor as I discussed in a post written after this comment was submitted.

(btw Steve, nice wordpress template!)

Steve: Thank you! It’s more or less out of the box “Green Track”, but I liked the picture. The type size is tweaked a bit to my taste, but the choice of font is from the original.

Steve: I think the TTC more or less bludgeoned the media with pictures of LRT everywhere today, and we can expect more in the future. An important point will be to show suburban folks what LRT running in the middle of arterial roads looks like. Pictures of crowded central cities in Europe with lots of pedestrians are nice, but they are not the suburban Toronto experience.

As I said in my first post, I believe that the Spadina extension is a done deal, but would really like that to be changed. Then I got home Thursday night and read an editorial in the Richmond Hill Liberal on the VCC subway deal (www.yorkregion.com/yr/yr4/YR_News/Columns/story/3911213p-4522733c.html).

In a nutshell, David Teetzel suggests that this will fall apart. First, the money from the provincial government came at a time when money from the feds was a pipe dream. In order for the provincial money to be there, the municipal governments had to agree on their share of their one-third of the funding. Toronto and York Region reluctantly agreed to a 60/40 funding scheme and signed to it just in time, but neither was happy with it. We recently saw the federal portion come to light, and all the others suddenly realized that they would have to actually come up with the money.

Teetzel suggests this will fall apart at the municipal level, probably after both the federal and provincial levels get an election benefit out of the whole deal. Aside from suggesting that Toronto councillors, who have trouble taking a photo with each other, will not be able to negociate with York councillors over a subway line that will not benefit people who can vote for them, he feels that issues within York Region can throw a wrench into the works.

This should be very interesting.

http:// http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_lrt_dal.htm

http:// http://www.lightrailnow.org/home.htm

An update of the earlier Toronto Star web article (basically, what is in today’s printed newspaper) had the following content added based on an interview with rookie Councillor Adam Vaughan:

It could also present an opportunity to consider buying two distinct types of streetcars – compact ones for downtown routes, and larger ones in more suburban areas, said Councillor Adam Vaughan.

“You’ve got two very different streetscapes.”

With narrow streets and high demand for frequent service, the TTC should consider running smaller streetcars that can more easily negotiate turns and slide into underground stations, he said.

For suburban routes, bigger and roomier vehicles might be useful on less frequent but reliably timed routes, he suggested.

Historically, the TTC has been reluctant to buy differing vehicles, Vaughan said.

“It’s always one size fits all. But this could be the time to change the thinking.”

Are different-sized vehicles a sacrilige in your view? Even more, what if the ‘suburban’ stock also used a standard gauge to save money? What kind of impact this have in your view upon the operation of a city-wide LRT network?

Steve: It’s possible we might have a family of vehicles of different sizes, but the underlying components such as electrical systems should be common. I believe that for the size of fleet we are looking at, the issue of TTC gauge is a non-issue. Nobody ever complains about building subway cars for us that are not standard gauge.

Going back to LRT pictures in the newspapers, it’s as if European examples are non existent and are not worth the mention.

Steve: Please have a look at the examples used by the TTC in the Transit City announcement.

It’s maddening seeing all those pictures in the newspapers with the ARLV and CRLV tanks or the RT as the equivalent to what editors think will be in place with the new LRT lines.

When I hear LRT – this is what I have in mind (and with the right of way):

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/trams/Strasbourg/Citadis/Strasbourg_CTS_2008_A_20060725.jpg Strasbourg, France

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Mannheim/NGT8/mvg705_bk0604290164.jpg Mannheim to Heidelberg, Germany

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/nl/trams/Rotterdam/2000/line_23/RTD0187.jpg Rotterdam, Netherlands

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/nl/trams/Amsterdam/Combino/line_5/ASD0130.jpg Amsterdam

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/trams/Paris/T3/Paris-T3-02.jpg Paris

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Hannover/2000/030317018.jpg Hanover, Germany

Now THERE’s your $2 billion for the LRT network. I’m very surprised that the federal Tories, being the penny pinchers they usually are, actually decided to fund this fiasco in the first place.

Now is your chance, Flaherty, right the wrong you made earlier.

And I’m serious. It’ll keep the “government-should-stop-mispending-stuff” people happy.

Steve: He who builds the first route picks the track gauge. When I see YRT actually putting together a funding proposal for an LRT line, I will start to worry about what gauge it should be built to.

Steve: I thought so, but just wanted to be sure. Thanks for the clarification.

Shawn Micallef’s Public Dublin article, fourth photo down… and speaking of sexy check out the curves of the Montreal subway tunnel just above this article.

P.S. to Cynthia… Toronto Streecars are really heavy HRV’s… not light LRV’s—it’s a misnomer. They ride like tanks and really pound the pavement/trackbed. I never knew the difference till I asked Steve (and I used to work for the TTC!. Steve can tell you more. If it looks low, sleek and sexy it’s a “new” LRV…. if it looks old, squat and high… it’s a TTC streetcar… no comparison!

How can we stand by and watch $2 billion of our own money be misspent?

Steve: I feel an evil thought coming on here: Do you mean the $2-billion that might be spent on LRT, or the $2.5-billion that’s going to build the Spadina VCC subway?

Steve: That St. Clair line to the airport was something that crept into the Mayor’s platform because the proposals were not vetted by a knowledgeable transit advocate (mentioning no names here). Yes, if we go to the airport, it should be on Eglinton coming east at least for a first cut to the Spadina Subway. The Weston rail corridor would also make a really nice way to get an Eglinton West branch down to Dundas West Station, but until the Blue 22 scheme is given the burial it so richly deserves, that option isn’t available.

As for Sheppard, this is what many riders coming from Scarborough would have to do: Sheppard bus to Sheppard LRT, LRT to Sheppard subway, followed most likely by another subway or bus. As Mimmo famously said a few weeks ago, may as well call it the Toronto Transfer Commision. Why not take the Sheppard subway to VP where a convenient transfer to the LRT could be built, much like Spadina? A Don Mills transfer strikes me as being as annoying as transferring from B-D at Kennedy to the SRT.

Steve: The Sheppard LRT line should go all the way out Sheppard to Morningside Heights. If you want to get from northeast Scarborough to STC, transfer to the extended RT line at Sheppard and Markham Road (assuming that’s the stop).

That said, I have not thought Bathurst St. fully through in terms of density and so forth: it seems like a good idea to me, but I am wondering what wiser souls have to say (or have already said) about it.

Steve: I think that there is more to be said for relieving the Yonge line from the east with a Don Mills route. To the west, we already intercept riders with the Spadina Subway.

One thing I’d like to ask you Steve: in moderate to high density areas, how well does LRT perform compared to the car??? Even with frequent stops along Bloor/Danforth, it still is faster (usually) than driving. But with a surface LRT, having to deal with cross traffic and pedestrians crossing, I fear that LRT passengers will regularly see cars passing them and ask themselves why they are not driving themselves. Unfortunately, when browsing YouTube for LRT I mostly came up with videos of LRTs on their own private corridors (ie: Scarborough RT) rather than LRTs through the middle of major streets.

Even IF the car is faster than these new LRT routes, this is still a much needed breakthrough for public transit in Toronto.

Steve: Some of the routes that are likely on the table will have high-speed sections, while others will run in the middle of the road. In the latter case, transit priority at traffic signals is vital and non-negotiable. Also, in the future as demand (and road traffic) builds up, the difference between LRT on its own lane and private cars will become much more evident. We need to put the capacity and the right-of-way in place now before total gridlock rather than wringing our hands about our inaction afterwards.